Ep 102: The Dave Ramsey Takedown

00:00We've got a fever, and the only prescription is to sell everything that you own and give

00:06their money to the poor.

00:07Yeah, exactly.

00:08Cowbell.

00:09Hey, everybody.

00:10I'm Dan McClellan.

00:11And I'm Dan Beecher, and you're listening to the Data Over Dogma podcast where we increase

00:20public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion and combat the spread of

00:25misinformation about the same.

00:27How are things today, Dan?

00:29It's a good day for combatting misinformation, and we've got some combatant to do.

00:36Yeah, and also for...

00:37And a worthy opponent at that.

00:40Also a good day for coordinating with your typewriter.

00:44Your shirt seems to have some pink in it's, which is...

00:47You know, for those listening at home, that won't make a lot of sense.

00:51But if you're watching us on the YouTube, yes, I've got a little bit of pink in my shirt.

00:57I've got a pink typewriter behind me.

00:59Everything's coming up roses.

01:01And I'm just...

01:02I'm just wearing Wolverine as normal.

01:04So...

01:05As per you.

01:06Big fan of roses, though.

01:08Definitely.

01:09Yeah.

01:10Logan, all about the roses.

01:11Yeah, we're going to be combating some misinformation being spread by a very high profile individual.

01:17Yeah, it's one Mr. Dave Ramsey.

01:19We're going to...

01:20Oh, we're coming for Dave.

01:21I was trying to tease a little bit, tease it out, have him wondering, "Well, who is

01:25it?

01:26Dan's?"

01:27Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:28All right, fine.

01:29Okay, so...

01:30I...

01:31Yes.

01:32On this show, I'm definitely the expert.

01:34So our first segment is going to be a taking issue, because we are taking issue with Mr.

01:41Ramsey.

01:42And then we're going to do a "What is it?"

01:46And we're going to be talking about...

01:47What are we talking about?

01:48The Deuteronomynical...

01:49Wow.

01:50I think Deuteronomynical is the correct thing.

01:54Deuteronomynical... we probably can't sing that.

02:00Yeah, well, yeah.

02:02Deuteronomistic history.

02:03Yeah, okay.

02:04And the Deuteronomist and the Deuteronomistic school.

02:08And even a little bit about Deuteronomy.

02:10Okay.

02:11So, yeah.

02:12None of it has anything to do with the dude, though, unfortunately.

02:16So you...

02:17You...

02:18Lebowskiites can...

02:19We're not into the whole brevity thing, so...

02:22That's true.

02:23Yeah.

02:24That will save that for TikTok.

02:25Yeah.

02:26All right.

02:27Well, hey, let's launch in with take an issue.

02:34And this week, the issue we are taking is with one Mr. Dave Ramsey, who was made to feel

02:41quite...

02:43I'm just going to say he seems pretty defensive.

02:47Yes.

02:48He was asked a question on his show.

02:50For those of you who don't know, Dave Ramsey is a financial guru.

02:56He's a personal finance guy.

03:01His whole deal is that he'll teach you how to get out of debt and get rich.

03:06And my personal opinion of his approach is that it is not very realistic or effective,

03:13but that's neither here nor there, because the thing that makes him salient to our podcast

03:19is that he brands himself as the Christian personal finance guy.

03:26Yes.

03:27And that's weird.

03:28That's a weird thing to do.

03:30Well, I mean, there are others.

03:32He's not the only one who is like, "Jesus will help you get wealthy."

03:36Yeah.

03:37Mainly he's going to help me get wealthy, though.

03:39It does seem like every time someone says, "Jesus will help you get wealthy."

03:44They're the ones whose bank accounts seem to grow from it.

03:47Yes, yes, indeed.

03:48That's neither here nor there in terms of Dave Ramsey.

03:51Dave, so here's the deal.

03:53He's got a show.

03:54He's probably got multiple shows.

03:57And on a recent episode, he was asked about -- I'll just read the question, and then we

04:06can sort of go over how he answered.

04:13So the question was, how is it considered ethical for people to own so many houses?

04:19I was wondering how, as a Christian, this isn't seen as greed.

04:23Don't you know that buying up all these homes is what's causing the housing shortage?

04:28Now for those of you who aren't in the United States of America, I'm guessing this is happening

04:32all over the world.

04:33But there are some real problems happening in the housing sector here in the U.S.

04:40It's getting really dicey out there, and part of that is that, yeah, there are lots of people

04:48and organizations and companies that are buying up housing.

04:54And then rather than selling them, they're hoarding them and they'll rent them, but it's

05:02like it has become very difficult and very expensive to buy a house in the United States.

05:09There are a lot more houses that get purchased by investors, real estate investors, than

05:15by people who are going to live in those houses than has been the case in the past.

05:21And I think someone -- I saw another video where somebody said there are almost five -- there's

05:26a shortage of almost 5 million homes in the U.S., and there are more than 5 million homes

05:34that are owned by investors, folks who own multiple different properties.

05:42What is the one that they kept bringing up, BlackRock, Blackstone?

05:46Blackstone, yeah.

05:47Blackstone, yeah.

05:48Is an example of that.

05:50But it's so much fun.

05:52Yeah.

05:53So this is just an investment group that is finding ways to make money.

05:59And frankly, housing, it's fine to make a profit off of housing.

06:06That's not a problem.

06:07But when your model is to buy enough housing to be strong enough, some of these companies

06:14are so strong that they have the muscle to drive up all the prices of the homes that

06:24they've purchased just so that they can then sell them for more or have high rental costs.

06:31Yeah.

06:32And evidently, though, they're not the main drivers of the problem.

06:37What's funny about this video is Dave Immediate was like, that has nothing to do with the

06:44housing crisis.

06:46And then with some back and forth with the other person on the show, he was like, "Okay,

06:51maybe it has something to do with the housing crisis."

06:54But not as much as those idiots on TikTok say, and the other person's like, "You're on

06:58TikTok."

06:59And he's like, "It is amazing."

07:03Because his first response, the question is obviously meant to be a theological one.

07:09Yeah.

07:10Or an ethical one.

07:11Or an ethical one.

07:12Yeah.

07:13But it's framed in a Christian framework.

07:17And that is about greed.

07:18It's about...

07:20So maybe let's start with that.

07:22What do we know?

07:23What Bibles tell us about...

07:25We've talked about Jesus saying that wealth is bad.

07:30Yeah.

07:31I'll do you one better.

07:32Okay.

07:33We actually have in the Bible criticism of people who buy up properties.

07:36Oh, really?

07:37Yeah.

07:38And this goes back to the prophetic critique.

07:42So we've talked about this before on the show.

07:44In the eighth century, you had these kings who had like 40-year reigns, and there was

07:51a lot of growth, economic growth, there was a lot of population growth.

07:57They were trading internationally.

07:59The northern kingdom of Israel was doing well.

08:01You had new cities popping up all over the place.

08:04The southern kingdom of Judah was doing well.

08:07They didn't really have many cities.

08:08Mainly it was just Jerusalem was the main city.

08:11But you went from a subsistence society where you might have a handful of acres and you're

08:20growing stuff, and you're mainly growing enough to keep your household alive and then have

08:26a little extra to take down to the farmer's market on the weekend.

08:31And what you do is you diversify your crops so that if something happens and one crop goes

08:39south, it doesn't totally devastate you.

08:42And what happens when you start to get a lot more income and a lot more centralized control

08:49is in the eighth century it converted to what's called a command economy where the people who

08:55had the money and the people who were buying up the crops and controlling what was grown

09:00are telling you what to grow.

09:02And it was mainly olive oil, wine, things like that that are being shipped off, being

09:10sold internationally.

09:11And so your people who live in the big cities with all the money are directing what folks

09:17out in the fields are selling and they don't care about the diversification of the crops.

09:23And so it's a lot more dicey.

09:26You're a lot more vulnerable in a command economy.

09:29And also you're going to have to borrow money in the subsistence economy.

09:35Usually the population centers are smaller and you have survival loans that are, you

09:41know, meted out within a community and, you know, they might not charge interest.

09:46They might charge only a tiny bit of interest.

09:48They would say, you know, pay us back when you can.

09:51But with it, it's just to get you by for the for the six months until until your next crop

09:56comes in and you're able to sort of make things make this happen for yourself.

10:00In the command economy, you're getting loans from the wealthy people in the city centers

10:05who could not care less what happens to you and demand to be paid back in bullion, you

10:12know, when the when the crops are being harvested, when they're the least valuable, like everything

10:19works for the wealthy folks and against the the poor folks out in the field in a command

10:24economy.

10:25And this is what's happening.

10:26I'm glad we've got rid of that system.

10:29That doesn't sound like a good system at all.

10:31And then if you forfeit or if you, oh, shoot, I'm forgetting the way I'm not an economist

10:37as everybody already knows, but if you don't pay back your loan, they take over control

10:43of your property.

10:44And then guess what, you're working your own land just to give everything to the person

10:51who now owns your land.

10:53You've become basically a surf.

10:56You've been enslaved to your own own property and that just allows land consolidation and

11:02debt consolidation on the part of the wealthy folks.

11:04And so this creates huge social inequities.

11:08And this is what's going on in the eighth century.

11:09And you have the eighth century profits coming out hard against this.

11:13And so in Isaiah chapter five, you've got, well, and it starts in chapter one and the

11:20prophetic critique is where they're like, I hate your, your sacrifices and your offerings.

11:25And I do not delight in the blood of bulls and all this kind of stuff.

11:28And really the idea is you're all grinding the faces of the poor and then you're turning

11:32around and you're going to look how pious I am at the, the festivals and everything.

11:36And that's, and that's the height of sin.

11:39But in Isaiah five, he says, woe to those who join house to house who add field to field

11:45and tell, until there is room for no one.

11:47And you are left to live alone in the midst of the land.

11:51The Lord of hosts, a sworn in my hearing, surely many houses shall be desolate, large

11:55and beautiful houses without inhabitant for 10 acres of vineyard shall yield, but one

12:00bath and a Homer of seed shall yield a mere ephah.

12:04So basically he's threatening all the wealthy people who are out there, engaged in this land

12:11consolidation, who are exploiting the economy, who are taking advantage of the justice system,

12:16who are doing all these things to make themselves wealthy.

12:18And this tree wasn't talking about Florida, because this, this literally sounds exactly

12:23like Florida.

12:24Do you know how many homes are sitting vacant in Florida right now?

12:31I, all I think about it, when I hear vacancies is the wire, it's literally, it's like hundreds

12:38of thousands of homes.

12:39It doesn't surprise me.

12:40They're probably, you know, multi-million dollar homes to yeah, or they were.

12:46Good luck buying or selling them now.

12:48But this is the beating heart of the prophetic critique because it is wealth is all being

12:53centralized among a minority of the elite.

12:57And it is leaving the poor and the orphan and the widow and the oppressed out to dry.

13:03And so that's Isaiah and Micah and Amos and Jose, they're all just dragging the wealthy

13:11because they are doing precisely what Dave Ramsey is talking about.

13:17So even in the Hebrew Bible, we have direct condemnation of what Dave Ramsey is about

13:24to try to very pathetically defend.

13:28Yeah, because here's what he, what, what he comes back with for, he doesn't answer.

13:32He doesn't address the ethical question at all to start with.

13:39What he, what he first tries to do is say, no, people buying multiple homes is not what's

13:46driving the, the housing crisis.

13:48And then, you know, the, the woman that he's talking to says, well, what about Blackstone,

13:52as you said, and he goes, Oh yeah, well, Blackstone kind of is, yeah, that's kind of bad.

13:57And then he makes this weird thing that as though this somehow makes it, it makes a real

14:03differentiation.

14:04He's like, well, hedge funds don't have a soul, which, yeah, I guess, but like the guys

14:13that make the decisions there do, the people who profit off of them do the, like it, this

14:19thing isn't operating as an autonomous unit, the hedge funds don't like pop up out of the

14:25ocean fully formed and ready to make choices.

14:28Yeah, they're, they're run by people who profit off of them.

14:33Yeah.

14:34And, and as I mentioned to you earlier, it sounds like he's taking limited liability

14:38corporation a little too far as if, as if you're, uh, your moral culpability before God can

14:46be, uh, offloaded to your corporations, like it's not me who did this.

14:51It's, it's my LLC that did this.

14:54And that's clearly not a sentient entity.

14:56And so the, the culpability just dissolves like a fart in the wind.

15:01I can't be responsible for any of this.

15:04I like the idea of Dave Ramsey showing up to the pearly gates and showing his like articles

15:09of incorporation to, to St. Peter or whatever.

15:14Yeah.

15:15I, so here's the deal.

15:16He, he then goes on to say he says, you know, I own, I, I, I don't know, 15 to 20 houses

15:27among, and a bunch of a commercial real estate, which the thought of like not even knowing

15:32how many houses you own.

15:34Yeah.

15:35And then being like, well, the majority of the, the upcoming generation will never own

15:40right.

15:41A single home.

15:42Yeah.

15:43And he's like, I don't know.

15:44I got some.

15:45I don't know.

15:46Well, and, and also like he's talking about Blackstone, like it's this horrible thing.

15:49Um, dude, that's you.

15:51You just, that's who you are.

15:53If you own, if you own upwards of 20 houses and come on, if he's saying, uh, 15 to 20,

16:01yeah, it's more like 30 or 40.

16:03Uh, but yeah, he, and as well as commercial real estate, like you're, you're literally

16:09no different than Blackstone in that, at that point, uh, except in scale.

16:19And then, then he gets to the really juicy part.

16:22Um, and I want to, I want to go ahead and read this, um, and, uh, he says, how is, uh,

16:29somebody says, how is that not greed?

16:31And he says, uh, because I don't own anything Greg, I'm Christian.

16:37And that means God owns it.

16:39And I'm managing it for him.

16:41So I guess you're calling God greedy and I'm reading word for word from a transcript of

16:49this video.

16:50He literally said that, which is another, it's another attempt to be like, well, it's

16:55the LLC owns it.

16:57Not me.

16:58Right.

16:59I mean, sometimes it's God LLC.

17:00It is, it is the Lord, uh, limited liability company.

17:05Yeah.

17:06Yeah.

17:07The thought that, I mean, it's such a dodge, right?

17:09It's such an obvious dodge because very clearly, yeah, maybe he could claim that if he were

17:15giving all of the proceeds to all of these things to a charity, maybe he could say that

17:23then he could claim, you know what I'm just, I'm managing this for God.

17:27You know what I mean?

17:28I don't understand that being a claim.

17:30If he's not benefiting from the, from the increase of this business venture, but yeah.

17:38And certainly this sounds like just like this concept only exists when it is reified

17:45for the sake of defending his, his, a moral stance because I'm sure at no point whatsoever

17:53is he ever, um, you know, counting his sacks of bags that have dollar signs painted on

17:59them, uh, with the idea of how am I going to serve God, like, you're right.

18:05God is not the one who is cashing the checks.

18:07God is not the one who's jetting off to the Seychelles to, uh, to enjoy being a steward

18:12of, of, uh, God's property.

18:15Right.

18:16This is a, a defense that exists only for the sake of defense.

18:21This is yeah, and good heavens that he pathetic attempt, even if your license plate says something

18:29Christian on it, uh, if it's on a Ferrari, that's you.

18:35Yeah.

18:37So there you go.

18:38Yeah.

18:39He, I think that it's, it's kind of astounding that he's willing to, uh, that he's willing

18:45to, to say that, the, oh, I guess you're calling God greedy now.

18:51Um, no, we're talking to you, Dave, uh, that's, that's who, yeah.

18:56And then he goes on to, um, to give a hard time to people who have bathrooms in their

19:01homes.

19:02Right.

19:03He's like, if you make this is another, this is another like, uh, a look over there, sort

19:08of a dodge.

19:09It's what about his, um, yeah, here it's like, if you make $36,000 a year, you're in the

19:14richest 1% globally, which is entirely false.

19:18It's, um, I looked it up.

19:20It's more like a $175,000 a year to be in the top 1% globally.

19:25Oh, really?

19:26Okay.

19:27Yeah.

19:28And if you're talking about the top 1% in the US, it's like 800 something thousand

19:31dollars, uh, a year.

19:33So not only is it not true, but it's just pure, what about him?

19:38You're just trying to, the point that he's making, he says, if you've got three bathrooms,

19:43if you have more, you have more than most people in the world, why are you not greedy?

19:47If you have two cars, you have two cars more than most people in the world.

19:50If you make $38,000 a year, you're in the top 1% of income.

19:54How are you not greedy?

19:56And his point, and then he, and then he says another astounding thing, uh, which is amounts

20:01don't create greed.

20:04Greed is a spirit.

20:05It's not an amount.

20:07I mean, okay, I, you, you can have greedy poor people and, and you can have, uh, selfless,

20:16uh, wealthy people.

20:17That's a lot more rare, but, um, but yeah, the, this is another attempt to just dodge the

20:23fact that now if, if you're always trying to get more, that's, that's what avarice is.

20:31That's what greed is.

20:32You're not happy with what you have and I don't think, I don't think the, the, the,

20:39the biggest concern is this qualifies as greed.

20:42I think the biggest concern is this is unethical.

20:46If you hold yourself out to be a Christian, whether it's greedy or not, it's unethical

20:52to be causing suffering on the part of others, just so you can hoard more for yourself.

20:58Yeah.

20:59I think that is the point.

21:00Um, I, I do think that there are, and I don't have it pulled up.

21:04There are, I mean, you know, one of the things that we talk about all the time on this show

21:07is the fact that the Bible can be used to bolster many different conflicting positions.

21:14And I think that there are some, some scripture that definitely, you know, that definitely

21:19lean the other direction that it's good to, to be wealthy and that, that wealth is sort

21:24of a, it makes up for a positive thing.

21:26You know, a lot of these scripture writers were writing in the times of kings who had

21:31wealth and they would have gotten in big trouble if they had written anything else.

21:35Well, and a lot of, a lot of the Hebrew Bible, a lot of the wisdom literature, this is written

21:40by the social elites and they are, are there to promote their own, their own worldview

21:47and their own interests.

21:48So, you know, the, the author of Proverbs is obviously, you know, doesn't, doesn't have

21:53a hard time with wealth when he's like, ah, a virtuous woman who has a bunch of slaves

21:57and goes out and, and purchases fields in the marketplace and, and all this kind of stuff.

22:02Like that's, that's a very wealthy person.

22:04The New Testament is written to serve the interests of minority communities and largely

22:11oppressed communities.

22:13Now there's a, the, the authors are not speaking on behalf of communities.

22:20They're writing for literary purposes, but earliest Christianity was derided as a religion

22:26for women and slaves.

22:27Right.

22:28These were the, the poor in the downtrodden, which is why in the New Testament, you don't

22:32really have the same kind of rhetoric you have in Proverbs and, and in Samuel and Kings,

22:37the New Testament, you have Jesus telling the rich young ruler, oh, if you want to inherit

22:42internal, eternal life, go sell everything you have and give all the money to the poor.

22:47Now, I don't know how Dave Ramsey, uh, reconciles this with, uh, I mean, what would he have

22:56said to Jesus in response?

22:57Like, what, this isn't my stuff.

23:01I don't own any of this.

23:03I can't sell this.

23:04It's God's.

23:05This belongs to God.

23:06How could I possibly sell it?

23:07It does.

23:08Yeah.

23:09It seems, uh, it seems like especially a Christian, you know, what we talk about, uh, justifying

23:17wealth with Proverbs, but yeah, if you're a Christian, theoretically the, the, the teachings

23:24of Jesus and sort of the, uh, the New Testament should be the, the, the more dominant guide

23:30and it feels really clear about the hoarding of wealth and the, and the, uh, the, yeah,

23:39the, the, the making other people miserable because you want more.

23:46And it's not just an individual thing.

23:48It's a social thing.

23:49Like these are people who are causing social inequities and causing economic problems for

23:57people who they've never met and have nothing to do with them.

24:00And I can think of another example that's even more directly related to this.

24:04Um, Jesus condemns, um, folks for, um, and I forget where this passage is.

24:11I haven't read it in a while, uh, but he condemns people who, uh, who say Corbin, do you remember

24:18that?

24:19Okay.

24:20That's in Mark seven, but ye say if a man shall say to his father or mother, it is Corbin.

24:24That is to say a gift by whatsoever that might as be profited by me.

24:28He shall be free that.

24:31Oh, I just read the KJV accidentally, um, shame on you.

24:36I get, I get one a year.

24:38And the idea here is, is Corbin is this word that's supposed to mean dedicated.

24:44And so what this is saying is that children are withholding, uh, wealth, money, uh, maybe

24:50items, uh, of property of value from their parents who in, in this situation clearly need

24:58them or could be greatly benefited by them by saying this is dedicated to God.

25:04I can't give it to you.

25:07I'm going to hold on to it.

25:09I'm going to benefit from it, but it's God's.

25:14So I'm afraid I can't turn it over to you, which is pretty much exactly what Ramsey is

25:19saying.

25:20I said, Oh my, my 15 or somewhere around about 20 ish homes and, and various in sundry,

25:26uh, uh, commercial real estate properties.

25:29I don't know in any of them.

25:30They belong to God, but you can't have them.

25:32Right.

25:33Um, like it's the, it's the exact same thing.

25:35And so, um, it's being condemned here.

25:38Um, yeah, it, he goes on to, uh, to justify all of this thinking with an amazing, uh, idea,

25:49which is that he says that anyone who think he says you can be a socialist.

25:55If you want to just don't blame Christianity, uh, and then he says that it is that and definitely

26:02don't read acts four and five, wait, what do acts four and five say?

26:08That's where they said, uh, they had all things in common and there, uh, we're no poor among

26:13them.

26:14And then, um, uh, Sephira and an IS were like, Oh yeah, yeah, we, this was, this was a full

26:19amount that we sold our property for.

26:20And then God's like zap.

26:22Um, so, right.

26:23Oh, that's right.

26:24They died, huh?

26:25Yeah.

26:26Yeah.

26:27Wow.

26:28Okay.

26:29Yeah.

26:30So, excuse me for laughing, but, um, this was a long, long time ago.

26:31Yeah.

26:32Yeah.

26:33Yeah.

26:34Yeah.

26:35So, uh, the, so, so yeah, he's, he's saying don't be, you can be socialist if you want,

26:38but don't blame Christianity and then he will blame being socialist on Christianity.

26:43Right.

26:44Right.

26:45Yeah.

26:46He seems to think that they're, uh, against one another and he says, and he then says,

26:51he says it, he says that's, and that's meaning like being against the massive accumulation

26:58of wealth, I assume, or, or of things.

27:01He says that's a form of heresy called Gnosticism that believes that the material is bad.

27:08And anyone that has material, their soul is in jeopardy.

27:12Now, you and I talked about Gnosticism a few weeks, a few episodes back.

27:17I don't remember that being the kind of material that we were talking about, like not owning

27:23material wealth.

27:24Yeah, I don't think that was what the, what, what it was all on about, but no, that, that's

27:29Jesus.

27:30That's Jesus is the one who's saying where you place your heart, uh, you know, there

27:36will your, uh, or there, wherever your treasure is there, your heart will be, and you cannot

27:40serve God and wealth and give away, uh, all that you own.

27:46That's Jesus.

27:47Yeah.

27:48What narcissism is talking about is that the material world, not material wealth, but the

27:53entire material world is corrupt and we are fundamentally spirits that are trying to escape

28:00from the fleshly prisons of the material world.

28:03Gnostics are not like, if you're poor, you're cool, but if you have lots of stuff, you're

28:10evil.

28:11Like that's, that's not Gnosticism.

28:13Right.

28:14Right.

28:15This is a, but it does seem like it does seem like one of the things that the Gnostus,

28:18Gnostus, Gnostics.

28:20Thank you, that the Gnostics are, uh, are against would be holding fast to the values

28:28of a material world.

28:30Absolutely.

28:31So, uh, so yeah, I think, I think he does have something to fear from Gnosticism.

28:35Well, he, yeah, he's on, he's on the short end of the Gnostics and Jesus, like both of

28:40them are like, what?

28:41No.

28:42Yeah.

28:43You're not it guy.

28:44Yeah.

28:45Um, the, the, the anti Gnostic and anti, uh, you, the whole thing was just a very, it's

28:53funny because the, the, the initial question that somebody wrote into him didn't mention

29:01him at all, didn't say anything about, Hey, uh, Dave, you personally, how can you just

29:09have it just said, how do you, how do we justify this as a concept?

29:14Isn't it greed and, ooh, the defensiveness of this man, Dave, Dave was immediate.

29:20Like, I took that personally.

29:22Dave, Dave just told on himself, like he took the entire time to just tell on himself.

29:27And cause you know, there, there's an, uh, within Christian nationalism, there, there's

29:31got to be some kind of, of, uh, reckoning, there's got to be some kind of, uh, uh, discussion

29:37going on about, um, you know, what about, you know, the whole sell everything that you

29:42know, I'm like, these people are talking and, and they've got to be trying to convince

29:47each other that they're okay.

29:49And so I think Ramsey was just like, time to rattle off the, the litany of, uh, of excuses

29:56that I've heard other people come up with for why it's okay to be monumentally wealthy

30:01in the face of such extreme social inequality, uh, in this world, uh, and be a Christian

30:08at the same time, and then they even be like, I'm a better Christian than y'all, y'all are

30:13awful Christians.

30:14Well, I mean, his theory that, uh, all of my stuff, because I'm Christian, just by virtue

30:22of me being Christian, all of my stuff belongs to God, it makes it like what he can then

30:28do is, uh, by that logic, more accumulation means God has more stuff.

30:35And that's an inherently good thing, not, he doesn't say how that's a good thing, but

30:41as long as God, God's accruing more stuff, that must be okay.

30:45And therefore I'm a good person and shut up.

30:48Great.

30:49Well, and, and I think there, I imagine he has this parable in mind of the, um, the wise

30:55steward where God gives them the, um, the talents and they invested in, and, um, you

31:01know, the one who is scared and, and buries their talent and God comes back and says,

31:06where's my, where's my, uh, increase?

31:09And they say, Oh, I just buried it.

31:10But here's the talent back that you gave me.

31:12And then God is like, ah, and, and gets upset with them.

31:15That's probably an excuse.

31:17He's, he's, um, would ultimately end up appealing to that he is the wise steward by generating

31:24all this increase, um, what's the parable manifestly does not talk about though is, is,

31:32um, all the bodies left in the wake, uh, and an entire generation that will never be able

31:39to own a house and can barely afford eggs right now.

31:42Yeah.

31:43I find that parable deeply problematic.

31:45And maybe we should do it at some point.

31:47Yeah.

31:48We should do that parable here on the show because it's, uh, it's a tricky one, you know,

31:53for all of our talking about Jesus, you know, being very anti wealth or whatever, that seems

31:59to fly in the face of it.

32:00So yeah, maybe we should, we should address that.

32:03And he, and he uses kings and wealthy folks and slave owners and things like that in,

32:08in a number of parables, which does kind of, uh, sound odd in light of the rest of his

32:14blessed or the poor and the meek, um, rhetoric.

32:17So yeah, that would be interesting.

32:18Yeah. So, so maybe, you know, maybe Dave Ramsey's right, maybe Dave Ramsey, maybe with that,

32:24with the parable of the talents now, now you got me thinking maybe he's okay.

32:27Well, if the Old Testament prophets and, uh, and Jesus have anything to say, well, yeah,

32:34but we're splitting Jesus along these, uh, these parable and, um, yeah, because it's

32:39not a, the parables are not really prescriptive, but hey, go sell everything you have and give

32:44the money to the poor.

32:45It's pretty prescriptive.

32:46That's pretty prescriptive.

32:47That's, that's fairly unambiguous.

32:49It's true.

32:50Yeah.

32:51We've got a fever and the only prescription is to sell everything that you own and give

32:55the money to the poor.

32:56Yeah, exactly.

32:57Um, Calbell.

32:58So.

32:59All right. Well, uh, that was great. And, uh, I hope Dave Ramsey comes after us for

33:04it.

33:05We can use the attention.

33:07That's right.

33:08Come at me, Ramsey.

33:10Uh, don't, yeah, don't, don't go to him for your advice. Anyway, uh, let's move on to,

33:15uh, I'm, I'm sure now I'm going to get a lot of emails because I'm sure some of our listeners

33:20have felt like they've gotten great advice from Dave Ramsey. Anyway, so yes, uh, our

33:25next thing is what's that?

33:32And the what's that for, uh, for, for this thing is the deuteronomistic history. Yes.

33:39And I said, I said all of those syllables. I'm just going to be, uh, clear that I, I achieved

33:45that much on the show today. Uh, so, so talk to me. You suggested this as a, uh, as a topic.

33:53Yeah.

33:54And I said, and I literally was like, well, what is that? So let's, let's start at the

34:01beginning and, uh, and talk about the deuteronomist when, and what, what are we talking about

34:06here? What, what, what is this history? What are we, what are we on about?

34:10We're talking about a modern theoretical construct regarding the composition of not just the

34:16penituke, but of, uh, several other books of the Hebrew Bible because, uh, we've, we talked

34:23a bit about the, um, documentary hypothesis in the past. And this goes back to like the

34:301700s. Um, and this was developed into the 1800s into the, the 1900s into the 20 hundreds.

34:37Um, and we're, we're not quite into the 2100s yet, but it will continue to develop. And

34:42the idea is basically that the penituke was, um, woven, stitched together from multiple

34:48different documentary sources in the, in the classical iteration of the documentary hypothesis.

34:54And those sources are J for the Yawest, E for the yellowest, P for the priestly source and

35:00D for the deuteronomist or the, for deuteronomy. Now, um, in the early 20th century, we had

35:08this German theologian named, uh, Martin note who noticed that there was a lot of resonances

35:17in the books of Joshua, judges, Samuel and Kings and the book of deuteronomy. He noticed

35:24a lot of a lot of, um, kind of literary, uh, callbacks and things like this. And he developed

35:30this theory that's there was a redactor who was responsible for, uh, a single literary

35:40units, the attacks that included deuteronomy, Joshua, judges, Samuel and Kings. And he called

35:46this the deuteronomistic history. And it seems to be based on this idea of, uh, this

35:54covenant idea that, that God struck a covenant with Israel. And, uh, that theology is pervasive

36:02in all of these texts. And there's a lot of, uh, language that's similar. And, uh, one

36:09of the parts of this theory was that this was, this, um, redaction took place long after

36:15the events that are being narrated. And one of the reasons for this is he noticed that

36:19there were a lot of places where the narrative talks about how, um, you know, this thing

36:26was built and it is there until this day. Adha Yom Hazay in, in Hebrew, uh, until the

36:34day, the day that this one. And so, so meaning until right right now, as of the writing of

36:41this, as of the writing of this. And you know, when you think about that, authors don't

36:46say, Hey, this thing just happened. And you can go and see the remnants of the building,

36:53the battle, the whatever. And it remains down until this very day. I'm like, like, that's

37:00not something you say about something that you witnessed yourself. That's something you

37:04say about something. They completed that building next door. And it remains there even now.

37:10Yeah. This is something you say about things that happened in Hori antiquity. Right. But

37:15the results of which continue to be evident and you can go check it out for yourself.

37:21And so, uh, you have this until this day language, um, occurring in, it occurs a handful of places

37:28toward the end of Genesis, like a couple of times in Genesis 19, 22, 26. And then it's

37:33like 35, 47, 48, once in Exodus, once in numbers. And then a bunch of times in Deuteronomy and

37:42Joshua judges, Samuel and Kings. And so one gets the idea that this redactor was kind

37:48of bringing a lot of stuff together and seems to be kind of, um, stitching some of this stuff

37:56with, with this language. And why are we calling this person the redactor rather than the,

38:02uh, than rather than the collector or the bringing together or the, you know what I mean? I think

38:07the, uh, the MCU probably has copyright on, on the collector. Um, so the, the Tvon group,

38:16I think is, uh, is run by the, the collector and, but, um, it's a, it's a literary theory.

38:23It's part of the documentary hypothesis that, that this person was not writing any of these

38:28things. They were, they were basically drawing them together, weaving them together to create

38:33this literary superstructure that is known as the Deuteronomistic history. And, uh, it

38:40can be woven into theories about the development of Deuteronomy. There are arguments about

38:44whether or not the Deuteronomistic history was there from the very beginning with the

38:48very first layers of Deuteronomy that may have, uh, been composed just before Josiah,

38:55may have been composed by Josiah, may have been collected, uh, by the scribes of Josiah.

39:02So like traditionally Janet, or not Genesis, Deuteronomy 12 through 24 is identified as

39:09one of the earliest layers of Deuteronomy. And so there's an argument that the Deuteronomistic

39:14history is already coming together with that earliest layer, but it's phenomenally complex.

39:19And, you know, you have a lot of different, uh, people argue in a lot of different positions.

39:24There's a really good book from about 15 years ago called the so-called Deuteronomistic

39:28history by, uh, Tomás Romer, who is, um, a, did we were you, I think we ran into him

39:38at SBL.

39:39Oh yeah.

39:40Yeah. Remember, we were coming out of the book exhibit at one point and I was like,

39:43hold on. I got to talk to that guy. And I thought it was somebody else. Oh, and, and

39:47he was like, no, I'm Tomás. And I was like, oh, yeah. I was like, we want to have you

39:52on the podcast and he gave me his card. Um, I, which reminds me, I need to reach out to

39:57him, but he has to be, he wrote this wonderful book and, and he has this theory that within

40:02Deuteronomy 12, you can see three different literary layers, the very earliest, uh, layer

40:08of Deuteronomy and then a later redaction and then a later redaction. And, uh, it, you

40:13know, when you get deep in the weeds, it gets really complex and really annoying. But I

40:18think that the theory itself is, is such a fascinating one. Um, and once you know the,

40:24the details of it, it's interesting to be reading through the text and be like, oh, the

40:29Deuteronomy rears his head again. Um, so you're catching moments of like, uh, sort of a reiteration

40:38or an idea that has, that has sort of come back around or yeah. And, and think, and these

40:45are things that, um, kind of point to the main rhetorical goals of this redactor, uh,

40:52which are related to cult centralization, the idea that everything, uh, all worship needs

40:57to be focused on the temple in Jerusalem needs to be focused exclusively on Adonai needs

41:03to go exclusively through the prescribed priesthood. Uh, and, um, there's another, uh, there's

41:12some other language that I talked about that, that we find in, uh, in Deuteronomy when I

41:16mentioned this to you, the idea that, uh, God is going to choose a place to place his name

41:22or cause his name to dwell. Okay. And, and you were like, I don't know what you're talking

41:27about. Okay. Great. But, um, this is, uh, one of the hints that, you know, Dave Ramsey

41:35has some places. If, uh, if God wants to find a place for his name to dwell, Dave, they're

41:39to actually belong to God. So he could just blame them. And, um, so one of the interesting

41:46things is the book of Deuteronomy is supposed to have been written long before Jerusalem

41:51became the location of, of, uh, God's temple. And so I can see that being a problem, but

41:58it's being written well after it has been established. Right. But the king wants Deuteronomy to

42:05centralize worship in Jerusalem. So the way they get around this is by having God talk,

42:12um, cryptically about the place I will choose, which is always a substitution for Jerusalem.

42:20Right. Like that's a, the foregone conclusion is that Jerusalem is where we're headed. Um,

42:25and so, but I, I love the fact that, that the phrase is the, the place God will choose

42:31to cause his name to dwell. Uh, and, uh, I think that the Hebrew is, uh, La Shaqen

42:38Shmo, sham way, uh, literally to cause to dwell his name there. Um, and this plays into

42:45what is known as name theology, which is something that we find in Deuteronomy and pops up in

42:50a few places in the Deuteronomistic history. And this is the idea that, uh, God does not

42:56dwell bodily or personally in the temple, but God's name is there and God's name is kind

43:03of the manifestation of God's power and authority. And, and this relates to work I've done on

43:09divine images. And my argument is that this is about the inscription of the divine name

43:15on a divine image that is placed in the temple. And in that sense, the divine name is, is

43:21dwelling in that divine image. It doesn't, it almost wouldn't even have to be inscribed,

43:28which is just the, I mean, my understanding of, of, of your theory of, uh, of the divine

43:34imagery or whatever. Like, yes, it's, but it, an inscription would be, would be one thing,

43:41but it can also be theoretical, right? It could also be just like the concept of God's

43:46name is enough to carry sort of the weight of God's presence. Yeah. And that's what we

43:52see once we get into Greco-Roman period Judaism and the New Testament. Like I, I made a video

43:58today where I was talking about the, the times in the gospel of John where Jesus is like,

44:03yes, you gave your name to me and through your name, I have, uh, you know, guarded my,

44:09my followers and, and the reception of the name is so important to this early Christology,

44:17but it's not like God was like, and scribing it, the name of God on Jesus. This is just

44:23an abstract notion of, of the name as a, as a vehicle for a divine agency. So yeah, it

44:29doesn't even have to be material. It can, by this time it, it has become abstract and

44:35conceptual. Well, even even the, the 10 commandments take not, you know, demanding that you not

44:41take the name of the Lord in vain was a, was a concept that like somehow just invoking the

44:47name had its own power. Yeah. And, and that's a power that you shouldn't use vainly. You

44:53shouldn't use it for, for a silly or, or toward purposes. And, and at the same time though,

45:01to speak the name is, is to materialize the name, um, at least in the sense that what

45:08we hear is sound waves is material. Um, and, and we, we tend to think of things that we

45:14can't, uh, feel and see and, and touch as, um, existing a different way than the things

45:22that we can see and feel and touch, but, um, but auditory things are, are material. So

45:28there's an, an, an anciently, I think they would have thought of speech as, you know,

45:32something that's actually materially affecting the world around us. And so that, that would

45:37have lent itself to this understanding of names as powerful because they are, uh, affecting

45:45the world. So yeah, that, that's another way that, and in my opinion, one of my theories

45:51that I develop in my book, Adonized Divine Images and that I've got a further develop

45:55in a paper I'm going to be presenting at a conference later this year, uh, is that the

46:00pronunciation of the name became taboo precisely because it was reifying the divine presence

46:08outside of the temple and they're it, therefore in an inappropriate location. And so you couldn't

46:15say the divine name, um, unless you were in the temple and once the temple was destroyed,

46:20and you can never say the divine name. Um, yeah, we're going to need to do a, uh, that's

46:25another topic for another, uh, show because the, the temple itself, the, uh, is, is such

46:32an important concept and it keeps, it feels like it shifts a bunch of times, uh, the way

46:39that it's talked about and the way that it is, uh, conceptualized changes. And it seems

46:46so odd to me that, uh, the temple was destroyed and then that's just it. There's no more to

46:54it. You know what I mean? Like, and they had rebuilt it before, but, uh, that was the

46:58last time we're just, we're just done with the temple for now. Yeah. And, and I think

47:02circumstances prevented them. I mean, Rome, they, they couldn't come back and be like,

47:07Hey, Rome, can we reveal our number? Um, cause, cause Roma had done other stuff in, um, in

47:13the area and they were, um, yeah, they were persona and on grata there for, uh, for quite

47:18some time, but, and, and you know, there are a bunch of people who are trying to get the

47:23third temple rebuilt. There are, um, the, the temple institute is preparing all of the

47:29implements and utensils and things like that, that would be needed in the temple. Most,

47:34if not all of those things are already built and being stored. Um, in fact, if you, uh,

47:42go into, uh, Jerusalem today through, um, I, oh shoot, I forget which gate you got, you

47:50got to go through, but it's one of the gate on the northwest side. Um, and round the corner,

47:56they have on display a menorah that has been built for use in a, a future temple. Huh?

48:03Um, yeah. So it's in a big, uh, glass case, glass, plexiglass. I don't know, something

48:08prob, I assume it's supposed to be, um, pretty durable and indestructible, but you can go

48:14see the menorah that they have constructed. Um, so not, not like the, uh, the Deuteronomistic,

48:21uh, idea of there will be at some point, yeah, chooses to cause well, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

48:32Yeah. I, and I like how I circled it back. I was, I was like, I was like, we've gone

48:36a bit, a field from, uh, from the Deuteronomistic history, but, but that project is, I, I tend

48:43to think of the Deuteronomistic project, Deuteronomy and the Deuteronomistic history as probably

48:48the most influential literary campaign in the history, uh, of, of the world in terms

48:55of its influence. Um, because, and, and people talk about the, the Quran and stuff like that.

49:01You don't have a Quran without Judaism. Um, and, and so what Josiah did and what the,

49:08the authors of Deuteronomy and the rest of the Deuteronomistic history did was recreate

49:14the history of Israel, uh, in their past, in a certain way, which influenced everything

49:20that came after related to the temple. And it came right before the temple was destroyed.

49:25And then it gets further revised and redacted after the destruction of the temple and probably

49:30after the rebuilding of the temple as well. And that creates a pretty thick layer of, uh,

49:38of ideology that gets passed down and within a few centuries becomes scripture and becomes,

49:47you know, the word of God and ever since has, has, um, to some degree governed how people

49:53think about, um, temple and temple sacrifices and all that kind of stuff. But, and now we're

49:58uncovering temples that were built six miles from Jerusalem that were operative during the

50:03first temple period. Uh, the Talmud saw a temple, for instance, is one of them. We got

50:08the arad temple down south in, um, in the Negev as well. So we know there were multiple temples

50:15operating prior to the exile. And I think that lends credence to the theory that Josiah was like,

50:24I'm going to put a stop to all this nonsense, um, to the theory that, that Deuteronomy and

50:29the Deuteronomistic history were an attempt to centralize, uh, and consolidate worship and control

50:36over it. But yeah, we ought to do a show on, uh, on the first temple. Yeah. And what we know and

50:42don't know about it. I think that would be fun. I love it. All right. Well, I think that that's, uh,

50:49run its course. Yeah. I think I mean, it's so, it's fascinating. I'm just trying to, it's a lot to

50:54take in because, uh, I, there's so much like you're talking about how complex it is. And I'm just

51:01trying to like skim the surface and it's still very, very complex. But, but yeah, this, uh, I think,

51:08okay, we're going to do the temp. I'm going to write it down. Okay. Hang on. I'm going to write it down.

51:12Let it be written. Let it be so. Yes. Exactly. Uh, all right. I'll write it down later.

51:20Okay. Don't have anything to write on.

51:22Well, uh, that's it for this week's show. Uh, if you would like to become apart friends of making

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