Ep 131: You Want a Boat? I Noah Guy

00:00- He built the arc out of Go for Wood.

00:05Maybe there was some shit him.

00:06- I'm hoping for shit him, that's my wood right there.

00:10- Yeah, shit him real good.

00:11- I'm gonna have biblical wood.

00:13It's gonna be shit.

00:15- Let's move quickly past what I just said.

00:19(laughing)

00:21(upbeat music)

00:23- Hey everybody, I'm Dan McClellan.

00:26- And I'm Dan Beecher.

00:28- And you're listening to the Data Overdogma podcast

00:31where we increase public access

00:33to the academic study of the Bible and religion

00:35and we combat the spread of misinformation about the same.

00:39How go things this time around, Dan?

00:42(laughing)

00:43- We're having fun here at the Data Overdogma podcast

00:47where you and I have already recorded this.

00:51- Yes, but recorded and lost.

00:54- Yes, recorded and lost, we have suffered the terrors

00:59of technical difficulties, but you don't have to experience

01:04that dear listeners and viewers at home.

01:07- Yes, all new jokes this time around, I promise.

01:11- All you get from us is fresh content.

01:14We promise to attempt at very least not to skip anything

01:19just because we think we've covered it

01:21in our both, in our adult brains.

01:24So anyway, we're diving in.

01:28This week we're gonna be doing a textual healing

01:32and that is going, the healing that we're gonna be doing.

01:34- We have, we have got that feeling.

01:36- Yeah, well, and when I get that feeling,

01:39I need that textual healing.

01:42This one we're gonna be doing some Genesis,

01:44a little Genesis six action, which is six through eight.

01:49- Six, which is our good friend Noah and his shiny new boat.

01:54And then we're gonna, in the latter half of the show,

01:59we're gonna do a terrible parable.

02:02It's actually not that terrible.

02:03We'll see how we do it.

02:04We'll see how it goes.

02:05Yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:05- That's not the worst parable.

02:06- Consider the lilies is what I have to say about that.

02:10We'll get to some Luke down the road,

02:12but let's start as you and I already have Dan

02:18with textual healing.

02:20(upbeat music)

02:23And this week, like I said, it's Genesis six.

02:25It's, we're starting,

02:27but not the very beginning of Genesis six.

02:30- No, no, that begins with a sorted tale.

02:34The banalohim, the children of God,

02:37and those scrappy, Benota Dam,

02:40or daughters of humanity, they do their thing.

02:44And we've covered that before.

02:48- Yeah, we talked about that.

02:49And it made the Lord miffed.

02:53- Miffed?

02:54- He was not happy about it.

02:56But it's funny because the first four verses

03:00of chapter six feel almost entirely unrelated

03:05to the rest of what happens in chapter six.

03:08- I happen to think this is probably something

03:10that was tacked on closer to the end

03:12in an effort to give a better rationalization

03:15for God deciding to destroy everything that lives upon.

03:19- Oh, okay, so like people were reading it

03:21and they were going, why, but why though?

03:23There was, there's a flood, but why?

03:26And they're like, ah, you know, you remember how God's kids

03:30made it with ladies and...

03:33- And in the middle of this, we have God saying,

03:36you know what, people aren't gonna live as long after this.

03:40- Yeah, I don't want them around as long.

03:44- That's true, because just the one chapter before this

03:49is the list of all of the patriarchs

03:51and it's like, so-and-so lived 800 years

03:55and then so-and-so lived, you know.

03:57They all lived, and matter of fact,

03:59the last paragraph or the last bit in chapter five

04:04is it says, and Noah, you know,

04:08young Noah sewed his oats for 500 years,

04:12wild away those first 500 years of youth

04:15and then finally decided-

04:16- With the boys, just out gambling party all night long.

04:21- Finally decided to settle down at 500 at the young age

04:25of 500 in the last kids.

04:26- No more party buses out to Wendover for those of you

04:31who are familiar with Salt Lake City.

04:34- And if you are a Utahn and you push real hard,

04:38maybe we can do a data over Dogma fun bus to Wendover.

04:43That would be actually a lot of fun.

04:46- I think that would be a lot of fun.

04:48- Yeah, we should do that.

04:49- I think I would have, every time though,

04:52every time I'm in a casino and, you know,

04:55we go down to California a lot.

04:58We always stop in Vegas,

04:59that's where we usually spend the night.

05:01And like, you know, and they smoke like crazy

05:05and the casino's down there.

05:06I get the worst headache from cigarette smoke.

05:09- Oh.

05:10- So yeah, that, that kills me.

05:12But yeah, I think that would be fun.

05:14It's been a long time.

05:15It's been a long time since I've,

05:17I've hit up the, the, the hold 'em table.

05:20- Yeah, there you go.

05:22- Okay.

05:22- All right.

05:23- But anyway, yeah, we're gonna do it like Noah did.

05:26- Yeah, okay.

05:27- And during his first 500 years.

05:30- Yeah, but then he, he settles down.

05:32He has Shem Ham and J. Fifth,

05:35one after the other real quick,

05:36just getting them out of the way.

05:39- Right.

05:40- Just so that all-

05:42- We're not here to talk about that, no, no.

05:43- We're not here to just tell the story of, of Noah

05:46and the Ark.

05:47Most people know it.

05:48Although, as you pointed out in one of your recent videos,

05:51recent to me, not to the people listening to this

05:54'cause it's not weeks, it takes us a little bit.

05:58- This episode will never see the light of it.

06:00- This is never gonna happen anyway.

06:01So you guys are fine.

06:03But yeah, you pointed out that there's,

06:06there's a lot of like, there's this misunderstanding

06:09that Noah tried to preach to the people

06:15and say repent and all this stuff.

06:17That ain't in here.

06:19- No, no, not to be found.

06:20And the whole idea that the people mocked Noah

06:23and they were like, stupid boat.

06:25- Yeah, not, also not in here.

06:28- Yeah, I was surprised by that.

06:30As I was reading, I was like, hey,

06:32that's a really, that's a part of the story

06:35that seems important, but it's not there.

06:39- Yeah, I think the Sibaleen oracles

06:41are the first place where it talks about Noah preaching.

06:45And then we have in the New Testament,

06:47Second Peter somewhere, I think it calls him

06:49preacher of righteousness.

06:50And so, traditions just kind of grew up around that.

06:54But, but today we, we're gonna talk about

06:59the way the story seems to kind of repeat itself,

07:03but in slightly different ways.

07:05- Yeah, it's confusing.

07:06If you, if you're, if you pay too much attention,

07:10it's a head scratcher.

07:11- If you just 'cause it kind of goes back and forth.

07:14- Yeah.

07:15- You'll be, you'll, you'll feel like you,

07:17you'll, you'll feel like you've circled around a bit,

07:21but, but it's fine.

07:24But yeah, if you pay a lot of attention,

07:25or if you do as I did and try to like catalog,

07:29how long, like get the timeline down?

07:31- Oh, no, you can't do that, no.

07:32- You're gonna get confused.

07:34- Yeah.

07:34- Which I learned the hard way.

07:36- Yeah.

07:37- So, let's get into it. - Let's get into it.

07:38- Yeah, we're gonna start in, in verse five.

07:41And I wanna start by pointing out that in verses five

07:44through eight, we're gonna be talking about the Lord.

07:47And that's the small caps Lord.

07:49I have yet figured out how to pronounce it in a way

07:52that communicates that this is written in small caps.

07:55But it is, so this is a-

07:59- You don't know how to say small,

08:01how to say something in small caps?

08:04- No, no, no, no, not yet.

08:05I'm figuring it out 'cause I don't,

08:07for those of you who read comic books,

08:10like Thor, every time they represent Thor speaking,

08:14the typeface is different from everybody else's dialogue.

08:19- Oh, I didn't know that.

08:20- And so, yeah, in like every Thor comic.

08:23And so, if he turns up in a Captain America comic

08:28and it's Thor, the typeface for his dialogue bubbles

08:33will be different from everyone else's.

08:35- You know why?

08:36It's because he's an Australian doing an English accent.

08:38(laughs)

08:40- Well, he's an Asgardian, he's a god,

08:42but you can't do that in the movie.

08:46So, you could do a little auto-tuning

08:49and do something fun with that.

08:51But anyway.

08:52- You can echo me or something, but that'd be annoying.

08:54- Yeah, yeah.

08:55- So, we have the Lord.

08:57You're gonna say, "The Lord!"

08:57Here's what you're gonna do.

08:59And just go up like that, and then, please don't do that.

09:04- Okay.

09:05- But Lord, what you're saying is that

09:06when it's the small caps Lord,

09:11what that would be, that's a rendering of-

09:13- That's a substitution for the tetragrammaton.

09:16Yoda, hey, hey.

09:17- Right, okay, so it's the name of that specific god.

09:22- Yes, so the Lord saw that the wickedness

09:26of humans was great in the earth,

09:28and that every inclination of the thoughts of their heart

09:30was only evil continually, and the Lord was sorry

09:35that he had made humans on the earth,

09:37and the word here for sorry in Hebrew

09:42can just as accurately be translated, he regretted,

09:46that he made humans on earth, and it grieved him to his heart.

09:50So the Lord said, "I will blot out from the earth

09:54"the humans I have created, people together with animals,

09:57"and creeping things, and birds of the air,

09:59"for some reason the fish get a pass."

10:02- 'Cause he couldn't figure out how to drown a fish.

10:05- "For I am sorry that I have made them,

10:08"but Noah found favor in the sight of the Lord."

10:13So that's five through eight.

10:15We've got, we basically have the introduction

10:18of God's displeasure with the state of the earth.

10:23- With every living thing on the earth.

10:26- Every breathing piece of flesh on the earth,

10:30the Lord is unhappy with.

10:32- That just sounds like bad creatoring.

10:36Like you created him, why are you,

10:38just make him better next time, I guess, I don't know.

10:40- And the animals in the creeping things,

10:42it doesn't seem like they did anything.

10:44- What do they do?

10:45- What's their, what's the problem with them?

10:48What did I ever do to you?

10:49- And then we get to verse nine.

10:52Now, suddenly some things are gonna change.

10:56These are the descendants of Noah.

10:58Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation.

11:00Noah walked with God, and this is Elohim.

11:05And Noah had three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

11:07We already had those three sons.

11:11- So chapter five, verse 32, Noah became the father

11:16of Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

11:18Chapter six, verse 10, by the way,

11:21don't forget Shem, Ham, and Japheth,

11:23and then we're gonna get back to Shem, Ham, and Japheth

11:27in chapter nine, but here we're moving on.

11:31Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight,

11:34and the earth was filled with violence.

11:36We've been known.

11:39You told us this already, and God said to Noah,

11:44I have determined to make an end of all flesh,

11:48for the earth is filled with violence because of them.

11:50Now I'm going to destroy them, along with the earth.

11:54So a slightly different telling of what happened

11:58in the previous few verses, and then, and God's just like,

12:03so here's what I'm gonna need from you.

12:06I need you to build an arc out of--

12:10- We're gonna go to the boat. - We're gonna go to the boat.

12:13Yeah, let's do the boat plan.

12:15We're gonna go to plan boat.

12:16Cypress Wood, which you pointed out previously.

12:19- Yeah, in the last one, we had a whole thing.

12:22- Yeah, I had a whole thing about Gopher Wood.

12:24- Gopher Wood, yeah, 'cause yeah, that's what,

12:28that's how the KJV renders it, and we--

12:30- Yes, yes.

12:31- Went off on a tangent about a guy who--

12:33- I think the guy who thinks that Noah's arc,

12:36well, that the Garden of Eden was way down yonder

12:40at the Chattahoochee, because he says,

12:44you know, there's only one place in all the world

12:46where Gopher Wood grows, and it's in Florida,

12:49and like Florida, Georgia, around there.

12:53- Which is not wrong, he's just wrong that like--

12:55- It's just, yeah, the tree was named after the biblical story.

12:59It's not that the biblical story prophesied

13:04that there would be a tree one time that would--

13:06- Which, by the way, put a pin in the idea

13:08of naming a thing after the biblical story,

13:11and then people getting that confused with the real things.

13:13- Oh yeah, we're gonna--

13:14- Later when we get to a certain mountain,

13:16we're gonna have some words.

13:19- And for those of you who are not from Utah,

13:21Dan just said the word mountain.

13:23I hear an awful lot that using a glottal stop

13:28in place of a tea there drive some people--

13:31- Well, okay, now don't get me started on this,

13:33because the thing, the Utah, like saying mountain is fine,

13:37saying mountain, which is how a lot of Utah is done say it,

13:41is what should drive people crazy, but you know that.

13:44- It's just dialects, it's fine.

13:46- I don't hear that.

13:47- There's no right and wrong way to say words.

13:50- Exactly right, we are staunch descriptivists

13:54at the day to overdog my podcast.

13:56But speaking of gopher would, my job title,

14:00one of my first jobs was,

14:02my dad was a general contractor, and I was his gopher.

14:05And are you familiar with that job?

14:07- Yeah, yeah.

14:08- Yes, the gopher goes for stuff.

14:10- Yeah, go for this, go for that.

14:11- I need you to go for this, go for that.

14:13Yeah, so I was his gopher, so that was my first job.

14:16But anyway, God tells Noah, you're gonna build this arc.

14:19You're about yay big, about yay long.

14:22You know, there's some timber over there.

14:24To be clear, I was really back.

14:25- Just so that, you know, I did look it up

14:27and it's about the size of a small container ship.

14:31But over 100 feet, even on the smallest estimate

14:36of a qubit, well over 100 feet longer

14:40than any wooden boat that has ever been able

14:43to actually see where the has ever been.

14:46So I don't know how powerful gopher would is

14:50'cause it doesn't exist anymore,

14:52but apparently it was a pretty impressive wood.

14:56- Yeah, but then we're going,

14:59we're coming back to the story in verse 17,

15:01and I love how the NRSVUE starts this part off.

15:04God just says, here's how you're gonna make the arc.

15:07And for my part, I am going to bring a flood

15:12of waters on the earth to destroy from under heaven

15:15all flesh in which is the breath of life.

15:17So he's like, well you're doing that.

15:19I'm gonna kill everybody.

15:20- Your job boat, my job, mass murder.

15:23- Yes, but I will establish my covenant with you,

15:26every living thing off.

15:28Okay, and then verse 19,

15:29and of every living thing of all flesh,

15:31you shall bring two of every kind into the arc

15:36to keep them alive with you.

15:38They shall be male and female,

15:40of the birds according to their kinds

15:42and of the animals according to their kinds,

15:44of every creeping thing on the ground,

15:46according to its kind,

15:48two of every kind shall come into you to keep them alive.

15:52No distinction between clean and unclean.

15:54It's birds, creeping things, animals.

15:58- Two.

15:59- Of every single one.

16:00- Two of everything.

16:01- Which by the way, also it does say male and female,

16:04but if you consult literally any children's Bible book,

16:07there will be two male lions.

16:09- Two male lions, you gotta have the main.

16:11It's not a lion if you don't see the main.

16:13- Yeah.

16:14(laughing)

16:16- 'Cause then it's just, you know, you don't know,

16:18is that a mountain lion?

16:19Is it a tiger?

16:19- Yeah, I don't know what that is.

16:20- Are those the same thing?

16:22(laughing)

16:24Also take with you of every kind of food

16:26that is eaten and store it up

16:27and it shall serve as food for you and for them.

16:30Noah did this, he did.

16:31All that God commanded him.

16:33So if we go all the way back to the beginning

16:35of God commanding Noah,

16:36he built the arc out of Gopherwood.

16:41Maybe there was some shit him.

16:43- I'm hoping for shit him.

16:44That's my wood right there.

16:46- Yeah, shit him real good.

16:48- I'm gonna have biblical wood.

16:49It's gonna be shit.

16:51- Let's move quickly past what I just said.

16:55(laughing)

16:57(upbeat music)

17:00- So Noah did all of this.

17:03- Yeah.

17:04- Built the arc, got all the animals.

17:06All the animals are brought into the arc.

17:08All the food brought into the arc.

17:10- Yeah, it did.

17:11- And then we get to, it is did.

17:14- I got the arc did and then chapter seven starts.

17:17Oh, but notice, this was all God.

17:19This was all Elohim.

17:21Chapter seven starts.

17:22Then the Lord said to Noah,

17:25"Go into the arc, you and all your household for I've seen

17:28that you alone are righteous before me in this generation."

17:31So it's like, Noah takes years to build an arc

17:34and then God's like, I like the cut of your jibs.

17:37So I'm gonna allow you to live,

17:40even though I explained this all to you years ago.

17:43Take with you seven pairs of all clean animals,

17:47the male and its mate and a pair of animals

17:49that are not clean, the male and its mate

17:52and seven pairs of the birds of the air also,

17:54male and female to keep their kind alive

17:57on the face of all the earth.

17:59For in seven days, I will send rain on the earth

18:01for 40 days and 40 nights.

18:03And every living thing that I have made,

18:05I will blot out from the face of the ground.

18:07And Noah did all that.

18:09The Lord had commanded him.

18:12And so now we basically get the same instructions over again.

18:16Except we've changed the number of critters.

18:19Yes, yes.

18:20So now it's 14 of all the clean animals.

18:24And notice he says,

18:25seven pairs of the birds of the air also.

18:30Yeah.

18:31Now he didn't say this particular type of bird.

18:34He doesn't say seven pairs of clean birds

18:37'cause they don't distinguish here,

18:40clean from unclean birds.

18:42And so when you look at the previous part

18:45where it says two of every kind of the birds,

18:49according to their kind.

18:50And here it's seven pairs of the birds of the air also.

18:54We have, it's a straight up contradiction.

18:56Right.

18:57It's two different versions of the exact same story.

19:00Also that's way too many birds.

19:02Lots of birds.

19:04Now we have way too many birds.

19:06Gonna have a lot of predatory birds in close quarters.

19:09It's gonna get uncomfortable.

19:11There's gonna be poop everywhere.

19:13It's gonna be noisy.

19:15It's gonna be so noisy.

19:16That's right.

19:17Oh my gosh.

19:18Oh my gosh.

19:19Just imagine being on that boat.

19:21Ken Ham, there's no chance.

19:23There's no way Ken Ham calm down.

19:26Can't even build a watertight arcan counter.

19:30Didn't it flutter something like that?

19:32There was water damage or something like that.

19:34Yeah.

19:35What did you call it?

19:36The testament to its own impossibility.

19:38Yeah, it's insane.

19:41The size of the thing is wildly impressive,

19:44but you get in there and you're like,

19:46oh, there's no way that any natural way

19:48could have possibly built this thing.

19:50Yeah, yeah.

19:51They didn't have cranes.

19:52They didn't have chains.

19:53Yeah.

19:54And it's, yeah.

19:55They very clearly had to use modern technology

19:58to get that thing built.

20:00Yeah.

20:01This is no Thor, Hiredall, Contiki.

20:05Like, say it could be done.

20:07It could be done.

20:08Yeah.

20:09No, if you put that thing on the water,

20:10it would twist and crack into a million pieces instantly.

20:14Yes.

20:16Now I want to move forward to chapter seven, verse 12.

20:20Okay.

20:21The rain fell on the earth 40 days and 40 nights.

20:26So that's it.

20:27And God says, I will send rain on the earth

20:32for 40 days and 40 nights.

20:34So we've got a timeline.

20:37Yeah.

20:38Now let's screw that timeline all up

20:40by going to the end of chapter seven, diverse 24.

20:44And it says, and the waters swelled on the earth

20:47for 150 days, which is not 40 days and 40 nights.

20:51It's not 40 days and then starting the first day

20:55of 40 nights.

20:56Like, is that just, that just adds up to 80.

20:59Yeah, that doesn't even get you to the 150.

21:01That's, you're not there yet at all.

21:03And what if you're saying, but Dan, but Dan,

21:07it says the waters swelled.

21:09So the rain could have stopped,

21:10but the waters could have kept on swelling.

21:13You know, the rain stopped when the waters were still a semi,

21:16but we need full encouragement.

21:21That was probably pushing it.

21:22But maybe that was just the,

21:25look, if we, if we go any further,

21:27I'm going to have to put a language advice

21:31already on our thing.

21:33So let's back it off of that.

21:35Yeah, so I know what you're thinking, Dan,

21:37the, the fountains of the deep are still just pumping

21:41that, that flew it into the waters.

21:44And, but that doesn't work with what we read in chapter eight,

21:49verse two, the fountains of the deep

21:51and the windows of the heavens were closed.

21:55The rain from the heavens was restrained.

21:59So this is the fountains of the deep and the rains from,

22:02so we got from the bottom up and from the top down,

22:04stops at the same time, waters gradually receded

22:09from the earth.

22:10So once the rains stopped, the waters start to recede

22:13at the end of 150 days, the waters had abated.

22:18So it's, it's another contradiction.

22:23We got two different timelines.

22:24We got 40 days and 40 nights of rain and it stops.

22:27Then we got 150 days of rain and then it stops

22:32and the waters abated.

22:34And then when you look at the dates also

22:37and in the seventh month on the 17th day of the month

22:41is how we have it at the beginning of chapter eight,

22:45but then later on, it's the first month

22:47on the first day of the month.

22:49And like scholars have compared the dates

22:52and been like these, these don't all make a lot of sense

22:55where why these, these particular dates are,

22:59they're, they're a little too scattershot.

23:01So, so yeah, we don't have agreements on what's going on

23:06with how long it was raining.

23:08- Yeah.

23:10- And then once the waters do abate the 10th month

23:14and the 10th month on the first day of the month,

23:16the tops, oh, the art came to rest, where?

23:19Dan--

23:21- On the mountains of Ararat which in our last recording,

23:29you were clear to point out that this isn't a mountain,

23:34but it is multiple ones.

23:36- Yes, yes.

23:37The Hebrew is quite clearly masculine plural construct.

23:40Ha-re, Ararat, which would just be the mountains of Ararat.

23:45So it's not identifying a specific mountain.

23:47It's identifying mountains within a region

23:51or a mountain range or something like that.

23:53And the mountain that is named Ararat that we have now

23:58if you look it up, that name only goes back a few hundred years.

24:03We have absolutely no clue where the mountains of Ararat

24:07were located according to the author of this text.

24:10So--

24:11- Yeah.

24:12So take that--

24:13- If anyone ever tells you that Noah's Ark

24:16is actually, has been discovered at the top

24:19of a mountain in Turkey that is called Ararat,

24:24you can laugh in their face

24:26'cause that's just silly and stupid

24:29and no, it hasn't shut up.

24:30- Laugh at them from the privacy of your own home

24:35over the internet, but if you're in person,

24:39laughing in their face might be a little cruel.

24:41- Okay, okay, that's true.

24:43But also maybe gently nudge them

24:46to look things up a little bit more.

24:48- Yes, it's--

24:49- Do a little bit better, more competent googling

24:53as Dan says.

24:53(laughing)

24:55- Google competently, or as the great poet once said,

24:59look harder.

25:02So then we get to verse six.

25:04We've got another interesting part of this tale.

25:08At the end of 40 days, Noah opened the window of the Ark

25:10that he had made and sent out the raven.

25:12And it went to and fro

25:14until the waters were dried up from the earth.

25:17So evidently the raven doesn't come back.

25:19- It's just to and froing.

25:22- Yeah, to fro.

25:24Can I sing that song?

25:25Probably not.

25:26Disney is quite litigious.

25:27- Yeah, let's not go there.

25:28- That's my understanding.

25:29Yes, and they're in a bad way right now.

25:32- Yeah, they're grumpy.

25:33Let's leave them alone.

25:36- Then he sent out the dove from him

25:38to see if the waters had subsided

25:40from the face of the ground.

25:41But the dove found no place to set its foot

25:44or its other foot.

25:45And it returned to him to the Ark

25:46for the waters were still in the face of the whole earth.

25:49So he put out his hand and took it

25:50and brought it into the Ark with him.

25:51He waited another seven days.

25:53And again, he sent out the dove from the Ark.

25:55And the dove came back to him in the evening.

25:58And there in its beak was a freshly plucked olive leaf.

26:02- Apparently on olive tree can survive 40

26:02So no one.

26:07and or 150 days underwater,

26:09which I don't think that's happening.

26:11I don't think that any of the foliage would do well with this.

26:16- And probably did not sprout and grow

26:18and have leaves in seven days.

26:21So then he waited.

26:24So no one knew that the waters had subsided from the earth

26:27and he waited another seven days and sent out the dove.

26:29And it did not return to him anymore.

26:32Just a raggedy man, Kevin Costner,

26:37drinking his own urine, looking for some dirt.

26:40Keep a little dirt under you in a jar for the dirt, man.

26:48- Can I just say that I love the movie "Waterworld"?

26:52This is a Gen X thing you guys have/early millennial thing,

26:57but yes, the movie "Waterworld" is a disaster

27:01for a set to finish. - A disaster, yes.

27:02- From before the start.

27:03- Oh my God. - Like making the movie

27:05was a disaster.

27:06- Everything about it is just so, so it's delightfully bad.

27:11And I may have to devote a good portion of our afterparty

27:16of our bonus content for our patrons to you

27:19and I just talking about "Waterworld",

27:21but we can't get into that now.

27:22- There are some unforgettable moments in that movie,

27:26even though it was a train wreck.

27:28- Okay, so to hear why you should watch the movie "Waterworld"

27:32and how to watch it well, tune in for the afterparty.

27:36Join up at the $10 a month level.

27:39- Yes, and if you were not aware,

27:40'cause we usually talk about it at the very end of the episode,

27:43we have a Patreon and there's bonus content

27:47and great reasons to sign up at whatever level

27:52makes sense to you.

27:53- Get over there.

27:54- Yeah, check it out. - It'll be fun.

27:56- Yeah, patreon.com/jatooverdogma.

28:00Okay, let's go on with that thing.

28:02- Verse 13, so the first thing that happens

28:05in what we just read though is,

28:07is no one basically opens up the window and is like,

28:09"Oh, look, it's water for far as the eye can see."

28:14- Which is funny, yeah, he stays in the boat.

28:17The boat comes to ground, it comes to rest on the mountain

28:20and he stays in the boat for like weeks,

28:23sending birds out to find olive leaves and stuff.

28:26- In the 600 first year, in the first month,

28:29on the first day of the month,

28:31the waters were dried up from the earth

28:33and Noah removed the covering of the ark

28:34and looked and saw that the face of the ground was drying.

28:37So now we're basically starting over Noah

28:41discovering what's going on.

28:43In the second month, on the 27th day of the month,

28:46the earth was dry.

28:48Then God said to Noah, "Go out of the ark,

28:53you and your wife and your sons and your son's wives

28:55with you."

28:56So we've basically got different beginnings,

29:00different middles and different ends.

29:01And this is what's called,

29:03these are what are called couplets,

29:05where you have a narrative element

29:09that gets repeated in close succession.

29:11And there's been a lot of research

29:14on how literature grows, literature that gets passed down

29:19and anthologies of literature,

29:21how they grow, how they accrete new things,

29:24how they get cobbled together.

29:26Starting way back in the ancient world,

29:28a lot of the Sumerian texts,

29:29we have things like the Epic of Gilgamesh

29:31and other literature that gets new pieces added

29:36to it and stuff like that.

29:37We have the Qumran literature,

29:39what they call the sectarian literature,

29:41which is the specific group there,

29:44saying, "Here's what our group's gonna do."

29:46And that grows and it accretes new details and stuff.

29:49The Deatesseron, which is not a glowing cube

29:53that gives you divine powers or anything like that.

29:56- I was thinking it was the book from the evil death series.

30:00- I think Necronomicon is what I believe that was.

30:02- Oh, okay, those are the same.

30:03- That one was close at the same.

30:05- Yeah, and oh gosh, Clatu brought a nikto.

30:07That nikto, was that the word?

30:09I've pronounced it wrong, so things are gonna go bad for me.

30:13But the Deatesseron is a harmony

30:18of the four gospels done by Tayshin, round 171, 80 CE.

30:23But anyway, scholars have looked at these collections

30:26of literature that have grown over centuries

30:29and taken note of features of texts

30:33that have been cobbled together

30:34from different pre-existing sources.

30:37And one of the things that happens a lot is you get couplets.

30:40And that is where you have a literary element,

30:45a narrative element that seems to be repeated

30:47but in a slightly different way.

30:49It's not that it's like, it was a dark and stormy night

30:54and I was driving my car in the rain,

30:58it's like not exactly the same.

31:01But you set the stage and then you set the stage again.

31:05You introduce somebody, then you introduce somebody again.

31:08Somebody is given a charge,

31:10then somebody is given a charge again.

31:12So this is what you have in Genesis six through eight.

31:16And this is what leads a lot of scholars to conclude

31:18that this flood story, as we have it now,

31:21is the product of two different Tails in the rain,

31:26different Tails of the deluge, the flood

31:30that have been woven together.

31:33In a, not totally clumsy

31:38but also not totally erudite way.

31:41So that we do run into these narrative inconsistencies,

31:45these chronological inconsistencies

31:48and these, these repetitions.

31:50- And direct contradictions sometimes.

31:51- And direct contradictions, yeah, yeah.

31:54And you know, you see this in Genesis one and two,

31:57the creation account that we get in the first part.

32:01Directly contradicts the creation count in the second part.

32:04But whereas in Genesis one and two,

32:06they just put them one after the other.

32:09Here, they've actually stitched them together.

32:12This is kind of a Frankenstein's monster of the flood story.

32:17You've got a big old scar going across the forehead

32:20and some bones in the neck

32:21and the flood. (laughing)

32:26But, and the two different stories, one is P

32:30and this is the priestly source.

32:34And so a lot of people will refer to the other version

32:39as J, the Yawwist, which is part of the JEDP

32:44source critical theory, which is prominent

32:47in the documentary hypothesis.

32:49I am among those scholars who think,

32:52maybe we shouldn't be talking about J and E

32:54as full documentary sources.

32:56Maybe we should just be talking about D, P and non P,

33:00whether that is pre P or post P.

33:04And I'm just, I am too immature for you to be talking

33:09about pre P and post P because that's just,

33:14my brain just goes to the wrong places for that.

33:16Yeah, I can't leave the house pre P.

33:20It's gotta be post P that I'm gonna get out of the house.

33:22I try to watch a movie.

33:23And then you got D, pre P, that's gonna be a disaster.

33:26Yeah, and then you've got the D, which stop it right now.

33:31So, and D is not a part of this.

33:35There's no D in this part of the story of Noah.

33:39Right, right.

33:41But we have these two different sources

33:44that are woven together.

33:45We get the same thing in the chapters right before.

33:47You've got Genesis one, two, and three.

33:49That's the creation stuff.

33:51And you got Genesis four and Genesis five.

33:52And those are both genealogies.

33:55And those are the same genealogy just told differently.

33:59But they have different numbers of people

34:03and they go in slightly different orders.

34:05But you've got a lomic and you got a lomic.

34:07You got a, you got an Enoch and you got an Enoch.

34:10You got a cane and you got a Canaan,

34:12which is just a diminutive that has been added to the name.

34:16And it's, so it's Kane and Kane Sito.

34:18Or Lil, Lil Cain.

34:21Lil Cain, yeah.

34:22That's my rep's name.

34:24Yes, it's spelled L-I-L.

34:25And although in the, in most English translations,

34:29it's transliterated K-E-N-A-N.

34:32So it's Keenan, who is hilarious.

34:36But so we've got a bunch of stories

34:42that are told in two different ways.

34:44And they're just jammed in here

34:46into what is known as the primeval history.

34:48Genesis one through 11.

34:51And you know, then when you get to,

34:53then we get to Genesis nine and we get the sorted tale

34:57of whatever happens with Noah and his three sons,

35:01which results in the cursing of somebody

35:04who's not even born yet.

35:06Right. So yeah.

35:07A lot of somebody's is not even born yet.

35:10Entire line of somebody's.

35:12Yes, Ham's son, Canaan.

35:16So, so what we've got basically here is the flood

35:20is a combination of two different sources.

35:23P and non-P.

35:26And that is why the flood story is hard to make sense of.

35:31That is why it doesn't, the story is not consistent.

35:34We run into these nerd. That's not why.

35:37The reason why it's hard to make sense of is because it,

35:39even if you harmonized both of the different sources,

35:43it doesn't make sense.

35:44It's a story that is physically impossible

35:48and doesn't make any sense.

35:50Yes.

35:51And if you're going to be literal about it,

35:54if you want to just be metaphorical

35:56or if you want to see it in some sort of a non-literal way,

36:00great, knock yourself out.

36:01Yeah, yeah.

36:03But anyway, yeah, I think, I think we did a good job with that.

36:07I'm already- Oh, yeah, yeah, stellar.

36:10That was exemplary work.

36:11Yeah, we're professionals and we're not at all really, really

36:16tired and just trying to get through this.

36:19All right, so let's move on to our next segment,

36:22which is terrible parables.

36:25[MUSIC PLAYING]

36:28Parable, terrible.

36:31All right, and this one might not be too terrible.

36:35No.

36:36This one is terrible if you are in the prosperity gospel.

36:45If you're a worshipper of Mammon, yes, maybe it's not so good.

36:51If you're in the sects of Christianity

36:54that are sort of more and more powerful in these United

37:00States that are all about making as much money as you can

37:05possibly make and heralding the wealthy as God's chosen elect.

37:11Yes.

37:11This parable is not for you.

37:13No, this is one of the ones that Charlie Kirk never quoted.

37:18This is the one that I just made a video responding

37:21to Milo Yiannopoulos.

37:22You remember that, dude?

37:24Oh, my gosh.

37:24I don't know what that is.

37:26He's the gay guy that won't say that he's now un-gay.

37:31Oh, I don't know what's going on.

37:33But some people were posting a video of his on Twitter,

37:37and I was like, this guy's back.

37:39But the video's from like 2023, I think.

37:42But it was getting a lot of attention.

37:44And we're founded as a Christian nation.

37:48America doesn't work without God.

37:50All this kind of crap.

37:52But this is a story that is not going to be quoted by him.

37:56Certainly not by Trump.

37:58Anyone, if you are a right-wing authoritarian,

38:01if you're into the whole social dominance orientation scene,

38:05if Christophacism sparks that tuning fork in your loins,

38:11this is not for you.

38:13But-- So ladies and gentlemen, please open--

38:16brothers and sisters, please open your books,

38:18or your scriptures to Luke chapter 12,

38:22is where we are here.

38:24Yes, and we're going to start in verse 13.

38:26We're going to read a bit.

38:33We're going to read down, I think, verse 34.

38:36But it starts off with somebody coming up

38:38and asking him a question.

38:39So someone in the crowd said to him, teacher.

38:44And now I'm thinking of George Michael's book.

38:46Tell my brother to divide the family inheritance with me.

38:53And--

38:55But he said to him, friend, who set me, friendo?

38:59Who set me to be a judge or arbitrator over you?

39:04And the question is really about--

39:06in this time period, the oldest son

39:08got the lion's share, if not the entire inheritance.

39:11Because if you divide it up, then one man's property,

39:15within a few generations, it's now

39:17divided up into 20 different pieces,

39:19and everybody's going their separate ways.

39:21So the idea is we want to keep it together.

39:24And so one person here is--

39:25And if you happen to be born second, tough titty, I guess.

39:30Is this one of them?

39:35Well, that's it.

39:36OK, I'm used to hearing plural, but fair enough.

39:41But a younger person could call on the Potter familius,

39:48the oldest, to give them their share of an inheritance,

39:54and they just leave.

39:56And they--

39:57Just break me off one piece of that KitKat bar,

40:00and I will go off and make my own way.

40:04Yeah, the story of the prodigal son,

40:05I think, is appealing to a very similar idea.

40:08Only there, the son is asking for his piece

40:11before the father kicks the bucket.

40:14But anyway, but Jesus is not my job.

40:21But he says to him, take care, be on your guard

40:26against all kind of greed, for one's life

40:28does not consist in the abundance of possessions.

40:33Then he told them parable.

40:36The land of a rich man produced abundantly.

40:39And he thought to himself, what should I do?

40:42I have no place to store my crops.

40:45And he said, I will do this.

40:46I will pull down my barns and build larger ones.

40:50And there, I will store all my grain and my goods.

40:53And I will say to my soul, soul you have ample goods laid up

40:58for many years.

40:59Relax, eat, drink, be merry.

41:03But God said to him, you fool.

41:06This very night, your life is being demanded of you.

41:09And the things you have prepared, who will they be?

41:13So it is with those who store up treasures for themselves

41:16but are not rich toward God.

41:20And I think the point here is that the guy who comes to him

41:25is like, I need my money.

41:27And it doesn't seem to be because he is poor.

41:32Like his brother is, he's on that property.

41:36He's probably fine.

41:39But it seems to be greed that is motivating this request.

41:43He runs off to get Jesus to tell his brother,

41:47pay me my money.

41:49And Jesus tells this parable about greed.

41:51And the idea here is basically that whether it's greed

41:54or whether you're concerned about your security,

41:59material possessions can be taken from you

42:02in the blink of an eye.

42:03You can die.

42:04And then you can die and then what good?

42:07What good is all of that?

42:08Yeah, you've done all of that.

42:09And he's saying, no, be rich towards God,

42:13not in material possessions.

42:16And then he goes into a little rant.

42:19Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life,

42:23what you will eat or about your body, what you will wear.

42:26For life is more than food in the body, more than clothing.

42:29Consider the ravens.

42:31They neither sow nor reap.

42:33They have neither store, house nor barn.

42:35And yet God feeds them of how much more valuable

42:38are you than the birds?

42:40And which of you by worrying can add a single hour

42:42to your span of life?

42:44If then you're not-

42:45Which is funny because I first read this in the KJV

42:50'cause I was-

42:50Oh yeah, on a weird thing.

42:51And it does not say hour who can add

42:54a single hour to your span of life.

42:57It says something about adding a qubit to your height,

43:00which I think that's crazy that those are very different.

43:04I mean, the point is the same.

43:06You can't add two things that are unaddable to of your life,

43:11but like that's nuts that there's such a wild difference

43:15between those two versions.

43:18Well, it looks like the NRSV has a note there saying,

43:23or add a qubit to your stature,

43:26which sounds kind of arbitrary.

43:28Why are you changing that?

43:30I don't think that, is there a textual reason for this?

43:35A qubit to his height,

43:36a qubit can measure length or time.

43:41What?

43:41Although day has been suggested.

43:45The term is ambiguous in the same way as peace.

43:50Most scholars take the term helechia

43:54to describe age or length of life here,

43:56although a few refer to it to bodily stature.

44:01Okay, well, there you go.

44:04So helechia.

44:06Yeah, so helechia.

44:07So it's to his helechion,

44:12who can add one qubit or hour?

44:16And so it really comes down to,

44:18does it mean add an hour to his life or a qubit to his height?

44:21Yeah, interesting.

44:23I love that, a qubit.

44:24Yeah, one qubit of time.

44:27You can't add a qubit of time to your thing.

44:31Yeah, which means that the arc was a hundred and something

44:36hours long. Hours high, tall.

44:40No, it's gotta be your bowl.

44:44Consider the lilies, how they grow.

44:47They neither toil nor spin.

44:48Yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory

44:53was not clothed like one of these.

44:55But if God so clothed the grass of the field,

44:58which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the oven,

45:00how much more will he clothe you?

45:03You of little faith.

45:04Can I ask you a question?

45:06Yes, you may.

45:07Did they eat lilies?

45:08Is that what I'm reading?

45:11No. It says, if God so thrown into the oven,

45:14the grass of the field, which is alive today

45:17and tomorrow is thrown into the oven.

45:19And I'm assuming that grass of the field,

45:21it's still talking about the lilies somehow.

45:24They're seeing that as a grass.

45:25I don't, it's a very confusing thing.

45:28I don't know what he's talking about.

45:29The only idea is that it gets dried up

45:31and it might be used as fuel,

45:33kindling or something like that.

45:35But no, they're not eating grass.

45:38They're not baking grass.

45:39They're baking grass.

45:40You can't-- The grass bakes.

45:42The grass is what bakes.

45:43Anyway, and they might get baked on grass, but--

45:47Yeah, that happened.

45:49We know that has happened.

45:51Just we know that that has happened.

45:54And do not keep seeking what you are to eat

45:57and what you are to drink.

45:57And do not keep worrying for it

45:59as the nations of the world

46:00that seek all these things

46:01and your father knows that you need them.

46:03Instead, seek his kingdom

46:04and these things will be given to you as well.

46:07Do not be afraid, little flockford,

46:08is your father's good pleasure to give you all the kingdom.

46:10I'm gonna pause here before I read the last two verses,

46:13but like poor folks today,

46:17this is not very helpful advice.

46:21No.

46:22It's like, hey, I can't afford food.

46:24Oh, consider the lilies, poor person.

46:26Stop worrying about food.

46:28It doesn't matter, it's fine.

46:30Yeah, you can't add a single hour to your height

46:33by worrying about, where am I going to get dinner

46:36for my children?

46:38So yeah, this is not helpful advice

46:41for people on one end of the socioeconomic spectrum.

46:45I suppose I was wrong earlier in saying that this is bad

46:49for the prosperity gospel people,

46:52because the end of this could be very much used

46:56by them to say, seek the kingdom

47:01and these things will be given to you,

47:03i.e. be faithful and you'll get rich too or something.

47:07Like that could be an interpretation of this.

47:11As long as you don't read verse 33.

47:14Yes, it could be-

47:15That's where it all kind of falls apart.

47:18If you stop at 31, you're golden.

47:22Yeah, but- Joel Osteen.

47:24But I think these things will be given to you as well.

47:27I think it is food to eat, close to wear.

47:31Right.

47:32I think it is-

47:33And the nessaries.

47:35And a cybertruck.

47:41I think it is food to eat, close to wear, and yeah.

47:45I'm thinking of the-

47:46True to the seashells.

47:47I'm thinking of the jerk now.

47:50He's like, I flew my friends to the Super Bowl

47:53and I'm a private jit.

47:55It cracks on the seat.

47:56I had to put towels on the seat.

47:58Not towels.

48:00But then we get to verse 33.

48:04Now a lot of people know the parable of the rich young ruler

48:07where he comes to Jesus and says,

48:09oh I've kept all the commandments from my youth.

48:11What lack I yet?

48:12And Jesus says, sell everything that you have

48:15and give the money to the poor.

48:16And people are like, that's not generalizable.

48:20That's just Jesus talking to one dude.

48:23And what he said was food.

48:25He said, you got it.

48:26Yeah, he has calmed down.

48:27But then we get to Luke 12, 33.

48:30So he's told this parable.

48:32He's explained what's going on.

48:33Do not be afraid, little flock.

48:35Or it is your father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

48:38Sell your possessions and give alms.

48:42Make purses for yourselves that do not wear out

48:44an unfailing treasure in heaven

48:46where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.

48:48For where your treasure is,

48:50there your heart will be also.

48:52So here we have Jesus quite explicitly telling his followers,

48:56not just one rich dude, but his followers,

49:00sell your possessions and give alms.

49:04In other words, give them money to the poor.

49:06And we get one more example of this

49:08when we get to the book of Acts,

49:10which is written by the same author as this story.

49:15Where they say that all of them,

49:19all of the followers of Jesus sold all that they had,

49:23they had all things in common,

49:25gave their possessions to the poor.

49:27So if you're a fan of Luke Acts,

49:30the prosperity gospel is not for you.

49:34Is troubling.

49:35And if you're a fan of the prosperity gospel,

49:38Luke Acts is not for you.

49:40Maybe just tear that bit out.

49:42You don't want it.

49:44That's not gonna be good for you.

49:46- Yes, it is your epistle of straw

49:49that you are just going to possibly.

49:52- And can I just say,

49:54giving alms does not mean giving to a millionaire pastor.

49:58That's not what that means.

49:59It doesn't mean give money so that,

50:02so that your guy can have another jet.

50:05Creflow dollar needs to fly.

50:08He can't fly commercial.

50:10That's not what we're talking about here.

50:11- Oh gosh.

50:12- So yeah.

50:14All right, well, there you go.

50:15I think we can leave it at that.

50:17That is a good parable for some,

50:20a bad parable for others.

50:21Not great for poor people.

50:23Also not great for prosperity gospel people.

50:28- Yes.

50:29It's kind of down the middle.

50:29- I kinda like it.

50:30(laughing)

50:32- The NRSVUE entitles this part of this chapter,

50:37the parable of the rich fool.

50:39- So that would be not the guy who comes up

50:39- Yeah.

50:42and asks Jesus to interfere in family matters.

50:47Not the TV show, but his own actual family matters,

50:49but the one God calls a fool.

50:53'Cause he has all the-

50:54- Yeah, the guy that's building bigger barns

50:58to store his stuff.

50:58- Yeah, he's like my golly, yeah.

51:00I need bigger barns to keep all this grain.

51:04I'm gonna go beat my wheat.

51:09- Beat somewhere that's bigger barn than your big barn.

51:12I need a big barn for my wheat.

51:15Okay, things are getting, we are getting slap happy.

51:18You're gonna probably want,

51:20now is the time to join our Patreon

51:23and come and check out this week's after party

51:26because Dan and I are totally off the rails right now.

51:31- Yes.

51:31- We're trying to hold it in for the watch.

51:34- My watch is like you're supposed to be asleep.

51:36So yeah, it's gonna get weird.

51:39- It's gonna get weird.

51:40So if you want to do that,

51:42you can go to patreon.com/dataoverdogma

51:45and sign up there.

51:46And that's what makes our show go

51:50and we love our patrons so dearly.

51:53Thanks so much to Roger Goudy for editing the show this week

51:56and we will talk to you again next week.

51:59- Bye everybody.

52:00(upbeat music)

52:03- Data Over Dogma is a member

52:05of the Airwave Media Network.

52:07It is a production of Data Over Dogma Media LLC,

52:10copyright 2025, All Rights Reserved.