Ep 103: The Pastor Skeptic

00:00When a kid comes out, there's a 15% chance that they'll try to kill themselves.

00:00When a kid comes out, there's a 15% chance that they'll try to kill themselves.

00:07If they're rejected on religious grounds by their family, that doubles.

00:07If they're rejected on religious grounds by their family, that doubles.

00:12Why don't we set the bar at only sharing beliefs that don't make them want to kill them?

00:12Why don't we set the bar at only sharing beliefs that don't make them want to kill them?

00:18Right, it's a low bar, but I feel like we can clear it, right?

00:18Right, it's a low bar, but I feel like we can clear it, right?

00:23Hey everybody, I'm Dan McClellan.

00:23Hey everybody, I'm Dan McClellan.

00:28And I'm Dan Beecher.

00:28And I'm Dan Beecher.

00:29And you're listening to the Data Over Dogma podcast, where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion,

00:29And you're listening to the Data Over Dogma podcast, where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion,

00:36and we combat the spread of misinformation about the same.

00:36and we combat the spread of misinformation about the same.

00:40And you may not be able to hear it, but those of you watching this on YouTube will see that we're in a slightly different setting.

00:40And you may not be able to hear it, but those of you watching this on YouTube will see that we're in a slightly different setting.

00:48Yeah, this is a whole new configuration for us.

00:48Yeah, this is a whole new configuration for us.

00:51We are all in the same room, we are here, you and I Dan are here together, and we have a special guest.

00:51We are all in the same room, we are here, you and I Dan are here together, and we have a special guest.

00:58Would you like to introduce our guest?

00:58Would you like to introduce our guest?

01:00Our guest is Jeremy, and I suppose I should have asked you at some point about your last name.

01:00Our guest is Jeremy, and I suppose I should have asked you at some point about your last name.

01:08Steel.

01:08Steel.

01:09No, I knew that.

01:09No, I knew that.

01:10Okay, I'm sorry.

01:10Okay, I'm sorry.

01:11The worst with names, but Jeremy is on social media, on TikTok, on YouTube, on Instagram as well.

01:11The worst with names, but Jeremy is on social media, on TikTok, on YouTube, on Instagram as well.

01:20The thing that sticks in my head about your introduction of yourself in each video is that you are a deep skeptic, and a pastor.

01:20The thing that sticks in my head about your introduction of yourself in each video is that you are a deep skeptic, and a pastor.

01:30And I would like to hear more about what deep skeptic means to you, and then introduce yourself a little more thoroughly for the kids.

01:30And I would like to hear more about what deep skeptic means to you, and then introduce yourself a little more thoroughly for the kids.

01:40Yeah, for sure.

01:40Yeah, for sure.

01:41Deep skeptic.

01:41Deep skeptic.

01:42I mean, there's some people who are like skeptical, and I don't know about that.

01:42I mean, there's some people who are like skeptical, and I don't know about that.

01:50For me, what it means when I say I'm a deep skeptic is that I just am not going to accept something until I have some solid data.

01:50For me, what it means when I say I'm a deep skeptic is that I just am not going to accept something until I have some solid data.

02:01And if I don't have solid data, we'll leave it open.

02:01And if I don't have solid data, we'll leave it open.

02:05Right? And I think when I say deep skeptic, I also mean that I'm never going to close down really anything I believe.

02:05Right? And I think when I say deep skeptic, I also mean that I'm never going to close down really anything I believe.

02:20And so that's it.

02:20And so that's it.

02:21It's 100%.

02:21It's 100%.

02:22It's the law, whatever.

02:22It's the law, whatever.

02:24I'm always open to new data.

02:24I'm always open to new data.

02:26And the more data I am mass about something, the less likely it is, I'm going to sort of let go of that.

02:26And the more data I am mass about something, the less likely it is, I'm going to sort of let go of that.

02:36And specifically, we're talking about skeptical, even of things like the question of whether or not there's a God or any of those sorts.

02:36And specifically, we're talking about skeptical, even of things like the question of whether or not there's a God or any of those sorts.

02:46Which is not the most traditional position for a pastor to take.

02:46Which is not the most traditional position for a pastor to take.

02:51You're not wrong, and people regularly remind me of that online.

02:51You're not wrong, and people regularly remind me of that online.

02:56Yeah, I'm sure they do.

02:56Yeah, I'm sure they do.

02:57Because, you know, I think the question about the existence of God, it's a hard thing to, I mean, like any data, like anything you get is just completely subjective.

02:57Because, you know, I think the question about the existence of God, it's a hard thing to, I mean, like any data, like anything you get is just completely subjective.

03:10Very circumstances. And so like, there are days when I'm like, yeah, I think God exists, but it's all experiential. Like, it's like you experience a sense of transcendence or whatever it is that people sort of want to tag to God or the universe or whatever they call it.

03:10Very circumstances. And so like, there are days when I'm like, yeah, I think God exists, but it's all experiential. Like, it's like you experience a sense of transcendence or whatever it is that people sort of want to tag to God or the universe or whatever they call it.

03:28But it's always, it's always boils down to experience, right?

03:28But it's always, it's always boils down to experience, right?

03:34You can't measure that yet.

03:34You can't measure that yet.

03:38So I go back and forth.

03:38So I go back and forth.

03:41So, and that's, I think, for me, there's this really great book by a researcher named Dr. Lisa Miller.

03:41So, and that's, I think, for me, there's this really great book by a researcher named Dr. Lisa Miller.

03:50She's Columbia, and I think she worked with Yale or Princeton, all the high belief schools are the same in my head.

03:50She's Columbia, and I think she worked with Yale or Princeton, all the high belief schools are the same in my head.

03:57But she's fancy.

03:57But she's fancy.

03:58Yeah, she's real fancy and super smart.

03:58Yeah, she's real fancy and super smart.

04:00And basically, they were, they were studying religion, religion, religious beliefs, religious practices and religious experience.

04:00And basically, they were, they were studying religion, religion, religious beliefs, religious practices and religious experience.

04:10And at the end of the day, it didn't really matter which religion that they were studying.

04:10And at the end of the day, it didn't really matter which religion that they were studying.

04:17They all had an overall positive effect on people's mental health, well-being and all sorts of metrics for like a good life.

04:17They all had an overall positive effect on people's mental health, well-being and all sorts of metrics for like a good life.

04:30So like they had an easier ability to cope with stress and more sense of connection.

04:30So like they had an easier ability to cope with stress and more sense of connection.

04:39So I think what's really interesting is like statistically deep religious experiences and not the ones that people are traumatized and ruined by.

04:39So I think what's really interesting is like statistically deep religious experiences and not the ones that people are traumatized and ruined by.

04:49But like deep religious experiences had represented a statistically significant protective effect against recurring of major depressive disorder.

04:49But like deep religious experiences had represented a statistically significant protective effect against recurring of major depressive disorder.

05:01And when they were doing the FMRI scans, and people were talking about reliving the religious belief moments, the same part of the brain that is stimulated by an SSRI was the one that was lighting up on the FMRI.

05:01And when they were doing the FMRI scans, and people were talking about reliving the religious belief moments, the same part of the brain that is stimulated by an SSRI was the one that was lighting up on the FMRI.

05:16So I say all that to say, of course, I mean, you've got like being a pastor, I consider that role, at least for me, to be helping people find spiritual beliefs and practices that work for them.

05:16So I say all that to say, of course, I mean, you've got like being a pastor, I consider that role, at least for me, to be helping people find spiritual beliefs and practices that work for them.

05:33They help them become the best version of themselves, find a purpose greater themselves, and maybe experience transcendence without necessarily tying it to a specific tradition.

05:33They help them become the best version of themselves, find a purpose greater themselves, and maybe experience transcendence without necessarily tying it to a specific tradition.

05:44But making it more about the experience without the boundaries of a given community or faith tradition.

05:44But making it more about the experience without the boundaries of a given community or faith tradition.

05:51Right. And that's partially because of the population I work with too.

05:51Right. And that's partially because of the population I work with too.

05:57Talk a little about that.

05:57Talk a little about that.

05:59Yeah.

05:59Yeah.

06:00But I should say at the end of the day, if I die, God doesn't exist.

06:00But I should say at the end of the day, if I die, God doesn't exist.

06:04I feel like I've spent my life on something that has actually helped people.

06:04I feel like I've spent my life on something that has actually helped people.

06:08Even if it turned out the whole enterprise of religion was a lie.

06:08Even if it turned out the whole enterprise of religion was a lie.

06:14So that's how I like make peace with the like, who knows about God, but the religious stuff might help people.

06:14So that's how I like make peace with the like, who knows about God, but the religious stuff might help people.

06:19Yeah, but the community that I work with, it's sort of grows out of my TikTok and other social media platforms.

06:19Yeah, but the community that I work with, it's sort of grows out of my TikTok and other social media platforms.

06:29It's people that have been deeply hurt and traumatized by religion, but are wanting to like be a spiritual person, have spiritual beliefs and practices.

06:29It's people that have been deeply hurt and traumatized by religion, but are wanting to like be a spiritual person, have spiritual beliefs and practices.

06:42And so almost all of them, the religion, the religious stream that traumatized them was Christianity.

06:42And so almost all of them, the religion, the religious stream that traumatized them was Christianity.

06:51And so I like to say, I'm a practitioner of Christianity, like that's what I'm trained in.

06:51And so I like to say, I'm a practitioner of Christianity, like that's what I'm trained in.

06:59I don't like to call myself a Christian.

06:59I don't like to call myself a Christian.

07:02But so can you wait, can you sort of, can we dig into that a little bit, that distinction that you're making there?

07:02But so can you wait, can you sort of, can we dig into that a little bit, that distinction that you're making there?

07:12Yeah, it's, I live in DC, okay, and I'm not sure that that isn't right.

07:12Yeah, it's, I live in DC, okay, and I'm not sure that that isn't right.

07:21I'm also part of the queer community.

07:21I'm also part of the queer community.

07:23And when you say Christian, it means something in both of those spaces.

07:23And when you say Christian, it means something in both of those spaces.

07:30Something more than just like I'm a believer in Jesus or like, you know, I follow a certain set of tenets.

07:30Something more than just like I'm a believer in Jesus or like, you know, I follow a certain set of tenets.

07:36It has a greater sort of sociological meaning.

07:36It has a greater sort of sociological meaning.

07:39Yeah, and what it means does not describe me, right?

07:39Yeah, and what it means does not describe me, right?

07:43Right.

07:43Right.

07:44It almost rejects you.

07:44It almost rejects you.

07:45It is, I am in many ways, the opposite of the kind of contemporary cultural definition that like comes up in people's mind when you say Christian, especially when it's somebody that's like not involved in Christianity.

07:45It is, I am in many ways, the opposite of the kind of contemporary cultural definition that like comes up in people's mind when you say Christian, especially when it's somebody that's like not involved in Christianity.

08:01And so that's not me.

08:01And so that's not me.

08:05But as far as like a religious tradition and my experience, that's what I know the most.

08:05But as far as like a religious tradition and my experience, that's what I know the most.

08:12That's what I went to graduate school to study.

08:12That's what I went to graduate school to study.

08:14And, and so I practice that.

08:14And, and so I practice that.

08:21But man, I, I don't want you to think of me as part of the community with all of those people.

08:21But man, I, I don't want you to think of me as part of the community with all of those people.

08:30Yeah, you don't, you don't feel in community with Mike Johnson.

08:30Yeah, you don't, you don't feel in community with Mike Johnson.

08:35No.

08:35No.

08:36And definitely not.

08:36And definitely not.

08:37Yeah.

08:37Yeah.

08:38In fact, like, oh my God.

08:38In fact, like, oh my God.

08:39When he talked about having a biblical worldview and like, if you want to know what he thinks, read the Bible, I'm like, have you read the Bible?

08:39When he talked about having a biblical worldview and like, if you want to know what he thinks, read the Bible, I'm like, have you read the Bible?

08:47No, no he is not.

08:47No, no he is not.

08:49So like, you're, you're really good with like, you know, you know, just enough beating of a slave.

08:49So like, you're, you're really good with like, you know, you know, just enough beating of a slave.

08:55Right.

08:55Right.

08:56Right.

08:56Right.

08:57Just, just the right amount.

08:57Just, just the right amount.

08:58The correct amount of beat.

08:58The correct amount of beat.

08:59Right.

08:59Right.

09:00Right.

09:00Right.

09:01Yeah.

09:01Yeah.

09:02So yeah, I, that's, and so I wish I had, I wish I had something that didn't use the word Christian, really.

09:02So yeah, I, that's, and so I wish I had, I wish I had something that didn't use the word Christian, really.

09:08But all the like stuff, I like, I grew up in the evangelical deep south in the 80s and 90s.

09:08But all the like stuff, I like, I grew up in the evangelical deep south in the 80s and 90s.

09:16And like, follower of Christ or Christ, all of it seems like cheesy and not, not it.

09:16And like, follower of Christ or Christ, all of it seems like cheesy and not, not it.

09:24That's the best thing I've come up with.

09:24That's the best thing I've come up with.

09:25I've asked people in TikTok to help me out.

09:25I've asked people in TikTok to help me out.

09:27Nobody's got a better.

09:27Nobody's got a better.

09:28Nobody's got something that feels like it resonates more with me.

09:28Nobody's got something that feels like it resonates more with me.

09:31Yeah.

09:31Yeah.

09:32You, you put the ish in Christ, almost got him an, on a spit take on that one.

09:32You, you put the ish in Christ, almost got him an, on a spit take on that one.

09:37Yeah.

09:37Yeah.

09:38Almost got the spit take.

09:38Almost got the spit take.

09:39It's like the, who is the politician, George Santos, that like he said, his parents were Jewish and somebody confronted.

09:39It's like the, who is the politician, George Santos, that like he said, his parents were Jewish and somebody confronted.

09:44I mean, he's like, they're not Jewish.

09:44I mean, he's like, they're not Jewish.

09:46And he's like, I meant Jew-ish.

09:46And he's like, I meant Jew-ish.

09:47Yeah.

09:47Yeah.

09:48Classic.

09:48Classic.

09:49Oh my gosh.

09:49Oh my gosh.

09:50So, so talk to us about, because you are an ordained pastor.

09:50So, so talk to us about, because you are an ordained pastor.

09:57Yeah.

09:57Yeah.

09:58Talk to us about your path from presumably very conservative Christianity in the south to a,

09:58Talk to us about your path from presumably very conservative Christianity in the south to a,

10:10you know, queer positive.

10:10you know, queer positive.

10:13Pastor.

10:13Pastor.

10:14Yeah.

10:14Yeah.

10:15In DC.

10:15In DC.

10:16Like, what, what did that road look like?

10:16Like, what, what did that road look like?

10:19Yeah.

10:19Yeah.

10:20Yeah.

10:20Yeah.

10:21Uh, you know, it was interesting because like, when I say I'm a deep skeptic, like I've always been that, but I'm also old.

10:21Uh, you know, it was interesting because like, when I say I'm a deep skeptic, like I've always been that, but I'm also old.

10:30And so when I grew up in that sort of evangelical deep south conservative religious culture, um, I, you only have access to the information that is around you.

10:30And so when I grew up in that sort of evangelical deep south conservative religious culture, um, I, you only have access to the information that is around you.

10:46Or in the, I had, it was a smaller town. It was this tiny library that is the books that are selected by the people in that town.

10:46Or in the, I had, it was a smaller town. It was this tiny library that is the books that are selected by the people in that town.

10:54And so, you know, when I asked about like evolution and science, the people who had graduate degrees that were in my life were creation scientists like that.

10:54And so, you know, when I asked about like evolution and science, the people who had graduate degrees that were in my life were creation scientists like that.

11:06Oh, wow.

11:06Oh, wow.

11:07You know, bullshit.

11:07You know, bullshit.

11:08Are we allowed to cuss on this podcast?

11:08Are we allowed to cuss on this podcast?

11:09You are.

11:09You are.

11:10Okay, cool. Like, and, um, and so like the pseudoscience stuff, it's like, I would receive this stuff and I would read it and I would, you know, believe it until I, you know, got a little bit further along.

11:10Okay, cool. Like, and, um, and so like the pseudoscience stuff, it's like, I would receive this stuff and I would read it and I would, you know, believe it until I, you know, got a little bit further along.

11:25And there were some people that would push back against it.

11:25And there were some people that would push back against it.

11:29Right.

11:29Right.

11:30And, um, and so that it took a long time really to start to unwind a lot of that.

11:30And, um, and so that it took a long time really to start to unwind a lot of that.

11:39Because, um, because I had all of this data that I've been given from what I was told was reputable sources.

11:39Because, um, because I had all of this data that I've been given from what I was told was reputable sources.

11:49It wasn't.

11:49It wasn't.

11:51Right.

11:51Right.

11:52And, um, and, you know, the other thing, um, growing up as somebody who's not straight in that culture is that.

11:52And, um, and, you know, the other thing, um, growing up as somebody who's not straight in that culture is that.

12:04Um, it really wasn't an option to claim an identity other than, um, straight, cisgender, you know, all of that.

12:04Um, it really wasn't an option to claim an identity other than, um, straight, cisgender, you know, all of that.

12:14Right.

12:14Right.

12:15Um, anything outside of that norm was a temptation was something you were struggling with.

12:15Um, anything outside of that norm was a temptation was something you were struggling with.

12:21And that, that gets deep.

12:21And that, that gets deep.

12:25Right.

12:25Right.

12:26Oh, I mean, like, I'll never, I'll never forget this is, um, when I was in high school, there was this woman.

12:26Oh, I mean, like, I'll never, I'll never forget this is, um, when I was in high school, there was this woman.

12:36We'll call her Pam.

12:36We'll call her Pam.

12:38Okay.

12:38Okay.

12:39Um, that sounds right.

12:39Um, that sounds right.

12:40And Miss Pam had a prayer gathering in her house for high school students.

12:40And Miss Pam had a prayer gathering in her house for high school students.

12:47And, um, but it was like, it was very charismatic.

12:47And, um, but it was like, it was very charismatic.

12:51Right.

12:51Right.

12:52It was probably the gayest thing I had ever been a part of because we would come in.

12:52It was probably the gayest thing I had ever been a part of because we would come in.

12:58She would put on, um, uh, vineyard music and we would have tambourines and streamers.

12:58She would put on, um, uh, vineyard music and we would have tambourines and streamers.

13:06We would dance around and, and, uh, and people would fall out and speak in tongues.

13:06We would dance around and, and, uh, and people would fall out and speak in tongues.

13:15And there was this guy there.

13:15And there was this guy there.

13:17Um, it was there every week like me, like every time.

13:17Um, it was there every week like me, like every time.

13:22And then all of a sudden he wasn't there for a couple of weeks.

13:22And then all of a sudden he wasn't there for a couple of weeks.

13:25And I asked Miss Jan or Miss Pam.

13:25And I asked Miss Jan or Miss Pam.

13:27I said, Miss Pam, uh, what happened to John?

13:27I said, Miss Pam, uh, what happened to John?

13:32And she like looked around, like, did anybody hear him?

13:32And she like looked around, like, did anybody hear him?

13:36As that pulls me into the kitchen.

13:36As that pulls me into the kitchen.

13:38And she was like, well, uh, a couple of weeks ago, John confessed to me that he was struggling with homosexuality.

13:38And she was like, well, uh, a couple of weeks ago, John confessed to me that he was struggling with homosexuality.

13:46So.

13:46So.

13:47And then she left.

13:47And then she left.

13:49So.

13:49So.

13:50And I was like, so like the, like, evangelical CIA came and got him.

13:50And I was like, so like the, like, evangelical CIA came and got him.

13:57Like, like, it's not clear.

13:57Like, like, it's not clear.

14:00What was clear though is that that was something that was so bad.

14:00What was clear though is that that was something that was so bad.

14:07That it meant that you couldn't be part of the community anymore.

14:07That it meant that you couldn't be part of the community anymore.

14:12Right.

14:12Right.

14:13And either you had to be that, your client, uh, confidentiality, I don't know.

14:13And either you had to be that, your client, uh, confidentiality, I don't know.

14:18Right?

14:18Right?

14:19Just sharing this with.

14:19Just sharing this with.

14:20Come on, Sam.

14:20Come on, Sam.

14:21I know.

14:21I know.

14:22Just go sharing that.

14:22Just go sharing that.

14:23And, uh, that, yeah, either you had to, you, you should be sure it's so shamed that you should never share your face again or that you were not welcome.

14:23And, uh, that, yeah, either you had to, you, you should be sure it's so shamed that you should never share your face again or that you were not welcome.

14:30And I had been in the church world enough to know that both of those things.

14:30And I had been in the church world enough to know that both of those things.

14:34He didn't say I am an, a practicing homosexual who said I'm struggling with this and that in and of itself.

14:34He didn't say I am an, a practicing homosexual who said I'm struggling with this and that in and of itself.

14:39Yeah.

14:39Yeah.

14:40She considered to be sinful or she can.

14:40She considered to be sinful or she can.

14:43I mean, I don't know.

14:43I mean, I don't know.

14:44Cause she said, so like I was thrilled to know.

14:44Cause she said, so like I was thrilled to know.

14:47And as a high schooler, you know, like, I made up all of this stuff.

14:47And as a high schooler, you know, like, I made up all of this stuff.

14:52So we murdered him.

14:52So we murdered him.

14:54Right.

14:54Right.

14:55So you will never see him again.

14:55So you will never see him again.

14:57And I actually, I didn't ever see him again.

14:57And I actually, I didn't ever see him again.

15:00We went to different schools and, um, and so, uh, you know, that, that kind of messaging.

15:00We went to different schools and, um, and so, uh, you know, that, that kind of messaging.

15:07And it's not, it's not just the, the like actual homophobic rhetoric.

15:07And it's not, it's not just the, the like actual homophobic rhetoric.

15:13It's the way it's enforced, the way it's, uh, you internalize that.

15:13It's the way it's enforced, the way it's, uh, you internalize that.

15:19Yeah.

15:19Yeah.

15:20Internalized homophobia.

15:20Internalized homophobia.

15:21And you go years and decades with this idea that like, oh, wow, this is, this is a problem that I, like, oh, if I stare at somebody of the same gender,

15:21And you go years and decades with this idea that like, oh, wow, this is, this is a problem that I, like, oh, if I stare at somebody of the same gender,

15:36I've got to stop and I've got to stare at somebody of a different gender at the same amount of time.

15:36I've got to stop and I've got to stare at somebody of a different gender at the same amount of time.

15:40To like, because then I didn't, then I'm fine.

15:40To like, because then I didn't, then I'm fine.

15:42In case somebody caught you and then they could be like, oh, okay.

15:42In case somebody caught you and then they could be like, oh, okay.

15:45Okay.

15:45Okay.

15:46Because a negative plus a positive.

15:46Because a negative plus a positive.

15:47Right.

15:47Right.

15:48Cancel each other out.

15:48Cancel each other out.

15:49Yeah.

15:49Yeah.

15:50And so even long after I was years after I was, I sort of made this transition and what really helped me made the logical transition was going to a seminary that was really,

15:50And so even long after I was years after I was, I sort of made this transition and what really helped me made the logical transition was going to a seminary that was really,

16:05kind of Wesleyan evangelical seminary.

16:05kind of Wesleyan evangelical seminary.

16:08They gave me the tools to like, bad, the real tools to study stuff.

16:08They gave me the tools to like, bad, the real tools to study stuff.

16:12And I was like, oh, oh, everything you've been saying so far as bullshit.

16:12And I was like, oh, oh, everything you've been saying so far as bullshit.

16:17Cool.

16:17Cool.

16:18But even after I had made that transition in my theology and all of that, I still have this internalized and it took therapy and all kinds of things for me to come to grips with, um, with who I was.

16:18But even after I had made that transition in my theology and all of that, I still have this internalized and it took therapy and all kinds of things for me to come to grips with, um, with who I was.

16:34And, um, and go through that sort of internal process.

16:34And, um, and go through that sort of internal process.

16:40Um, and that was probably the final piece, right?

16:40Um, and that was probably the final piece, right?

16:46Um, was to be able to say to myself the things that I've been saying to other people for years and years.

16:46Um, was to be able to say to myself the things that I've been saying to other people for years and years.

16:55I guess part of my question is when you are, you know, when you've been part of a community that has associated itself so strongly with this is the Christian position.

16:55I guess part of my question is when you are, you know, when you've been part of a community that has associated itself so strongly with this is the Christian position.

17:08Right.

17:08Right.

17:09Right.

17:09Right.

17:10And you've been rejected or at least a part of you that's sort of integral to who you are has been so roundly rejected by that in the name of this Christianity.

17:10And you've been rejected or at least a part of you that's sort of integral to who you are has been so roundly rejected by that in the name of this Christianity.

17:21Right.

17:21Right.

17:22What did it feel like to then pursue.

17:22What did it feel like to then pursue.

17:27Pastorhood or to pursue to go to seminary.

17:27Pastorhood or to pursue to go to seminary.

17:33With that hanging over everything.

17:33With that hanging over everything.

17:36And see, this is the interesting thing.

17:36And see, this is the interesting thing.

17:38Like that internalized homophobia and evangelical dogmatism.

17:38Like that internalized homophobia and evangelical dogmatism.

17:46You don't until until you do, you just feel like, I don't know.

17:46You don't until until you do, you just feel like, I don't know.

17:53My friend has the sin of gossip and they're dealing with that.

17:53My friend has the sin of gossip and they're dealing with that.

17:56I have this other sin and I'm dealing with that.

17:56I have this other sin and I'm dealing with that.

17:59And it's, it's not like your identity is being rejected.

17:59And it's, it's not like your identity is being rejected.

18:04Okay.

18:04Okay.

18:05Right.

18:05It's that like, oh, I have this thing, this problem.

18:05It's that like, oh, I have this thing, this problem.

18:05Right.

18:08And like, and as now when it starts to break open, then you are feeling that.

18:08And like, and as now when it starts to break open, then you are feeling that.

18:15But for me, that was after seminary.

18:15But for me, that was after seminary.

18:17Okay.

18:17Okay.

18:18And, you know, and I had a, you know, I went to some camp where in the deep south, where when I was a teenager, lots of manipulation, lots of like, you know, altar call stuff.

18:18And, you know, and I had a, you know, I went to some camp where in the deep south, where when I was a teenager, lots of manipulation, lots of like, you know, altar call stuff.

18:37And decided when I was in the sixth grade, I was going to be a pastor and like never let go of that.

18:37And decided when I was in the sixth grade, I was going to be a pastor and like never let go of that.

18:43And so it was, it was a foregone conclusion at some point that I was going to go to seminary and do the thing.

18:43And so it was, it was a foregone conclusion at some point that I was going to go to seminary and do the thing.

18:50Well, I'm sure you got like a lot of positive feedback.

18:50Well, I'm sure you got like a lot of positive feedback.

18:53Oh, yeah.

18:53Oh, yeah.

18:54For sure.

18:54For sure.

18:55You say, I'm going to be a pastor and everybody's like, oh, yay.

18:55You say, I'm going to be a pastor and everybody's like, oh, yay.

18:58Jeremy's going to turn out great.

18:58Jeremy's going to turn out great.

19:00We're going to be so proud.

19:00We're going to be so proud.

19:02And now they all think I'm going to hell.

19:02And now they all think I'm going to hell.

19:05Yeah.

19:05Yeah.

19:11Well, and I think your story raises something interesting.

19:11Well, and I think your story raises something interesting.

19:14A lot of folks, like I don't compute for a lot of folks who have grown up Christian.

19:14A lot of folks, like I don't compute for a lot of folks who have grown up Christian.

19:19And you pointed to something that is central to the perseverance of Christian traditions is that when someone is raised within that framework, and that is the foundation of their identity.

19:19And you pointed to something that is central to the perseverance of Christian traditions is that when someone is raised within that framework, and that is the foundation of their identity.

19:33And that is, you know, the lens through which they know and experience and see the world throughout their entire childhood.

19:33And that is, you know, the lens through which they know and experience and see the world throughout their entire childhood.

19:39And it's all they know.

19:39And it's all they know.

19:41That's not something that you can just flip a switch and it goes away.

19:41That's not something that you can just flip a switch and it goes away.

19:45Like, even if you decide, okay, this is, this is me.

19:45Like, even if you decide, okay, this is, this is me.

19:48I'm not changing.

19:48I'm not changing.

19:49I'm not going to feel bad about this anymore.

19:49I'm not going to feel bad about this anymore.

19:51That's your worldview is still built, structured upon that.

19:51That's your worldview is still built, structured upon that.

19:55And so it influences you for the rest of your life.

19:55And so it influences you for the rest of your life.

19:58And, and I think that is what leads a lot of people to look at me and be like, well, he's just lying about something because there's no way on earth.

19:58And, and I think that is what leads a lot of people to look at me and be like, well, he's just lying about something because there's no way on earth.

20:08That, that this all computes, but I came into religion as an adult as a 20 year old and brought my rather secular upbringing.

20:08That, that this all computes, but I came into religion as an adult as a 20 year old and brought my rather secular upbringing.

20:18Because I didn't, I grew up in Gaithersburg.

20:18Because I didn't, I grew up in Gaithersburg.

20:21I was, I went to Trivilla Elementary School, which is, you know, we could, we took field trips down to, well, over to Antietam down to the mall and to all the museums and everything into the Potomac River that I thought was the Potomac for the longest time.

20:21I was, I went to Trivilla Elementary School, which is, you know, we could, we took field trips down to, well, over to Antietam down to the mall and to all the museums and everything into the Potomac River that I thought was the Potomac for the longest time.

20:37But like, I was definitely a Southern pronunciation that word, the Potomac.

20:37But like, I was definitely a Southern pronunciation that word, the Potomac.

20:45Well, I think the first time I saw it was like an elementary school and there was like a worksheet and we were learning about indigenous peoples.

20:45Well, I think the first time I saw it was like an elementary school and there was like a worksheet and we were learning about indigenous peoples.

20:52And it was like the Potomac tribe.

20:52And it was like the Potomac tribe.

20:54I was like, oh, that makes sense.

20:54I was like, oh, that makes sense.

20:56I didn't recognize this as the name of the river that was down the street.

20:56I didn't recognize this as the name of the river that was down the street.

20:59Right.

20:59Right.

21:00I was like the Potomac tribe.

21:00I was like the Potomac tribe.

21:01That sounds very, that sounds very indigenous.

21:01That sounds very, that sounds very indigenous.

21:03But the, I was, I was raised to believe in evolution and raised to believe in all this stuff.

21:03But the, I was, I was raised to believe in evolution and raised to believe in all this stuff.

21:11And my education was, was very different.

21:11And my education was, was very different.

21:13And I brought all that with me into the church.

21:13And I brought all that with me into the church.

21:15And what I've told people is no one ever tried to disabuse me of any of that as, as an adult who was, who could present as fairly well informed and fairly intelligent.

21:15And what I've told people is no one ever tried to disabuse me of any of that as, as an adult who was, who could present as fairly well informed and fairly intelligent.

21:27I guess, I don't know, they just didn't think it was worth it or maybe they were intimidated by the, by the prospect of trying to get me to like return cognitively to primary school so that I could have, I could be indoctrinated and condition to believe all these things.

21:27I guess, I don't know, they just didn't think it was worth it or maybe they were intimidated by the, by the prospect of trying to get me to like return cognitively to primary school so that I could have, I could be indoctrinated and condition to believe all these things.

21:42And so I think that for a lot of people who raised like that, once you have those, those primary answers is what we say within the LDS tradition kind of installed in your cognitive foundations and the foundation of your worldview.

21:42And so I think that for a lot of people who raised like that, once you have those, those primary answers is what we say within the LDS tradition kind of installed in your cognitive foundations and the foundation of your worldview.

21:56It's hard to let them go.

21:56It's hard to let them go.

21:58And so usually the perspectives in adulthood are not very far from those foundations that were built, which is why I think a lot of apologists who go to seminary or something like that because they want to, they want to defend the faith.

21:58And so usually the perspectives in adulthood are not very far from those foundations that were built, which is why I think a lot of apologists who go to seminary or something like that because they want to, they want to defend the faith.

22:13They end up still, the apple does not roll far away from the tree and they end up defending a lot of very simplistic, very juvenile perspectives about what faith can be what a religious identity is and what sin and all that kind of stuff is as well.

22:13They end up still, the apple does not roll far away from the tree and they end up defending a lot of very simplistic, very juvenile perspectives about what faith can be what a religious identity is and what sin and all that kind of stuff is as well.

22:29Yeah, and I think that's for me, really the core piece of me was like, always questioning, right? And, you know, finding things that like didn't seem right and then asking the questions, getting answers, and eventually there's answers.

22:29Yeah, and I think that's for me, really the core piece of me was like, always questioning, right? And, you know, finding things that like didn't seem right and then asking the questions, getting answers, and eventually there's answers.

22:44The more, the more developed by brain became that the less satisfying his answers were, and then the further I got in school, the more I was like, no, science, I really believe this, this is like, this is testable, this is repeatable, right?

22:44The more, the more developed by brain became that the less satisfying his answers were, and then the further I got in school, the more I was like, no, science, I really believe this, this is like, this is testable, this is repeatable, right?

23:00And there was this limbo phase with figuring out, like, what does that mean about the Bible and all that kind of stuff but for me, like, and this is for good or for bad, you know, when, when I, when I don't have an answer.

23:00And there was this limbo phase with figuring out, like, what does that mean about the Bible and all that kind of stuff but for me, like, and this is for good or for bad, you know, when, when I, when I don't have an answer.

23:16Yeah, come some point, just leave that, and yeah, I'll just watch some Damocle and videos at some point.

23:16Yeah, come some point, just leave that, and yeah, I'll just watch some Damocle and videos at some point.

23:30Yes, yes.

23:30Yes, yes.

23:31We can't really know for sure. I'm just going to suspend judgment and move along with my life. I don't have to resolve this right now, particularly when it's something that no one has ever been able to resolve.

23:31We can't really know for sure. I'm just going to suspend judgment and move along with my life. I don't have to resolve this right now, particularly when it's something that no one has ever been able to resolve.

23:42Such an important thing that we don't always get in society, we don't always get taught that, like saying I don't know, is such a positive, like strong position to take, whereas, but we, I think there's this sense that there's a weakness in I don't know, or that there's

23:42Such an important thing that we don't always get in society, we don't always get taught that, like saying I don't know, is such a positive, like strong position to take, whereas, but we, I think there's this sense that there's a weakness in I don't know, or that there's

24:03somehow a shame in I don't know.

24:03somehow a shame in I don't know.

24:13And that everything does have an answer. If you're proclaiming objective, absolute truth, and people are like, well, tell me about this moral quandary.

24:13And that everything does have an answer. If you're proclaiming objective, absolute truth, and people are like, well, tell me about this moral quandary.

24:21And they're like, well, now I've committed to having an answer, so I need to have one. Yeah, over towards the end of December, near the solstice, I did a couple of like darkest night moments on TikTok Live.

24:21And they're like, well, now I've committed to having an answer, so I need to have one. Yeah, over towards the end of December, near the solstice, I did a couple of like darkest night moments on TikTok Live.

24:38And where I just said, like, just name what's hard, like the holidays are not always happy. And in fact, the like pressure to feel and act happy can make the sadness worse. And so it was intense.

24:38And where I just said, like, just name what's hard, like the holidays are not always happy. And in fact, the like pressure to feel and act happy can make the sadness worse. And so it was intense.

24:52I'll be honest, like it was thousands of people and they're just like it was scrolling by faster than I could.

24:52I'll be honest, like it was thousands of people and they're just like it was scrolling by faster than I could.

24:59Then I could answer them, but there was a couple of times where somebody would say like, you know, I lost both my kids in a car wreck, you know, earlier this year, and how could God do that to me and all this kind of stuff.

24:59Then I could answer them, but there was a couple of times where somebody would say like, you know, I lost both my kids in a car wreck, you know, earlier this year, and how could God do that to me and all this kind of stuff.

25:13And like, how could God be loving and all of that. And like, I remember saying like, I have no idea. But that is horrible. It shouldn't happen.

25:13And like, how could God be loving and all of that. And like, I remember saying like, I have no idea. But that is horrible. It shouldn't happen.

25:30And the like feeling that you have that there's something fundamentally flawed about the universe, because that kind of stuff can happen. I think that's right.

25:30And the like feeling that you have that there's something fundamentally flawed about the universe, because that kind of stuff can happen. I think that's right.

25:42And I can just be there with you and hold space for it. And it was interesting. I could like, I literally have like there's no answer to that.

25:42And I can just be there with you and hold space for it. And it was interesting. I could like, I literally have like there's no answer to that.

25:52And when there are a couple of times that happened, they're like, I don't know answer. People were like, Oh, shit.

25:52And when there are a couple of times that happened, they're like, I don't know answer. People were like, Oh, shit.

26:00I mean, that's what I was looking for. That's the thing. Like, like, yeah, I think that it becomes almost problematic. Yeah, when people, you know, I've been to funerals where because of the religious construct of the funeral.

26:00I mean, that's what I was looking for. That's the thing. Like, like, yeah, I think that it becomes almost problematic. Yeah, when people, you know, I've been to funerals where because of the religious construct of the funeral.

26:19People weren't allowed to mourn. Like they like it was seen as a as a as a failure of faith to mourn the passing of a person who was supposedly now in a better place.

26:19People weren't allowed to mourn. Like they like it was seen as a as a as a failure of faith to mourn the passing of a person who was supposedly now in a better place.

26:32So why would you mourn that? And it's it doesn't acknowledge the human moment that's happening.

26:32So why would you mourn that? And it's it doesn't acknowledge the human moment that's happening.

26:38I think it's something that I mean, how many couples how many wives have had to try to help their husbands understand that they don't need to be fixed. They just need somebody to cry with them or to be there for them.

26:38I think it's something that I mean, how many couples how many wives have had to try to help their husbands understand that they don't need to be fixed. They just need somebody to cry with them or to be there for them.

26:50And so that's why to commit the sin of empathy.

26:50And so that's why to commit the sin of empathy.

26:54One of the the eighth deadly sin that scene was cut out of seven. And they had to change the title of the film, which cost them a lot of money with the scene.

26:54One of the the eighth deadly sin that scene was cut out of seven. And they had to change the title of the film, which cost them a lot of money with the scene.

27:03But anyway, the and there's a there's an explanation for this because an awful lot of Christianity is is built on having right belief. That's what the doxy is.

27:03But anyway, the and there's a there's an explanation for this because an awful lot of Christianity is is built on having right belief. That's what the doxy is.

27:16And so there's also this presupposition that turns out to be entirely wrong. We can test it and show that behavior is not directly does not flow directly downstream from belief.

27:16And so there's also this presupposition that turns out to be entirely wrong. We can test it and show that behavior is not directly does not flow directly downstream from belief.

27:28But that is a very, very common connection that is made. And so, and this is actually has like evolutionary pretty deep roots.

27:28But that is a very, very common connection that is made. And so, and this is actually has like evolutionary pretty deep roots.

27:37That's if you're a part of a community, communities have certain standards, certain beliefs, certain more is, and these exist so that you can put on display your fidelity to the group's standards to others.

27:37That's if you're a part of a community, communities have certain standards, certain beliefs, certain more is, and these exist so that you can put on display your fidelity to the group's standards to others.

27:51So we live in communities that are large enough that pretty much everybody can expect to run into people on a fairly regular basis that they don't know and have to even rely on them or whatever they need to get done.

27:51So we live in communities that are large enough that pretty much everybody can expect to run into people on a fairly regular basis that they don't know and have to even rely on them or whatever they need to get done.

28:04And you need mechanisms to be able to know, I can trust this person or I can't trust this person. I need to have a duel with this person, whatever.

28:04And you need mechanisms to be able to know, I can trust this person or I can't trust this person. I need to have a duel with this person, whatever.

28:11And religion, what we label religion is a very efficient and effective means of doing that with a lot of the rituals and things that we do.

28:11And religion, what we label religion is a very efficient and effective means of doing that with a lot of the rituals and things that we do.

28:19But this results in a lot of beliefs becoming costly, signaling. So to go to a funeral and say, I'm not sad. I'm happy because they're in a better place.

28:19But this results in a lot of beliefs becoming costly, signaling. So to go to a funeral and say, I'm not sad. I'm happy because they're in a better place.

28:30That is a way and deep down, like that's that's an inevitable human reaction. You can't, you can't avoid that, but that you hide it.

28:30That is a way and deep down, like that's that's an inevitable human reaction. You can't, you can't avoid that, but that you hide it.

28:38You incur that cost by performing that faith because that shows everybody else.

28:38You incur that cost by performing that faith because that shows everybody else.

28:44No, I get it. I believe it. I believe what we're supposed to believe. And because if we believe what we're supposed to believe, we will behave a certain way.

28:44No, I get it. I believe it. I believe what we're supposed to believe. And because if we believe what we're supposed to believe, we will behave a certain way.

28:51I'm willing to behave that way. And they're hard to fake signals of sincere belief in the group's standards.

28:51I'm willing to behave that way. And they're hard to fake signals of sincere belief in the group's standards.

29:00And that kind of stuff's been tested for decades.

29:00And that kind of stuff's been tested for decades.

29:02Yeah, I had this conversation with the rabbi and you're going to tell me it's wrong probably and it's going to ruin everything.

29:02Yeah, I had this conversation with the rabbi and you're going to tell me it's wrong probably and it's going to ruin everything.

29:10But he told me about the point in the Exodus story where Moses comes down, gathers everybody, reads the law, and then they respond.

29:10But he told me about the point in the Exodus story where Moses comes down, gathers everybody, reads the law, and then they respond.

29:24And he said that there's this construction there of their response that says in Hebrew it says, like in an English translation, we will do what got its command in us or whatever.

29:24And he said that there's this construction there of their response that says in Hebrew it says, like in an English translation, we will do what got its command in us or whatever.

29:37But in the Hebrew it says, and this is where you're going to tell me I'm wrong, but it's fine, that they say all that all the Lord has said, we will do and we will hear, or we will do and we will understand.

29:37But in the Hebrew it says, and this is where you're going to tell me I'm wrong, but it's fine, that they say all that all the Lord has said, we will do and we will hear, or we will do and we will understand.

29:51It's like do and hear, right?

29:51It's like do and hear, right?

29:53Okay.

29:53Okay.

29:54And you're safe.

29:54And you're safe.

29:56You're reaching in doesn't have a, Dan doesn't have any way of looking at you because normally it's here and do. It's the other way around. Right. But in the order of the words, and this is what he said.

29:56You're reaching in doesn't have a, Dan doesn't have any way of looking at you because normally it's here and do. It's the other way around. Right. But in the order of the words, and this is what he said.

30:08And so, you know, we'll see.

30:08And so, you know, we'll see.

30:11So he said that it's actually revealing something about how we, like we experienced belief that we don't understand and then do, but it's in the doing that we like form our beliefs.

30:11So he said that it's actually revealing something about how we, like we experienced belief that we don't understand and then do, but it's in the doing that we like form our beliefs.

30:25In community, and that like, there's obviously an interplay between what we learn and what we do, but like, and that, you know, even if you tell me it's a lie, that has really formed a lot of what the way I process things.

30:25In community, and that like, there's obviously an interplay between what we learn and what we do, but like, and that, you know, even if you tell me it's a lie, that has really formed a lot of what the way I process things.

30:44And also, I'm a Wesleyan, I'm from this Wesleyan tradition where we have experience as part of this sort of belief formation process that they say was Wesley, but it was just totally made up by a scholar, which is fine.

30:44And also, I'm a Wesleyan, I'm from this Wesleyan tradition where we have experience as part of this sort of belief formation process that they say was Wesley, but it was just totally made up by a scholar, which is fine.

30:59But yeah, that, that whole idea of like, do it like it's in the doing that we believe. Yeah, yeah, that, that feels right to me with my experience of the world. And even in the LDS tradition, you have something very similar that a testimony is developed in the bearing of it.

30:59But yeah, that, that whole idea of like, do it like it's in the doing that we believe. Yeah, yeah, that, that feels right to me with my experience of the world. And even in the LDS tradition, you have something very similar that a testimony is developed in the bearing of it.

31:18That's interesting. And so, and I think there's, I think there are two sides to this because on one, the kind of cynical side of me would say, this is just a rationalization of people not being able to deny that you actually are performing this.

31:18That's interesting. And so, and I think there's, I think there are two sides to this because on one, the kind of cynical side of me would say, this is just a rationalization of people not being able to deny that you actually are performing this.

31:33And they're saying, okay, well, yeah, we'll say that you're performing it, but that's how you develop like the cynical side of me would be like, that's just a rationalization, but at the same time, I think there is, there is truth to that because the performance is what develops the community.

31:33And they're saying, okay, well, yeah, we'll say that you're performing it, but that's how you develop like the cynical side of me would be like, that's just a rationalization, but at the same time, I think there is, there is truth to that because the performance is what develops the community.

31:46And, and so while there is a degree of, of performativeness, I think, to that kind of thing, if that is generating community and if that is generating connections and meaning and value and all that kind of thing, then, then I think there is truth to the fact that the community has developed

31:46And, and so while there is a degree of, of performativeness, I think, to that kind of thing, if that is generating community and if that is generating connections and meaning and value and all that kind of thing, then, then I think there is truth to the fact that the community has developed

32:03and faith is, is increased and, and, you know, there's this collective effervescence to quote an outdated scholar. That's, that makes it all meaningful and makes it all worth it. And, and so from an experiential point of view, I think there's, there's value to that absolutely.

32:03and faith is, is increased and, and, you know, there's this collective effervescence to quote an outdated scholar. That's, that makes it all meaningful and makes it all worth it. And, and so from an experiential point of view, I think there's, there's value to that absolutely.

32:22So yeah, I really, after after we stop recording, I've got, I've got to know you're going to, I need you to look up, look up the passage and see normally it is here and do. Right. No, for sure.

32:22So yeah, I really, after after we stop recording, I've got, I've got to know you're going to, I need you to look up, look up the passage and see normally it is here and do. Right. No, for sure.

32:35Maybe we'll do that in the in the patron party. Oh, patrons only definitely.

32:35Maybe we'll do that in the in the patron party. Oh, patrons only definitely.

32:40Well, we'll give our patron something to look forward to. And usually also shamaz the verb for here, but it's not used to just mean passively here. It means harken, something like harken. It's, it's more like we will, we will, you know, absorb this and, and we will agree with it and that kind of stuff.

32:40Well, we'll give our patron something to look forward to. And usually also shamaz the verb for here, but it's not used to just mean passively here. It means harken, something like harken. It's, it's more like we will, we will, you know, absorb this and, and we will agree with it and that kind of stuff.

32:59Yeah. I wanted to get to just talking about whom you're ministering to. Okay. And what, and, and, and because you've mentioned that it is not a standard flock that you are shepherd of talk, talk about, like, how it has come about and then, and, and who they, who they tend to be and why you're, why, why they've come to you.

32:59Yeah. I wanted to get to just talking about whom you're ministering to. Okay. And what, and, and, and because you've mentioned that it is not a standard flock that you are shepherd of talk, talk about, like, how it has come about and then, and, and who they, who they tend to be and why you're, why, why they've come to you.

33:25Why they've come to me. Who else knows. But this is beyond all content created with large audiences, when people come and say, what is the secret?

33:25Why they've come to me. Who else knows. But this is beyond all content created with large audiences, when people come and say, what is the secret?

33:35Nobody knows. I don't know. I put shit out there and people watch it. And at some point, I feel like they'll stop, but they haven't. So, yeah, I, so I was writing a marketing article and trying to tell nonprofits how to use TikTok.

33:35Nobody knows. I don't know. I put shit out there and people watch it. And at some point, I feel like they'll stop, but they haven't. So, yeah, I, so I was writing a marketing article and trying to tell nonprofits how to use TikTok.

33:54I was researching how to use TikTok. And I decided I was going to put out some content that was authentic to who I am, which is a pastor who is not sure if God exists, which is funny because I've said that in all the places I've ever worked.

33:54I was researching how to use TikTok. And I decided I was going to put out some content that was authentic to who I am, which is a pastor who is not sure if God exists, which is funny because I've said that in all the places I've ever worked.

34:12And they didn't ever fire me. Actually, I just got set up on blind date with atheist nephews to talk to them. So I did that. And I, I suppose corruption in the church, which is like, I think an important piece because

34:12And they didn't ever fire me. Actually, I just got set up on blind date with atheist nephews to talk to them. So I did that. And I, I suppose corruption in the church, which is like, I think an important piece because

34:34to have a pastor name these things as like wrong and this shouldn't have happened. And, and where I was part of it earlier to confess that like, yeah, I did that and I can't believe it.

34:34to have a pastor name these things as like wrong and this shouldn't have happened. And, and where I was part of it earlier to confess that like, yeah, I did that and I can't believe it.

34:48And I'm, I suck as a Christian. So that's an important piece for people to sit. I don't know. See, see a person in this role. Say that. Well, it's sadly, it's not what we're used to, right? What we're used to is hearing about corruption or, or, you know, some sort of sexual misconduct or whatever.

34:48And I'm, I suck as a Christian. So that's an important piece for people to sit. I don't know. See, see a person in this role. Say that. Well, it's sadly, it's not what we're used to, right? What we're used to is hearing about corruption or, or, you know, some sort of sexual misconduct or whatever.

35:10And how the church and the people surrounding it and like the higher ups covered it up and how they shuffled it away. So like to hear someone who is in the clergy, willing to actually call it out as the horrible thing that it is and just, and to decry it.

35:10And how the church and the people surrounding it and like the higher ups covered it up and how they shuffled it away. So like to hear someone who is in the clergy, willing to actually call it out as the horrible thing that it is and just, and to decry it.

35:29And he's unfortunately a little bit rare. Yeah. And it's a thing that, that my experience is that people who have been harmed in that way respond to it in a thank you.

35:29And he's unfortunately a little bit rare. Yeah. And it's a thing that, that my experience is that people who have been harmed in that way respond to it in a thank you.

35:49That's the other option. Right. So like, you know, the idea that like the Bible says you should give 10% of your income. Not, not really there, but it's used to like manipulate people into giving you money, giving you 10% of their social security check when they can't even pay for, you know, what they've got.

35:49That's the other option. Right. So like, you know, the idea that like the Bible says you should give 10% of your income. Not, not really there, but it's used to like manipulate people into giving you money, giving you 10% of their social security check when they can't even pay for, you know, what they've got.

36:10You know, it's named that is corrupt and to then people are like, okay, this is interesting not know what, or they'll send you a DM and say like, okay, yeah, I feel like I can trust that you won't bullshit me here. Here's the next question.

36:10You know, it's named that is corrupt and to then people are like, okay, this is interesting not know what, or they'll send you a DM and say like, okay, yeah, I feel like I can trust that you won't bullshit me here. Here's the next question.

36:24So I do that, I did that, and then I did like progressive takes on the Bible, ancient spirit, I call it an ancient spiritual text instead of the Bible just because people bump on the Bible word.

36:24So I do that, I did that, and then I did like progressive takes on the Bible, ancient spirit, I call it an ancient spiritual text instead of the Bible just because people bump on the Bible word.

36:41But not just to like parrot, damocle on Pete ends, but in a way that says, okay, so, you know, we don't have to deal with the Bible's sexual ethic and, you know, map an ancient culture's understanding of sexuality one for one on to our modern culture.

36:41But not just to like parrot, damocle on Pete ends, but in a way that says, okay, so, you know, we don't have to deal with the Bible's sexual ethic and, you know, map an ancient culture's understanding of sexuality one for one on to our modern culture.

37:03Probably shouldn't. Right. Not to have to. Right. But it was written right there. Right. And, but what that does is it lets you look at like something deeper in those passages, find something, and then say, okay, now that, that thing is something that I can say, you know, how do I, how does that help me be the best version of myself.

37:03Probably shouldn't. Right. Not to have to. Right. But it was written right there. Right. And, but what that does is it lets you look at like something deeper in those passages, find something, and then say, okay, now that, that thing is something that I can say, you know, how do I, how does that help me be the best version of myself.

37:24So the idea is that, like, I try to do, I try to take scholars and convey their content in a way that pushes people towards being able to form their own spiritual beliefs.

37:24So the idea is that, like, I try to do, I try to take scholars and convey their content in a way that pushes people towards being able to form their own spiritual beliefs.

37:39And then I actually talk about how you choose beliefs instead of inheriting them. And so I did that. And it just, there was all of these people that they were like, actually, this is really healing for me.

37:39And then I actually talk about how you choose beliefs instead of inheriting them. And so I did that. And it just, there was all of these people that they were like, actually, this is really healing for me.

38:01This is an interesting question for me, because the concept of choosing beliefs, at very least on some level, beliefs kind of aren't a choice, right? Like, I can't choose to believe something like, you know, if you tell, if you, if you just say, hey, I'll give you a hundred bucks, if you just believe that there's a giant pickle in space for sure.

38:01This is an interesting question for me, because the concept of choosing beliefs, at very least on some level, beliefs kind of aren't a choice, right? Like, I can't choose to believe something like, you know, if you tell, if you, if you just say, hey, I'll give you a hundred bucks, if you just believe that there's a giant pickle in space for sure.

38:25I can't. Like, if I'm being honest, I can't choose that. You choose beliefs based on the data that you've received.

38:25I can't. Like, if I'm being honest, I can't choose that. You choose beliefs based on the data that you've received.

38:33I guess my perspective would be that I receive a bunch of data and then my brain shuffles it around as best it can. And then, and then whatever, whatever comes out of that shuffle is what I believe, but I don't know that I chose that.

38:33I guess my perspective would be that I receive a bunch of data and then my brain shuffles it around as best it can. And then, and then whatever, whatever comes out of that shuffle is what I believe, but I don't know that I chose that.

38:49It just feels like I just, that's just my summation of everything that I've been able to take in.

38:49It just feels like I just, that's just my summation of everything that I've been able to take in.

38:56Right. Yeah. So, you know, I totally get that. And I'm not, I don't think you're wrong.

38:56Right. Yeah. So, you know, I totally get that. And I'm not, I don't think you're wrong.

39:07What I'm talking about is that, like, people often have given someone else authority chosen to give Brother Johnny, right, the, like, role of telling them what is true and what to believe.

39:07What I'm talking about is that, like, people often have given someone else authority chosen to give Brother Johnny, right, the, like, role of telling them what is true and what to believe.

39:23And they have just adopted that belief system. And so really, they've chosen beliefs either way, but ultimately, the choice to have it outsourced and just inherit beliefs from either an external,

39:23And they have just adopted that belief system. And so really, they've chosen beliefs either way, but ultimately, the choice to have it outsourced and just inherit beliefs from either an external,

39:36some sort of external source, is the thing that causes people to, like, unravel.

39:36some sort of external source, is the thing that causes people to, like, unravel.

39:41Yeah. Well, there's, and there's a lot of research on this as well. Yeah, for sure. Because there's a, there's a big difference between closely held beliefs about the way the world works and what cognitive scientists of religion might label religious credences.

39:41Yeah. Well, there's, and there's a lot of research on this as well. Yeah, for sure. Because there's a, there's a big difference between closely held beliefs about the way the world works and what cognitive scientists of religion might label religious credences.

39:53Yeah. Right. Because when you say, oh, I, I believe that. Do you believe that, that Jesus did that or the other two, this or that or the other person or whatever?

39:53Yeah. Right. Because when you say, oh, I, I believe that. Do you believe that, that Jesus did that or the other two, this or that or the other person or whatever?

40:03They're not, whether or not that is actually a deeply held belief is kind of irrelevant. What is important is, are you willing to sign off on this? Right.

40:03They're not, whether or not that is actually a deeply held belief is kind of irrelevant. What is important is, are you willing to sign off on this? Right.

40:12And so are you willing to give your public a cent, which is that turns that thing not so much into a belief as into a credence. It is a creed.

40:12And so are you willing to give your public a cent, which is that turns that thing not so much into a belief as into a credence. It is a creed.

40:21Are you willing to sign off on the creed? Because we can't really have, like, we can, you know, you've got, you've got a telescope over here.

40:21Are you willing to sign off on the creed? Because we can't really have, like, we can, you know, you've got, you've got a telescope over here.

40:29We can, we can look into space. We can see things. We can observe things and our intuitions and the, the more critical thinking that we use and, and the more analytical thinking that we use, the more convinced we might be of actual truth claims.

40:29We can, we can look into space. We can see things. We can observe things and our intuitions and the, the more critical thinking that we use and, and the more analytical thinking that we use, the more convinced we might be of actual truth claims.

40:45Right. Right. That's a different kind of cognition. Right.

40:45Right. Right. That's a different kind of cognition. Right.

40:49Then saying, I believe Jesus rose from the dead because that's for sure. You're really just saying this identity is so important to me that I'm willing to sign off on this credence.

40:49Then saying, I believe Jesus rose from the dead because that's for sure. You're really just saying this identity is so important to me that I'm willing to sign off on this credence.

40:59They function in different ways. They have changed in different ways because, like, when you have seen a ball drop, you don't just one day wake up and be like, ah, gravity's not for me anymore.

40:59They function in different ways. They have changed in different ways because, like, when you have seen a ball drop, you don't just one day wake up and be like, ah, gravity's not for me anymore.

41:11Like, you know, those things don't really, they're not revizable, but within religions or, you know, quasi religious communities.

41:11Like, you know, those things don't really, they're not revizable, but within religions or, you know, quasi religious communities.

41:22One day, you might say, we cannot elect a president who cheats on his wife because then he'll cheat on the country.

41:22One day, you might say, we cannot elect a president who cheats on his wife because then he'll cheat on the country.

41:29And a few short decades later, you wake up and be like, suddenly, I believe that we're not electing a pastor. We're electing a leader.

41:29And a few short decades later, you wake up and be like, suddenly, I believe that we're not electing a pastor. We're electing a leader.

41:38So I no longer believe that it is wrong to have a president who cheats on his wife. So those kinds of credences are revizable and they do. They are revised constantly.

41:38So I no longer believe that it is wrong to have a president who cheats on his wife. So those kinds of credences are revizable and they do. They are revised constantly.

41:48Yeah. And so I think they're also operating on different wavelengths. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And that's where, you know, so I think, like rewinding to this original path that we were on.

41:48Yeah. And so I think they're also operating on different wavelengths. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And that's where, you know, so I think, like rewinding to this original path that we were on.

42:02Out of all of that came this community of people that was looking for, like, a spiritual community, like a church. Most of them had experienced church and in some way had, there was an element of that that was positive for them.

42:02Out of all of that came this community of people that was looking for, like, a spiritual community, like a church. Most of them had experienced church and in some way had, there was an element of that that was positive for them.

42:23And they were looking for that, but they could never go to a church. Right. Could never go back. That was not a thing. And cuz sister Pam is there. And all in like the place where the trauma happened, right? That is a trigger.

42:23And they were looking for that, but they could never go to a church. Right. Could never go back. That was not a thing. And cuz sister Pam is there. And all in like the place where the trauma happened, right? That is a trigger.

42:40It's not just the one place, but all these places. And so, and so they started asking for a place together. And we started discord. And eventually it was sort of dubbed not church.

42:40It's not just the one place, but all these places. And so, and so they started asking for a place together. And we started discord. And eventually it was sort of dubbed not church.

42:57Because it was like the stuff you wanted from church where people were having spiritual conversations, talking about, you know, God or whatever, and being there for each other in difficult times without somebody telling you you're going to hell because there was a terror deck next to your, you know, bed.

42:57Because it was like the stuff you wanted from church where people were having spiritual conversations, talking about, you know, God or whatever, and being there for each other in difficult times without somebody telling you you're going to hell because there was a terror deck next to your, you know, bed.

43:15Just just because I know that my 90 year old mom is listening discord is an online is an internet sort of meeting. Yeah. Yeah, it's like, it's like somewhere between a forum and chat. Yeah.

43:15Just just because I know that my 90 year old mom is listening discord is an online is an internet sort of meeting. Yeah. Yeah, it's like, it's like somewhere between a forum and chat. Yeah.

43:31And, and then as part of that, we started this podcast called unbelief, where, you know, on one, once a week, I do like a something like a Bible study where I do a longer form lecture to pause that I pause and say like, you know, like, when Moses goes in hot to the pharaoh

43:31And, and then as part of that, we started this podcast called unbelief, where, you know, on one, once a week, I do like a something like a Bible study where I do a longer form lecture to pause that I pause and say like, you know, like, when Moses goes in hot to the pharaoh

43:54and is like, right after everything is perfect, when he goes to the people and they're like, Oh, right. Yeah, great. God told you. And then he goes in hot with the fair and fair is like, who are you? Like, why are you talking to me like that?

43:54and is like, right after everything is perfect, when he goes to the people and they're like, Oh, right. Yeah, great. God told you. And then he goes in hot with the fair and fair is like, who are you? Like, why are you talking to me like that?

44:05And to like be able to extrapolate just human experience out of that and like, I've definitely done that. Right. And like, that's not always the best. So that kind of like looking at trying to understand the original, meaning the original context.

44:05And to like be able to extrapolate just human experience out of that and like, I've definitely done that. Right. And like, that's not always the best. So that kind of like looking at trying to understand the original, meaning the original context.

44:21And then find points in that it can help me become a better, better version of myself. So that happens once a week. And then we interview somebody or like a scholar, somebody like that author, or just have somebody tell their story of like everything unraveling

44:21And then find points in that it can help me become a better, better version of myself. So that happens once a week. And then we interview somebody or like a scholar, somebody like that author, or just have somebody tell their story of like everything unraveling

44:39and what works for them right now. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know. It's this really weird, but beautiful community, right? Like, you have no idea the wide ranging discussions

44:39and what works for them right now. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know. It's this really weird, but beautiful community, right? Like, you have no idea the wide ranging discussions

44:58among this group, like somebody talking about tarot and astrology in this one channel, while talking about in another channel, the like takeover of the Republican Party by the religious right. Well, in another channel, really trying to understand

44:58among this group, like somebody talking about tarot and astrology in this one channel, while talking about in another channel, the like takeover of the Republican Party by the religious right. Well, in another channel, really trying to understand

45:17this Greek thing that Dan McClellan said in his video, right? And it's like, and then a place where like somebody like at 1130 at night says, I'm going to the hospital. I think I'm having a heart attack. Oh, wow. Right? And it's like, and nobody's yelling at each other. And when anybody says like, I've had this like spiritual experience, everybody's like, that's amazing.

45:17this Greek thing that Dan McClellan said in his video, right? And it's like, and then a place where like somebody like at 1130 at night says, I'm going to the hospital. I think I'm having a heart attack. Oh, wow. Right? And it's like, and nobody's yelling at each other. And when anybody says like, I've had this like spiritual experience, everybody's like, that's amazing.

45:44Tell me how you did like, they want to know more that some of them want to try that. And like, honestly, being there. I was talking at this church about my book this last Sunday.

45:44Tell me how you did like, they want to know more that some of them want to try that. And like, honestly, being there. I was talking at this church about my book this last Sunday.

46:04And for whatever reason, I said, Moses went on, went up on this mountain, took ayahuasca and had this, like, yeah, I won't be invited back. I just stumbled on a bush. It was already on fire.

46:04And for whatever reason, I said, Moses went on, went up on this mountain, took ayahuasca and had this, like, yeah, I won't be invited back. I just stumbled on a bush. It was already on fire.

46:18And I was just trying to figure out what was going on. And this dude started talking to me from out of the fire. Are you the singing bush? He said. Right. Right.

46:18And I was just trying to figure out what was going on. And this dude started talking to me from out of the fire. Are you the singing bush? He said. Right. Right.

46:28Well, and there's a, that's a question I get all the time about psychedelics and other kinds of drug use in ancient Israel. But we have discovered on one of the incense altars that was discovered in a Judahite temple that dates to the first temple period.

46:28Well, and there's a, that's a question I get all the time about psychedelics and other kinds of drug use in ancient Israel. But we have discovered on one of the incense altars that was discovered in a Judahite temple that dates to the first temple period.

46:44They have three different types of cannabis on the incense altar. So there was cannabis in ancient Israelite and Judahite temple ritual. Yeah. Just don't say that on my tiktok live because it'll doesn't immediately get taken down.

46:44They have three different types of cannabis on the incense altar. So there was cannabis in ancient Israelite and Judahite temple ritual. Yeah. Just don't say that on my tiktok live because it'll doesn't immediately get taken down.

47:01Yeah, it's hard to have grown up conversations on tiktok. There's a knock at the door and what happened? Oh, yeah. Somebody said mirror one.

47:01Yeah, it's hard to have grown up conversations on tiktok. There's a knock at the door and what happened? Oh, yeah. Somebody said mirror one.

47:11So how has this experience been for you? As you say, it can get very intense in these, in these forums and it can be, it can be a lot. You know, if people are coming to you first when they're on their way to the hospital.

47:11So how has this experience been for you? As you say, it can get very intense in these, in these forums and it can be, it can be a lot. You know, if people are coming to you first when they're on their way to the hospital.

47:28Right. Yeah. Well, you know, it's not. So this, first off, the scale of it, especially on tiktok DMs and that kind of stuff. The scale there is sort of off the charts. It's hard.

47:28Right. Yeah. Well, you know, it's not. So this, first off, the scale of it, especially on tiktok DMs and that kind of stuff. The scale there is sort of off the charts. It's hard.

47:48It's something that I'm still trying to grapple with showing up as a pastor in that space with this just, I mean, like the scale of all of that.

47:48It's something that I'm still trying to grapple with showing up as a pastor in that space with this just, I mean, like the scale of all of that.

47:59But in the like discord community, which is really sort of the size of church.

47:59But in the like discord community, which is really sort of the size of church.

48:05It's not uncommon. It's not that far off from what I would have experienced as a pastor, except, you know, there's, you know, in a mega church in the deep south. There was a lot less conversation about tarot and astrology.

48:05It's not uncommon. It's not that far off from what I would have experienced as a pastor, except, you know, there's, you know, in a mega church in the deep south. There was a lot less conversation about tarot and astrology.

48:22Right. Well, and in the discord context, they're able to offload a lot of the responsibility and a lot of the guidance. It's not all on you. It's right. They take care of a lot of that themselves. Yeah.

48:22Right. Well, and in the discord context, they're able to offload a lot of the responsibility and a lot of the guidance. It's not all on you. It's right. They take care of a lot of that themselves. Yeah.

48:34Which is what you mentioned earlier. We were talking about how a community develops and suddenly there are people who are jumping into the comments and being like, well, Jeremy would say this and it was funny. Like, when that first started happening, I was like, I mean, they're right, but this is weird.

48:34Which is what you mentioned earlier. We were talking about how a community develops and suddenly there are people who are jumping into the comments and being like, well, Jeremy would say this and it was funny. Like, when that first started happening, I was like, I mean, they're right, but this is weird.

48:47How dare you. But then you're like, can you take care of you? Can I hire you?

48:47How dare you. But then you're like, can you take care of you? Can I hire you?

48:53It's probably not great for you to speak for me. But if you're going to, that was actually a really great way to do it.

48:53It's probably not great for you to speak for me. But if you're going to, that was actually a really great way to do it.

48:58Well, I had, I had somebody recommend to me recently, because, you know, I don't even see all the DMS. I get much less read, much less respond to them. And, and somebody was like, well, you can, you can train a language model with your own stuff.

48:58Well, I had, I had somebody recommend to me recently, because, you know, I don't even see all the DMS. I get much less read, much less respond to them. And, and somebody was like, well, you can, you can train a language model with your own stuff.

49:16And then create like an app where they can, they can come and ask for advice. And it will pretty reliably respond. And with your voice and everything to say what they, it thinks you might say.

49:16And then create like an app where they can, they can come and ask for advice. And it will pretty reliably respond. And with your voice and everything to say what they, it thinks you might say.

49:29And I was like, that was like, I imagine there are certain kind of industries and professions where that's just, that changes the game. Yeah.

49:29And I was like, that was like, I imagine there are certain kind of industries and professions where that's just, that changes the game. Yeah.

49:38But yeah, you're not ready for McClellan app with, with as much trouble as we have found just with like chat GPT and Dan GPT.

49:38But yeah, you're not ready for McClellan app with, with as much trouble as we have found just with like chat GPT and Dan GPT.

49:49There we go. I don't know. It's just hanging right out there for it.

49:49There we go. I don't know. It's just hanging right out there for it.

49:56Yeah. And I think, yeah, that's the really, and I really don't know what to do. You know, like, I, I have a quarter of your audit.

49:56Yeah. And I think, yeah, that's the really, and I really don't know what to do. You know, like, I, I have a quarter of your audit.

50:07You're, you're followers. And I still, there's thousands of comments. Like, I get so many. It's like, at some point, I've just stopped trying to respond to all the comments.

50:07You're, you're followers. And I still, there's thousands of comments. Like, I get so many. It's like, at some point, I've just stopped trying to respond to all the comments.

50:17Well, you also position yourself as, as pastoral and, and, and your, in your engagement. And I have, I have studiously avoided.

50:17Well, you also position yourself as, as pastoral and, and, and your, in your engagement. And I have, I have studiously avoided.

50:26Right. Yeah. So I imagine that, that you get a much higher proportion of, of your messages from people looking for help.

50:26Right. Yeah. So I imagine that, that you get a much higher proportion of, of your messages from people looking for help.

50:34Because I've, I've been like, I'm, I'm not here to, to be your pastor. And I just give unwanted advice. Right. Sure. I definitely don't. Yeah.

50:34Because I've, I've been like, I'm, I'm not here to, to be your pastor. And I just give unwanted advice. Right. Sure. I definitely don't. Yeah.

50:43Yeah. And you know, like, this morning, I was trying, I mean, like, I've just, it's never ending DMs. I can never get to the end of them. So just do my best.

50:43Yeah. And you know, like, this morning, I was trying, I mean, like, I've just, it's never ending DMs. I can never get to the end of them. So just do my best.

50:52And, you know, I had a mom who's, came out to her and her family is rejecting the kid and like, saying like, how, like, on religious grounds and like, how do I process there any way to like work with them.

50:52And, you know, I had a mom who's, came out to her and her family is rejecting the kid and like, saying like, how, like, on religious grounds and like, how do I process there any way to like work with them.

51:13And like, you know, there's just like that to help them understand something else about God.

51:13And like, you know, there's just like that to help them understand something else about God.

51:21And I, you know, let that's, that's every, every, almost every DM that's not just some bot account with like a half naked woman saying, Hey, right.

51:21And I, you know, let that's, that's every, every, almost every DM that's not just some bot account with like a half naked woman saying, Hey, right.

51:34Yeah. How you doing? I'm like, Dolly. Barking up the wrong tree. Right. Yeah. In so many ways.

51:34Yeah. How you doing? I'm like, Dolly. Barking up the wrong tree. Right. Yeah. In so many ways.

51:41So we, yeah, they're all like this, like sort of intense thing. And like you said, like, I've tried to position myself as that.

51:41So we, yeah, they're all like this, like sort of intense thing. And like you said, like, I've tried to position myself as that.

51:50And, yeah. Can you give us a, do you have a, what is your response to that?

51:50And, yeah. Can you give us a, do you have a, what is your response to that?

51:57But depends specifically, the specifics are really important. So the first thing is their instinct is to protect their kid.

51:57But depends specifically, the specifics are really important. So the first thing is their instinct is to protect their kid.

52:07So the Trevor Project, I'm a huge fan of the Trevor Project. I'm actually splitting the royalties of my book with the Trevor Project because they're just, they save kids lives every day.

52:07So the Trevor Project, I'm a huge fan of the Trevor Project. I'm actually splitting the royalties of my book with the Trevor Project because they're just, they save kids lives every day.

52:18And they offer free crisis counseling to LGBTQ young people. Right.

52:18And they offer free crisis counseling to LGBTQ young people. Right.

52:25And they did this research and when a kid comes out.

52:25And they did this research and when a kid comes out.

52:32The, they're, it's 15% chance that they'll try to kill themselves.

52:32The, they're, it's 15% chance that they'll try to kill themselves.

52:37If they're rejected on religious grounds by their family, that doubles.

52:37If they're rejected on religious grounds by their family, that doubles.

52:42And so I always say like your instinct to protect your kid is the right one. Right.

52:42And so I always say like your instinct to protect your kid is the right one. Right.

52:50This is real. This is the research. Like that's important.

52:50This is real. This is the research. Like that's important.

52:55And so there's sort of like two ways. One of the things that I say is like, you're not going to change anyone's mind in one conversation.

52:55And so there's sort of like two ways. One of the things that I say is like, you're not going to change anyone's mind in one conversation.

53:04And if these are people that are like consistently part of your life, that's not something you have to do.

53:04And if these are people that are like consistently part of your life, that's not something you have to do.

53:09So really try to think of changing their mind in a thousand conversations instead of one.

53:09So really try to think of changing their mind in a thousand conversations instead of one.

53:16So very small things. We don't have to have the whole deal, but start on like smallest, most periphery thing and make a little comment and have a short non confrontational discussion and continue to work through that.

53:16So very small things. We don't have to have the whole deal, but start on like smallest, most periphery thing and make a little comment and have a short non confrontational discussion and continue to work through that.

53:31I often recommend a book called Holy Love by a guy named Steve Harper. He was an evangelical seminary professor who was like anti, you know, was not affirming sort of changes mind wrote this book, but he speaks evangelicalish in the book and it's super short.

53:31I often recommend a book called Holy Love by a guy named Steve Harper. He was an evangelical seminary professor who was like anti, you know, was not affirming sort of changes mind wrote this book, but he speaks evangelicalish in the book and it's super short.

53:51And so I always recommend people like read that as a way to like, this is how you can talk to people.

53:51And so I always recommend people like read that as a way to like, this is how you can talk to people.

53:57Then the other thing is I say, like, to invite the family members to notice the good things in their kid.

53:57Then the other thing is I say, like, to invite the family members to notice the good things in their kid.

54:11Right. So like, I get that you think that they're going to hell. I get that you, whatever it is, but I just want you to tell me a couple of things that you think are great about them.

54:11Right. So like, I get that you think that they're going to hell. I get that you, whatever it is, but I just want you to tell me a couple of things that you think are great about them.

54:26Right. And I want you to tell them whenever you see them, something that is really good about them, because what whatever you believe, you've got to know this is hard for them.

54:26Right. And I want you to tell them whenever you see them, something that is really good about them, because what whatever you believe, you've got to know this is hard for them.

54:39And they need people who love them to tell them good things about themselves. And so that's something I got from a psychology friend, because it's this shifting in perspective towards, I'm going to focus on the positive in them.

54:39And they need people who love them to tell them good things about themselves. And so that's something I got from a psychology friend, because it's this shifting in perspective towards, I'm going to focus on the positive in them.

54:55You know, noticing that. And so those are the sort of two paths that invite people to go to hell with that.

54:55You know, noticing that. And so those are the sort of two paths that invite people to go to hell with that.

55:03You know, it's not unlike what you said about how you felt about yourself, which was like, okay, well, this is like, even in that construct, which, you know, I reject the construct, the homosexuality is evil, but even within that construct.

55:03You know, it's not unlike what you said about how you felt about yourself, which was like, okay, well, this is like, even in that construct, which, you know, I reject the construct, the homosexuality is evil, but even within that construct.

55:19There's still room, at least in the Christian tradition, to say, I'm going to love this person and just see this thing as a sin that they're dealing with, or a sin that they, but that's on them. That's their thing.

55:19There's still room, at least in the Christian tradition, to say, I'm going to love this person and just see this thing as a sin that they're dealing with, or a sin that they, but that's on them. That's their thing.

55:32So I think the idea of inviting someone to remind themselves of the things that they love about the person and inviting them to remember their own sense of kindness and wanting, and their own sense of wanting to embrace and love people.

55:32So I think the idea of inviting someone to remind themselves of the things that they love about the person and inviting them to remember their own sense of kindness and wanting, and their own sense of wanting to embrace and love people.

55:48Right. And people that are family members better than I do. Yeah. And some of them have actually shared that statistic with them and said, look, you can believe what you want to believe.

55:48Right. And people that are family members better than I do. Yeah. And some of them have actually shared that statistic with them and said, look, you can believe what you want to believe.

56:00But if you tell them this, it's twice as likely they're going to want to kill themselves. And I know that you don't want to be responsible for that. Right. So why don't we set the bar at only sharing beliefs that don't make them want to kill them.

56:00But if you tell them this, it's twice as likely they're going to want to kill themselves. And I know that you don't want to be responsible for that. Right. So why don't we set the bar at only sharing beliefs that don't make them want to kill them.

56:16Right. It's a low bar, but I feel like we can clear it. Yeah. Right. That's.

56:16Right. It's a low bar, but I feel like we can clear it. Yeah. Right. That's.

56:23Now you've mentioned your book and you talked a little bit about it earlier. What can you tell us about the book? Yeah.

56:23Now you've mentioned your book and you talked a little bit about it earlier. What can you tell us about the book? Yeah.

56:30It's called, because you're on it. You're at the tail end of a book. Yeah. Our book tours are interweaving. Right.

56:30It's called, because you're on it. You're at the tail end of a book. Yeah. Our book tours are interweaving. Right.

56:38I'm ending as you're beginning. We're going to have a rumble. We're going to have a book rumble at some point. We're going to meet up in Portland.

56:38I'm ending as you're beginning. We're going to have a rumble. We're going to have a book rumble at some point. We're going to meet up in Portland.

56:45That's right. The book is called, How to Not Suck as a Christian. I know it's a split infinitive. It's a how-to book.

56:45That's right. The book is called, How to Not Suck as a Christian. I know it's a split infinitive. It's a how-to book.

56:54I think it's okay to split it. Right. No, I agree. We don't believe in dogma about language either, so I think it's okay.

56:54I think it's okay to split it. Right. No, I agree. We don't believe in dogma about language either, so I think it's okay.

57:00Except for the Oxford comma.

57:00Except for the Oxford comma.

57:02Prescriptism is right out. That's right. The official position of the data over Dovah podcast, apart from the necessity of the Oxford comma, is the script is right.

57:02Prescriptism is right out. That's right. The official position of the data over Dovah podcast, apart from the necessity of the Oxford comma, is the script is right.

57:13Not even necessity, just the obvious utility. The obvious correctness. Right.

57:13Not even necessity, just the obvious utility. The obvious correctness. Right.

57:19Yes. So the book grew out of this community. And somebody said, you should write a book that helps Christian not suck.

57:19Yes. So the book grew out of this community. And somebody said, you should write a book that helps Christian not suck.

57:30And so I tossed it back. And I said, what if we write this book? What would the chapters be? And so I got like a hundred chapter.

57:30And so I tossed it back. And I said, what if we write this book? What would the chapters be? And so I got like a hundred chapter.

57:39It is really interesting to me because, I mean, some of the comments were snarky for sure.

57:39It is really interesting to me because, I mean, some of the comments were snarky for sure.

57:44But a lot of the comments were authentically out of these people's pain, right? And really would like Christians to not do this.

57:44But a lot of the comments were authentically out of these people's pain, right? And really would like Christians to not do this.

57:56And so, you know, it says, like one of the chapters is respect atheists. They're doing fine. Right.

57:56And so, you know, it says, like one of the chapters is respect atheists. They're doing fine. Right.

58:07And, you know, stop the homophobia. Racists leaders have to go stop making kids sign purity pledges.

58:07And, you know, stop the homophobia. Racists leaders have to go stop making kids sign purity pledges.

58:16Take the Bible seriously, not literally.

58:16Take the Bible seriously, not literally.

58:20Oh, that's a good one. I actually have a rainbow sticker of that. Yes.

58:20Oh, that's a good one. I actually have a rainbow sticker of that. Yes.

58:24Yeah. And it's a yellow cover with big black letters. How do not suck as a Christian?

58:24Yeah. And it's a yellow cover with big black letters. How do not suck as a Christian?

58:29And it's, we, I did this thing when, because I'm petty and I don't, I don't, I don't apologize for that.

58:29And it's, we, I did this thing when, because I'm petty and I don't, I don't, I don't apologize for that.

58:39We did this thing when I was offering the signed copies where they could pay like five bucks more.

58:39We did this thing when I was offering the signed copies where they could pay like five bucks more.

58:44I'd send them a second copy of the paperback.

58:44I'd send them a second copy of the paperback.

58:47If they agreed to leave it in a place in a church that needed it and take a picture and tag me in it.

58:47If they agreed to leave it in a place in a church that needed it and take a picture and tag me in it.

58:56I love it. I love it.

58:56I love it. I love it.

58:58That's been a fun marketing, I mean, it's, yeah, it's good.

58:58That's been a fun marketing, I mean, it's, yeah, it's good.

59:03I'm guessing that some of our listeners might want to do that.

59:03I'm guessing that some of our listeners might want to do that.

59:06I'm guessing you might, you might get a few, get a few of those.

59:06I'm guessing you might, you might get a few, get a few of those.

59:10What I hear a lot from people about my forthcoming book is they say they're going to, they're going to give it to family for thanksgiving.

59:10What I hear a lot from people about my forthcoming book is they say they're going to, they're going to give it to family for thanksgiving.

59:18For Christmas or, you know, leave it under the, the mats of people they know right in their community.

59:18For Christmas or, you know, leave it under the, the mats of people they know right in their community.

59:27And I imagine you got even more of that.

59:27And I imagine you got even more of that.

59:29Sticking it in the shoes. Yeah.

59:29Sticking it in the shoes. Yeah.

59:31Exactly. There you go.

59:31Exactly. There you go.

59:33Yeah, I, you know, it's funny. I have a coworker that was really excited about the book and bought it.

59:33Yeah, I, you know, it's funny. I have a coworker that was really excited about the book and bought it.

59:39I took a picture holding it with me, sent it to their parent who, in her words, sucked as a Christian.

59:39I took a picture holding it with me, sent it to their parent who, in her words, sucked as a Christian.

59:47And they're not, not straight. They're part of the LGBTQ community.

59:47And they're not, not straight. They're part of the LGBTQ community.

59:52Their parents have been questionable with that.

59:52Their parents have been questionable with that.

59:54And it's interesting when, when they send it, their parents said, I think I might need to read that book.

59:54And it's interesting when, when they send it, their parents said, I think I might need to read that book.

60:02And so she was telling that story in the office. And another person in the office, right afterwards, bought a book for her parent and gave it to her to mail.

60:02And so she was telling that story in the office. And another person in the office, right afterwards, bought a book for her parent and gave it to her to mail.

60:15And they've actually read it, which I love that.

60:15And they've actually read it, which I love that.

60:20Yeah, that's, that's got to be hugely gratifying.

60:20Yeah, that's, that's got to be hugely gratifying.

60:23Yeah, it's, I love it. It's, um, yeah, you know, I, the Ford was written by a friend of my name, Brian McLaren, and his writing has changed my life a thousand times over.

60:23Yeah, it's, I love it. It's, um, yeah, you know, I, the Ford was written by a friend of my name, Brian McLaren, and his writing has changed my life a thousand times over.

60:36So to have him say nice things about my writing, just, I got it.

60:36So to have him say nice things about my writing, just, I got it.

60:41And I was like weeping.

60:41And I was like weeping.

60:43But one of the things is like, if you're reading this book, or it's something like you're reading this book, then you might actually have the ability.

60:43But one of the things is like, if you're reading this book, or it's something like you're reading this book, then you might actually have the ability.

60:52To change your thinking or your actions and, uh, you know, and congratulations for like making that like is a, it's an unusual skill in the modern world or something like that.

60:52To change your thinking or your actions and, uh, you know, and congratulations for like making that like is a, it's an unusual skill in the modern world or something like that.

61:03Yeah. And, uh, yeah.

61:03Yeah. And, uh, yeah.

61:05Well, where can people get the book?

61:05Well, where can people get the book?

61:07Oh, everywhere.

61:07Oh, everywhere.

61:09Audible Amazon, hopefully bookshop.org, where if you go there, it works like Amazon, except you select a local bookstore.

61:09Audible Amazon, hopefully bookshop.org, where if you go there, it works like Amazon, except you select a local bookstore.

61:18And they get the profits instead of, um, instead of the big multinational corporation.

61:18And they get the profits instead of, um, instead of the big multinational corporation.

61:24Did you do the narration of the audio book?

61:24Did you do the narration of the audio book?

61:26I did.

61:26I did.

61:27It was super fun.

61:27It was super fun.

61:28I'd never done that before.

61:28I'd never done that before.

61:30Yeah.

61:30Yeah.

61:31And the whole process was, was really fun.

61:31And the whole process was, was really fun.

61:34I just, I just sent in pickups today for, uh, for my audio book.

61:34I just, I just sent in pickups today for, uh, for my audio book.

61:37And it was, it was so funny.

61:37And it was, it was so funny.

61:39Cause I, after like making recording audio and video of my career, they were kind of like, you're probably going to be old hat at this.

61:39Cause I, after like making recording audio and video of my career, they were kind of like, you're probably going to be old hat at this.

61:47I was like, I guarantee you, I know not right.

61:47I was like, I guarantee you, I know not right.

61:49But Dan will tell you, I am an idiot when it comes to most of this stuff, just like he tells me.

61:49But Dan will tell you, I am an idiot when it comes to most of this stuff, just like he tells me.

61:54Um, but, uh, it went so smoothly and it was funny.

61:54Um, but, uh, it went so smoothly and it was funny.

61:58The director was like, I, I don't have to interrupt you near as much as, as normal.

61:58The director was like, I, I don't have to interrupt you near as much as, as normal.

62:03And, and, um, I had like six or seven lines for pickups.

62:03And, and, um, I had like six or seven lines for pickups.

62:07They were like, this isn't a lot.

62:07They were like, this isn't a lot.

62:08So why don't you just, we don't even to involve the director.

62:08So why don't you just, we don't even to involve the director.

62:11You can just take care of it yourself.

62:11You can just take care of it yourself.

62:12Yeah.

62:12Yeah.

62:13I had the same experience.

62:13I had the same experience.

62:14Oh, really?

62:14Oh, really?

62:15Yeah.

62:15Yeah.

62:16Which is weird cause I, I don't read the same way as a talk.

62:16Which is weird cause I, I don't read the same way as a talk.

62:23Yeah.

62:23Yeah.

62:24Yeah.

62:24Yeah.

62:25And I, like I had an experience recording something 10 years ago.

62:25And I, like I had an experience recording something 10 years ago.

62:28Mm hmm.

62:28Mm hmm.

62:29I wrote an article for an LDS journal and they were like, we like to provide an audio version and our, our, our audience likes it to be the person who wrote the article.

62:29I wrote an article for an LDS journal and they were like, we like to provide an audio version and our, our, our audience likes it to be the person who wrote the article.

62:38So can you record this?

62:38So can you record this?

62:39And it took me an entire afternoon to do just a little article and I hated every second.

62:39And it took me an entire afternoon to do just a little article and I hated every second.

62:44Right.

62:44Right.

62:46I was kind of nervous about this, but on the other side of several years of, of speaking into a microphone for a living, I guess I kind of developed some, uh, just some remedial competence doing this, um, which Dan is I'm sure surprised to, to hear and be a little incredulous.

62:46I was kind of nervous about this, but on the other side of several years of, of speaking into a microphone for a living, I guess I kind of developed some, uh, just some remedial competence doing this, um, which Dan is I'm sure surprised to, to hear and be a little incredulous.

63:01Not at all.

63:01Not at all.

63:02I was, I was sure to speak right into the microphone the entire time.

63:02I was, I was sure to speak right into the microphone the entire time.

63:06Congratulations.

63:06Congratulations.

63:07That's great.

63:07That's great.

63:08Yeah.

63:08Yeah.

63:09I can be taught.

63:09I can be taught.

63:10Well, okay, so the book, where else can people find you?

63:10Well, okay, so the book, where else can people find you?

63:14Where, how do they track you down on the apps and the whatnot?

63:14Where, how do they track you down on the apps and the whatnot?

63:18Sure.

63:18Sure.

63:19I'm skeptic dot pastor at Instagram, YouTube and TikTok.

63:19I'm skeptic dot pastor at Instagram, YouTube and TikTok.

63:23Uh, the podcast is called unbelief and, you know, just search unbelief.

63:23Uh, the podcast is called unbelief and, you know, just search unbelief.

63:29It's not, there's not other podcasts that come up.

63:29It's not, there's not other podcasts that come up.

63:31Um, and then the not church community.

63:31Um, and then the not church community.

63:34Uh, so it's a spiritual community, but we all have all kinds of trauma around people asking us for a percentage of her income.

63:34Uh, so it's a spiritual community, but we all have all kinds of trauma around people asking us for a percentage of her income.

63:44So we don't do that is pay for what you get.

63:44So we don't do that is pay for what you get.

63:47And so it's three bucks a month is Patreon.

63:47And so it's three bucks a month is Patreon.

63:50And we just say, like, look, three weeks a month, if I'm working, just stop paying and you're, you're done.

63:50And we just say, like, look, three weeks a month, if I'm working, just stop paying and you're, you're done.

63:56Um, and, uh, and so that's patreon.com slash skeptic pastors.

63:56Um, and, uh, and so that's patreon.com slash skeptic pastors.

64:04I mean, patreon.com slash skeptic pastor.

64:04I mean, patreon.com slash skeptic pastor.

64:05Okay.

64:05Okay.

64:06Great.

64:06Great.

64:07Well, I'm sure we'll have some people go and check it out.

64:07Well, I'm sure we'll have some people go and check it out.

64:09Jeremy Steele, thank you so much for joining us.

64:09Jeremy Steele, thank you so much for joining us.

64:11Absolutely.

64:11Absolutely.

64:12Thank you.

64:12Thank you.

64:13A big fan of the podcast.

64:13A big fan of the podcast.

64:14Oh, thank you.

64:14Oh, thank you.

64:15Uh, if you people at home are a big fan of the podcast, you can become one of our patrons while you're, you know, since you're over there, check it out.

64:15Uh, if you people at home are a big fan of the podcast, you can become one of our patrons while you're, you know, since you're over there, check it out.

64:24The, the, the, the, the skeptic pastor thing, you can come over to patreon.com slash data over dogma and, uh, join up as a, as a patron of hours.

64:24The, the, the, the, the skeptic pastor thing, you can come over to patreon.com slash data over dogma and, uh, join up as a, as a patron of hours.

64:35That would be great.

64:35That would be great.

64:36Uh, you can get early access and add free access to every episode as well as, uh, we do.

64:36Uh, you can get early access and add free access to every episode as well as, uh, we do.

64:44Are you going to join us for the after party?

64:44Are you going to join us for the after party?

64:47Yeah.

64:47Yeah.

64:48We do it after party.

64:48We do it after party.

64:50Yeah, there's a, there's bonus material bonus content every single week.

64:50Yeah, there's a, there's bonus material bonus content every single week.

64:54Uh, over there.

64:54Uh, over there.

64:55There's scotch at the after party.

64:55There's scotch at the after party.

64:57There is scotch at the after party.

64:57There is scotch at the after party.

64:58Are we, one of our episodes types types is called drinks and deconstruction.

64:58Are we, one of our episodes types types is called drinks and deconstruction.

65:02Yes.

65:02Yes.

65:03I love it.

65:03I love it.

65:04There, there hasn't been, but now today there is.

65:04There, there hasn't been, but now today there is.

65:06So yeah, absolutely.

65:06So yeah, absolutely.

65:08Uh, and also if you would like to reach us, it's a contact at data over dogma pod.com.

65:08Uh, and also if you would like to reach us, it's a contact at data over dogma pod.com.

65:14Thanks everybody.

65:14Thanks everybody.

65:16Bye everybody.

65:16Bye everybody.

65:17See ya.

65:17See ya.

65:18Data over dogma is a member of the air wave media network.

65:18Data over dogma is a member of the air wave media network.

65:25It is a production of data over dogma media LLC copyright 2025.

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