Ep 89: Spare the Rod... Please!

00:00Once you build up this this brittle foundation of it's all perfect and all true and all inspired any problem with it just just brings the whole thing crumbling down, it is a house of cards and you just kind of have to ignore that you already have taken cards out and just hope that it stays together.

00:21Hey everybody I'm Dan McClellan.

00:27And I'm Dan Beecher and you are listening to the Data Over Dogma podcast where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion and combat the spread of misinformation about the same, how are things today Dan.

00:40Things are good.

00:42It was Thanksgiving.

00:45I gave some thanks for us.

00:47It's been a minute for the listeners and viewers since Thanksgiving but you and I just had our Thanksgiving and I had a lovely time.

00:56I had a lovely time.

00:57I had a lovely time as well.

00:59We'll talk about this in our after party.

01:02But yeah well we'll hear the travails of the McClellan family in the land of the Magic Mouse.

01:09Yes.

01:10And what a land it is.

01:13It is one for sure.

01:15It's actually several lands.

01:17Of all the lands it is definitely one of them.

01:19Yeah actually you're right it is several of them.

01:21So but for those of you who aren't our patrons we're just going to have to dive into some some Bible stuff.

01:30So first we are going to do a we're going to take issue with with something in the Bible.

01:38We're within our segment taking issue.

01:41We're going to be talking a little bit about it.

01:44You know what the whole show is about punishment.

01:46We're just talking about punishment sort of as a concept.

01:49We'll we'll keep it in the family for the first part and and then go sort of a wider view of punishment.

01:57There's there's some within the family stuff that's part of the reason there's a punishment in the second one.

02:01But we'll get.

02:02Yeah.

02:03Yeah.

02:04Oh that's true.

02:05Wow.

02:06All right.

02:07Well with all of that mystery let's dive into taking issue.

02:11So we're going to take issue with something.

02:16It's it's a pretty common thing.

02:20You know it's funny because when we were talking about this you said hey there's this thing in Proverbs.

02:25Do you want to look at that?

02:27And I was like sure.

02:29And it was and you said it's about the you know the the hitting of children or whatever.

02:37And I said is that the spare the rod spoil the child thing.

02:40And you said well that's a that's not the actual biblical phrase.

02:45It does have the phrase spare the rod.

02:48The thing that freaked me out when I actually got to Proverbs what is it 13?

02:531324.

02:54Yeah.

02:55Is that it sounds worse than spare the rod spoil the child.

03:01It's like way it's like way harsher than that.

03:04Yeah.

03:05So let's talk about those who spare the rod hate their children.

03:11Yeah. And and just to kind of fill in the blanks for the people who are like what's this spare the rod spoil the child thing.

03:18That's the the idiom that everybody has heard.

03:21Which does not come from Proverbs.

03:23It's obviously inspired by Proverbs.

03:25But that actually comes from a poem that was published between 1663 and 1678.

03:32Called Huda Brass by a gentleman named Samuel Butler and it is a it is a satirical poem written in a mock heroic style.

03:44And a lot of people who quote the spare the rod spoil the child part are probably not aware of the context because it's actually one line of four lines that are talking about how to spice up a problematic sex life.

04:00Where it says what medicine else can cure the fits of lovers when they lose their wits.

04:07Love is a boy by poets styled and spare the rod and spoil the child.

04:13And and the idea here seems to be drawing from the Proverbs thing right he who spares the rod hates his child.

04:20In other words beat your kids vigorously but here the idea is if if your love life has has gotten a little lackluster.

04:28Maybe try spanking.

04:30Do you own a whip?

04:32Do you have a writing crop somewhere?

04:35Yes.

04:36On the front.

04:37Flagellation is the key.

04:38Yeah.

04:39So it's yes it's a rather interesting context for people to pull that.

04:45One of those sayings that people are like well I think I know what it means and then it's like well if you look at where it comes from you don't know what it means.

04:52Yeah. Like like the the the doofus who keeps saying Vox popular Vox day voice of the people is the voice of God which if you go look at the earliest Latin context the person who's saying it is basically saying only idiots say the voice of the people is the voice of God.

05:13Not unlike not unlike the idea of pulling one up one's oneself up by their bootstrap right right which is also you got to do that which is also an impossibility that your it's making fun of the whole concept it's not actually meant it wasn't.

05:28This happens a lot.

05:30Yes it would be ironic if we understood ironic by the sense that oh and it's more set used in ironic.

05:39Ironically non ironic.

05:41Right. Let's let us then reel ourselves back yeah two proverbs if we must.

05:47I was I was going through some of the chapters surrounding this chapter this I found this chapter intensely hard to read as well as the chapters previous because it's just these one liners.

06:00And it just hits you with them boom boom boom boom boom there's no like narrative line or structure or anything it is just nope.

06:09You know it's just aphorism after aphorism after yeah yeah eventually your brain starts to get turned into oatmeal in your eyes cross and it doesn't really work anymore so yeah especially if you have ADHD like me.

06:22Like me do like me do and you I struggled to pay attention but I yeah the chapter opens chapter 13 of proverbs opens with.

06:35It's kind of a book end actually it opens with a wise child loves discipline but a scoffer does not listen to rebuke so that's that part it feels like okay we're going to have a whole chapter about disciplining one's child.

06:51And then we don't right have a whole chapter about that and then at the very end we come back to the idea of disciplining children. Yes. And the whole verse and this is from the NRSV you read those who spare the rod hate their children.

07:10And in the Hebrew it's actually in the singular he who or the the sparrow of his rod hates or is a hater of his son is literally what it says.

07:21And those who love them are diligent to discipline them and discipline here very clearly has reference to beating them with a stick.

07:33Yes problematic. When I was looking at different people talking about these verses.

07:42There was a lot of variance on how people were interpreting them what that word rod in the original Hebrew actually meant how it was used like everyone.

07:56Everyone wants to get as far away from this verse as they possibly. Most most people do most people I guess not everybody that's true we'll get to some.

08:05Yeah but yeah there I have a chapter in my in my forthcoming book.

08:12The Bible says so out April 29 2025 pre-order now.

08:16There's a link to pre-order in the show notes you can just click the link in the show notes to pre-order the book it's so easy.

08:22We've made it so efficient so easy for you and but I in the chapter on this I was like I wonder who has who's out there going let's beat our kids because I was like somebody's got to be saying this.

08:36It did not take long it did not take long for me to find some people but of the many different people saying this I picked a tweet from John Piper who is not just famous but in famous.

08:50Even more than famous then yes he's not just famous but on Twitter a few years ago quoted Proverbs 1324 and then said spanking is not abuse it is love.

09:04And John Piper's own son is someone I follow on social media who is quite a clever dude I think he would probably disagree with his dad about what spanking your kid.

09:19Spanking your kid is but well and the thing is that like even that is a toned down version of messaging that has been around for centuries.

09:30Because spanking is one thing this is this isn't talking about spanking this is talking about getting a physical rod getting a weapon and hitting your child with it.

09:43Yes a rod of discipline or is it or is it yes this because I think this is a sign of of some maturation in our society where we have a lot of people who recognize that this is dumb.

09:58And harmful and just a pretty dirt bag thing to do and so we have a lot of people now who are trying to renegotiate their understanding of the text and are arguing that when you look at the word shevat in Hebrew in the Hebrew Bible it is frequently

10:16referred to a shepherd's staff which is used not to wail on your sheep but to gently guide and correct and so there is there's a lot of rhetoric out there particularly on social media particularly on things like tiktok and Instagram and things like that

10:32where they talk about this as actually saying not to beat your kids but to gently guide your children and correct them which is much nicer and much closer to what modern psychology would tell you is an okay way to raise your child.

10:50Yes and it is it is very well meaning and it is an effective means of trying to renegotiate what we want this text to mean but it's wrong.

11:01It is like demonstrably not the case.

11:05Okay fine sorry to throw cold water on that argument I've had to do that a handful of times on social media but it is true that the word shevat can be used to refer to a shepherd staff it can also be used to refer to a threshing

11:23stick stick that you would use to to thresh wheat and things like that I can be used to refer to a spear that is used in battle whether or not this refers to the bow staff of ninja turtle fame.

11:38So we don't know for sure that's still up in the air but I can ask Michelangelo I don't remember which one uses the bow staff and I'm going to get it in a lot of trouble because I don't remember.

11:53If it was Michelangelo everyone has to give me nerd points for that one and take a couple away from Dan.

12:00It's almost positive it's not Michelangelo I think is Donatello but I'm I could I could text Rob Paulson and ask him because he was he was the voice of two different ninja turtles.

12:12And and by the way he has a blurb on the back of my book too so perfect so he's going to be mad at me as well that's why that's why we have to include as many ninja turtles as we can in the show.

12:24Pizza dudes got 30 seconds.

12:30And it can also be used to revert to a cane used for corporal punishment by a slave master a parent or even God and what I got yes.

12:40Yeah God God in in Spanish at least when I was in Uruguay they would say baharlacanya which means to lower the cane which is what you do when you're when you're donkey or mule or whatever is not moving you baharlacanya.

12:55So yes God is known to baharlacanya from time to time.

13:00But when you look in Proverbs the word Chevy occurs a grand total of eight times seven other times in addition to our one occurrence in Proverbs 13 24 and unfortunately every single occurrence is explicitly a rod of discipline.

13:17You have Proverbs 10 13 on the lips of one who has understanding wisdom is found but a Chevy is for the back of one who lacks sense.

13:29So very clearly this is about striking someone with this stick Proverbs 22 eight whoever sows in justice will reap calamity and the rod of anger will fall. So another clear example of that Proverbs 22 15 folly is bound up in the heart of a child but the rod of discipline

13:51drives it far away. So beat the the the whimsy and the mischief and and the creativity right out of your kids yeah yeah absolutely not we will not be having any any shenanigans thank you.

14:09You want that far far away. Proverbs 26 three a whip for the horse a bridle for the donkey and a chevat for the back of fools. Proverbs 29 15 the rod and reproof give wisdom but a mother is disgraced by a neglected child.

14:27And here are the two most explicit ones or one verse right after the other in Proverbs 23 verses 13 and 14 do not withhold discipline from your child. If you beat them with a rod they will not die.

14:43If you beat them with the rod you will save their lives from shoal. Wow that is every occurrence of the word Chevy in the book of Proverbs and save their lives from shoal. I mean shoal is the concept of hell right.

14:59Not in the Hebrew Bible shoal was just the the abode of the dead but the idea here is is death the idea being that bad behavior leads to an early death something like that and so by beating their their whimsy and their their child like innocence out of them

15:19you are lengthening their life so they will not they will not die because you know they stole money from the wrong guy or something like that.

15:32So it's an intense what I guess what I'm what I'm getting at is that like they're they're not they're not going lightly with this that is heavy handed. They're they're saying this is the most important thing you absolutely have to beat your kid.

15:50Yeah yeah this is especially if they're dumb. Yeah you want to just beat the dumb out of them. Just beat the dumb out of them is what they're saying. Give them some give them some wisdom welts.

16:04And yeah this is they weren't shy about this this this wasn't like you know the 20 or 30 years ago where it was a you know you got it sometimes you know it this was like oh yeah beat the crap out of them.

16:19You're not going to die. And this is supposed to be you know Proverbs is wisdom literature this is supposed to be words to live by this is supposed to be you know follow these aphorisms and and this stuff and you know you'll live a wise and and

16:35influential life this is the how to win friends and influence people of the the fifth or the fourth centuries BCE and and they are heartily two thumbs up for beating your child with a stick.

16:51Yeah yeah and and specifically with a stick. Don't don't waste your don't like you can hurt your knuckles you don't want to you got to be careful with your you're going to need Tommy Johns if if you're using your hand too much.

17:08Yeah it is. It's pretty gross and it's it's a part of the Bible that as we've pointed out some people are trying to domesticate some people are trying to rehabilitate but this is these verses are always going to fall back into recidivism

17:27these verses cannot be rehabilitated they are all in on beating your kids yeah and we just have you just have to say Bible got it way wrong here.

17:38The yeah what whether you think this was King Solomon writing this or somebody else by the way it wasn't King Solomon writing this they just straight up got it wrong.

17:48Yeah. I think and I think a lot of people really struggle with that you know especially if they've been taught concepts of univocality concepts of infallibility right like it's it's hard to square that sort of thing but

18:05I want to remind people that they've already done that like you've already you've already concluded that slavery is wrong you know what I mean like we've all concluded that and that's that is going explicitly against things that are very much

18:22in the Bible yeah and so it's okay to also go explicitly against this part of the Bible and and so many people want to have it both ways there's so much cognitive dissonance among folks who are like slavery bad

18:36I've just got to ignore that the Bible says slavery is good right and then because because of the implications as the great poet once said because of the implication.

18:52It doesn't always sunny references that's an always sunny yeah a bad one but also got to reject those ideals as well because once any part of the Bible can be wrong any part of the Bible can be wrong

19:12right and so the implication is that the Bible is not a sufficient infallible inerrant historical univocal authoritative guide for life spiritual or temporal or anything in between

19:30once once you build up this this brittle foundation of it's all perfect and all true and all inspired any problem with it just just brings the whole thing crumbling down it is a house of cards and you just kind of have to ignore that you

19:47take in cards out and just hope that it's it stays together yeah so yeah very problematic.

20:00I think that it's interesting I think like I realized as I was sort of researching for this episode that it may not be immediately obvious to some of our listeners why we're saying that it's that these

20:15verses should be categorically thrown out and not just and you know not just like John Piper says taken to mean a spanking is not a problem spanking is okay or whatever.

20:28So I did say I started to dig into some of the research and we have well over 50 years of good psychological research about what is good for children psychologically in terms of discipline in terms of how we how children are corrected

20:50etc and what is like detrimental deleterious to their mental health to their like psychological well being going forward throughout life because you know as you raise a child obviously you're building the brain infrastructure for the rest of their

21:10lives and it's very clear like that there is like literally no doubt that any amount of hitting your child is harmful yeah like it doesn't matter if it's open hand on the bum.

21:23I mean and I was spanked as a kid.

21:27And my parents were very kind good people like this is it's understandable that you know thing more social ideas are going to change over time and and that's not a bad thing that's a good thing.

21:41But but yeah I mean so it's so funny you hear all these people of my generation your generation saying you know I was spanked as a child and I turned out great.

21:53So I mean it's like I feel like I turned out well and I don't and in the moment.

22:03I don't think that the spanking felt like it did that much harm to me and I you know as I was when I was very little and I was spanked I would cry.

22:10It didn't feel like deep trauma and yet you know there are there are studies that I read one study that was or read about a study that was done by some Harvard psychologists who did fMRI scans of children

22:27and as they looked at images of different faces and they looked at kids who had been spanked and kids who hadn't been spanked and strangely the kids who had been spanked had very very similar responses.

22:39As kids who had been like harshly beaten.

22:43So it does you know it basically causes fear neural pathways instead of nurturing nurtured neural pathways.

22:53It's genuinely bad.

22:55Yeah and one of the things that it does that you know that the subject is not really conscious of is it changes your neural pathways when it comes to threats.

23:07Like you respond differently to threats if you had a history of that.

23:14I actually cite a few things in the footnotes in this chapter of my book.

23:21There's an interesting one physical punishment and child outcomes.

23:25A narrative review of prospective studies from the Lancet just a couple years ago by Anya Heilman.

23:32There's corporal punishment and elevated neural response to threats in children by Jorge Quartas at all from a couple years ago as well as a journal called child development.

23:45Like it is yeah there's no debate.

23:47It's harmful.

23:48There are no positive outcomes.

23:50And we have better alternatives now.

23:52Yeah yeah much better alternatives.

23:54So despite what the Bible says and it says it quite explicitly and it says it quite emphatically.

24:02In multiple places.

24:04In multiple different ways and in multiple different places and yes is very excited about it as well.

24:13Please don't lay your hands on your kids.

24:16Yeah it's not a good thing irrespective of what the Bible says.

24:21If your hand if your household has a rod of anger maybe that should go away.

24:28Maybe don't maybe don't have that rod.

24:32Well get a get to fishing rod and take your kids to the creek for crying out loud to the river.

24:39Take them up into the mountains.

24:42Yeah get get some sheep and then get a shepherd's rod if you want to but no no hitting.

24:48A little crook yeah a little shepherd's crook teach him how to how to how to raise some sheep.

24:54By the way you do not swaddle them and put them in a manger.

24:58I'm going to swaddle sheep dammit I'm going to do it.

25:02Alright let's you hear and don't anoint them with oil because that's not going to help either.

25:07Well alright that was that was a little depressing that that whole thing beating children is not a fun topic.

25:15So let's move on to a really interesting chapter and verse.

25:22So we're starting this chapter and verse in 1 Corinthians chapter five.

25:29Am I right about that?

25:31Yup.

25:32Johnny five still alive.

25:35Drive 55.

25:36Arrive alive.

25:37Just just just nonsense 90s references pour out of you in in amazing ways.

25:43Johnny five is probably 80s huh.

25:45Is it that's probably that's probably 80s I don't know there was a sequel wasn't there.

25:50Who knows what it would anyway.

25:54First Corinthians five has it what we're not going to be talking about because there's a lot about it's like the heading the subheading or the chapter heading in the NRSVUE says sexual immorality defiles the church.

26:11But that's at the point that we're most interested in now I think as we talk about this what we're interested in is a moment where.

26:19And this is is this Paul is that who we're talking about this is Paul yeah.

26:24And Paul is writing and he says he starts with all you naughty Corinthians you guys have somebody among you who is living a man is living with his father's wife.

26:38Are we meant to believe that the father is dead now or no I think what we're probably meant to understand is that this is the dude's stepmother.

26:53So there's a whole genre of it's kind of thing.

27:00On certain websites on that exist on the internet you might find some stuff don't look it up mom don't look it up if you're watching.

27:11But so and just some background like Paul is writing this list and these letters are these are epistles letters that Paul is writing where he's gone through he's been on his mission trip.

27:23And he's established a church he's like all right guys you got it from here and then he gets a letter months or years later and they're like dear Paul.

27:33We've been having an issue with so and so and so and so he's writing back and he's like we talked about this and then he's giving them some advice and everything.

27:42And here he actually mentions that he had written a previous letter to the Corinthians and we don't have it.

27:47So there's a there's a there's a actually second Corinthians. Well yeah you could say there's a zero with Corinthians if you were if you were a moron like me.

27:56But there was an earlier letter and he's getting something back and they're evidently talking about some dude who is living with his stepmother and in this time period.

28:07You would have second marriages if a man divorced his wife or his wife died or something like that second marriages as with a lot of folks today the second marriage is to a woman who's much younger.

28:19And so there would be a lot more age proximity between stepmothers and the oldest child in first century Rome and so shenanigans with with stepmothers were probably not all that uncommon.

28:36And you know stepmothers and become like they're the classic villain of Disney movies and you know all kinds of fairy tales the step excuse me the stepmother is the villain.

28:49So we're dealing in pretty common tropes here but evidently Paul is up particularly upset with them because they're kind of proud of it or something.

28:59Yeah it's tricky he says and you are arrogant. Should you not rather have mourned so that he would he who has done this would have been removed from among you.

29:12He's very upset. Yeah they seem to be it doesn't matter or something anyway he does not like their reaction to this whole situation. And this is and this is right out of Leviticus 18 8 is the one of the thou shalt nots is thou shalt not engage in shenanigans with your with your father's wife.

29:39And in this period a lot of people think oh they you know everything went back in first century Rome or an earlier Greek society but no there were there were laws against this kind of incest in this time period and so Paul recognizes

29:58that even even the Romans think that this is out of the out of pocket so Paul's like what is wrong with y'all didn't I thought I raised you better.

30:09You know I avoided the hitting but he goes on for I though absent in body and present in spirit and as if present I have already pronounced judgment in the name of the Lord Jesus on the man who has done such a thing.

30:29When you are assembled and my spirit is present with the power of our Lord Jesus and so basically saying look next time you guys meet you are to hand this man over to Satan.

30:41Yeah that's a crazy thing it's not make sure that this guy gives himself over to God. He says you guys hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh. Yeah but it's what he says next that's fast enough.

31:01Yeah because Satan is apparently going to destroy his flesh so that the spirit may be saved in the day of our Lord or the day of the Lord rather.

31:13Yeah we got a couple of different ways to read this because yeah some texts say Lord Jesus and some actually I'm going to look up where those are we're going to the book.

31:30Yeah I'm pulling out my my Nestle Aland 28th edition to pull this up and see what's what we've got here. So at the end of verse five we've got Kiriyu the genitive of Kiriyos and yeah so p 61

31:49Sinaiticus a handful of others read Jesus or add Jesus so Lord Jesus some add Lord Jesus Christ some add our Lord Jesus Christ so yeah a bunch of different readings.

32:08Those are those are just all the things that you just said those lists of like numbers and letters or those are manuscripts are various ancient versions of this that we have at least segments of or something.

32:21Yeah yeah but that's just an interesting text critical question but ultimately the point is what the hell is going on here.

32:28Right yeah it does sound like a description of the afterlife question mark that I have not heard.

32:39Yeah because well there are a couple different ways to read both clauses.

32:44Well at least a couple there there are multiple different ways hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh like Satan wasn't just around like I'll kill anybody you want just hand them over and I'll kill them so there are scholars

33:00I think if you look at there's an old Hermannaya commentary series on first Corinthians from the 70s where I think he says this obviously refers to death.

33:11These days I think more scholars would suggest that probably doesn't seem to be in view they they had no authority to execute anybody and the last thing Paul was going to do would engage in extra judicial capital punishment.

33:26It seems to be we're going to kick him out from the protective shell of the Christian community like he's no longer going to be a part of the body of Christ and so he's going to be under the influence of Satan out there in the the wild

33:42whatever will he means and that is I think definitely in 80s reference. Bull Durham was from the 80s.

33:54That was a deep cut.

33:57But a lot of scholarship they would suggest the idea seems to be he's going to be subjected to the buffettings of Satan at least his flesh his body will.

34:10And this reveals kind of the dualism the platonic dualism that Paul seems to be promoting where the fleshly existence is the baser corrupt one and then spiritual existence your your divine spirit is the higher one.

34:27And you know the two happen to be together in life but the ideally you want to transcend the flesh and return to the spirit.

34:36And so maybe the idea is the buffettings of Satan and and the punishment of the flesh results in either it results in your purification.

34:49Like a refiner's fire this purifies your spirit you undergo these punishments and then you've paid your debt to God and then you are saved that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

35:04Maybe that's what it is. There are other scholars who suggest by being subjected to the buffettings of Satan.

35:12They're going to repent and come back to the fold and in that way the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

35:23And that brings up the question what it means for the spirit to be saved in the day of the Lord because as a lot of scholars have pointed out Paul does not say his spirit.

35:33Paul just says the spirit right and does that mean the man's spirit does it mean the congregations spirit there's this notion that that the church has a spirit that is governing and guiding it and so is it about ensuring that you have purged

35:53the community of this leaven because Paul talks about in the very next verse your boasting is not a good thing. Do you not know that a little yeast leavens all of the dough.

36:03And so the idea may be you know talking about another another saying that a lot of people get wrong a bad apple.

36:13A lot of people say oh he's just a bad apple no big deal well what does the bad apple saying mean right bad apple ruins the bunch which is the same as a little leaven a little yeast leavens all the dough.

36:26In other words if you keep this corrupt influence within the body of the church you're going to corrupt the entire body of the church.

36:33And so the idea is purge him you know pop him like a zit so that the church the body of the church and its spirit is able to be saved.

36:46I don't know which one it is scholars are still arguing over this but one of I think the reading that certainly seems to make sense is that this in some sense this has to do with this man's own salvation.

37:02I think that's if not I think it's certainly a plausible reading and so some people have talked about this as an example of universalism.

37:13A fancy Greek word for this is apochatastasis which feels like you just did a magic thing yeah or I just made it up but yeah it's a word that actually occurs in the book of acts but it means the restoration.

37:32Usually it's it's used to refer to restoration of all things the idea and we have some early Christians who talk about this is that ultimately the goal of all of this.

37:43And everyone be saved. And so you have Christians like origin and others origins probably the most influential Christian theologian of the first five centuries well probably up to Augustine.

37:58But was ultimately branded a heretic and condemned as well.

38:03Yeah but they took a lot of his insights with them sure sure I mean yeah obviously you're not going to throw away the insights you're just going to hang the guy as a heretic.

38:12Well it was long after his death actually it was it was a posthumous and hang it condemning.

38:20We figuratively hang thee until the are dead and but yeah he advocated for in some sense a brand of universalism and some people think Paul is doing the same.

38:34He talks about the restoration of all things elsewhere. He talks about all being saved in Christ. And so for some folks this is just another reference to this idea that even if someone is handed over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh the ultimate

38:51end of that process is that the spirit is saved.

38:55Yeah I got to say when I read it my initial impulse was was that what it was saying was it was almost so initially my brain said this is posthumous after this guy is dead he is going to be handed over

39:12I'm not saying that this is correct but this is where my brain went yeah after was dead he would be handed over to Satan his flesh would be destroyed by Satan and that seems in my mind and I love this interpretation

39:28it's it's not correct but I think it's so much better than the hell that then the concepts of hell that I've heard before but like the idea that Satan has a job that job isn't eternal conscious torment it's destruction of the bad parts the corrupt parts of the

39:47self so that the spirit can then go on and be and be exalted in some way that's how I read it.

39:58Yeah you might say that he is the he's the cancer treatment if sin is the cancer he is he's the treatment that yeah sure it makes you lose your hair but hopefully it gets rid of everything and then you get to go on and be saved in the end

40:16Satan is chemo I like it yeah I mean it just it does seem like the idea like I just love the idea that this guy is bad that this that his is behavior is abominable and we need to do whatever the work is for him to be saved

40:36yeah and and Paul never seems to like the only part of the Pauline epistles that makes any kind of plausible reference to any notion of hell is something that is in second Thessalonians I think which a lot of scholars don't even believe was written by Paul where it just talks about

40:56eternal destruction and which which could mean a couple of different things you're destroyed and it's permanent like annihilationism right boom that's the end that's the not just don't exist anymore

41:09right or it could mean a lot of a lot of people who think that we already have unilaterally eternal conscious torment represented throughout the New Testament will say no it means this process of destruction that lasts forever but

41:26I don't think that's supported by anything Paul never uses any of the three words for hell anyway and so whether it's Gehenna Tartarus or Hades they never occur in any of Paul's writings

41:40and so a lot of people think well he's he has no concept of post-mortem divine punishment if he does it seems to be annihilationism anyway

41:50and so yeah some some people just want to lean into universalism and yeah and we we have within some of the Gnostic literature an idea that the punishment that you undergo is actually intended to be an education and a purification

42:07so that ultimately you have the knowledge that is saving so that you achieve salvation so there are streams of tradition within Gnosticism that are universalist as well

42:24it's I think it's also worth mentioning that at no point in this story does Paul say call him to repentance make give him x y and give this sinner x y and z work

42:38it's not saying any of that it's just saying

42:42you guys need to like it does say shun him it's a sort of like you know we need to socially shame this and kick it out from among us but

42:56it's not it's it's it and no place does it say he needs to do X it just says you guys kick him out leave him to Satan Satan will destroy his flesh and then and then his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord

43:12yeah and Paul goes on verses 9 through 13 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral persons and then he gives kind of a caveat that I think is funny not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world

43:27or the greedy and swindlers or idolaters since you would then need to go out of the world he basically don't associate with sexually immoral people I don't mean all the all the Gentiles that are around you you gotta you kind of gotta deal with them

43:43but now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother or sister who is sexually immoral or greedy or an idolater reviler drunk or swindler do not even eat with such a one for what have I to do with judging those outside

43:58meaning outside the church I'm not judging the Gentiles are you not the judges of those who are inside God will judge those outside drive out the wicked person from among you so it is concerned

44:11seems to be for the reputation of the church and for the what he perceives to be the spiritual health of the church basically saying hey you guys you're functioning as a group and you need to pop this guy like a pimple and get him out of there

44:30get him out from underneath your skin because otherwise you know that that yeast is gonna leaven the whole lump it also like it's also very important to point out that when that this is so what we have is a chapter in which

44:50sexual immorality is explicitly judged as being really bad and the only example given has nothing to do with homosexuality it is it is explicitly a heterosexual but just naughty relationship

45:07and unsanctioned relationship yeah and he refers to it so the NRSVUE uses this word sexual immorality to translate the Greek word pornia which is where we get the word porn from and it's in the oldest most widespread usage it primarily

45:27referred to sex work or to adultery which were kind of the two prototypes of inappropriate sexual activity in the ancient world and then as it was used more and more it the gaps were kind of filled in with any other sexual activity

45:44that was considered unseemly by a given social group so a lot of people want to know does the Bible say anything explicitly about sex before marriage and the answer is not directly but probably an awful lot of them thought that pornia was an umbrella term that included

46:04sex before marriage as long as the social group considered that to be an inappropriate sexual activity and Paul was one who thought everybody should be celibate anyway so Paul was it's all pornia to him

46:19yeah yes it's it's all pornia to him and who I'll shoot I can't remember the name of the Supreme Court justice who knows it when he sees it yeah who knows it when he sees it yeah I actually cited that Supreme Court case in a paper

46:37once where I was taught I was talking about why you can't define conceptual categories but that's a classic classic example of that but Paul knows it when he sees it and it's everything basic and it's does it involve sex

46:51then it's pornia pornia pornia pornia pornia but that is yeah it is a glimpse into at least one of the examples of something that he condemns us as pornia and it is something that is explicitly condemned in Leviticus 18 8 so he's well within the Jewish sexual ethic

47:13when he's talking about problems with with stepmother stuff so there you go I yeah I in order to sort of do some research for this segment I actually went back and listened to a an older episode of a very good show that I that I listened to sometimes

47:34I listened to one of our one of our episode from over a year ago about hell because I wanted because it's this seems to present like you say it there's a possibility here that we have

47:53I mean what one of the things that we discussed in that episode was just that there are so many different conceptualizations of what the afterlife looks like whether there is a punishment for the wicked

48:06and I just like that this muddy is that water a little bit further yeah yeah there was there was no single authoritative concept everybody was basically you know I always and I go back to Talladega nights I think Jesus as a

48:25one of them tuxedo t shirts for a baby and he's got this eagle with these big old wings but like everybody's just sharing their own opinion and it just the accident of preservation what gets what gets into the Bible what doesn't and then later literature that my 15 year old I was driving her to school this morning was talking about how they were reading Dante's Inferno

48:53at school and like really I didn't get to read that when I was in high school but and she was like that dude was messed up but that you know that kind of literature is what solidifies a lot of that kind of stuff is what creates these consensus

49:12views that then become go from de facto doctrine to the jury doctrine because yeah if you take the Bible at its word it has a ton of different often self contradictory things to say about how God punishes the wicked after death

49:28and this is a good example of a rather confusing thing that Paul says about what goes on with with people who mess around with their step moms yeah all right well there you go don't look up step mom poor Nia unless you want to

49:45but I think yeah fascinating stuff uh I love it I think that that's good don't hit your kids also step moms don't spank you spank you can spank your step mom

50:00unless he's consensual wait a minute I don't okay you're great you know what you're all gonna have to sort yourselves out um we'll talk we'll figure it all out in the after party yeah and you guys can come along to that if you

50:12want to you can become a patron of this show over on patreon.com/dataoverdogma thereby gaining access to an early and add free version of every episode of the show plus at the ten dollar a month level or higher you can you can you can hear the after party which is us having a bunch of fun

50:36uh if you guys would like to write into us you can do so at contact at dataoverdogmapod.com and we'll talk to you again next week bye everybody

50:53dataoverdogma is a member of the airwave media podcast network it is a production of data overdogma media LLC copyright 2024 all rights reserved