Ep 96: "Render Unto Caesar" with Congressperson Eric Swalwell

00:00I do think there's a difference between being anti-Christian and being anti-Christian nationalism.

00:09Being pro-secularism does not mean you're anti-Christian, and if we have not made that

00:14clear, then that's on us, and we should do a better job of doing that.

00:19I agree.

00:20I think you should.

00:21I think you all need to do a better job of that.

00:24Yeah.

00:25Hey, everybody, I'm Dan McClellan.

00:31And I'm Dan Beecher.

00:32And you're listening to the Data Over Dogma podcast where we increase public access to

00:36the academic study of the Bible and religion and combat the spread of misinformation about

00:42the same.

00:43How are things today, Dan?

00:44Things are good.

00:45It's a crazy time in these here United States of America, and in order to talk about that,

00:54we have a very special guest.

00:56We are bringing on an actual, like, you know, we've been talking about politics in America

01:02a little bit, and we've actually got a politic in America.

01:07We've got representative Eric Swell, well, welcome to Data Over Dogma.

01:11Thanks for joining us.

01:12Yeah.

01:13Thanks, Dan.

01:14Dan, I appreciate you having me on.

01:16You are the Democrat representative from California's 14th District, the fight in 14th.

01:22How are things out in the fight in 14th?

01:25You know, we are in the Bay Area, so we have been spared by the wildfires, but most of

01:31us have friends, family in Southern California, and so just a lot of gratitude to the firefighters

01:38who are on the front lines, but I'll be honest, it's just awful to hear the stories of friends.

01:46We have 10 friends in our family who lost everything.

01:51And so the scale of it is just beyond imagination.

01:57And right now, my experience is if you know somebody in Los Angeles that did not lose their

02:06home in Altadena or the Palisades, they know somebody who did.

02:13It's really very few degrees of separation, and the amount of time it's going to take

02:18to rebuild one of the most beautiful places on the planet is also disheartening.

02:27It's really rough.

02:28One of the founders of the podcasting network that we are affiliated with lost is home.

02:33So our hearts go on.

02:35Sorry about that.

02:36Yeah.

02:37Everybody out there.

02:38We brought you on to talk about some other things though.

02:41It is, our show is dedicated to the Bible, the scholarly study of the Bible.

02:49You are a practicing Christian, and that may surprise some people on the right.

02:55I don't know.

02:56The right wing right now in America thinks they own Christianity.

03:00And I think that it's very interesting when a Democrat comes on to talk about that and

03:07about the, you know, this week, as we record, we've had a whole bunch of craziness happen

03:14where, you know, with Bishop Bud, buddy, I don't know how she says her name, you know,

03:21she gave that talk at that prayer service at the National Cathedral and called for what

03:31seemed like a very normal thing, which is mercy to those who are in fear and, you know,

03:39to, to the stranger, to the, she, you know, she talked about LGBTQ people.

03:44Yeah.

03:45The weary traveler, which is going back to my Sunday school days in Algona, Iowa, going

03:53to our Lutheran community church was one of the first lessons that you're taught.

03:59Yeah.

04:00Yeah.

04:01It feels very odd to me when someone like, look, I don't, I don't believe that Donald

04:07Trump, that Christianity means much to Donald Trump.

04:11So when he called for an apology and said all sorts of nasty things about her, that didn't

04:15surprise me.

04:16But when Speaker Johnson tweeted that, uh, that she was, that what she said was shameful.

04:24I thought that that was a little bit nuts.

04:26Do you?

04:27What are your thoughts about that?

04:28And these guys are pretty fragile for a gang that ran on free speech.

04:35You know, their egos seem, you know, quite precious.

04:39And you know, I sat in the room on Monday where Donald Trump was sworn in and I listened

04:47to Donald Trump's speech and I listened to, you know, Reverend Graham's, uh, invocation.

04:53And I didn't agree with every part of it, but I took it like a man like that.

04:59It's their right.

05:00It's their right to say it.

05:01I, you know, I didn't, um, you know, whine or complain about it.

05:04And so that to me is also quite shocking that they could be so publicly bothered.

05:10Um, that, I mean, one, it, it tells me what kind of leader they are and two, it tells me

05:16what kind of country they want us to live in, which is a country that's free from dissent.

05:21And I, and I thought it was particularly odd to hear this from, uh, from Speaker Johnson

05:26in light of the fact that one of the first things he publicly said following the announcement

05:30of his appointment as speaker was that if you want to hear my worldview, just look in

05:35the Bible and there it is.

05:38And yet took significant umbrage with a person who's not a politician, but is the Bishop of

05:44the national cathedral was giving a sermon in their church and she simply offered a plea

05:52for mercy as if the political spectrum is okay to be influenced by Christianity, but

06:00uh, the religious spectrum cannot be influenced by Christianity if there are politicians present.

06:07Um, and, and I heard, uh, uh, one Ben Shapiro say that it would, uh, it would be abandoning

06:13his entire political agenda to show mercy to, uh, the trans kids who fear for their lives,

06:22uh, and undocumented immigrants, which, uh, it, it makes me wonder if, if, uh, the Christianity

06:28that is practiced by these folks is more concerned with preying on the street corner than it

06:32is for, uh, for the second great commandment, um, but it seems like power is being worshipped

06:38an awful lot more regularly, uh, than is, uh, Jesus, but I, I wanted to know something

06:44we, we have spoken with some folks who, uh, who are, um, actors living in Hollywood and

06:49you hear all kinds of things about, uh, what kind of people live and work in Hollywood

06:53and things like that.

06:54But I'm curious behind the scenes, you, you must know and engage with folks across the

07:00political spectrum, uh, in and outside of Congress who, uh, many of them are probably

07:06believers of one kind or another.

07:08Do you feel like, uh, religion is, is something that helps to bridge that gap or is it really

07:13as dichotomous?

07:14Is it really as divided within the halls of Congress as, uh, a lot of these public

07:19comments make it sound right now we are in this era where, you know, Christianity among

07:28my colleagues, you know, is not a religion, uh, of choice.

07:32Uh, it's the only choice that that's how they are approaching this.

07:37That's why I joined, uh, the free thought caucus, which is made up of a bunch of colleagues

07:43of mine.

07:44Um, some who are non-theist, uh, and then many who practice, uh, different faiths, but they

07:51want us to be, uh, a secular, uh, country that separates, you know, the government from

07:58any faith.

07:59So the opportunity for us to have, you know, a interfaith dialogue or, you know, a bipartisan

08:08Bible study, I think has been lost because of, of a Christian nationalism worldview that

08:14starts, as you said at the very top, um, from the speaker of the house.

08:19Yeah.

08:20Yeah.

08:21Yeah.

08:22Uh, you know, in signing a, uh, or, or when, when this house passed a bill about trans

08:30girls and women in sports, he cited Genesis as being the reason why, as being his, his

08:36reason why that would be okay, uh, as though Genesis, and he was very convinced that Genesis

08:43said, you know, that there were only two genders and, and the Genesis had anything at all to

08:49say about trans people. Yeah. And it's Genesis, not gender sis. Right. And he, and he literally

08:57said, uh, he said, when he was asked about it, he said, well, it goes back to the first

09:02book, Genesis male and female, he made them. I'm not sure there's another interpretation,

09:08but everybody's open to interpreting scripture. However they will. I just think when, when

09:15you hear your colleagues saying that there's only one way that you can do Christianity

09:24and then trying to inject that Christianity into their politics, how does that, how does

09:32that hit you? How does it, how do you respond to that?

09:34Yeah. By the way, I was raised in a very conservative, uh, household, a very Republican

09:40household, but Christianity and how it was projected to me from my parents and grandparents,

09:48was primarily, you know, about love over hate, uh, and the values, you know, from, you know,

09:55the teachings of Christ and particularly what those values meant, you know, for, uh, the

10:02less fortunate and to never, you know, alienate individuals, uh, because of the difference

10:08they may have, uh, with you. And so that, that bothers me a lot. And frankly that's why

10:16I, I don't, you know, lead, um, with my personal faith, uh, because if I'm being honest, maybe

10:25I should talk about it more. But if I'm being honest, I, I'm so disgusted by those who weaponize

10:32their faith to achieve political goals and I just have never been comfortable with that.

10:39You know, I, I went, uh, to Campbell University for my first two years, uh, in college, uh,

10:44a Christian college. I played Division One soccer on a scholarship. Uh, it's in Buies

10:50Creek, North Carolina. Uh, it's a Southern Baptist, uh, school and, you know, I, I was

10:57around, you know, just a number of individuals, uh, you know, who had very, very deep, uh,

11:04you know, conservative, uh, faith and interpretations of the Bible. And I was okay, you know, being

11:10around that, uh, but what I'm never going to be okay with is to suggest that there can

11:15only be one faith or that your faith is a justification, you know, for the denigration of others.

11:20And I, I, um, I also grew up in a, in a pretty conservative, religiously and social household.

11:27And my, and my parents have, uh, have since pivoted significantly, uh, but in fact, there's

11:34a degree to which they kind of drove my own, uh, radicalization, so to speak, in, in addition

11:39to a bunch of other experiences. But I wonder if when you think back on this, do you think

11:44of yourself as being radicalized or you, do you think of yourself as maintaining the

11:49same perspective as the scope of your experience in the world grew and you just kind of parted

11:56ways from, uh, from the conservative perspectives that worked within a more parochial, uh, setting?

12:04I was the first, my family to go to college and I transferred after two years from Campbell

12:09University to Maryland, the university of Maryland, uh, which, which had go Terps, which

12:15has one of the largest, uh, Jewish, uh, populations on the campus in, in the country. And I, to

12:22just find housing, I found a fraternity house that took me on as a border for a summer internship.

12:29And they agreed that I could stay in the house once I transferred, uh, as long as I would

12:34join the fraternity. And it was a Jewish engineering fraternity, but they were not hitting their

12:39numbers. And so they were willing to take on, you know, this non-Jewish, lower the bar

12:44on the non-engineering, uh, major. And, and so I learned a lot, uh, about that faith. And so just

12:51being in college, uh, and being away from, you know, how I was raised, uh, just opened me up to

12:57the importance of, you know, dialogue, you know, in an interfaith, uh, environment. And now I

13:03represent, uh, the largest Muslim district outside of Detroit. Uh, and so I have, you know, interacted

13:11with, uh, you know, the imams at, at our mosques in, in my district. And so it's only, I think, helped

13:20me, uh, be a better, uh, representative. It's so important, isn't it, to, to hit home the idea that

13:29all of these people are meant to be representing all of Americans. And yet that's not what we see.

13:37Uh, you know, if you, if you hear them talk, everybody in the country is a, you know,

13:43as a conservative Christian, except some like fringe outliers, some freaks that are out on the

13:49sides. But like, like you said, I mean, your district is special. You know, you know, you know,

13:55majority Asian district and, uh, you know, a heavy percentage of Hispanic, uh, people and all

14:02that sort of thing. Uh, but they're all supposed to represent all of us in such a way, or at

14:09very least honor the fact that this is a country of, uh, a multiplicity of creeds, beliefs,

14:16religions, all of those sorts of things. And I can tell you, as someone who isn't Christian,

14:21uh, I don't think that the non-Christians are feeling very honored or feeling very represented

14:26right now. Um, you know, we've got, they, they look at these policies now and they fear, uh, that

14:34it's no longer freedom of choice, uh, and that in their kids' schools, you know, there will be a

14:42Christian nationalist indoctrination of that. I understand why they would, you know, fear

14:47that is the case. And you have states right now, uh, that are going to require, you know,

14:52the Bible to be taught, uh, in classrooms, but at the exclusion of any other book, uh, of faith.

15:00And again, I, I understand why people are bothered by that. I'm okay with, you know,

15:05any classroom, you know, teaching, you know, the historic value, uh, of the Bible and, and what we

15:12can draw from that and how it's influenced, uh, cultures and civilizations. But there's also other,

15:18other books, um, you know, that have been quite influential, you know, for religions, uh, that have,

15:24you know, over a billion people, uh, who follow them. And so, uh, those are important too.

15:29And I think there's a, uh, particularly in places like Oklahoma, where there's no requirement that,

15:34that there be a Bible physically presence, uh, in every classroom, which obviously serves an

15:41iconic purpose, but no educational purpose whatsoever. And, and the rhetoric I hear from the folks who

15:47defend those kinds of policies always leans heavily into a revisionist history that sees, uh, the

15:55Bible and the Ten Commandments as, as foundational to our constitution and to our country, which,

16:01which is really just taking, um, Cecil B. DeMille's Ten Commandments and, and the rhetoric of the

16:08early 1950s and retrojecting it over our own foundation. And it, it baffles me how historically

16:15illiterate and awful lot of people who walk the halls of the, the temples in Washington, DC are.

16:22And, and I'm curious, um, what, what the, like there's, uh, I grew up just outside of DC, uh,

16:29in Gaithersburg. In fact, I, uh, I had uncles that went to, uh, played football for Maryland.

16:33Um, but I, uh, I always imagined that being in, in those places, the, the history would just be

16:42thick in the air. And I'm curious how, how, how much work they have to do to misunderstand and

16:51misrepresent the, the history, um, within which they, they walk and work every day. Or is there

16:58concern for this revisionist history, uh, among folks you work with? Are there attempts by, by

17:04scholars to come in and, and offer their services and correct some of this misinformation? What's it?

17:09So what's the understanding like? Jared Huffman, uh, I would say is the thought leader on the

17:15democratic side who has brought in, uh, you know, professors and, uh, scholars in the area of

17:23religion and that clash between the 10 commandments important and my personal life and the personal

17:29lives of many Americans, but with the First Amendment of the United States and, you know,

17:36that we have to take an oath when we are sworn in to defend the Constitution and faithfully

17:43execute its laws and that the First Amendment would not allow, you know, the 10 commandments,

17:48uh, you know, to predominate, uh, you know, over the laws of the United States. And, and so,

17:52Jared Huffman has done a great job and I think he'd probably be a good guest for the show. I'll

17:57recommend it to him. But what, what, you know, you speak about, um, you know, inconsistencies,

18:05particularly, you know, to, uh, scripture this week in Washington, uh, the president of the United

18:13States pardoned, uh, the sentences of 1600 individuals, uh, who committed, you know, the violent acts,

18:22uh, on January 6. And as the son of a police officer and a brother to two police officers

18:31and a former prosecutor, you know, I, I know that scripture, uh, teaches us, you know, through Matthew,

18:37uh, that blessed are the peacemakers, you know, for they are the children of God. And the peacemakers

18:44were not respected this week. And I, I've talked, you know, to many of the January 6 officers,

18:51over 150 of them, uh, were injured. Uh, many would go on, uh, you know, to lose their lives or, uh,

18:57take their own lives and to see that act. Um, I don't think you can derive anything if you, if you

19:06think, you know, the Bible, uh, you know, should guide everything we do in government. I don't know

19:10where you would look in the Bible to suggest that 1600, uh, individuals who stormed the Capitol,

19:16you know, should be released. Uh, and I do worry that a man who would release 1600 of his most

19:22violent supporters would also put in jail 1600 of his most vocal enemies.

19:29It, it seems possible. That definitely seems possible.

19:33Oh, there's so many things that I want to ask you, but we're, we're running out of time. So I'm,

19:41I'm, I think I do want to talk a bit about, and we've touched on this, but I want to talk more about

19:49the idea of secular government and how it seems like many of your colleagues

19:57don't buy into that idea. Don't buy into the idea that our government is meant specifically

20:05and overtly to be a place where that is secular, that is divided from religious practice.

20:13How can we, what can we do to get back to that set of ideals and, and, and how can we hold

20:20these, you know, some of your colleagues accountable who are not holding true to that, uh, ideal?

20:27I think it's, it's important, you know, for my colleagues not to be perceived as anti-Christian.

20:35That, that's really important. And that's in part why I wanted to come on, uh, your podcast,

20:42because I, I do think there's a difference between being anti-Christian and, um, being anti-Christian

20:50nationalism. Uh, and there, there's a different, you know, being pro secularism does not mean

20:56your anti-Christian. And if we have not made that clear, um, then that's on us. And we should do a

21:01better job of doing that, um, because I agree. I think you should. Yeah. Even my non-practicing,

21:11or non-theist colleagues, I don't believe they are seeking, uh, the minimum, minimization of

21:18Christianity or, uh, you know, erasing its effects in our culture or our lives. But if that's the

21:26perception in the Christian community, then it doesn't matter. And so you can understand why some

21:32in the Christian community, even though they may not buy into Christian nationalism and they may

21:37not buy into a government, you know, that is led, uh, you know, with a, uh, by the Bible rather than

21:43the constitution, they may see it as black and white. Well, you know, the Democrats, they're just

21:48absent of any faith or they don't believe that I have a right to my faith. And I may not agree

21:54with everything that Donald Trump's saying, but at least he's defending faith. So I think we have to

21:58recognize that that is sometimes the mindset out there and just, and, you know, make sure we reject

22:05any notion of that. Yeah. I think the, uh, one of my specializations that I wrote, um,

22:11my doctoral dissertation on was the cognitive science of religion. So I study why people believe

22:16what they believe and how it informs a lot of their identity politics. And I see an awful lot of

22:21in the rhetoric that I see coming from Christian nationalism is this us versus them mentality and

22:28a lot of the identity markers of Christianity are kind of bubbling to the surface as means of,

22:35of what I call costly signaling. It's a way to display your fidelity to the group,

22:39to other members of the in group. And it seems like they're in the driver's seat,

22:44an awful lot more than what's actually supposed to be, uh, the priority of, uh, a Republican government.

22:52And we can go back and look at the founders and the way they talked about this was, uh, was much

22:58clearer. I mean, you have, uh, even Madison, probably the most, uh, faithful believer among,

23:05uh, the early, uh, founders of the U S was, was adamant that religion stay out of it,

23:12that this be a secular government. And I, I am concerned that an awful lot of people see

23:18religion, not so much as a way of life, but as, uh, an implement a tool for advancing their own

23:26access to power and structuring power in ways that serve their own needs and interests. And there

23:32was a, there was a very wise man, thousands of years ago who said that the people who are best

23:36set up to exercise power are the people who do not want it. And I, it has always been my worry that

23:44the, uh, that Washington is, is inhabited by an awful lot of people who that's right,

23:51thirst for and worship power. Um, have you, uh, what has been your sense, uh, participating in, uh,

23:59in government about the, uh, the relationship of that thirst for power to a lot of the decisions

24:04that are being made there. Yeah. Well, I can speak for myself personally. You know, my, my

24:09relationship, uh, you know, with faith is, is my connection, uh, to God, personal connection

24:19to God. And I fear that many of my Republican colleagues, uh, their relationship to faith is

24:25defined, you know, by a connection to power and a means of achieving political goals. And I'm

24:33fascinated by this idea because it's often the alibi that they use to defend the acts of Donald

24:41Trump, that he is a king David like figure and imperfect vessel. And so, you know, for, you know,

24:48their, their policies, uh, in various areas to be executed, um, they need this imperfect vessel.

24:57And therefore the means, uh, the end, uh, justifies the means to get there. And that,

25:04that's very, very dangerous because I, I frankly

25:11call BS on Donald Trump, having any interests, you know, in a deeper understanding of

25:19the Christian faith. I think he recognizes that they see him as this imperfect vessel. And he has

25:27masterfully, you know, weaponized that. And on our side, we have not done a good enough job of

25:34aligning with the faith community. And so again, that's, that's a little bit of shame on us.

25:41Um, but that is very dangerous when callings of mine of faith are so willing to make excuses

25:48for him because they see him as the means, uh, to get to their political end.

25:53Well, I think, I think we'll have to close it on that note. Yeah. Thank you so much, uh,

26:00representative Swalwell for joining us. We appreciate it. Uh, maybe, you know, hopefully

26:06things can, we, we have hope, but, uh, not a lot of hope for the upcoming four years. Uh,

26:12get up there. I'm, I'm a father of a seven year old, a six year old and a three year old.

26:17And I see it as a parent is being, you know, contractually optimistic. Like you have to be

26:24optimistic on their behalf, uh, whether you want to or not. All right. Well, get out there and, uh,

26:29make our optimism worthwhile. Will you? I will. All right. Dan. Dan. Thanks guys.

26:35Thank you so much for your time. Representative.

26:37Well, then hopefully, uh, people didn't think that that was the end of the podcast that we do have.

26:45We do have more. Uh, it was very nice of representative Swalwell to join us.

26:50Uh, one day we are going to end on the 30 minute mark. We're just going to be like, well,

26:55see everybody and, um, hey, it's our show. We can do whatever we want, but we try to maximize the,

27:01the value for our, for you, our listeners and yours. Yeah. So today is not that day as the great,

27:08not what one said. Indeed. Uh, so we thought that since we, let's keep with a theme, man.

27:16Let's keep it. Uh, let's keep things political. Uh, on this week, this week, we're going to do a

27:22chapter and verse. And this week's chapter and verse is, uh, well, we, we got a few different

27:32chapters and verses, but I wanted to talk about sort of what the Bible has to say about local

27:41government. Um, it became an issue, especially in the new Testament that Jesus was asked about a

27:50number of times, uh, including asked at least once, but the story is repeated a number of times.

27:58Well, there's that. Absolutely. Uh, and that story, the story that you're referencing, um,

28:03yeah, as, as you put it, when I asked you for a, uh, this, what scripture you said, well,

28:08the first time it appears is in Mark. Uh, so we're looking at Mark chapter 12. Uh, and then down

28:17just a little bit, uh, in verse 13, this is, this is the story of, uh, Jesus being asked about

28:25whether or not they should pay taxes. Yeah. To a leader, uh, to Caesar, a leader that they thought

28:35they, they, they couldn't agree with. Yeah. Yeah. And it was, well, really the, the idea here is to

28:43try to trap Jesus in the NRSVUE. It says they sent him some Pharisees and some Herodians

28:50to trap him in what he said. Those sneaky Herodians. Yeah. They're always trying. They're always

28:56setting traps. Yeah. They're, uh, and, and not the, not the fun mouse trap game that we used to love

29:03when we were kids, um, that nobody ever actually played. You just set it up and then just set it up

29:08and yeah, there was a game attached to that in some way. It wasn't there. I don't remember.

29:14I have no idea. I have no idea. Yeah. But, uh, so Pharisees and Herodians would be the, the,

29:19the Pharisees were a little less, um, willing to go along with Rome. They were a little more

29:28radical in that regard, the Sadducees, because they were, um, tied up with the administration of

29:34the temple and because that was tied up with Rome, they were a little more, um, in bed with, uh,

29:43Greco-Roman society. The Pharisees tended not to be, but here they're being teamed up with Herodians,

29:48which would be Jewish folks who are, who, um, who like Herod the Great. He's their, their

29:53great representative. He's going to make Judea great again, uh, basically. And these are, um,

30:00and because these are the Jewish folks who are like, he's our guy. Um, they're calling them Herodians.

30:05Okay. So they send it. Yeah. I didn't know that that's who that was, you know, while you're into

30:11explaining who are the Pharisees. Uh, so the Pharisees are one of the main, uh, schools of thought

30:18within Judaism, one of the main streams of tradition. They are the ones who end up becoming what, what

30:24becomes rabbinic Judaism. They are the rabbis, uh, that's, that end up establishing rabbinic

30:31Judaism. Once the temple is destroyed around 70 CE, the Sadducees are the folks from the

30:36priestly families who are, um, like I said, tied up with temple administration. The Pharisees

30:43don't have that kind of access to power, but they're the ones who oversee the training of, uh,

30:48of scribes and the training of rabbis. And they're the ones in charge of the synagogues and things

30:54like that. And so they're, they're go ahead. They see, they see the Pharisees seem to be used in, uh,

31:00much, many of the New Testament, uh, narratives as, as a foil or as a sort of, uh, almost the bad

31:07guy, uh, coming into, to challenge Jesus and trick him and to, to, you know, it's, it's almost

31:16like, uh, yeah, it feels, it feels very much like they're the antagonists to, to our, our protagonist.

31:24Yes, they, they are definitely set up as the antagonist in, in a lot of ways. Now, not all the

31:29ways there are, there are several, uh, upstanding Pharisees in, in the gospels. And then Paul was,

31:35was a Pharisee as well. Uh, but they are represented as, uh, in a negative light in the, in the gospels.

31:41Now, once you get to John, they're all kind of homogenized. John just refers to the Jews

31:46in a very negative way. And so there, we do have to be careful about this. Sometimes people use

31:51Pharisaical as, as a pejorative, as an insult. And that's, uh, quite anti-Semitic. Because like I

31:57said, the Pharisees are, are the group that would become rabbinic Judaism, which is the main thrust,

32:03the main tradition, stream of tradition of Judaism down to today. So, um, we, we don't truck with, uh,

32:11with using Pharisee pejordively, uh, on the Data Over Dogma podcast. But, uh, in this story,

32:18the, the Pharisees with the Herodians and, and you can imagine these are, these are the guys who

32:23don't like being sent out together, uh, the elbow in each other the whole time and, and, um,

32:29not wanting to, to let the other speak. And they, uh, and they came to, and, and the idea here is,

32:35is they want to try to trap him and have him say something that they could represent as being

32:40anti-Roman because they want to, uh, they want to have an excuse to accuse him to the Romans. Um,

32:47and they came to him and said to him, teacher, we know that you're sincere and showed deference

32:51to no one where you do not regard people with partiality, but teach the way of God in accordance

32:55with truth. Uh, and, and so here they're, they're buttering him up there. They're baiting him. Yeah.

33:01Yeah. And, uh, and they say, is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar or not? Because they want him to be

33:07like screw Caesar. Um, and, and then they can be like, he said it. He said it. He said it. And they

33:12can get, uh, the centurions to go, ho, ho, ho, ho, ho, ho, and down to, uh, to arrest him. And, uh,

33:20and then in verse 15, this is, but knowing their hypocrisy, he said to them, why are you putting

33:26me to the test? So letting them know, I know what you're trying to get at you. Um, you, uh,

33:31non clever little, uh, foxes. And he says, bring me a denarius and let me see it. And a denarius was a,

33:39a type of coin, uh, that's, uh, was worth like a, a full day's wage for a Jewish person in this time

33:46period. And what's interesting is we think we know exactly what this coin would have said,

33:52because, uh, there were only two denarii that were, uh, minted during Tiberius's reign. And one of them

33:59was, was not minted for very long. And the other was, was quite widespread and white,

34:03quite famous. And so that's almost certainly what coin, uh, the author had in mind here.

34:10And this coin has an inscription on it on one side. It has the, it has Tiberius crowned with a laurel.

34:16And, uh, the, there's an inscription around him and it's abbreviated, but it says Tiberius Caesar,

34:23son of the divine Augustus, and then comma Augustus. And the idea is son of Augustus himself,

34:32Augustus, Augustus, the, the, this, um, imperial title. So this is an image of a human ruler that

34:40is also calling him divine. So, right. So there's a lot of, yeah, there's a lot of, uh, of theological

34:46significance to what's going on with this coin. Um, and then the back, uh, it says, uh,

34:54Pontifex Maximus or high priest. And then there's a picture of a seated lady who probably represents

35:00Pax, uh, the embodiment of the Roman Empire, the Pax Romana. So, uh, or peace, Roman peace. Right.

35:10Yeah. Uh, and, uh, so they brought one, they brought a denarius. He was like, give me, give me one of these,

35:15denarii. Let me see one of these. And then, you know, they're probably like, I just got a couple

35:20of pennies and, uh, they probably took him a while to, uh, to get one, but they bring him one. And he

35:25said, whose head is on this and whose title? And they answered Caesar's Jesus said to them,

35:30give to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God, the things that are gods. And they were

35:36utterly amazed at him. Cause you can imagine their sphinxian riddle.

35:44It doesn't seem like that's utterly amazing, but. Yeah. No, no, they're, they're easily amazed.

35:49But you can imagine him just hooking this back at him. Right. Yeah.

35:54What he should have done was just taking the denarius and walked away. Thank you.

35:59Done a little magic trick. Whoo. Okay. Okay. I'll put it in my denarius.

36:05But oh, it's gone. What denarius? I didn't see any denarius. Okay. So I mean, the, uh, the

36:18implications of this beyond just sort of do, do we pay our taxes? Yes, we do. It seems like there

36:24is a larger implication to this story. Uh, it's repeated in multiple, uh, gospels, gospels,

36:32the synoptic gospels. Yes. The words are not coming to my brain, but yes, it's repeated

36:36in the synoptic gospels, which means that it's got to, you know, presumably it is of enough

36:42importance that all of these authors thought to put it into their story. Um, what, what do you

36:48think it is beyond just pay your taxes to the Romans? Well, I think it's also, um, just supposed

36:56to be mainly, I think it's just a demonstration of how, uh, Jesus managed to, managed to wriggle

37:02out of their little, uh, rhetorical snare, just another example of, uh, uh, uh, you know, if you

37:09imagine like an old, uh, old Looney Tunes cartoon where you have Wiley Coyote, like there's a scene

37:16where he's strapped himself to a rocket and, and fires it off and, you know, hits the side of the

37:21mountain and he's all charred and everything. And then you just start a new scene where now he's got

37:26some roller skates or something and he's like, it's, it's just, um, vignette after vignette of them

37:32trying to, um, trying to foil him and trying to trap him and him every time just deftly, um,

37:39sidestepping, uh, their, their attack. And so I think that's also rhetorically in play here.

37:46Uh, but, but yeah, the idea is, is probably also that, Hey, we got to live in this empire.

37:51So, um, you know, we can't be isolationists. We can't be, we can't be revolutionaries because

37:59that's going to cut our movement quite short. Uh, we can't win against these guys by, uh, by just,

38:05you know, giving them the finger every time. Uh, and, and, and so I think the idea is, just say we

38:11can, we can live in this world. We can, um, you know, they have the power of, of life or death over

38:17us. So we can do what they, uh, what they require as long as it's not, uh, compromising our principles.

38:24I think I wonder if, and I, I, you know, I was trying, I was baiting you for this, but, but you

38:30didn't take the bait. I wonder if, um, you know, in light of our conversation with Representative

38:36Swalwell, like there is, to my mind, when I read that, I feel like there is an undertone of,

38:44uh, of separation between your, uh, spiritual life and just sort of daily life and, you know,

38:52being subject to a government is fine being so, you know what I mean? Like that's a different thing

38:57than what we're all doing here in the temple sort of thing is, is, is, would you say that

39:03that's a valid interpretation? Uh, yeah, I think that, I think that plays into it that, uh, that we

39:10got to live in this world. So obviously there's a, there's a, a civic dimension to our lives that,

39:17that we can't just entirely neglect. We've still got to participate in this thing. And, and what's

39:23interesting though is, um, the contrast of this with the book of revelation, because you'll recall

39:29that part of the book of revelation is, is talking about, um, receiving the mark and the mark. It's

39:35in the right hand or it's on the forehead and you can't buy or sell without the mark. And there's

39:39an argument to make that this, this imagery represents the, um, the intersection of a bunch of different

39:46ideas. You've got counterfeit, uh, ritual, uh, but one of the things that the mark probably represents

39:53is precisely Roman coinage because it has the, uh, the image of, uh, Nero, who is supposed to be

40:04the beast and it has the name of Nero and you would exchange it with your right hand and you

40:10can't buy or sell without that Roman coinage. So I think there's a degree to which the book of

40:16revelation is kind of going against this and say, no, we are going to be separatist. We are going

40:20to entirely cut ourselves off and, uh, we're going to be isolationists and we're going to go out,

40:25uh, into Ruby Ridge in Idaho and we're going to be, um, you know, what, what do they call them?

40:31Sovereign's, whatever. Sovereign citizens. Yeah. Yeah. This is, uh, we're, this is our own country

40:37and, and we're going to mint our own money. You know, like there's a degree to which revelation

40:41is kind of leaning into that. But I think the, uh, the gospel authors here are like, man,

40:47you got to make a living. Yeah. You got a, you got to, um, got to play this game.

40:51And, and there's a lot of people with varying beliefs all around us. Uh, and we're all, you know,

40:59we all got to get along. We all, you know, it's, I think, I think part of the idea, I mean, I guess

41:03just last week we talked about people very much not getting along with the people around them and,

41:10instead just, you know, genociding them completely. I tend to think that the, uh, that the getting

41:17along version is better than the genociding version. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and, and we even have,

41:24and I think Paul does this as well. And, and this brings up another passage that an awful

41:29lot of people, uh, like to talk about when it comes to the legitimacy of government. And that's

41:34Romans 13 one. And, and I would argue that this passage is doing the exact same thing. Um,

41:41because we got a Romans 13 one from the NRSVUE let every person be subject to the governing

41:47authorities for there is no authority except from God and those authorities that exist

41:51have been instituted by God, therefore, whosoever resists authority, resists what God has appointed,

41:58and those who resist will incur judgment. And I cannot tell you the number of times that I've

42:03heard people sort of echo that idea when their guy is in power. And suddenly that idea completely

42:11disappears from their theology. The second, the, the person that they didn't vote for gets into power.

42:19It's a, it's a sticky wicked that I, yeah. Yeah. It is, it is a very, uh, it is a wicked that

42:25very much sticks. Uh, and, and we talked a little bit about Mike Johnson, uh, with, uh, representatives

42:32while well, and he's one who, uh, a sighted Romans 13 one. And somebody was like, well,

42:40does that mean that God wanted president Biden in power? And he had to kind of, he hemmed and

42:45hawed a little bit and finally finally had to be like, sure, whatever. Sure. Yeah. I guess so.

42:50Because it does. I mean, really doesn't it mean that it means whoever's in power is supposed to be?

42:57Well, and, and I think it is like, yes, that's, that's one way to read it. I think it can be, um,

43:04maladapted, however, to be used to mean you're not allowed to question the powers that be. And

43:13this is where I think we get into a misreading and we've talked about this before on the channel.

43:16But keep in mind this is, this is Paul who thinks the world is going to end too soon for anybody

43:22to even think about getting pregnant. Yeah. Like it's coming. Don't change anything.

43:29It's like, don't get a haircut. Don't have tight. Don't move. Yeah. It's in the mail and he's writing

43:36to Rome to the people in Rome. And he's like, oh, yeah, yeah, Rome's cool. Yeah, instituted by God.

43:45That's the only, it's the only kind of power you have. That's the only authority you have. And,

43:48and it's, um, it's kind of, uh, um, striking this conciliatory tone because he wants to go to Rome

43:56and he doesn't want to be imprisoned and killed. No, that's ultimately what happens to him. But,

44:03um, but this is rhetoric that is intended to placate the Roman authorities to, to suggest, oh, see,

44:11he respects our authority. Uh, he's, he's just, uh, and, and Paul didn't think that there would be a

44:18bunch of other empires that came after Rome. Paul wasn't worried about, well, what does this mean

44:23about this other, uh, president over here or this, um, king over here or, uh, this, uh, member of

44:32parliament over here. I don't even, I can't even remember what they call the, the head member of

44:36Parliament. Oh my gosh. Prime Minister is brief. Yeah. That is the phrase that I was fumbling, uh,

44:43around looking for. So Paul had not wasn't thinking about that. He was not making some kind of

44:48universal eternal declaration that all leaders across all time and space are always instituted

44:55by God. Paul is just making the Romans happy. Right. So, um, so it's, it's a ridiculous thing

45:02to try to, to leverage in order to say you're not allowed to question authority. Uh, and it's,

45:09it's never consistently leveraged anyway. It is always, right, very selectively leveraged

45:15to, uh, to prop up your guy. Well, and that, and, and yeah, we've pointed out the problem with that

45:22because then, uh, when someone else on the other side says, okay, same Z's, uh, for our guy,

45:29it's not going to go well. So it can't mean what they're, you know, when someone deploys that

45:36scripture as a, as a means of saying, you know, you have to live, our guy has impunity, uh,

45:45bestowed upon him from God. Uh, that cannot be what this means. It's, it's, it doesn't make any

45:54sense to have that because they would never ever allow that that was the case. You know,

45:59for, for the opposition. Yeah. Yeah. And, and it's, it's used to gloss over all kinds of problems

46:07with leaders who are, uh, serial adulterers and rapists and criminals, uh, and things like that.

46:14You don't have to list all of Trump's qualifications.

46:18But, you know, if, if it were, uh, 30 years ago and the question were, were, uh, related to,

46:28to one of Monica Lewinsky's, um, uh, acquaintances. Yes. The argument would be exactly opposite

46:36because the priority is, is always structuring power. It's, uh, it's never subordinating yourself

46:43to the principles that you assert. It's always using principle, whatever principles you can to

46:49validate your own power. Yeah. Which, uh, which unfortunately is, um, is something that in the

46:56Bible, they so frequently speak directly against. Um, well, I mean, as we've learned the, I mean,

47:05the Bible is so easily deployable. Yeah. You, no matter what point you're trying to make,

47:12you're, if you're, if you're trying to structure power around, uh, the Bible,

47:17you're probably going to be able to find some passages that will support you. Yeah. And I think

47:24that's part of the problem is that like, people, these, especially these politicians who are in power

47:32should not be allowed. We should be holding them to account for deploying biblicals,

47:38for deploying scripture as a means of saying, this is why it's okay. You know, as we, we mentioned

47:45earlier when Mike Johnson passed the, uh, the bill forbidding trans girls in, in sports and

47:53women's sports, uh, he, he cited a Bible verse that is silly to cite. Yeah. But it, but he used it

48:04as a means of trying to shut down the conversation, uh, and trying not to be held to account. And I

48:10think that that is, uh, the big problem with allowing and, and, and, and even, and you know,

48:19lately encouraging biblical arguments from our representatives from our politicians.

48:28Yeah. There's, um, the, the Bible is the, the most flexible choose your own adventure book

48:38that's out there. And unfortunately far too many people are choosing the path of, uh, of being the

48:46villain. And, uh, in, in that choose your own adventure. And, and yeah, that they should be,

48:51they should be called out for that. And, uh, and their hypocrisy should be exposed.

48:56And, and you know, that, that happens to one degree or another. It's, it never happens in a way

49:03that's authoritative. Uh, it very rarely ever, um, happens in a way that's louder than the support,

49:11which is, is part of the problem. We've got far too many people who are willing to, uh, to mortgage

49:16their, their relationship with their religion and with the Bible for a mess of, of political

49:22pottage. Um, so yeah, it's, it's a shame that, uh, that far too many people are worshiping power

49:30and confusing it for Jesus or God. Um, but yeah, I don't see it going away anytime soon.

49:38Yeah. Well, there you go. Uh, get, get out there friends and, uh, and, and campaign against,

49:46Kim, get, get involved in your politics until, until we get a secular government back. That's

49:53what I would say. Yeah. I didn't even have to be our left versus right thing. Just, yeah,

49:58just, uh, it's really important to have, to have a secular government.

50:05And there, there are a lot of positions there. There are a lot of things you can do in,

50:08in local government that are not even, um, where they don't even ask. You don't run based on party.

50:15Yeah. Um, and, and so you can go get involved in a lot of different ways and local government,

50:20go be on your, uh, your school community council. I was on my daughter's school community council

50:25for a while, got to see how the sausage is made and you, uh, you don't want to see it.

50:32Yeah. That was, uh, that was some rough sausage, but, um, you can do all kinds of things to, uh,

50:38to get involved. Yeah. Go, go give a satanic prayer at a, at a, at a political place that

50:48shouldn't have prayer at all. Uh, all right. Well, that's it for this week's show. Thank you all

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