Ep 114: Pride Month vs. the Bible!

00:00I think most basically all Christians in a modern context would be very happy to say

00:10that they disavow the idea of marriage is one man purchasing a woman from another man.

00:21We're all on board with that.

00:22Hopefully.

00:23Yeah.

00:24I think there are some people in Davis County who probably are not quite there yet.

00:28Okay.

00:29Fair enough.

00:30Hey, everybody.

00:31I'm Dan McClellan and I'm Dan Beacher and you're listening to the Data Over Dogma podcast

00:41where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion and we combat

00:46the spread of misinformation about the same.

00:49And boy, do we have some combatant to do tonight.

00:52It's all combat today, baby.

00:54We're going to slip right into those combat footies and we're going to get going.

00:59We're warriors today.

01:02Happy Pride month, Dan.

01:05Happy Pride month, Dan.

01:06Right back at you.

01:08And that is what that is what this week's episode is all about.

01:12We're going somatic this week.

01:15And this is how we know that that it's springtime because pride comes before the fall.

01:20No, wait, anyway, what we're going to be talking about in the first segment is actually the

01:26word pride and we're going to be taking issue with the sin of pride.

01:32And then in the second segment for our chapter and verse, we're going to be doing a, we're

01:37going to be looking at some passages that have maybe been used in some not very nice ways

01:43against some, some very nice people and yes, perhaps they've been used in particularly prideful

01:49ways.

01:50If one, if one may be so bold, we're getting, we're, we're, we're going to get them hoist

02:01them on their own potard, whatever that means.

02:06Yes.

02:07Whatever, whatever that ends up meaning.

02:08Yes.

02:09Potard, I think, was a bomb, wasn't it?

02:10Yeah.

02:11Yeah.

02:12And so to be hoisted by one zone is to accidentally blow oneself up.

02:15Yeah.

02:16Yeah.

02:17So we're, we're going to blow them up on their own bombs.

02:20Uh, so first though, let's take issue and, uh, we're going to start with the issue we're

02:32going to take is about pride, uh, but our launching point is a lovely tweet.

02:38I'm not going to call it a tweet.

02:40I don't, I, well, maybe I will.

02:42Here's, here's what I've decided and I'm, I'm just going to put this out into the world.

02:45I want all of you to take this on, uh, Daniel and I were just talking about X and how when

02:52Elon first got Twitter and changed the name to X, I was like, I'm never going to call

02:58it that.

02:59I'm always going to call it Twitter because that'll show them or something.

03:03And then I realized that, oh, he's changed it so much that it really is a very different

03:09place.

03:10So now I, I refer to the old thing as Twitter and this, a new abomination, uh, that welcomes

03:17Nazis and, uh, and, you know, has a hate bot running around, uh, and, uh, call that X.

03:24I think that that is a perfectly fine appellation for what, for the dumpster fire that it has

03:29become.

03:30So, but I, but my theory is that the word tweet can now be used on any social media platform.

03:39If you did a short post, I call it a tweet.

03:43If you're on threads, you did a tweet and you didn't do a thread.

03:46You did a tweet.

03:48So anyway, we, we're launching with a tweet, sorry about the rant, got a little off topic.

03:54We're launching with a tweet from, uh, a real peach of a guy, Pastor Mark Driscoll.

04:00Yeah.

04:01A little Pastor Mark from Mars Hill.

04:04Oh my gosh, he's a, he's a grump of a fella and, and I'm not a fan, but he did it.

04:12He did a tweet and, uh, uh, do I read you all, I'll, I'll, yeah, go ahead and you can go

04:18ahead and read the tweet.

04:19I'll read the tweet, but then we need to also describe the image that accompanies this.

04:24The tweet says pride is what got Satan kicked out of heaven.

04:29Pride is what caused man to fall, pride is the demonic counterfeit of repentance.

04:36Humble yourselves under the, under the mighty hand of God.

04:41And okay, like if that were what he posted and it were, I don't know, let's say February,

04:50I would be mostly okay with that.

04:53But there's this enormous dog whistle in that, uh, and, and he, uh, the accompanying image,

05:01do you want to just describe the image?

05:04So it's, uh, it's, it's mainly, uh, colors ranging from dark brown to orange to yellow.

05:12Uh, and it is a bunch of people writhing in agony bathed in flames.

05:17Yeah.

05:18And then the, it is gruesome and horrifying.

05:22And the caption is how God celebrates pride, which honestly, like the, the thought that

05:31you would be okay with your God, with the person, with the entity that is the object

05:36of your worship to, to have as it, as his celebration, the, the burning and torture of

05:49human beings is, uh, is astounding to me.

05:54Yeah.

05:55Yeah.

05:56The, the song needs to go, uh, his God is a pathetic God, an evil God to, to tolerate

06:05or even to quote unquote celebrate, uh, burning people alive, uh, is, is kind of the thing

06:12that they criticize in another prominent religion, uh, that's, um, I guess they, once, once June

06:20rolls around, all bets are off and, uh, and they get to use whatever kind of rhetoric

06:25they like.

06:26But obviously this is a reference to, uh, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis

06:3319, which we will talk about in the next segment.

06:37Right.

06:38It could also be hell.

06:39I mean, that's the other thing that this could, that the people burning in the lake of fire.

06:44It could be either.

06:45It could be any of those things.

06:47It's, it's a very unpleasant image.

06:49Yeah.

06:50Uh, I guess, you know, sending, sending folks to hell would be the other way to understand

06:55what, what he's talking about.

06:56But the thing that the, the very clear inference here is that he's not talking about, uh, wait,

07:04he's, he's making all these comments about pride and then it's a reference to June being

07:10gay pride month or LGBTQ pride month.

07:14Yes.

07:15Uh, and, uh, I don't know, Dan, do you have any problem with that at all?

07:21I have all the problems with it.

07:23Um, as, as much and, and I am, you know, of all the people of who loathe dictionaries,

07:33I know and retreating to a dictionary for, for any kind of adjudication of meaning.

07:38Um, I'm not trying to say that pride has to mean these things, but I'm just pointing

07:43out that the people who do look at how people use words have divided up the word pride into

07:50multiple different senses.

07:52Yeah.

07:54And there are senses that could be associated with what Mark is talking about in the body

08:01of his tweet and there are other senses that are associated with pride month and I'm actually

08:08going to appeal to the Oxford English dictionary, my Alma mater.

08:13I don't know if you can use Alma mater for a place where he did a graduate degree when

08:18you went to school in a book, uh, but the dictionary, yeah, it was, it was crowded.

08:24It was warm, but, um, when you look at, uh, the, the entry for pride, one, it's a noun.

08:31Hopefully we all know that already, but, uh, the main sense number one is the quality

08:37of being proud now since one one a, which lets you know they're going to be a lot of

08:44senses, but one one a, uh, is a high, especially an excessively high opinion of one's own

08:53worth or importance, which gives rise to a feeling or attitude of superiority over others

09:00in ordnance self esteem.

09:02So that is one, one a, but I, I want to bring up another one as well, which is since one

09:09two, uh, so this is down a few arrogant, haughty or overbearing behavior demeanor or treatment

09:17of others, especially as exhibiting an inordinately high opinion of oneself.

09:24Yeah.

09:25So this is the stuff that you could say is what's addressed in the Bible, what is condemned

09:32in the Bible, particularly with that word, haughty, uh, even in the King James version,

09:37we see hotiness is, is called out explicitly on a number of different occasions.

09:43So that's, that's what we might call problematic pride.

09:47If we want to stick with alliteration, uh, we're not into the whole brevity thing, but we

09:51are into alliteration.

09:53So why not? Yeah, so alliteration is so alluring and, uh, gravitating and ran out of A-words.

10:02So that's a, I think that's a decent look at pride in the sense that, that, uh, Mark

10:11is using in the body of the tweet.

10:13Yeah.

10:14Now this has nothing at all to do with the sense that is intended when people talk about

10:19pride month and gay pride, because you have to go down all the way to sense one six B,

10:27oh, excuse me, one six A, uh, one six B is about events associated with events are one

10:35six A is a sense of confidence, self respect and solidarity as felt or publicly expressed

10:43by members of a group, typically one that has been socially marginalized on the basis

10:48of their shared identity, history and experience, frequently attributed, compare gay pride and

10:55then down, uh, further it talks a bit about that.

10:58So you have an, and I split it up in a two different senses of pride.

11:03One is the, I'm better than you pride and the other is I'm not worse than you pride.

11:09Right.

11:10And those are, they're not really overlap there or even like, you know, I, when I think

11:16of the pride of gay pride month or, you know, the, the pride parade or whatever, I don't

11:22even think it's pride as a, uh, you know, me compared to you moment.

11:28I think it's pride as in we are proud of ourselves for having made it through this.

11:33We're proud of, uh, of ourselves for being able to be out and proud in a society that

11:41doesn't want us to be, like it does, it doesn't seem to me to be a declaration of I'm as good

11:47as you.

11:48It's just we are, we, you know, we, we're holding to each other in this moment.

11:53And we're, and we're, uh, we're lifting, we're raising ourselves up because everyone else

11:59is trying to push us down now.

12:02And that, and that's a very different me.

12:04And this, this is one of the problems, right?

12:05Like this is something that happens a lot where people like people like Driscoll like

12:10to take this jujitsu approach to language where they get to use the word in their way

12:18and in the other way and conflate the ways and it happens so much.

12:23And you know, I, I see so many of, I was, I was just telling you about a post that I

12:29saw where the Utah, uh, mammoth, that's the new Utah hockey team.

12:35Yeah.

12:36NHL.

12:37But they, they posted and the whole, the post was just a simple one.

12:41It was just, uh, their logo done in rainbow.

12:46Um, they didn't even, I don't even, did they even say happy pride?

12:51Yeah.

12:52They said just say happy pride, hashtag tusks up because that's their new thing.

12:59And, uh, 2.7,000 comments later, uh, they're, the comments section just went haywire in

13:12all the ways that I suppose are predictable.

13:16But another, another thing that like it's so, that's so funny to me is how many people

13:23I think belligerently and willfully want to misunderstand what pride is, what it's about,

13:31what it's for, what, what, what's being celebrated.

13:35So many people saying, why are we making this about sex and it's like, you're making it

13:41about sex.

13:42Right.

13:43What, what are you talking about?

13:44This has nothing to do with sex.

13:46It has to do with a, a group of people, you know, and I mean, and, and, and, and their

13:51struggles and their triumphs, yeah, but yeah, you're the one making about sex.

13:57I just think, I think, I think that's what's funny is just willful, uh, refusal to, to

14:04any attempt at understanding.

14:06Yeah.

14:07I, I think because understanding means engaging the concerns on, on the terms of the people

14:15making them thinking about systemic power asymmetries, thinking about how, uh, members

14:22of the LGBTQIA plus community have been mistreated by society at large for generations.

14:29And you know, the, if you do that, you give away so much ground in the culture wars that

14:38so many people are trying to keep alive, like somebody, I saw another tweet or an X thing.

14:46I don't know what they call them, but, um, it was a, you know, back in the 50s, uh, you

14:53could be jailed in every state in the nation or something like that for, for this.

14:59And somebody's like, we need to bring back the bring back that old timey law and, you

15:06know, that's, that's an awful thing to cheer for.

15:11And if you, if you actually have to address the reality head on that you kind of have

15:16to acknowledge that is an awful thing to cheer for.

15:19Right.

15:20Um, and you know, anytime you are advancing a worldview that literally results in children

15:27taking their own lives because of bullying, because of depression, because of being made

15:33to feel like they don't belong in society in their own bodies.

15:38Yeah.

15:39Yeah.

15:40Full societal.

15:41Presence.

15:42Rejection.

15:43Yeah.

15:44Anytime you're, you're gleefully advancing a worldview like that, it's time to sit a few

15:49plays out.

15:50It's time to have a coke and a smile.

15:52And if you know the, the, uh, the rest of that line, it's time for that as well.

15:58Yeah.

15:59That's abominable and yeah, the, to have to go about it fallaciously because you don't

16:06have a real case, just kind of exposes the, the intellectual, um, corruption of going

16:16out and just making it clear why it's such a, why it's necessary.

16:21Right.

16:22It get the more you push back against it, the more you demonstrate precisely why it is

16:28necessary.

16:30Exactly.

16:31Yeah.

16:32Absolutely.

16:33A, a friend of mine actually posted on that, uh, on that mammoth post of a friend of mine

16:38commented that he was thankful to the bigots for pointing out why pride is necessary, is

16:44still necessary.

16:45Great month is necessary every month or every year as it is.

16:49If you can be in public and say, Hey, look at me.

16:51I belong and you get people telling you you deserve to die and that God's going to punish

16:57you in hell just for imagining that you belong.

17:01Right.

17:02Um, you're, you're just making it more and more necessary.

17:06What's, what's hilarious is all the, all the, uh, influencers and even people with like

17:11responsibilities associated with the military who were like, why doesn't, uh, as long as

17:17what I forget, they, they use some kind of slur to refer to members of, of that community,

17:23but they were like, as long as those people get a, an entire month, uh, and the military

17:29doesn't get a month for, uh, appreciation, you know, we're going to, we're going to continue

17:34to, to, you know, basically just be bigots and hateful and, and other people are like,

17:40there is military appreciation month, right?

17:44And there's, and there's veteran appreciation.

17:46Yeah.

17:47It's like there's two months or something and, and, and then specific days as well.

17:52Which betrays how little they actually care right.

17:56They don't actually care about the military, people serving in the military veterans.

18:01It's like people getting upset about trans women competing in sports.

18:05When those people are also braying about how women need to stay in the kitchen and women

18:10shouldn't even be able to vote.

18:12Right.

18:13They don't actually care.

18:14Yeah.

18:15It's, it's because it's, it's a, it's a battleground in the culture wars.

18:19Yeah.

18:20Have you watched a fencing match?

18:22No.

18:23Then why are you not shutting up right now?

18:29But one of the things I did want to get to, uh, is that, like I said, without the picture

18:35at its caption, Driscoll has made an interest like, and again, without the reference to

18:43June, Driscoll's made an interesting tweet about an actual thing, which is these so-called

18:49sin of pride.

18:50Yes.

18:51And I wanted to talk about that because sin of pride.

18:54Yeah.

18:55I wanted to talk about what that is, uh, what it means and what it doesn't mean because

19:01he's not wrong that it is, that pride is widely, you know, it's one of the seven deadly sins.

19:09Uh, it's, it's the worst of them by most accounts, by most reckonings.

19:13I remember, I remember CS Lewis talking about pride being the worst sin of them all.

19:19And, uh, I, I tend to think that probably murders worse than haughtyness, but you know,

19:25whatever, uh, but I, I think his contention was something along the lines of all the other

19:30sins stem from a pride, from a point of pride or something like that.

19:35Um, so let's talk about the kind of pride that the Bible does condemn.

19:42Yeah.

19:43Um, what, what are we talking about here?

19:46Well, probably the most famous, uh, passage having to do with pride is, uh, Proverbs 1618.

19:53Pride goes before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall, which is everybody knows

20:04what's, uh, what's going on there.

20:06And the word there for pride is, um, Gaon, which is a Hebrew word that refers to, uh,

20:15can refer to height.

20:16It can refer to eminence.

20:18It can refer to pride.

20:20I'm looking through my, uh, my lexicon here because I seem to recall, uh, I seem to recall

20:26some uses that are not necessarily, uh, negative, okay, like it's, um, it's not necessarily

20:34about, uh, bad pride.

20:37Yeah.

20:38So you have, uh, Isaiah two, 10, enter into the rock and hide in the dust from the terror

20:43of Adonai, the Lord, and from the glory of his Gaon.

20:49So his majesty.

20:50Okay.

20:51So pride is something that is associated with, with good things.

20:56Um, so even, even in ancient Hebrew, we're not free of the words that have multiple meanings

21:04that are actually very much in conflict with, with each other, or at least at, at odds with

21:10each other.

21:11Well, at least the, the, the connotations can be, uh, positive or negative depending on

21:17the context.

21:18Right.

21:19So the word in and of itself doesn't necessarily constitute a value judgment.

21:24The, the, uh, context must indicate if this is a positive or a negative value judgment.

21:31We just confusing for the worst sin of all, you know what I mean?

21:35Like that's, that seems a little weird.

21:37Yeah.

21:38And when it talks about pride in a negative way, it is almost always about people who

21:44are wealthy, people who Lord their power and their wealth over others and people who insist

21:51they're better than others, um, you know, like somebody who goes out and tweets about

21:57how God hates other people that doesn't like, um, and somebody who has a position of power

22:07and preeminence within a specific community and who relishes that and exploits it and

22:13all of that kind of stuff.

22:14Yeah.

22:15It does seem like, you know, having, I have had many encounters on the internet, not encounters

22:22with, but encounters with the work of pastor Driscoll and, uh, it does seem like it might,

22:30yeah, man, you're playing with danger dangerous, uh, you're, you're in the danger zone when

22:36you start talking about pride because that man is about as, as prideful and haughty and

22:45self, uh, not, not self assured.

22:50And that's the other thing.

22:51Like, we're not talking about self assurance or confidence.

22:54Mm hmm.

22:55We're talking about arrogance and, uh, and, and, and that sense that's, that, that you're

23:00better than other people.

23:02Well, and, and he was actually, uh, I think he resigned from his leadership of Mars Hill

23:08church in 2014.

23:10So 11 years ago, precisely for being verse verbally abusive, being arrogant and fostering

23:16a culture of fear and the elders, the elder board of Mars Hill, uh, found him guilty of

23:24being quick tempered and domineering.

23:27And, uh, and he resigned before the investigation concluded, claiming God had released him from

23:32his role, uh, and then he, uh, 2016 civil lawsuit filed by former members, alleged he

23:39misused church funds and engaged in a pattern of racketeering activity, uh, and then also

23:46I, I find this hilarious just because I have been learning an awful lot about the things

23:52people do to get on the best seller list.

23:54Oh, yeah.

23:56And he published a book in 2013 called a call to resurgence.

24:00And he evidently not only plagiarized, um, portions of the book, uh, but also, uh, his

24:08church paid over $200,000 to a marketing firm to artificially boost another book, real

24:15marriage onto the New York Times best seller list, something that he acknowledged doing

24:22and acknowledged was wrong.

24:25So, uh, so he has a history of, of doing precisely what his tech, the text of his tweet stands

24:33image, uh, would be condemning.

24:35And to my knowledge, uh, there's not been, I don't know about any public repentance for,

24:42uh, for what's, uh, for those kind of gross displays of, uh, of pride and arrogance and

24:50hotiness.

24:51When I look at, uh, other, you know, I, I, I found a, a sort of a bunch of Bible verses

24:59about pride, a little, you know, a little list of Bible verses about pride.

25:04And it's always the version of pride that is basically, uh, the antonym of humility.

25:13Yeah.

25:14Right.

25:15It is, it is the, it is the, and he even, even in his, uh, tweet, he talks about humble

25:21yourself before the Lord, but like he doesn't seem to talk about being a humble person.

25:28He says humble yourself before the Lord, but it does seem like in all, in a lot of these,

25:33you know, and I'm looking at James four, six, but he gives more grace.

25:38Therefore it says God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble, uh, Romans 12,

25:4416 do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, never be wise in your own sight.

25:51Uh, like all of those so clearly say to me a very specific thing and, uh, and I don't

26:01see people like Driscoll promoting that.

26:04Yeah.

26:05Yeah.

26:06He ain't that.

26:07Um, and, and we talked about, uh, Jordan Peterson's attempt to try to spin blessed are

26:13the meek.

26:14Right.

26:15That's right.

26:16Blessed are, are the, the absolute unit monsters who just sheathed their swords and

26:23practice, uh, discipline with, with these, these hands that are registered deadly weapons,

26:31but I could kill you, but I won't.

26:34And that means Jesus loves me, cause I'm better than you, cause I'm better than you.

26:39Right.

26:40Which, which sounds an awful lot like, like what Driscoll does, um, he, in 2024 at the

26:48Stronger Men's Conference in Springfield, Missouri, he was removed from the stage after

26:56publicly criticizing a sword swallowing performance by Alex Magala, a former stripper.

27:03Uh, he criticized it as demonic and akin to a strip show with a Jezebel spirit and, uh,

27:10they yanked him off the stage.

27:12I remember that one.

27:15I remember that, and then he later posted on, um, on Twitter about, uh, live streaming

27:22to discuss the Jezebel spirit to which she was exposed at the Stronger Men's Conference.

27:29Uh, it sounds like he's also currently, um, being accused of, uh, structuring a church

27:37he started in Scottsdale, Arizona to avoid oversight, uh, where everything ran through

27:43him and he started, uh, doing 24 seven surveillance of members of the church, uh, particularly

27:50one, uh, family who was shunned after their son kissed Driscoll's daughter.

27:56Oh, wow.

27:58Okay.

27:59Yeah.

28:00I mean, he's a peach.

28:01I mean, I think, I think the, we can all agree that he's just, uh, just a, a sweet kid.

28:08Yeah, but definitely a model of humility and definitely the antit, okay, that word didn't

28:15come out right.

28:16The antithesis, um, or as I used to say when I was younger, antithesis of, um, of a prideful

28:23person.

28:24Yeah.

28:25It's, it's so interesting to, to see how, how they want to twist that, and then I mean,

28:36this is part of the problem of all biblical interpretation.

28:40It's part of the problem of just language use in general is that, you know, we, the using

28:49of a certain, a specific word that has multiple meanings is always, is always a bit of a land

28:55mine, minefield, yeah, but when you're purposefully obfuscating, when you're purposefully pull

29:04in a switch, oh, change, oh, uh, I don't think it says anything good about you.

29:09No, it, it kind of reminds me of, of, of claiming just arbitrarily claiming, oh, I don't own

29:17all of the houses that I own God owns them.

29:20I'm, I'm just the humble steward.

29:23Yeah.

29:24Yeah.

29:25We're, we're, we're running the greatest hits here of guys.

29:28We just like Dave Ramsey, uh, all right.

29:32It's exploiting the ambiguities of language and, and, and just the making claims that

29:38you know are, are laughably false, uh, just for the, the rhetorical value and, uh, it's,

29:47it's pretty shameful.

29:48It's unbecoming of someone who claims to be a follower of the Prince of Peace, uh, and

29:54the one who said blessed are the meek, this is, and a, and, and a representative thereof

30:00as well.

30:01Yeah.

30:02Yeah.

30:03And it's, it's really just a representative of toxic masculinity, right wing authoritarianism,

30:07social dominance orientation, and, and basically just, uh, a naked thirst for power and influence

30:14and money, which is, which is exactly what pride is.

30:18Yeah.

30:19There you go.

30:20Okay.

30:21And I'm just going to flag that, uh, if your church leader delights in the idea of literally

30:27anybody writhing in pain engulfed in flames, maybe see that as a bit of a red flat.

30:34Yeah.

30:35Yeah.

30:36All right.

30:37Well, let us, let us then move on.

30:40We're going to, we're going to get, we're going to stick with the, uh, the jerks, uh,

30:44as we move on to our chapter and verse and for our chapter and verse, it's actually just

30:52verses and verses, various verses, verses, verses, verses, I tried to make the middle

30:58of V.E.R. as we're going to, we're going to put, we're going to pit versus again, versus

31:03versus versus.

31:04Right.

31:05Exactly.

31:06Yeah.

31:07Uh, anyway, what, so let's talk a bit.

31:09We did a show a couple of years ago about sort of does the, does the Bible actually condemn

31:16homosexuality, uh, and, and just a quick recap, you can go back and listen to it.

31:22Or watch it if you want to.

31:23But the quick recap is no, they don't, they didn't even know what homosexuality was.

31:29If we're talking about homosexuality as a reference to sexual orientation, which is

31:33what the overwhelming majority of the usage is directly pointing at.

31:39And you know, again, as much as I hate dictionaries, you can look in the OED and you can look

31:45in pretty much any dictionary that will be the first entry in there.

31:49Right.

31:50So, so yeah, it doesn't even, it doesn't have anything to say about homosexuality in that

31:56sense.

31:57Uh, it does have plenty to say about men having sex with men, says nothing about women having

32:04sex with women, not in the Hebrew Bible, it doesn't, because they didn't care.

32:09They didn't care because, and one of the things that we learn and, uh, uh, over and over again,

32:14is that like women don't count, you know, I mean, like they're, they're not, they're

32:20not even people in, in, in this, in, in this arrangement.

32:24And, and if we go back to the, the logic of marriage, it's a man purchasing the procreative

32:31capacities and the sexual availability of another woman from another man, usually her

32:35father.

32:36Right.

32:37And she was supposed to have that new car smell.

32:40The goods were supposed to be in pristine condition, meaning she had not been sexually

32:47penetrated by a penis, right?

32:51Which is why in many streams of Jewish tradition, even pretty traditional ones, a woman who

32:57has had sex with another woman is actually not the tainted goods that a woman who has

33:04already had sex with a man would be considered to be still a virgin, basically still a virgin.

33:10Um, so yeah, it's, it's as far as they understood the concept of virginity, which was precisely

33:17and we have, we have used these terms on this, uh, on the show before of a China that has

33:23been penetrated by a penis, right?

33:25And, and somebody made a one, I, I apologize, sort of forget which mutual of mine on social

33:30media made this wonderful point, uh, but they, they pointed out that men are so prideful.

33:38And so arrogant to talk about virginity as if their penis changes who a woman is, right?

33:48Yeah.

33:49Exactly.

33:50Like it's, it's not just a relationship that, you know, may or may not have any effect on

33:56her well being or her body or anything like that.

33:59But the notion that that penis somehow changes her state of being, yeah, just because it

34:05was the first is, uh, is the height of arrogance and pride and stupidity.

34:11Yeah.

34:12I just think, you know, and I think that one of the interesting things is that I think

34:16most basically all Christians in a modern context would very, would be very happy to

34:25say that they, that they disavow the idea of marriage is one man purchasing a woman

34:36from another man.

34:37Like that, I think we're all on board with that.

34:42So hopefully, yeah, I think there are some people in Davis County who probably are not

34:46quite there yet.

34:47Okay.

34:48Fair enough.

34:50Uh, but for the most part, if you presented it as, as that, uh, most Christians would

34:55reject that.

34:56So congratulations.

34:58You're already on board with rejecting a biblical sense of marriage.

35:03Yes.

35:05So why it is such a stretch for them to realize that like maybe they can take a, take a few

35:11steps further along that path and realize that all of the ways that ancient marriage

35:19worked aren't what we want and aren't, aren't, aren't relevant in a modern context.

35:26Yeah.

35:27You know, most, I think also most Christians would not be okay with, you know, polygamy

35:31and concubines.

35:33Uh, I think most Christians would be very much against that.

35:38And yeah, probably not big on eunuchs either.

35:40Yeah.

35:41Um, or, or what Paul's take was, you should all be celibate anyway.

35:46Yeah.

35:47Um, you know, if you can't hack celibacy and go ahead and get married, have your occasional

35:52prophylactic, passionless sex.

35:55Right.

35:56And, uh, but otherwise you should be living as if you were not married and John, John

36:02Harvey Kellogg view of the world.

36:04Yeah.

36:05And that which, and, and this fits with kind of the Greco-Roman Jewish notion, particularly

36:12among the, the intelligentsia of the people who are more informed about Greek philosophy,

36:17where sexual desire was one of the baser urges of the flesh where, um, there, there

36:22are some, uh, texts where it's like not only can you not have sex with your wife during

36:28menstruation, but once she's past menopause, it's over.

36:32Mm.

36:33And even with, and it, it might, it can only be done with the expressed intent of procreation.

36:39And even then, according to some authors, you're not supposed to enjoy it.

36:45So there are some who are like post menopausal, you know, we're not going to, we're not going

36:51to get hung up on that.

36:53Right.

36:54And, um, you know, you can enjoy it, but only if it is for the, with the express intent

36:58of procreation.

36:59And you know, that's the, that's the world into which Paul shows up and goes, boy, if

37:05I got a new approach for you guys, the world's about to end.

37:09So nobody changed their life circumstances, unless you can't hack celibacy.

37:15Cause the last thing we want is for you to engage in any sexual and moral activity because

37:19your, your urges got to pent up, um, to Urgy.

37:24Yeah.

37:25Yeah.

37:26They got to urgent.

37:27Um, so, but what, when we're, when we're talking about the, the passages that, that people,

37:34uh, retreat to when they need to demonize folks who just have a different sexual orientation.

37:41Um, when I first saw Mark's post, my initial idea was Sodom and Gomorrah, the more I look

37:49at it, the more I think it's probably intended to be hell, uh, which is, uh, a related, but

37:58a separate, uh, use of, of that imagery, but, but Sodom and Gomorrah is brought up an awful

38:03lot.

38:04And I have seen multiple appeals to Sodom and Gomorrah since yesterday, uh, which is in

38:10our timeline, June 1st, well, we're pushing it so that this week, so that, so that this

38:16show comes out at the early, early in the morning, so yeah, but, um, so, and, and we've

38:22addressed this before on the podcast.

38:25It is the official position of the data over Dogma podcast that the story of the destruction

38:30of Sodom and Gomorrah and Genesis 19 is not a story or a lesson about the evils of homosexuality.

38:37It is not even about gay people.

38:40It is about the use of the threat of sexual assaults against other men as a manifestation

38:48of gross inhospitality.

38:52And there are a bunch of ways to demonstrate this, um, and including one that somebody,

38:58somebody pointed out earlier, uh, in a, uh, in a video that was on, um, TikTok and there's

39:05another Bible scholar, um, Kevin Carnahan, do you recognize that name?

39:09No, um, he's, he's another, uh, PhD, uh, who's, uh, does wonderful work, but he was responding

39:18to this video and something that somebody was pointing out is that they don't think Genesis

39:2419, the main sin is, is the attempt to sexually assault angels because God was going to destroy

39:30the city before the angels ever showed up and you have, you have in, in chapter 18, uh,

39:36reference to, uh, or is it chapter 18 or is it, is it early in chapter 19, uh, you have

39:42a reference to, um, cries coming up to God's ears.

39:49Hmm.

39:50I've got to look for it.

39:51Um, but there are, there are cries that are coming up to God's ears and this is before

39:55the angels show up.

39:57And so the idea is, well, obviously it wasn't just about the, the men of Sodom threatening

40:04the angels with sexual assault.

40:05However it raises another question.

40:07If Sodom is so evil and their main sin is a homosexual orientation being attracted to

40:14other men and wanting to have sex with other men, where are the cries coming from?

40:20Right.

40:21Right.

40:22It's not the women because absolutely nothing in this story says a word about the women

40:30of Sodom and Gomorrah being spared and they are not even real.

40:35And here's the bizarre part.

40:36They're not even really considered people.

40:38No, no, because when God says go ahead, well, I was going to say this, the story of lot

40:45and his, you know, and how he allays the mob is by just chucking his daughters out to them.

40:54Like that's offering to.

40:55Yeah.

40:56Like you can't dehumanize a person more than to be like, no, you can't, you can't mob

41:03and rape my new guests, my house guests have these two daughters that I don't really care

41:10about.

41:11Yeah.

41:12They're virgins.

41:13Yeah.

41:14So that, yeah, it, it, it seems very much like the, yeah, the opposite, that's the opposite

41:19of honoring their personhood.

41:21Yes. And the same thing happens in the parallel story in Judges 19, right, where we have the,

41:30the owner of the house says, I got a daughter and the, and the Levite says, and I got my

41:36concubine and the concubine is the one who ends up getting shoved out into the crowd.

41:44Right.

41:45And then is sexually abused ultimately to her death, ostensibly the story doesn't make

41:50clear precisely when or how she died, but she was at death doorstep lying at the other

41:58person's doorstep.

41:59Yeah.

42:00And there's a different, the reason there's a difference between these two stories is

42:05because in Genesis, those two daughters are needed for later in the story because they

42:11are going to become the ancestors of the Moabites and I believe the Ammonites. They have to be

42:21there. They have to survive in order to sire these two ethnic lines, uh, incestually with

42:29lot.

42:30Yeah.

42:31And so some people will point to the fact that, Oh, the men refused the women, which

42:37shows they weren't attracted to women, which is entirely misguided because it, and, and

42:43they even the, the men of Sodom even say, we are going to treat, uh, because they're,

42:48they're offended by this. And they say, we're going to treat you worse than we're going

42:52to treat the other two, which is suggestive of a lack of consent. Right. So this is primarily

43:00about sexual assault and the only reason that the women do not end up getting sexually assaulted

43:05is because the author needs them for later in the story. In Judges 19, she is not spared.

43:12They act, they do sexually assault her, which shows it is about power. It is about shaming.

43:19It is about asserting dominance. It's about violence. It's about violence. It's not about

43:23sexual attraction.

43:26Well, and the other thing, and I just, I only realized this today as I was thinking about

43:33this for the, for the show, but I, one of the funny things to me about, you know, sort

43:39of harkening to Sodom as, as your point of reference for why, uh, why homosexuality is

43:47bad. Um, no homosexuality happens in that story. Yeah. It doesn't occur. Like the, there's

43:55a threat of it, but like, it doesn't actually happen. And, and just, and just threatening

44:01something is not really grounds for punishment. Like, the, the logic of, of their legislative

44:07system, the logic of their jurisprudence would not have considered that a crime. Right. And

44:13yet the, the, the cities are destroyed. And you're right. Like the cities were set to

44:17be destroyed before all of that happened. So yes, we have a Genesis 18, 20 and 21, then

44:22Adam and I said, how great is the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah and how very grave

44:27their sin, I must go down and see whether they have done altogether, according to the

44:31outcry that has come to me. And if not, I will know. Um, and when we look at Ezekiel,

44:39we have a description of Sodom's sin as pride and abundance of bread, prosperous ease. And

44:47she did not strengthen the hand of the needy. She was hotty and did abominable things. And,

44:55and the folks who want to center homosexuality in their understanding of that story are always

45:00like, uh, abominable things. That means homosexuality. Right. It could also mean eating shrimp. Right.

45:07Um, it's the last thing that's listed and it's not very specific, but threatening men with sexual

45:14assault would also fall under the category of abomination. So, uh, there's just, there are just

45:21no grounds for understanding the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah as being sexually attracted, men being

45:28sexually attracted to other men. That's, yeah. I don't, I don't like reading if

45:32sort of the celebration of pride month culminated in roving gangs of gay men,

45:40like beating down doors to, to, you know, sexually assault people's house guests,

45:47then I would think you could make a better argument for there's, there's a, you know,

45:54there, there's some sort of analogous situation here. But what people seem to be protesting against

46:00is like couple people just trying to live their lives in literally exactly the same way you live

46:07your life. Yeah. Why are, why are you so mad about that? Literally what they want to do is be

46:14boring people just like you in the suburbs, raising kids, you know, whatever, like just going to work

46:22and going back home again. What are you mad about? Yeah. And, uh, I love the, um, Sesame Street,

46:29the inventor, the creators of Bert and Ernie were like, uh, yeah, they're gay couple. Um, and

46:35somebody posted a photo, a still from Sesame Street where Bert and Ernie are just sitting in a living

46:41room in their, their lazy boys on opposite ends of the room from each other quietly reading in the

46:48evening. Yeah. And it was like, this is all they want. Why would you be mad at this? And then Sesame

46:55Street yesterday, I believe posted an image showing a bunch of, uh, furry muppet arms out there and

47:04grasping each other and the colors make the, uh, the rainbow and oh my gosh, the people who are like,

47:12keep all the sexualization out of this. It's like they're what? They're not bringing up anything

47:20related to sexualization. Show me on the doll where you see sexualization happening. Yeah. I do

47:26want to mention that like there's a lot of other, there are a lot of, uh, of passages that people,

47:34the people cite as being sort of against homosexuality. Uh, and then they use, and, and there are certain,

47:43uh, translate translations of the Bible that inflate this further. Um, the new living translation,

47:52for example, has Leviticus 1822 and Leviticus 2013 say, do not practice homosexuality, comma,

48:03having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin. Um,

48:09I don't think that's how I don't, I feel like that do not, I've seen other, uh, versions of that

48:18particular thing. And I don't remember saying do not practice homosexuality.

48:25And, and yeah, the, that word's not in there. That's not a word in, in biblical Hebrew. And here's,

48:31and here's another consideration of this. Leviticus 18 and 20, um, many scholars, many, many

48:37penitucal scholars will suggest that Leviticus is actually in, in coming up with all of these,

48:42with its legislation, it's actually following the narrative of Genesis. And so

48:49it would be coming up to Genesis 19 when it lists these, um, sexual sins. Okay. And so

48:57if Genesis 19 is really about threatening other men with sexual assault, then Leviticus's take on

49:05this would be a take on threatening men with sexual assault. It would be a kind of non-consensual

49:16relationship that is being reflected here per, and, and this is, uh, Leviticus 18 and 20 is H,

49:22the holiness code, which is post-exilic. It's relatively late. This is a time period when

49:28sexual ethics are undergoing a transition as they're being used to more clearly, uh, delineate

49:36the Judah height ethnic identity from the nations that are around them and now are much closer to

49:43them. And so you, this is where we have concerns for intermarriage with others. This is where the

49:50idol polemic comes into play. So the sexual ethic is now suddenly a lot more concerned about

49:55purity, ethnic purity, as well as the purity of the land because what happens in Leviticus 18

50:01and Leviticus 20, if you do any of these sexual sins, it generates a metaphysical contamination that

50:07will get out on the land and pollute the land and the land can only tolerate so much before it must

50:13vomit you out. So this is about a ritual purity of the land. And the idea is that whatever is being

50:23discussed in Leviticus 18, 20 is going to generate that metaphysical impurity. And, and so, yeah,

50:30practice home, practicing homosexuality is not in view. Right. Just, just, that's a mistranslation,

50:37pure and simple. And even if you just look at the language of the text, it talks about it, it probably

50:45is prohibiting a man from taking the insertive role in an act of male same sex intercourse. In

50:50other words, it's only prohibiting one of the actors in that act because it probably understands

50:58the other actor to not be consenting, or it probably does not account for the notion that anyone would

51:08seek out the the receptive role. And people will say, well, if you go to Leviticus 20, both of them

51:14are condemned to death. And that is because in all of these inappropriate sexual acts,

51:20both parties are condemned to death, whether consent is is presupposed or not. Even in the case

51:27of bestiality, right, where the prohibition is on having sex with an animal, the animal is also put

51:33to death. Yeah, they were pretty, they were pretty happy with the, the death penalty.

51:40They were pretty capital punishment was like their favorite, whoever wrote Leviticus. Yeah,

51:46and, and these were not people who had authority over anyone's life and death. And these laws were

51:50probably never actually enforced. But the fact that the animal is put to death is a clear indication

51:59that the idea is that this contamination is only purged through the death of both parties,

52:05right, without respect to consent or agency. And so, yeah, it's a lot more complex than,

52:13than people want to understand. It's, it's simply not, it does not have an understanding

52:20of a homosexual orientation. And, and I want to push on a little bit on something, because,

52:27you know, when you, I only learned just now when you said it, that this idea that Leviticus might

52:35be following Genesis in its, in its narrative, and that this was a reference to that. And if the,

52:41if Leviticus 18 and 20 are a reference to the Sodom thing, you said, you, you assumed that the

52:48author of Leviticus understood the Genesis understood the story of Sodom and Gomorrah in the way that

52:57we are understanding it now. Yes. Yes. But I, I wonder if they could have had an alternate,

53:05if they could have, if whoever wrote this may have understood it differently and may have understood

53:11it as the, the crime was the sex with a man as with a woman. I don't actually care. I mean,

53:18I know that it's being used to, to clobber people. And I think that the, I think that the more salient

53:24point is, look at what the thing is, look, you know, the sexual ethics of two and a half thousand

53:34years ago, aren't necessarily going to be applicable to now. And again, I, you know, I retreat to the

53:41idea that like you've already, if you've already rejected a lot of these concepts of, of, of sexual

53:49ethics that are biblical, because the Bible has some horrific sexual ethics. And I think we can

53:55all agree on that. And if you're okay with saying the Bible's sexual ethics are not always great,

54:02then why are you holding so tightly? Even if, even if what Leviticus is saying is very specifically

54:09just having sex, a man having sex with another man is a capital offense.

54:17That doesn't have to apply now. No. And I don't see why everybody thinks that like they can reject

54:24one thing, but it would be absurd to reject another. And, and even if you do, even if you do

54:29understand Leviticus 1822 and Leviticus 2013 to be, to be doing that, and even if you do think it

54:36should be authoritative, it's only about the land of Israel and the house of Israel. So even

54:43if you take it all seriously and say this is still the law of the land, it is quite explicitly

54:49about the land of Israel and the people of Israel. So if you're not either living in the land of

54:57Israel as it was constituted anciently, or a member of the house of Israel, then it doesn't apply to

55:04you even by its own standards, terms, I almost said, Sturms, couldn't decide on a word. I just

55:13got too quickly to that decision. I like that. So yeah, Sturms, and, and so you have no choice

55:22but to retreat to the New Testament, at which point you're again trying to appeal awkwardly,

55:29blithely, ignorantly to an outdated sexual ethic that is based on factually incorrect

55:36information. According to Paul in Romans 1, same sex intercourse is something that happens only

55:42among the Gentiles and only because they have failed so miserably to adequately worship God,

55:49that God is removing the governor, the natural limits that God places on sexual desire so that

55:56they run amok, resulting in same sex intercourse. And so according to Paul, if you are appropriately

56:04worshiping God, then that doesn't happen. That's not true. Paul appeals to nature to talk about why

56:13this is all wrong. That's not true. Paul's sexual ethic is just as outdated,

56:21outmoded, irrelevant to today. And so, and even if you do decide it's authoritative,

56:27what about the celibacy thing? Right. We've we've scratched that off the list because we don't

56:33like it anymore. What about the slavery thing? We scratch that off the list because we don't

56:37like it anymore. Like there's you have to be so inconsistent with your hermeneutic and your standards

56:45to want to leverage the Bible as a rhetorical bludgeon to clobber LGBTQIA plus folks.

56:54And it's very clearly because it continues to function as an identity marker and as a way for

56:59people to put their credibility and their piety on display. It's preying on the street corner,

57:06only in a way that results in other people dying. It's pride. Yes, it's pride.

57:13And so I think that's amazing. I feel like what we've come to is that Pride Month is a month for

57:26members of the LGBTQIA plus community to raise themselves up in a society that tries to push them

57:41down. And so their kind of pride, OED style, is a good positive good raising up pride.

57:52And Pride Month for people like Mark Driscoll are the times when they exhibit

57:57the most sinful kind of pride and just really hit it as hard as they possibly can.

58:03Yeah. So it's Pride Month on both sides. It's just Mark Driscoll, you're the one doing the

58:09bad kind of pride, not the rainbow coalition. Yes, Mark Driscoll, you need to grow the hell up.

58:18Boom. All right. Well, friends, thank you so much for listening to the show today.

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58:51it's contact@dataoverdogmapod.com. Thanks so much to Roger Gaudy for editing the show,

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