Ep 91: Star Spangled Christian Nationalism With April Ajoy

00:00Like, when I take a step back, I'm like, "No, y'all are demonizing me, and you're celebrating

00:07this man as someone that Jesus would choose to lead our Christian nation?"

00:14I'm like, "Are you reading the Gospels at all?"

00:18Hey, everybody, I'm Dan McClellan.

00:23And I'm Dan Beecher.

00:25And you are listening to the Data Over Dogma podcast where we increase public access to

00:29the academic study of the Bible and religion, and combat the spread of misinformation about

00:34the same.

00:35How are things today, Dan?

00:37It's a Star Spangled Day here on the Data Over Dogma Show.

00:40I notice you're wearing a red sweatshirt, and my first impression was a Buffalo Bills

00:46jersey.

00:47And I was like, "It can't be that."

00:49No, it's not that.

00:50Because...

00:51I mean, you should be happy.

00:52These are Denver Bronco colors.

00:54Yes.

00:55Mostly.

00:56I'm just kind of an orange and orangey red and blue.

00:58Anyway, let's get off of fashion because most of our listeners, at least, our YouTubers

01:04can see, but our listeners can't see what I'm wearing.

01:07And let's get on to our guest this week.

01:12Do you want to introduce her, Dan?

01:14Yeah, absolutely.

01:15Today, we are very privileged to have with us April a Joy.

01:18Welcome to the show, April.

01:20Hello.

01:21Thank you for having me.

01:22Thank you for being here.

01:24We appreciate it very much.

01:25And April is the author of a new book, Star Spangled Jesus, Leaving Christian Nationalism

01:29and Finding a True Faith.

01:32April is another content creator, a podcaster who hosts the Friday shows of the New Evangelicals

01:41and has also been working in journalism, to one degree or another, for quite some time.

01:47She has been featured on BuzzFeed, CNN, Newsweek, and more, and she's been married to Beecher,

01:54for 10 years, and they have two daughters together, which is wonderful.

01:59I am a girl dad with three daughters, but some people might be a little more interested

02:04to hear about this Beecher connection.

02:07Well, I mean, I'm going to save it.

02:10We're going to save some of the Beecher talk for the after party.

02:15There we go.

02:16So if you're really interested in some wacky name talk about Beecher, make sure that you're

02:25a patron and come over on Patreon.

02:27It's not that common of a name.

02:29No, it is.

02:30No, it is not.

02:31It is not.

02:33And even less common, I think, as a first name.

02:36Yes.

02:37So, yes, your partner is in rarefied air, but I have met one other person with the first

02:45name Beecher, and I'll talk to you later.

02:49And April, you also are, you are a TikToker, you are, you put a lot of content out into

02:56the world.

02:57I think a lot of our listeners probably follow you on TikTok and in other places.

03:02Yeah.

03:03That's kind of where it all started on TikTok.

03:05So I don't know what's the future of TikTok.

03:08Yeah.

03:09Yeah.

03:10Me too, TikTok people are screwed, but that's why we have a podcast.

03:17Yeah.

03:18Well, and I know April from, mainly from a lot of thought provoking content on social

03:24media, particularly TikTok and elsewhere, but also a lot of comedy.

03:28You like to do some role playing skits and use comedy to kind of, I don't know, break

03:35down walls of defenses, but at least get some, a little bit of joy out of, out of what you're

03:41doing, which is, which is primarily combating Christian nationalism, combating a lot of the

03:47harm that is inherent in Christian nationalism and the kind of, the kind of fundamentalist

03:55conservative evangelical Christianity that is so prominent these days.

04:00Can you talk a little bit about, we'll, we'll get to the content creation later, but can

04:05you get everybody up to speed on your background?

04:08Sure.

04:09All right.

04:10All right.

04:11That's not, if that's not too big an ass.

04:13How far back do I go?

04:14I mean, yeah, because you are, I mean, let's, let's set the scene, man.

04:18You, this book Star Spangled Jesus, which by the way, is a, is a fun exploration of Christian

04:27nationalism and everything.

04:29That's with the confession that you were unknowingly a Christian nationalist yourself.

04:36Yes.

04:37And I do think, you know, as I've studied this topic and then reflected on my own time inside,

04:44you know, conservative white evangelicalism, I've realized that one reason why it's so,

04:49it can be so difficult to stop Christian nationalism is because it kind of hides in plain sight

04:56of just American evangelicalism and that so much, so many people.

05:00And I think even today, most people who perpetuate Christian nationalism don't realize that their

05:06faith has been co-opted by that ideology.

05:08They think they're just being good Christians.

05:10And I thought I was just being a good Christian, you know, love God, love people, although

05:14exclusions did apply and vote Republican, you know, we, we elevated the GOP with God,

05:22you know, GOP, GOD.

05:23They were pretty much interconnected.

05:26You, you came into this pretty heavy.

05:30You basically came out swinging because you were a pastor's kid, right?

05:34I was.

05:35I was a combo because I was a pastor's kid.

05:37My grandfather was a pastor of a large church in Dallas when I was growing up.

05:41And this was in the 90s, 80s, 90s, so pre mega churches, really, like they weren't really

05:47a thing back then, but my grandfather's church had 4,000 members at the time.

05:52So that was pretty big, but my dad, my dad co-pastored with him when we were home.

05:58So I had the, the pastor's kid experience, but my dad was also an evangelist and a kind

06:04of a missionary and different point.

06:05So we traveled.

06:06I was homeschooled.

06:07By the time I was 18, I'd been to 31 countries.

06:12And so, and then when we were stateside, we traveled in a motorhome, going to all these

06:16different churches and my dad would preach and then me and my two brothers and my mom,

06:20we would sing before he would preach.

06:22It was kind of like a family affair, very immersive.

06:27And almost none of your life was not about Christianity and Jesus.

06:33I mean, the motorhome that you traveled in was plastered with the, with the phrase America

06:38say Jesus.

06:39Is that right?

06:40Yeah.

06:41That was our second motorhome.

06:42Oh, okay.

06:43That was post 9/11 when we really kind of amped up the nationalism part.

06:50Oh man.

06:51So the righteous gemstones was, was probably just a slightly wealthier version of, of what

06:57you grew up with in some ways.

06:59Yeah.

07:00I would say there's definitely similarities to righteous gemstones minus the cussing.

07:05Okay.

07:06And yeah, I would say like you, I wish they would have tapped.

07:12This is a total sidebar, but I wish HBO would have tapped like someone from that world or

07:17a head just, because I, there's so many ways to make that world genuinely funny.

07:22That's a little more true.

07:23Cause some, some of the stuff that's in that show, I'm like, eh, yeah, yeah, that don't

07:27think that that's as realistic.

07:29But yeah.

07:30Are you listening HBO?

07:31April is putting herself out.

07:32Yeah, hire me.

07:33I can be a writer.

07:37And let, and I don't want to even get into next Netflix in their Mary show, which they're

07:41only consulted with somebody with a BA.

07:44But anyway, Mr. PhD over here is really, it's not a big deal, but you mentioned that this

07:53is something a lot of Christians aren't even aware as, as co-opted evangelical Christianity.

07:59And something that a, a through line of a lot of these chapters was you talking to kind

08:05of about how you felt intuitively about these things.

08:09And there was a slow shift as intuitively it began to make less and less sense to you.

08:16And intuitively, it began to feel more and more natural to sympathize with the folks that

08:24were on the other side of the aisle from you in, in your childhood.

08:29And that's something that within the cognitive science of religion, there's, there's a lot

08:33of research on how our intuitive cognition frames our experience of the world around

08:40us and our understanding of ourselves.

08:42Could you talk a little bit about what kind of experiences kind of let you know there's

08:48something intuitive going on here.

08:50There's something internal to this experience that, that contributed to this transition.

08:55Yeah, I mean, gosh, where does one begin?

09:01I do think like within this world, you have to hold so much cognitive dissonance.

09:08And so when you start to question one thing, it just kind of opens up like you're just

09:15more vulnerable to questioning so many things all at once, which is why you're taught, you

09:21know, from childhood, especially people who are born into, you know, a fundamentalist religion.

09:27You're taught from an early age to not ask questions and that, you know, questions are

09:32almost dangerous.

09:33They, they're the start to the slippery slope.

09:34And if you ask too many questions and one day you're going to wake up, you're going

09:37to be an atheist and you're going to burn in hell forever, like hellfire and where you

09:41spend eternity is a big component to the belief system.

09:46Right.

09:47And so, but there were like little things along the way, like one thing that Christian nationalism

09:52relies on is American exceptionalism, because we were taught that God supernaturally blessed

10:01America, that God gave the land to George Washington, you know, he's like a disciple,

10:06disciple 2.0 and that, you know, we were miraculously given victory in all of our wars, that, you

10:16know, even, even what happened with the indigenous people was really a blessing for them because

10:21we were able to convert them and save their souls.

10:23Like you kind of, you're not really taught the true history, like I was taught Christopher

10:27Columbus was a good Christian missionary.

10:31And so there's this cock, like you, you were kind of shielded, especially if you are homeschooled

10:36a given Christian curriculum, a more conservative curriculum.

10:40You're shielded from a truer history of America, because if you believe that God is good and

10:48that God basically gave America and founded America as a Christian nation, then you can't

10:54look at America as ever being the bad guy.

10:58And so once you're able, because if America was ever bad, then you have to question in

11:02God's sovereignty and if God is good or not, because the two are so interconnected, because

11:06you believe America is a Christian nation, we have to save America because God will only

11:11bless us if we continue to be Christian.

11:14And then that's why you see these culture wars of people fighting gay marriage or abortion

11:19or things that we deemed sin and that because like Hurricane Katrina, it's like, well, God

11:26allowed that to happen because we've let sin into our country and the way to stop that.

11:31It's not climate change.

11:33It's God judging us because we are no longer righteous, because we've kind of, we're starting

11:39to lose our Christian nation, so but once you've once you learn the true history, like

11:45well, we committed genocide against indigenous people and that Christians were using the

11:50Bible to justify slavery in the Civil War and that they used it to justify segregation

11:55and Jim Crow and and, you know, all of these things that point that show Christians in

12:01a bad light, then suddenly you lose a good chunk of your foundation of your belief system.

12:08And so learning, you know, like true history, like those, those things kind of started shining

12:14light like I remember during post 9/11, when we were dropping bombs on Iraq, looking for,

12:23you know, weapons of mass destruction, I remember feeling conflicted about that.

12:29But you know, the Christians around me were like, no, this is like a righteous, holy war.

12:34You know, they, the Muslims deserve it because their, their religion is demonic and all these

12:39things were Christians, we're, we're, we're of God, we're of the one true God.

12:44But I remember like, but we're bombing innocent people and I was able to kind of squash those

12:53thoughts for a while and just and feel like I had to defend America because if I didn't,

12:59and I'm going through an existential crisis that I was not prepared to go, go through,

13:04but you know, it was like little things like that along the way that just intuitively I

13:09kind of thought about introspectively, but I had enough people around me and watching

13:16Fox News and listening to conservative radio and hearing a pastor every Sunday tell me

13:21the opposite that it kept, it keeps people in the belief system because Christian nationalism

13:27evangelicalism, like they're especially like the seven mountain mandate, which is a dominion

13:32theology, which, which basically is the belief that Christians have to be in control and

13:38have dominion of the seven main influences in the world before Jesus can come back.

13:42And so that's why they basically, they want to have major influence in media.

13:47They want to have influence and entertainment.

13:49They want people inside their ideology to not have to go to anyone secular.

13:54They can get everything from this Christian conservative perspective.

13:58So you really are built in a giant echo chamber unless you intentionally seek out other things.

14:06But if you do that and you're still in it, you have all these people being like, you

14:09can't trust that source any because anything not Christian is satanic.

14:13And so, you know, I think there's like a new rise in satanic panic to where anything not

14:18Jesus II is of the devil and they're trying to, the devil's coming after your children.

14:23Like there's that one pastor, Kent Christmas from the pulpit cursed the Barbie movie because

14:29of wokeness or whatever.

14:31And then another pastor said that the Barbie movie would unleash millions of demons onto

14:36your children.

14:37And like, so it's like, it's just silly stuff like that, but there's people that genuinely

14:41believe that.

14:42And so all this fear mongering gives people a reason to doubt their own doubts.

14:48Well, and and it also, I think it primes people, you know, when when you are trained from birth,

14:55as you were to to believe in all of these demons, to believe that, you know, everyone

15:01that isn't with us is satanic is awful is bad.

15:07It you know, there's a whole section in your book about conspiracy theories, QAnon, all

15:13of that stuff, like people have been primed to believe outrageous things.

15:21So then, so then when they hear, you know, that that, you know, Hillary Clinton has, you

15:26know, a bunch of children locked up in a pizza parlor, they buy it.

15:31It's that feels, it feels acceptably real to them.

15:35Yeah.

15:36I mean, the Rapture theology is a huge belief in a lot of mainstream evangelicalism that

15:42doesn't get talked about too much.

15:44Like you don't hear about it unless you're inside as much, but that, I believe that until

15:49I was like 30, like as a grown woman, I believe that at any moment, I'd hear a distant trumpet

15:55and that I'd get sucked up into the sky naked to meet Jesus in the air because that's like

16:00left behind canon, like the left pile of clothes behind, which is weird because we're also

16:04purity culture.

16:05So I guess like once you're floating in the sky, like the last thing isn't a problem anymore.

16:11But maybe, maybe magical, like fig leaves will appear for you.

16:17Maybe.

16:18Yeah.

16:19I don't know.

16:20But yeah, but like if you can believe that, which wasn't a mainstream belief in Christianity

16:23until the 1800s, and I was pissed when I learned that because I was taught like that this

16:28is basically like apostle Paul Cannon, you know, like, yeah, yeah, so but yeah, but if

16:34you can believe that, then it's not hard to believe that there's this evil secret society

16:41that's controlling everything that sacrifices babies to Satan and drinks children's blood

16:46to stay young like that's you already believe in the big bad Satan.

16:51So it's yeah, it's an easy jump to make and and all the heathens believe that that the

16:58world was created out of nothing through magic anyway or some or through the big bang, which

17:03right?

17:04It takes more faith to be an atheist.

17:06Yeah, yeah, and these are these are things that you're conditioned as a child to accept.

17:12And if that is the foundation of your worldview, if those are the logs that build the foundation

17:19of your worldview, then it's not difficult to interpret new information in light of that.

17:25That becomes the interpretive lens that lenses through which you see all this new stuff.

17:30And naturally, you're going to want to interpret it according to your worldview.

17:35Take it fit, find a place for it to fit until suddenly it won't fit.

17:46And you you shared a story in your book that I that I rather enjoyed about working.

17:52I don't know if you were with CBN or you were you were doing journalism of some kind newer

17:57sent out to do an interview with a gay couple, I was interning at the Dallas NBC, OK, I used

18:06to live just north of Frankfort and the tollway and and that's where I that's where I actually

18:12became LDS and and I left to go live in your way for a couple years doing a proselytizing

18:17mission down there.

18:19Our church was right across the street from Preston Wood Baptist Church, but so I know

18:27the area well it was it was fun to hear some of those names again, but can can you walk

18:32through this story briefly about this this time something didn't seem to fit the way

18:37you had been conditioned to structure your worldview.

18:40Yeah, so I got my masters in journalism at Regent University, which is Pat Robertson's

18:44school.

18:46It's on the same campus as CBN, which is the Christian Broadcasting Network.

18:49So for my summer internship as part of that program, I got an internship at the NBC DFW

18:55affiliate and my first day on the job and you have to understand to at Regent, they kind

19:01of trained us to like their motto is Christian leadership to change the world.

19:08So there there was this, you know, underlying message that no matter what job you have,

19:13even if it's it's in the secular world, like you're still called to be a Christian first

19:18and that your job is like wherever you are, that's your mission field.

19:21So you're kind of.

19:22That is so intense.

19:23Yeah, no, yeah, I mean, and that was nothing new.

19:26I had already been believed that from a child, like that there's no greater calling than

19:31trying to win souls for Jesus and that you should do that wherever you are.

19:37So keep that in mind, like that's my, that's my mindset.

19:41My very first day at this internship, they assigned me to do an interview of this gay

19:48couple because they were, they were in, they were getting some, some pushback for being

19:54featured in a JCPenney catalog as for father's day because they were two gay dads together

20:00with their kids.

20:01And I remember like the internal just conflict of, okay, this is my moment.

20:10I know that the media like portrays homosexuality as good or normal, you know, because at this

20:16point, I believed that homosexuality was a, was a sin, it was an abomination.

20:20It was a choice either by demonic influence or they were demon possessed.

20:25And that's not an exaggeration.

20:27Like that is what I was taught.

20:29And so I was like, this is my chance.

20:32I had like my official questions that, you know, my bosses saw.

20:37And then I had like questions prepared to as kind of like, gotchas, I guess, like if,

20:43like if I had the boldness, I'm like, well, isn't it better for a child to have a mom

20:47and a dad, you know, stupid stuff like that.

20:52But when I got there, which my heart was pounding, I felt like I was going into the lion's den

20:57like behind enemy lines, like here I am a Christian, going to talk to gay people like

21:02married gay people, which this was before it was even legalized.

21:06So it was like extra, you know, evil, tragic, I guess.

21:14And so I walk in and they have pictures of them and their family on the wall that they

21:18had adopted and they're smiling and their kids look happy and healthy and thriving.

21:24And I introduce myself and they were so kind to me.

21:31And I didn't know how to take that and I was like, well, they must just think that I got

21:36them on their side, like, you know, so I literally like, I remember thinking I need to sneak

21:41in something Christian and just see how they respond.

21:44So I remember being like, oh, yeah, well, when I went to church, and then one of them

21:48was like, oh, yeah, I used to go to like methods, some Methodist church or something.

21:53I think they actually went to a Methodist school and I was like, like inside, just freaking

21:58out.

21:59So I did not know how to process this information.

22:00Like, wait a minute, you're gay, but you've been to church and me saying Jesus, you're

22:05not manifesting any demons and I don't know how to how to deal with this.

22:11So I finished the interview, I had this like gut instinct, like my like my brain was telling

22:18me you better, like, this is your chance to show what they're really like.

22:21You need to ask them these questions, like be a good Christian, like, da, da, but my heart

22:26was saying like, these are two really kind, good people.

22:32And I like, I could not, I didn't feel like I needed to do that, that I should do that.

22:36I felt like it had been wrong.

22:37The demons got you.

22:38I know.

22:39I know.

22:40So I didn't say anything like at the end, I was like, well, God bless you guys.

22:44And they were so nice.

22:45Like I was just an intern and they were like, you did such a good job.

22:47Like best of luck in your career.

22:49And I was like, thank you.

22:51And I just remember walking away from that really confused, but I just, I still was not

22:57ready to go down that path of questioning like, why were these guys so nice to me, knowing

23:03I was this Christian person.

23:07And you know, I just kind of shoved it down and be like, well, Satan can appear as an

23:10angel of light.

23:11And that's, that was how I was able to, you know, not have to think about that for a while.

23:15But that, that interaction stuck with me for a long time.

23:19Yeah, I think that's a lot of folks who, who build up that kind of worldview, they have

23:25a lot of defensive walls that they put up and something that a lot of research has suggested

23:30is that they don't let down their defenses unless there are significant personal experiences

23:39or close personal relationships that kind of compel them to let that down their defenses

23:45and begin to think critically about these things.

23:48But at the same time, when you begin to think critically about these things, they often represent

23:52a significant threat to one's own worldview, which means the defenses go right back up

23:58and they tend to get stuck on a shelf somewhere where you're like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna worry

24:04about that later.

24:05I'm just gonna stick that on the shelf there and we're gonna, we're gonna go back to this

24:10worldview that we're comfortable in and we don't want to compromise.

24:13And I felt so much guilt afterwards that like I wasn't a good Christian that I had failed

24:19God and like literally like had to ask God for forgiveness because I felt guilty even

24:24though I felt like like in my heart is like, I did the right thing, but my brain is like,

24:29no, you didn't.

24:30You, you dirty scum.

24:31Yeah.

24:32Oh, that is so good.

24:34You should have terrorized that, that loving couple who's, that's what a, what an odd way

24:41for your brain to kind of be mean to, to you, because you're taught like tough love, like

24:47love the center, hate the sin, like the best way to love them is to tell them that they're

24:51going to hell and be truthful because you can save their soul.

24:54Like, I mean, you see that's not very loving actually, but you were definitely going back

25:00to how you were taught.

25:01I wanted you to tell us the story in the book about you as a kid, you and your siblings

25:09being trained to witness to like servers at restaurants. Oh, the cringe is hard core on

25:19that. Talk, talk to us a little bit about like what that looked like and maybe, maybe

25:24give us a story or two from the, from that era of your life.

25:28Yeah.

25:29And I imagine you went to restaurants a lot if you were traveling around so much.

25:33We did.

25:34We did.

25:35And my brothers and I would argue about whose turn it was to witness, which witness was

25:41our word for proselytizing, but to witness to the wait staff.

25:45And usually that just meant, you know, we would just say, Jesus loves you.

25:50If it was really successful, then my dad would get to pray with them and like leave them

25:53in the center's prayer.

25:55And then my dad could talk about it in a sermon later and then we would feel very proud of

25:58ourselves.

25:59We got like a shout out in the sermon.

26:02So yeah, it just became a thing. And then at some point, we started keeping tallies of

26:07like, well, I, you know, I saved so many people.

26:10I have more than you. And it was, it was a very, it was like sibling rivalry, rivalry,

26:15but religious trauma, but yeah, I remember a one time and my dad told this story because

26:23he thought it was hilarious, but my, I was probably six or seven and my brother was five.

26:28So my two brothers every year and a half younger than me.

26:30So they were around five and went to a restaurant and it was my brother Matt's turn to witness

26:36to the wait staff.

26:37Like we knew the order. Like, so we knew, we knew like, okay, it's Matt's turn. I'll be

26:41quiet. And the waitress came over and Matt was just like, Hey, Jesus loves you. And she

26:49was like, great. And then he just goes, take my hand because we would, whenever we would

26:53pray to someone, we would say my dad would be like, take my hand and then lead them in

26:56the center's prayer.

26:57And he was like, went straight for closing the deal, which is when they could say the

27:01center's prayer. And he's like, take my hand. So she did, because I mean, who's gonna say

27:06no to like a five year old kid with a bowl cut? And he was like, all right, now repeat

27:11after me, just say, dear Jesus, she goes, dear Jesus, I am a very bad person. And she

27:19repeated it. She goes, she kind of looked and I looked at my parents and they kind of looked

27:24at anyway, she goes, I'm a very bad person. And it's like, forgive me of my sins. It was

27:28forgive me of my sins. Amen. And then my parents kind of gave her like, an apologetic, you

27:33know, look, and we were not convinced of the efficiency of that conversion. But my dad told

27:39it in stories are where we went. So is that is one of okay, as the, as the person on the

27:45show right now who has not had the experience of, of trying to make strangers believe in

27:52my beliefs. I'm did, when you guys did that, and you know, you say, you know, one of the

27:59kids would say, Jesus loves you. And if it went well, dad would pray with them. Did you

28:04guys feel like that was that you would actually converted someone to Christianity in that moment?

28:10Is that is that the story that you told each other? Yeah, I mean, we believed that once

28:16you said the center's prayer and you confess Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and ask

28:20for forgiveness of sins that you were a Christian. Um, which I do think like that inherent theology

28:28is, is a reason why you see so many terrible people in evangelicalism, because they don't

28:34really hold people accountable. As long as you say the prayer and ask for forgiveness, it's

28:38like, well, God forgave them. So we should forgive them too. Right. But yeah, we believe

28:42it's just like an instant, an instant thing. It's, it's, it's, it's this one weird trick

28:48to turn everybody's question. Until it comes to questions of orthodoxy where you can evidently

28:57lose your, your salvation, but at the same time, can't lose your, your salvation. Yeah.

29:02And there's a, this strikes me as a, as a pretty, um, interesting case of, uh, of what

29:09within the cognitive sciences, we call costly signaling because it's, uh, it's a behavior

29:15that you would engage in in order to display to others within the end group that you are

29:22willing to incur the costs associated with, um, towing the party line with showing that

29:29you are faithful to the group standards. And I think the costly signaling can sit so close

29:34to the surface in a lot of groups like evangelicalism in, uh, the Latter-day Saint tradition the

29:40same is true. Although, um, the proselytizing thing, it's usually limited to just the one

29:45of these 18 month or two year missions where we would have to go out and keep track of

29:50how many, uh, discussions we called them we had with folks and how many times we would

29:56lead them in prayer or, um, take them through these, uh, the steps of conversion. And then

30:03you have groups like Jehovah's Witnesses where that's, that's a full time responsibility.

30:08You're supposed to keep track of, of those kinds of things, uh, for every week of their,

30:13their life. It's such an interesting example. I think of, of how close to the surface that

30:19kind of boundary maintenance and those kinds of expectations sit, uh, the more religious

30:25you get where it's something you got to do in front of your parents on a, on a daily basis.

30:29Uh, well, and for us, it was, that was certainly, I'm sure part of it, but I, we were also taught

30:36and I believed that if I didn't witness to whoever I came in contact with and that person

30:42were to die that day or die shortly after, um, that their blood would be on my hands

30:48because I didn't save their soul or I, or I didn't at least plant a seed. Like as long

30:52as you could say, geez, loves you or plant some sort of seed, you could wipe your hands

30:56of it and be clear, but, but if not, like it, yeah, it was, it was a very, um, like I had

31:03a good childhood. Like my parents were, were really great parents, but the ideology, which

31:09wasn't really my parents fault because they were indoctrinated to it was, you know, it's

31:13just a vicious cycle, but it was a really, uh, not fun in the mind to constantly, you

31:20know, especially once I got to a certain age, like middle school or high school and I started

31:24realizing that proselytizing isn't cool. Um, you know, and so I, I started witnessing

31:30less. Um, and then I would feel so guilty every time I didn't witness and I would just

31:36pray like, Oh, I hope that person doesn't die today. And then they go to hell and it's

31:40my fault. It's such, it's such a, uh, it's such a mind-bending thing. And it, it, like

31:48it's, it, there's a cruelty to it to, to say that, you know, to put that much pressure

31:54on anyone, let alone a child. It just feels, I, I, the cognitive dissonance of like Jesus

32:03is love, but these people might all have eternal consequences and it would be my fault. And

32:11like that just feels so separate, so, so opposite of from each other. Well, and that's part

32:17of the cognitive dissonance that you can believe that God loves us unconditionally. And then

32:22also believe God will send you to hell for eternity if you don't believe the right things.

32:26And our, and in this world, in like a Christian nationalist ideology, white evangelicalism,

32:32fundamentalist, whatever you want to call it, um, it's conditioned on having the right beliefs.

32:38They honestly could care less what you actually do as long as your beliefs line up, which

32:44I think is one reason why they can dismiss so many of like Donald Trump's sins because

32:51he's giving them power and lining up with their beliefs, at least verbally. Um, and it's the

32:56same thing with, um, like, like, just look at what they're doing with Russell Brand right

33:02now. I don't know if you've seen like he has publicly converted to Christianity, right?

33:07While in an active, you know, ongoing assault, like allegations against him, but like he

33:13went on Tucker Carlson and the, the in group of like right wing Christianity has welcomed

33:18him in despite his bad behaviors because he is now aligned theologically and ideologically

33:26with them. Whereas someone like me who, or y'all probably too, who are just progressive

33:32and like ideologically, we line up differently in beliefs, but we're squeaky clean. Like I've

33:37never assaulted anybody. I don't have any allegations against me. I still love Jesus.

33:42Like I still identify a Christian just progressive, but in their minds, I'm a heretic. I'm a false

33:47prophet. I'm, you know, being, I'm under demonic influence and I cannot be welcomed into those

33:52circles and it's solely based on belief. Yeah. And that's, um, that's something we see all

33:59over Christianity, at least public Christianity today is it's all about structuring power and

34:04values and boundaries. It's not necessarily about following Jesus. It's not, it's not

34:09following the lamb slaughtered. It is trying to promote rather the, the conquering riding

34:18in on a white horse with a sword drenched in blood Jesus storm the capital Jesus rather

34:25than love your neighbor Jesus. Though I noticed toward the end of your, there was a story

34:30you also told toward the end of the book that's that reminded me of something that happened

34:35in my own life. Um, and contributed to you saying you're, you're still trying to work

34:40through, uh, your relationship with your father, your father's legacy, but you said you came

34:46to him one time when you were a child and said, I get it now boys preach and girls sing,

34:52which is why you preach and mommy and I sing. And, and in a shocking turn of events, your

35:00father did not say that girl. Um, what did, uh, what did your, your father say? Yeah,

35:08I was probably, uh, yeah, I was young, maybe four or five. Um, and he got down on his knee,

35:15like I level with me and looked me in the eye and he was like, no, April, that's not right.

35:20Girls can preach. And he said, if you want to be a preacher, you be a preacher and don't

35:24let any man tell you, you can't do something just because you're a girl. And that, that

35:29was a very, um, like it was a very interesting world to live in because I felt very empowered

35:37in my immediate, from my immediate family and my dad always like, you can do whatever

35:41you want. Like you can, you can be president. You can do it. Like he was very much a feminist

35:46when it came to me. Um, and he believed in female pastors, but at the same time the church

35:53at large, like I never saw a female pastor, you know, except for maybe Joyce Meyer on TV.

35:59Um, but it, so I was getting one message at home in a different message from the church

36:06at large, but I, I do really believe that another thing that my dad like always taught

36:10me was to always stand up for what you believe is right. Even, you know, consequence, whatever

36:15consequences may come. And to my dad's credit, like even though he perpetuated some harmful

36:22ideologies and then passed that down to me, he was a true believer and, and like really

36:27believed what he was doing and believed that he was doing the right thing. And he always

36:32stood up for what he believed was right. I mean, he even went against the church sometimes

36:36and lost meetings, lost some different things because people didn't like what he was saying.

36:42Um, and so like I, without having that, uh, just empowerment from my dad, like I don't

36:49know if I would have had the courage to once I realized things were wrong to speak out against

36:54it. Um, and that was one reason like I dedicated my book to my dad too, because I'm like, I

36:58think, you know, he's passed now. So he hasn't gone through the last like 13 years, 12 or

37:0413 years of life experience with us. That, that included a lot of huge things like one

37:08of my brothers came out as gay. Um, you know, so I just, I, I still think, I think he'd be

37:16proud of me, but it is, it's been a difficult journey just reconciling, you know, his legacy,

37:23because when he died, we were on the same page. So I, I've never been in a relationship

37:28with my dad, um, where we disagreed. And I, you know, I know like him in 2011 when he

37:34passed would disagree with me now. Um, you know, but I also know he was, he was, he was

37:40a good person. Like he meant well, which, you know, doesn't negate harm, but, you know,

37:46if anything, it just keeps me grounded to know that even the far right people who are causing

37:51so much harm, and I'm not talking about the people at the top, but just like your average

37:55everyday church goer who also believes that they're just doing the right thing because

37:59everyone around them is telling them that this is, you know, biblical values and we've

38:03got to fight for God and all these things. Like I can, I can hold some grace for them

38:08because I know where I came from. And I, you know, if anything, it just gives me like hope.

38:12Well, they can change too. I changed. They can change and just to try to hold them in

38:17just more nuance than just, you know, pure evil because I think most, no, no one's really

38:21pure evil. We all have nuance.

38:28So I think, uh, one of the things that's going to be, uh, tricky about this conversation

38:33because we do have to get to Christian nationalism, uh, as a, as a concept because that's a big

38:38part of, of the story of your book. Um, one of the things that people often get very uncomfortable

38:45about is when shows that are dedicated to religion or this, you know, the religious ideas

38:52delve into the political, but I mean, you mentioned it earlier. You, you said there was

38:57no, there was no line to blur. Like it was literally it was, if you're a good Christian,

39:05you are a Republican and narrow the twain, you know, there's nothing. There's no, there's

39:10no, uh, median point where that separates those in the worldview that you grew up with.

39:17So talk a little bit about, uh, what led you to question all of that and what led you

39:25on that journey to start disagreeing with, uh, the theology that you were that you were

39:31raised with. Sure. Um, also a big, big question. Um, uh, I don't know how well you can, you

39:41know, there's two detailed people can buy the book. They can read it. It's fine.

39:45Here's a good segue though. You talked about your, your dad passing in 2011, not knowing,

39:51um, how he would respond maybe to, to seeing things now, but your mom was still there and

39:57your mom changed somewhat and you have a story about your mom being confronted with problems

40:04with the church as a result of the financial, uh, arrangement that had been set up following,

40:09uh, your father's, well, during it before your father passed and then after he passed,

40:14that might, that might be a good stepping stone into discussing how entrenched some of these,

40:21uh, Christian nationalism is within these worldviews. Yeah. So, um, before my dad had

40:26passed, um, there was a contract where a larger church that had multiple campuses, basically

40:33kind of bought the church building in the church from my parents and as like part of

40:38the deal, um, my dad would receive, you know, as, as like a pastor, a meritist, a certain

40:44amount of money for the rest of his life. And then if he were to die, that would be passed

40:47to my mom until she died. Um, so that contract was in place and my dad died, um, which honestly,

40:55my dad dying was also a huge part in my changing my beliefs because when you're in this world,

41:00your theology is so intertwined with your politics that when you start question one, which for

41:05me was like name an inclement faith healing because we were Pentecostal that you, you

41:09just kind of simultaneously start questioning the other because they're, they're very conflated.

41:15Um, but so, so this pastor, uh, started paying my mom as usual and it was fine for several

41:21years and then Donald Trump gets elected president and I, and I'll say too, Donald Trump coming

41:27on the scene was a big wake up call for me as well because even though I was still very

41:31Republican at the time when he started running in the primary, I was like, there's no way,

41:37there's no way we're going to elect this guy. He's, he's so immoral, like, obviously immoral

41:42like, and, um, because I remember what they said about Bill Clinton, you know, if he would

41:46lie to his wife, what, what he'd do so much worse to the American people.

41:50He'll, he'll cheat on the American people. Yeah. If he cheats on his wife, he'll cheat

41:53on the American people, which is the GOP was convinced of. Yeah. Yeah. And so I'm like,

41:59okay, well, clearly we don't believe that anymore. Um, you know, and not just, they're

42:04like, well, you know, we're voting for a president, not a pastor. I'm like, you've never said

42:08that before. Yeah. Um, so anyway, so, so that was, that was a wake up call. I don't need

42:14to go into that. We all know that story. Um, but in the process of Trump's presidency,

42:19uh, my mom, uh, she, I mean, her and I are very close and, you know, my, you know, my

42:25brother came out and she went on a journey to becoming queer, accepting, you know, on

42:30behalf of her son, uh, just like, you know, I did for my brother. And, you know, so she

42:35started kind of questioning things and she didn't understand the evangelical support

42:39of Trump either. Like she technically voted for him in 2016, but she kind of held her

42:43nose because, you know, she was still like, well, I'm a Christian. I got a vote Republican,

42:46which dies hard. That is hard to kill. Um, but so over those next few years, the pastor

42:53that was over the church that was paying my mom, um, just started sending her like very

43:00conspiracies, conspiracy type videos, like some Q and on related some, you know, about

43:08Trump being God's chosen, like the Trump's, this like hero of the faith that Christians

43:12are being persecuted. Um, you know, that, you know, when Joe Biden came on the scene and

43:18ran like that he's, I don't know if he said he was anti-Christ, but he definitely ran

43:23in circles of people that said he was the anti-Christ. Um, and so, and my mom was just

43:28like, no, but she, she was nice. So she kind of like would appease him and like text back

43:31like, Oh, interesting, you know, cause like he's financially paying her, you know, um,

43:38and at one point, like you could tell he was clearly wanting us when in her and us cause

43:45he was sent her like a three part DVD series about the end of the world that he wanted

43:50her to watch privately with her three adult children who lived in different states and

43:57then wanted her to destroy the DVDs afterwards. Um, whoa, that's, that, I know that feels

44:04a little red flaggy. I'm just going to say it. I know it was odd. Um, but yeah. So anyway,

44:10and then I said, uh, my mom actually went with me to a few Black Lives Matter protests

44:13in the summer of 2020. And I made the cardinal sin where I admitted that I was going to vote

44:20for Joe Biden, a Democrat. And so he would like text terms like, can I have your daughter's

44:25number? I would love to tell her all the things that Trump's done for the Black people and

44:30which this pastor's white, by the way, if you couldn't tell. Um, and I was like, mom,

44:35do not give him my number. I have no interest. Um, so he's like trying to get our whole family

44:39to vote for Trump for, for whatever reason, like it really mattered to him that we vote

44:43for Donald Trump. And, um, so the day of the election, uh, after, you know, we all voted,

44:50like literally the day of the election later that day, he texts my mom and asked her who

44:53she voted for. And at this point, my mom was like, I could not vote for Donald Trump,

44:58but she still couldn't vote for the Democrat. So she literally just like, I think she wrote

45:01in John Kasich or something. Um, so she writes this long, and my mom, if you meet her, she

45:07is the sweetest, kindest human on the planet. Like she would never heard a fly. So she writes

45:13this long thing. She's like, well, you know, I just, I just felt I couldn't really vote

45:16for either candidate. So I wrote in someone, but I did vote for some local conservatives

45:20and blah, blah, blah. You know, I just felt like I have to, I really prayed about it.

45:23But like she, she's being sweet. So then immediately he texts back and he was like, well, you call

45:28me, we need to discuss your financial support. And we had kind of seen the writing on the wall.

45:35Like I, there had been some signs that they, he might be leaning that way. And so she had

45:42talked to her lawyer and the lawyers like, Hey, if you're, if every discussion or contract,

45:45get it in writing, like don't talk on the phone. Um, and so she asked him, like, what

45:50can you just email it to me about the law? And he was like, well, since you won't talk

45:53to me on the phone, like I think it's best that we, uh, end your financial support. And

45:59my mom was like over who I voted. And so like technically he never specified that that

46:04was the reason, but it literally like context wise, you can, um, so yeah. Anyway, so my

46:10mom was a widow, which is like one of the classic classes that Jesus is like, take care

46:17of the poor, the orphan, the widow. And here is a pastor who literally was like, nah, I'm

46:22not going to take care of this widow anymore because she did her vote for Donald Trump,

46:26allegedly. That's crazy. That is, yeah. And infuriating too. It's just, you know, it so

46:34often we see with, uh, and you know, your book is riddled with stories of this, people

46:41who say, say they believe one thing, but I mean, they, they believe that, like Dan said,

46:47the, the Jesus of, uh, storming the Capitol and not the Jesus of the Beatitudes or whatever.

46:53Yeah. Well, when, when the, the foundation is, is structuring power and this is a unique

47:00opportunity to, um, have an awful lot of proximity to the most power on the planet. Uh, you know,

47:07they've got a, they got to prioritize. And so yeah, the, um, taking care of the poor

47:14and the orphan and the widow, uh, is fades to the background when, uh, we need somebody

47:20who's going to, uh, get rid of Roe v. Wade and identity marker entirely generated in

47:27the 1970s precisely for the sake of, uh, irrigating political power and in the 70s because they

47:37wanted to go back to being able to, uh, keep black students out of, uh, out of universities

47:42like Bob Jones, university and other universities like that. So yeah, there's, there's such

47:46a bizarre conflation of political power and, and religious ideologies there. Uh, one very

47:54clearly has priority over the other these days. And it was very eye opening for me. Um, in

47:592016, cause I, I voted third party in 2016 cause I still, I, I also had not yet felt

48:04I could vote for a demon rat as we like to call it. Um, but that just the amount of hate

48:11that I received from people I knew from church because I wouldn't vote for Trump, um, was

48:17very eye opening for me because suddenly just because I disagreed on this one thing, which

48:21was not even a theological issue. It was just, I don't think I, like my own morals and integrity

48:28won't let me vote for a man like that. Yeah. And they were like, no, you're just, you're

48:32thwarting the will of God. Like someone literally said that to me, someone said that I was

48:36disappointing my late father and that God would judge me. And I'm like, like honestly,

48:43for the first Trump presidency, I felt like I was just being gaslit every day cause I,

48:47we were still going to a white evangelical church. And I like felt, you know, I, I, the

48:52Christianese dies hard, but I really felt in my spirit. I'm like, I, this is, this is

48:56wrong. Like we should not be celebrating this man and championing this man as some hero

49:00of the faith. Um, but anytime I would say something about it, I was the one that was

49:06demonized. I was ousted so quickly. Like my lifelong achievements in the evangelical world.

49:13Like I was a producer for CBN. I wrote my own Christian nationalist song and sang it on

49:17the Jim Baker show. Like I had dedicated my entire life to making America a Christian

49:23nation and to spreading the gospel. And it was immediately, completely discounted when

49:29I didn't vote for Donald Trump. And that was really eye opening for me just to realize

49:33how much of my world, my version of Christianity had become about groupthink and not about actually

49:40following the teachings of Jesus. Yeah. When you, when you started to see those cracks

49:47forming, uh, in, in what you thought you had, what you thought you were a part of versus

49:54what it turned out, you were a part of what we'll talk a little bit about that process

50:00of like noticing those things and, and how it felt as you were, as you were sort of coming

50:07to some, some new realizations about it. I was pissed. Like I, I definitely went through

50:12an anger stage, um, because I mean, I, we didn't stop going weekly to church until the

50:18pandemic because it forced us to, right. So we, through all this, I'm still going to church

50:23every Sunday. I'm still part of the worship team. And I found myself being like leaving

50:29church angry every Sunday because I saw these people around me, worshiping Jesus, crying

50:37out, acting like so, you know, morally superior in church because we're worshiping Jesus and

50:44blah, blah, the same Jesus that I was worshiping. But then throughout the week, I would see

50:48them post the most hateful racist crap about, you know, Black Lives Matter, about, um, Joe,

50:59Joe Biden about trans people or queer people, like just immigrants. Like Jesus literally

51:06said, welcome the foreigner. And I'm like, what, what are we doing here? Like it was just,

51:10it was such a, I was just so mad because I felt like I was actually trying to follow

51:16Jesus. And I felt, I really felt like what I was doing was, was led by the sacred in,

51:23in kind of starting to question these things because they seem, they were apparent, they

51:27were appearing to be harmful finally. Um, but instead of any self reflection, I was

51:32the one that was in the wrong. Um, and so I honestly, I felt like I was going crazy.

51:38I was mad and I felt like I was going crazy. And there were days, there were moments where

51:42I was like, am I the crazy one? Like, am I the one in the wrong? Cause I had so many people

51:45telling me like, God doesn't want you to do this. God doesn't want you to speak out against

51:49Donald Trump. That's his man. He chose him blah, blah, blah. Um, and I remember praying

51:54in 2020 because I was just like so confused. I remember praying and ask God is like, God,

52:00I don't get it. I really don't believe that God, that Donald Trump's your man. Um, but

52:06if you want me to vote for him, like you have to send me a sign and I'll do it. If you really

52:11want me to vote for that man and I believe this is you saying this, I'll vote for Donald

52:16Trump. That sign never came. You know, so I never did, but like it, like I was being

52:21gassed lit so much that I felt compelled to pray that, that prayer. And then I got pissed.

52:28Like when I take a step back, I'm like, no, y'all are demonizing me and celebrating someone

52:33who is a serial adulterer who says the worst, like the most hateful things about women and

52:40people of color and immigrants and Muslims. And you're celebrating this man as someone

52:46that Jesus would, would choose to lead our Christian nation. I'm like, are you reading

52:53the gospels at all? Um, and honestly though, the gospels were a through line for me. Like

52:59anytime I felt like I was a crazy one, I would just go back and read the teachings of Jesus.

53:03I'm like, no, here he is saying lay down your weapons and they're like guns. We need more.

53:08I'm like, no, you don't. Um, you know, so it was, it was a lot of conflicting emotions

53:13until I finally really COVID hitting and the way the white church especially turned that

53:20into some sort of Christian persecution narrative like, look, Joe Biden and Trump, like it's

53:25the government, they want to shut down our right to worship. I'm like, no, it's a fricking

53:29global pandemic and people are dying and like they couldn't even wear a mask or social distance.

53:35And they made it about their rights. And I was like, no, this is, I feel so like that

53:41emboldened me to be like, nah, I, I'm right. I'm in the right here. Y'all is the one in

53:46the wrong, you're not going to lie. You had me in the first half. I see through it now.

53:53Yeah, I think you close with a very lovely line about how, um, John three, 16 doesn't

53:58say for Jesus, so loved America, as for Jesus, so loved the world, but they want to throw

54:03up these boundaries. They want to continually ask, well, who is my neighbor? Not him, not

54:08her. Right. Not those, those people over there. It, it violates the, the weightier matters

54:14of the law that Jesus talked about. It's, it's such a hypocritical attempt to appropriate

54:20the moral authority of Jesus while directly denying pretty much all of the moral frameworks

54:26for which he advocated, which, and it, and it's so, it's such a tragedy that so many folks

54:32have been conditioned since their childhood to accept that worldview that, that they can't

54:38see past it. And they cannot accept questioning it because they know that that ostracization

54:45is, is the next thing that's going to happen. Well, and you can lose everything. Like you

54:50lose your community, especially if you work in ministry and your livelihood is dependent

54:55on you keeping the same beliefs for your entire life. You have built in additional reason

55:00to just never question things. Yeah. Yeah. Although if there's one thing we can learn

55:06from your story, it's that it's that there is hope on the other side of the thing, including

55:14hope for a very popular tick tock account. So, you know, maybe, maybe that's a good trade

55:21off. You never know. You might lose your whole community, but you'll, but your tick talks

55:26will do well. Oh my gosh. It's funny though. You say that because I'll, I get accused

55:31of only changing for internet clout, like, yeah, and they'll be like, you are never a

55:37Christian. Like, yeah, well, and that's how they, that's how they protect their own worldview

55:42right because they believe that a Christian wouldn't do that. And so you must have been

55:46a pretend Christian all along. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's funny too. Cause I said those

55:51same things about people I knew that left. I'm like, oh, well, they just never really

55:54believed, you know, Satan got another one. So it's just weird. He's seeing my own playbook

56:00used against me. Yeah. How dare you? Well, and, and surely going back and having to reevaluate

56:07all of those times you said that about other people and being like, Oh, wait, no, that person

56:12probably had a genuine, like moment of reflection and, and, or many moments of reflection. Yeah.

56:19And now we, we wait and see until January 10th, the Supreme Court will hear oral arguments.

56:27They have opted to hear the arguments and, and we will see if Trump comes to the rescue.

56:33I know. I mean, he's our savior as, yeah. Like he's like a warm stuff spot for TikTok,

56:39which to be fair, TikTok did push right wing content more than left wing content. So it

56:44probably did help him win the election. Yeah. But man, you know what? If Trump can save

56:50TikTok, yeah, I won't be mad about it. If, if, if he's consistent about anything, it's

56:56about doing favors for people who help him out, right? And then immediately abandoning

57:01them afterwards. Yeah. So we'll see. Yeah. All right. Well, April, a joy. How do people

57:10find you? They on all of the social medias, you are out there. Your handle is just April

57:16a joy. Is that right? Mm hmm. Yeah, I'm pretty much everywhere. TikTok, Instagram, threads,

57:22omnipresence. Yes. I am still on Twitter. I'm, I don't know how long I'll be on Twitter.

57:28I've got death threats on there before. So it's not my favorite place. Yeah. I had to

57:33delete my account. I couldn't, I couldn't live in that environment anymore. But it's,

57:37it's gotten, it's gotten rough over there. But yeah, go, go follow April everybody. Check

57:42out the book Star Spangled Jesus available now, wherever you get pieces of paper with

57:49words on them. There's also an audio book that I narrate to. Oh, you narrated the audio

57:54book. Awesome. That's very cool. That's great. I'm looking forward to recording the audio

57:59book for, for my own book too. So it was a fun experience. Cause it was the first time

58:05I was able to read the book without having to edit for errors. Right. So I hope you enjoy

58:13it. I'm, I'm sure I will. I'm looking forward to it. But I haven't interrupted Dan's closing

58:18spiel. That's okay. We're all right. April. Thank you so much for joining us. Anyone

58:24who wants to can become a patron of the show and hear more April, you're going to join

58:29us for the after party. Just go to over to patreon.com/dato over dogma. And, and that's

58:35where the after party is going to be happening. You'll hear a bunch of stories about the name

58:39beacher. That's going to be fun among other cool stuff. And if you need to write into us,

58:45please do so. It's a contact at data over dogma pod.com. April. Thanks so much for joining

58:52us. We really appreciate you. Thanks for having me. Bye everybody.

58:59Data over dogma is a member of the airwave media podcast network. It is a production of

59:04data over dogma media LLC. Copyright 2024. All rights reserved.