Ep 88: Josiah the Cult Killer

00:00Hezekiah was able to defend Jerusalem and after a while Sennacherib up and left and later

00:07wrote that he trapped Hezekiah in his capital city like a bird in a cage but ultimately

00:13couldn't take the city couldn't get it at the bird but man he was trapped there yeah

00:18he rattled the cage a bit and and got upset and was like I'm not changing your newspaper

00:23so take that bird hey everybody I'm Dan McClellan and I'm Dan Beecher and you are listening

00:34to the Data Over Dogma podcast where we increase public access to the academic study of the

00:40Bible and religion and combat the spread of misinformation about the same how are things

00:46today Dan things are good I this is funny when we were when I was prepping for this

00:52episode I thought it was a cool idea for a topic and I was excited about like delving

00:59into it and learning about it and the more I learned about it the more I was like I

01:03don't know about talking about this in a time of Christian nationalism in our country yes

01:12made me a little bit nervous so I'm still excited about it I still think it's a very

01:16interesting story from the Bible but don't try what you're about to hear at home is that

01:23what you're yeah don't don't share this with any of your Christian nationalist friends

01:28they'll think it is a an instruction manual and it it's very much not thus the inner

01:36rocket of nature of the title of this segment which is biblical heroes yes yeah that question

01:48mark is really important there's a lot it's a load bearing question mark it is a pregnant

01:55question mark that's the rounded shape yes indeed because we're going to be talking

02:00about Josiah King who has talked about in in both kings and chronicles because somehow

02:08kings and chronicles are the same thing are they the same thing they're they're very

02:13different however chronicles is basically taking Samuel and Kings and then some other

02:19stuff that we don't have and rewriting it to tell most of the same stories but in a different

02:25way yeah that's weird yes because it's coming much later right yeah okay well

02:30we're gonna start I mean my main focus was on second Kings verse chapter 23 22 and 23

02:4022 and 23 sure okay but I mean the rubber really hits the road in 23 that's that's where the

02:46exciting stuff happens 22 is the is the pretense for everything that happens so why don't we

02:52tell why don't we start there tell us a little bit about what's happening give us a little

02:56bit of background leading into 22 yeah and and we'll go from there so we're gonna back

03:03up a little over a century to King Hezekiah just to talk about the invasion of Sennacherib

03:09okay so under when King Hezekiah comes to the throne the the nation of Judah is under

03:17vassalage to the neo Assyrian Kingdom so they are paying them a tribute they are sending

03:23soldiers when Syria says send soldiers and Hezekiah decides that he doesn't like this

03:31and he's kind of he wants to ally with Egypt so he's kind of going over to Egypt saying

03:36can you help me throw off vassalage to the Assyrians I'll pay tribute to you I I'll be

03:42your vassal that's much yeah and and the Syria gets wind of this and so we have Sennacherib

03:49this Assyrian King who decides he's going to invade scorched earth campaign starts in

03:55the north destroys most of the northern kingdom comes down south destroys a bunch of major

03:59cities La Quiche we've talked about La Quiche a bit in the past that is he destroys that

04:05city and memorializes that process on a bar relief that covered numerous walls of his palace

04:13in Nineveh and we have those reliefs well the British Museum stole those reliefs yes I

04:19just barely saw them a month ago you saw them they were fantastic yeah that's that's one

04:24of the things that you know when when you and I do a tour into England that's one of the

04:29things that we will show everybody yeah definitely and and it's a fascinating portrayal of an

04:35Assyrian siege of a city and we actually have the remains from the siege and can reconstruct

04:42the siege ramp and all that kind of stuff and that became kind of home base while trying

04:49to lay siege to Jerusalem but they weren't able to take Jerusalem has a Kaya was able

04:55to defend Jerusalem and after a while Sennacherib up and left and later wrote that he trapped

05:02has a Kaya in his capital city like a bird in a cage but ultimately couldn't couldn't

05:07get at the bird but man yeah yeah he rattled the cage a bit and and got upset and was like

05:15I'm not changing your newspaper you're gonna have to just pile up that crap take that bird

05:23but we and and you know we have we have material remains from this event so like there was a

05:30tunnel that was carved under the city of David that you can walk through to this day I find

05:36it a quite unnerving experience I have done it multiple times and I have found it quite

05:41unnerving but that was a dug so that they would have access to a spring that was outside

05:47the city they would kind of have secret access to this water but anyway the result of this

05:53is that pretty much all of the main cult sites all the main places where people went to worship

05:58if they were not worshipping privately in their own home or in little local shrines around

06:04the corner or something like that they had to go to temples or larger cult centers and

06:10these were all destroyed all except for the temple in Jerusalem and so you have what some

06:16scholars call a de facto cult centralization where just incidentally there only happens

06:23to be one main cult center where we can go and has a Kaya was king when all this happens

06:29and then you have two other kings after has a Kaya Manasseh and Ammon and then we get to

06:35Josiah who reigns between around 639 to 609 BCE and there are scholars and I'm one of

06:43them who think that after has a Kaya's reign the next two kings tried to restore the cultic

06:51sites and the cultic practices that were going on in these cities prior to the invasion of

06:57Sinakarib and then we get to Josiah and things go different yes yes I think it's important

07:06to point out that like when we're talking about these these sort of cult places to worship

07:14we're not just talking about worshipping a single god right and and I think that it's

07:22I think that the the image that most people have about sort of biblical times is that

07:31God's people as sort of presented in the Bible we're always just we worship our one

07:40God and that's all there is and you know as long as you're one of our people that's

07:44all you do right if they're even aware that other gods exist in the Bible there's no

07:50sense that like other Judeans would be would would have any other ideas but to worship that

07:58single God in in whatever correct way you would do it but these what what's about to

08:07happen what Josiah is about to do make it clear first of all that like that wasn't the

08:12case at all yeah yeah when when we look at the facts on the ground they tell a much different

08:18story and what we get in the Bible is kind of a sanitized idealized set of propagandistic

08:27stories the and they're trying to assert well this is the way it is and and in reality

08:33these texts are actually coming from a later time period and are looking back and saying

08:38we're going to tell you the story of our our you know forefathers but in a way that serves

08:46our interests and so and that's and that's one of the hard things to tease apart biblical

08:52scholars look at the archaeology they look at the text they they look at human nature

08:56and how these things work and and they've got to try to tease apart what seems likely to

09:00be historical versus what seems like likely to be a retelling that is a historical precisely

09:07because it serves the structuring of power of someone later down the road so right that

09:12I mean it's it's the old adage that history is written by the victors right it's right

09:17it's this idea that like however it turned out that's going to be written as the correct

09:23way for it to have turned out like that's how that's that's how that's going to be written

09:28at least if it worked out well for the people who are currently in power yeah and you know

09:33when I was growing up learning about early American history you know we're taught that

09:37George Washington was this larger-than-life figure who was a champion for for all these

09:43different virtues and ideals and you know in the the paintings that we see that are

09:48in legislative buildings around the country he's like literally a god yeah in in a lot

09:55of the ways that that he's represented and and these you know we get the the cannot tell

10:00a lie stories and we have all these ideologies these ideas about how Washington was and the

10:07people around him and if you go actually look at the history and how scholars reconstruct

10:11his life and and things like dude had some some major major issues and so we do the same

10:18thing we tell the stories in a way that serves the image that we want to evoke of what we

10:25are supposed to be as a people and they were doing the same thing back then only I think

10:30it's even more like transparently propaganda and some of these stories I wonder if let

10:38me just paint a picture and you tell me how how off base I am okay because the image that

10:43I get even from just reading this this bit written by the victors as we say and written

10:50in a propagandistic way to serve a specific agenda mm-hmm I still when I read it and I

10:57don't you know I don't go into it with the same the same eyes that I would have had when

11:03I was a believer like when I was when I was a believer I would have seen this very differently

11:08but when I look at it now I see it as there were a bunch of people who you know things

11:14just worship was sort of spread out more and you have a you know you have a society where

11:19yes you can worship Adonai and you can probably like go to Ashera you know the Ashera shrines

11:30and you know there there's talk of women who are who are what is it knitting or we they're

11:37weaving yeah weaving they're yeah they're they're making things for Ashera or in honor

11:42of Ashera and then there are other people who are worshiping bail and and you know but

11:47everybody seems to be getting along well like society seems to be working and that's

11:52just you know like many other places in in the world at that time you you could worship

11:59multiple gods and and you know different gods had different uses for you is that about what

12:04we're looking at yeah yeah they be and you've also got a bunch of social levels at which

12:10this is going on because in your house you might have an ancestral shrine you've got and

12:17you know this goes all the way back into Neolithic time periods where we've got your Jericho

12:21skull where they've they've used clay and seashells to to put flesh back on a skull and that sits

12:28on the on the mantle and that is you know that's uncle Dave and you know you bring him

12:35out on his birthday and you have a festival or you have a meal and he's at the table and

12:41like you know that that kind of stuff is is old tale as old as time and you have something

12:47similar going on probably in early Israel where you might have a standing stone that

12:52represents one of your ancestors and you share a meal with it you pour one out for the homies

12:57in front of the standing stone you there are just a numerous different ways that you can

13:02privately in your own home engage in ancestor worship and you might seek their their aid

13:09you might in one way or another invoke their blessing on your family on a new marriage

13:15on you know so and so won't give me my my tools back so you might ask the the ancestors

13:21to curse them with you know really bad something so it can go on privately it can go on within

13:31your little village maybe you got a little hamlet you got a dozen homes and maybe there's

13:37one ancestor the great great grandfather who established the town maybe his standing stone

13:43and that of his wife is at the entrance to the town we have discovered a bunch of this

13:48and so you know you've got a local cult of some kind going on maybe you're you're worshiping

13:54ashera because you're in a women's group some kind of guild of of weavers or of pot makers

14:02or something like that and you have either ashera or some other deity who's supposed

14:06to bless you for doing this kind of thing maybe you get together and you in somewhere

14:11another worship that goddess there are a bunch of different levels on which the worship is

14:17going on as well I mean this kind of thing still happens this is not different from you

14:21know from invoke you know trying to pray to saints or to you know people do go to their

14:28ancestors and like ask for help from their you know from their grandmothers who's looking

14:33out over them yeah that's not this is this is still happening this is very like I mean

14:39it's very clear you've you've talked about this from a cognitive science of religion

14:45perspective mm-hmm as just something that's very human to do yeah very very natural to

14:51seek out connection with the people who've gone before particularly if they've had significant

14:55impact on your life or you sense in some way that that you need help and and you think

15:01they're best equipped to to provide that help that's that's perfectly natural and yeah that's

15:07that's almost certainly what was going on in early Israel we have found inscriptions funerary

15:13inscriptions so you know bless be so and so by Adonai and his ashera which seems to suggest

15:20that both are sources of blessing in one way or another and and probably sources of different

15:24kinds of blessings L was the patriarchal high deity you went to if you wanted who was benevolent

15:31and you went to to beseech for help if in in certain situations Adonai was the storm deity

15:37that you might beseech if you needed rain for your crops or you needed a some kind of blessing

15:43of fertility my wife has a difficult pregnancy we want to make sure that this baby makes

15:48it or that that my wife survives the delivery or stuff like that so you would go to different

15:53deities for this kind of stuff and we have evidence of of people go into different deities

15:57and just kind of generically seeking some kind of divine agency there's a there are artifacts

16:04we call Judean pillar figurines which are small you know maybe six to eight inch high

16:11figurines that have a little base and it looks like the bottom half of it is just kind of

16:16a cylinder that that widens a little bit to a base but the top half is usually there's

16:22a face of a woman either like pinched to create like eye sockets in the nose or there can

16:28be a molded female face and then they're usually arms holding up breasts and and these have

16:36been found all hundreds and hundreds of these have been found all around Jerusalem and Judah

16:42and we think they're probably just kind of generic we're seeking some kind of agency

16:47out there to help heal somebody who might be sick or to protect somebody you know you

16:51might line them up around your bed or something or your kids bed if they have a really high

16:56fever to ward off the demons or something like that so there's an awful lot of that kind

17:01of stuff going on in this time period and and nobody seems to have concern with it like

17:08yeah it seems like any very negative references to this all of this all of this is going fine

17:14everybody's getting along and then someone finds a book which is isn't this always the

17:22way suddenly appears talk about that a little bit so it's about this kid name a tray you

17:30and now a tray you are tax all right go on and so so the high priest comes to to the king

17:42Josiah one day and says so I found a book it was in the temple and turns out we've been

17:49doing everything wrong and and Josiah tears his clothes and they take the book to to hold

17:56the the prophetess who lived in the college which is how the king James version reads

18:01which I always thought was hilarious I did a little like cartoon showing some high priest

18:07like at a dorm room like knocking on a door and hold opens the door and she's like if

18:13the RA catches you here I'm gonna get in a lot of trouble but they and then they read

18:22the book and they go oh crap we're in a lot of trouble we've been doing everything wrong

18:27and Josiah because he's the the most righteous righteous man to ever live decides well we

18:34got to make things right and Josiah if if chronicles is to be believed I don't remember

18:44if it's added in Kings but Josiah was a kid like he can't according to chronicles he came

18:51to power at age eight and by the time this stuff was happening he was like 16 to 20 yeah

18:56so in in 2nd Kings 22 it says Josiah was eight years old when he began to rain he rained

19:01in 31 years in Jerusalem yeah okay right yeah and and so yeah he's pretty young for a king

19:10but if this is supposed to have happened the finding Hill Kaya the high priest finds the

19:16book of the law in the 18th year of King Josiah okay so so so he's he's at least he at least

19:23is eligible to be in the college whether the RAs are going to kick him out but this all

19:30of this does seem like the act of a of a 26 year old or someone is in his 20s yeah yeah

19:38somebody who tears his clothes and says what was us we've brought the the judgment of God

19:42upon us we need to we need to reform everything yeah and so then 23 yes yes so now we're in

19:51now we're in chapter 23 and and he he's not gentle about how he how he decides to reform

20:03things hmm he he basically just brings out everybody and takes every like literally everyone

20:16if you've seen the professional bring me everyone he basically it says he went up to the house

20:25of the Lord I assume that means the temple it does and and with him went all the people

20:31of Judah all the inhabitants of Jerusalem the priests the prophets and all the people I think

20:39we've already said that that's a little that's bad writing right there both small and great

20:45he read in their hearing all the words of the book oh gosh he wrote he read them the whole

20:50book yeah can you can you imagine you're just you know you're on your your PlayStation or

20:56whatever and somebody's like hey the king needs us everybody goes to go he screams everyone

21:02yeah and and they go up there and they're like he's reading to us we have to hear a book anyway

21:10then he reads the book and I guess is his justification for what he's about to do which

21:17is that he basically commands his priests to go into all of the temples and bring out all

21:27of the vessels for bale for ashra and for all the host of heaven meaning I guess the divine

21:40council is that what we're talking about that that's part of it in this in this time period

21:45we're we're talking about the end of the seventh century BCE we saw in Deuteronomy 419 the idea

21:51that the sun the moon and the stars and all the host of heaven so host of heaven literally

21:56is the celestial bodies that are up there in the sky at but they're all seen as deities

22:01right and we see this in judges 5 with Cicera the the stars fought in their courses against

22:07Cicera so they're their deities and they're in army and God marshals the army and all this

22:13kind of stuff and so what this is suggesting is that there were cultic objects that facilitated

22:20the worship of the host of heaven in the in the Jerusalem temple and so the Tanakh cult

22:28stand which I think we've talked about before one of the at the very top of it there's an

22:33equine figure and a sun disk that is on the top of it with some with some rays coming

22:39out from it but that would be an example of a member of the host of heaven although the

22:45sun would be identified with the head god would be identified with Adonai so right so

22:53all of these artifacts all of these various things that were used in worship of anyone

23:01other than Adonai right brought out burned destroyed and and their ashes carried to Bethel

23:10I don't know what what that's about well they're going to they're destroying everything the

23:18priests of the high places so that they're also destroying all the other cult sites which

23:24they're calling high places bamot which means all the other temples and the ashes they're

23:30using to defile altars okay because they're they're human well they're they're killing

23:37people as well and the human remains are oh that's right yeah it's not just the things

23:45it's not just the vessels he ends up just killing I mean it he deposed the idolatrous

23:52priests whom the kings of Judah had ordained is deposed a euphemism here what verse are

23:59we I'll look at this verse five yeah put an end to okay like it the it's based on the

24:07verbal root shavats to cease to rest so cause to cease okay the camareem so the co-mar would

24:17be it's a it's a type of priest okay but but considered in a legitimate priest so not a

24:22Levitical priest oh and and if you want to tickle some Mormon ears here the this is always

24:29fun to do co-mar would be this type of priest the type of priesthood held by these non-Levitical

24:36priests would be komorrah that's a that's a Mormon deep cut for all yeah that's a deep

24:45cut for it just for fun that's a hill Dan's gonna die on anyway yeah takes takes the bones

24:53from the tombs and and crushes them up and and scatters them on the the altars to defile

25:00them the human remains would defile them so they're no longer usable and basically decommissioning

25:05and and invalidating everything yeah so so he is he is going he is just laying things

25:12to waste yes he deposed the idolatrous priests with whom the king's blah blah blah those

25:19who also who made offerings to bail to the sun the moon the constellations and all the

25:25host of heavens he brought out the image of Asherah from the house of the Lord outside

25:32Jerusalem to the Wadi Kidron what that's a is that a river it is so wadi is like a river

25:40bed that sometimes fills with water if there's rain so this is this is the valley that's

25:44on the east side of the temple mount okay and then he beat it to dust and through the

25:49dust upon the graves of the common people so so he's now desecrating graves of just

25:56regular people most regular people but if you go down a little further he's he's going

26:02through and it says in verse 16 he turned and looked up at the tomb of the man of God who

26:06had proclaimed these things then he said what is that monument that I see that people of

26:10the city told him it is the tomb of the man of God who came from Judah and proclaimed

26:14these things that you have done against the altar at Bethel he said let him rest so that

26:21he's like screw you screw you screw you you're cool this guy's okay yeah this is that's my

26:27guy right there don't do anything there but like this is it's funny because as I talk

26:34to you now I see that this is even worse than it was when I read it like he is he is going

26:40out of his way not just to sort of destroy the the objects of the thing and and also like

26:47kill some of the worshipers and the priests and whatever but he is defiling not just not

26:54just their temples but definitely their temples like you know he defiles the temple of khemosh

27:01the abomination of Moab we've talked about khemosh before and as a matter of fact there's

27:09kind of a you know you were talking about the vassalage earlier with Hezekiah and that

27:15you know we talked many many months ago about a mirror image of that which is the which is

27:23when Moab threw off the vassalage of of Israel very yeah yeah anyway so which which feels

27:34very which felt very similar but this so basically this is a this is a massacre this is a this

27:42is horrifying and and he did like he basically did it he didn't just start the job he he finished

27:52it yeah yeah it was he started the job and he finished the job and which was Hezekiah

27:59was unable to do this there are reforms that were said to have happened under Hezekiah

28:02which involved destroying the high places but it says he didn't put an end to the worship

28:08of of Asherin and Baal and stuff like that but Josiah went whole hog and and decided

28:14to to put an end to everything and but there's an interesting thing to note about the result

28:21of all this because this is the idea is oh we found the book of the law which basically

28:25says you're only supposed to worship one deity in one place using one priesthood and so at

28:31the end of the day when the dust settles and Josiah comes back home he now reigns over a

28:38country where everyone who wants to worship a deity has to come to his temple controlled

28:45by his priesthood in his city to worship the one God of whom he is the only representative

28:53and this is why people talk about cult centralization he's basically consolidating all of the cultic

29:01power to himself and saying I am in charge of all of it now and you're not allowed to

29:07do anything unless you come to me which is a big change a big change and when you know

29:17it's so interesting because like I said when I think I think a lot of a lot of and I you

29:24know what as I was reading about this and looking at articles about this there are a

29:29lot of believers of Christians of people who take this story to be the story of a hero

29:41which is why we called it you know the segment biblical heroes question because from that

29:47from the perspective of well you know that book of the law was was correct he just did

29:55what what was good in the eyes of the Lord as it says in the book yeah I don't know how

30:02I could see it that way I don't know how I could look at it and honestly see that as

30:07as a like even if you believe that these people are worshiping someone that they shouldn't

30:13be worshiping this act this is a genocidal act and it and and it is done so it is done

30:21in the in the pursuit of as you say an immense power grab yeah yeah absolutely and yeah there's

30:32not really another way well I think when when you look at all the data honestly there's not

30:37really a way to understand it is anything other than a power grab I mean later generations

30:45are going to say well that was an attempt to restore a degree of faith that would protect

30:51Israel against its enemies but it failed pretty quickly within within nine years of his death

30:58already the Babylonians are like hey those are pretty nice shoes you got on give them

31:02to me and so things go south and people like well it's because they they were doing all

31:08the bad stuff and and this is all you know post hoc rationalization right and and this

31:14kind of rationalization is common throughout ancient West Asia we see it and you mentioned

31:18Moab the Misha inscription they in that inscription they rationalize why chemosh allowed Israel

31:26to subjugate Moab they say that chemosh was angry with his land right which is the exact

31:32same thing that you find in the books of of kings and chronicles that Adonai is angry

31:37with their people and so is allowing is using Assyria and Babylon as an instrument to to

31:45punish them and to and to try to discipline them so it it it's all these post hoc rationalizations

31:52and this and this centralization of power and and most scholars say Josiah probably

31:59did some of this stuff but like the majority of it is just rhetorical this it wasn't this

32:06grand thing where everybody came out of their houses and he's like off to Bethel and everybody

32:10marched to Bethel and they murdered the priests and and burned their bodies on the altars

32:15and were like back to Jerusalem and they all go back to Jerusalem I would say king or not

32:22anyone who's tried to wrangle even 40 people to do the same thing everybody come out and

32:28listen to me read a book no I don't think I don't think it's going to work out that

32:32easily yeah so many narratives put far too much faith in the ability of of intellectuals

32:40to control populations of people yeah I have I have so many friends who are like you think

32:45I'm trying to overturn your upbringing of your kids and turn them into Marxist I can't

32:49even get them to read a chapter from a textbook right like I am not the puppet master controlling

32:58your children and and yeah this kind of this kind of thing just isn't realistic this notion

33:05that everybody was like oh I am pricked in my heart and I've had a change of heart and

33:09now I recognize that we've got to appropriately worship the Lord so I'm destroying my memorabilia

33:16I'm destroying my memorials to my mother right because that's no longer acceptable is there

33:23also I guess I should ask how much so you say that it probably didn't happen this this

33:30on this granda scale but we do think that this did happen yeah to some degree and I and I

33:36and there are scholars out there like so Susan Ackerman is a wonderful scholar who's recently

33:43published a book called women and the religion of ancient Israel and she's also published

33:48other stuff on priestesses and and goddesses and how they were worshipped and stuff like

33:53that and and she has published work arguing that part of this was probably trying to destroy

33:59ancestral worship and also worship that was curated by women so there would have been women

34:07who who controlled or at least curated guided the worship of ashara and so part of it would

34:13have been also to shut them down and so to the degree that that these reforms took power

34:21away from minoritized groups like marginalized priesthoods like priestesses women the worship

34:28of ashara the worship of ancestors that's probably more historical that makes a lot of sense

34:36yeah yeah and and there probably was there probably were ashareem ashara things in the

34:45temple there are scholars who have argued that I don't know if you recall all the things

34:49that were put into the arc of the covenant the tablets of the law are one the the manna

34:55the manna a bowl of that was another and then there was erin's budding rod all right which

35:01bears striking resemblance to an ashara pole yeah and so there's a there's a scholar named

35:07run an eichler who has argued that's the story of erin's budding rod might be a post hoc

35:13rationalization of why there's an ashara in the arc of the covenant so that that is a

35:20possible explanation of that but it wouldn't it wouldn't surprise me or many other scholars

35:25if there were these things in the temple because like I said we've got these inscriptions

35:29that talk about Adonai and his ashara we have multiple of them so it's not unlikely that

35:36that kind of thing was going on and this was an attempt to say nope my one deity and the

35:43and I think there's an interesting coincidence here this is the ideology that the identity

35:50that kind of gets starts to get put together right as the exile happens and when they go

35:57into exile what do you do when suddenly your social group is um wrenched out of your land

36:04and put in another land and you got to survive survive you circle the wagons and you firm

36:08up the boundaries right and you lean heavy into the identity markers which are now everything

36:14that Josiah wanted them to be and so the the concept of what it means to be Israel what

36:20it means to be God's people what it means to worship Adonai went from Josiah's potentially

36:28temporary reforms to this is the key to our survival as a people going into and then coming

36:35back out of the exile and so I think incidentally what Josiah wanted became cemented into the

36:43very foundation of the identity of Judah and Israel and became the foundation of the

36:49later Jewish identity and and so I think it's an interesting incidental um observation that

36:58that if the if the exile hadn't happened it may have been it like it may not have gone

37:04this way and they would have gone back to ashrow worship and all these other things maybe

37:09I think that's fascinating I think I and it seems to me a very a very strong possibility

37:14I love it we have something like that going on in Egypt with Akhenaten when he comes to

37:19the throne and he's suddenly like everybody everybody's gotten worship worship at and everybody

37:26and uh and you know moves the capital and changes everything and there's all these reforms

37:31and then he dies and his son to Tonk common was like uh yeah no we're gonna go back to

37:37the wood things don't worry about it it's fine so it's temporary little little glitch

37:42in in Egyptian history so who knows if if that could have happened something like that within

37:47a couple generations of Josiah we'll never know because the Babylonians came a knocking

37:53at the door all right well that's that's nuts that's very interesting but we have another

37:59uh another segment that we got to get to so all right and it's quasi related um but we're

38:06gonna we're gonna do a segment that we're gonna call artifacts and fiction and this segment

38:16of artifacts and fiction uh Dan is there we're gonna we're gonna head back to Hezekiah am

38:22I correct yes we're gonna talk about Hezekiah because we mentioned that uh Sennacherib came

38:27through town and when he was in town he was like I don't like the looks of those temples

38:32let's destroy them all so there was this de facto cult centralization caused by the destruction

38:37of all these temples and we have discovered some of them oh wow we have more than one temple

38:47from the first temple period that uh all indications are that these things were authorized by the

38:54central uh Judahite authorities in Jerusalem uh one of them is in the southern desert uh place

39:01called a rod uh it is in in the Negev it's on the top of this uh this hill uh that it's in the

39:09corner of a fortress that was built there so um if you look at the archaeological reports they

39:14call I believe they call it stratum 10 uh but there's a temple built into the corner of this fortress

39:21and this temple was discovered in the 60s and it was basically covered in about six feet of soil of

39:29earth and when they dug it out they found a standing stone and they found a couple of incense altars

39:36just laying on their side in the holy of holies and kind of down the steps of the holy of holies

39:43and they weren't destroyed they were just kind of turned over and uh covered in a bunch of earth

39:49and you know the the altar is there they found a bunch of dishes a bunch of implements they found

39:54letters uh written on pot shirts that are talking about the house of Adonai that are talking about

40:01priestly families that are mentioned in the bible uh that are they're talking about uh correspondences

40:07back and forth uh with Jerusalem so this is a temple that is probably under if not hezekiah's

40:14purview uh maybe hezekiah's uh predecessors jothem or a has or something like that but this is an

40:21authorized temple and then somewhere around uh 700 B.C.E. somewhere around the reign of hezekiah

40:28suddenly it just stops and it gets buried in six feet of earth and so the the archaeologists who

40:36excavated this temple were like this is one of the high places that fell victim to hezekiah's

40:42reforms um and and that makes perfect sense if you if you take those reforms as historical

40:50but some other scholars came in and said usually when you destroy a cult site and you don't want

40:57worship to go on there you actually destroy the implements of worship you destroy the divine images

41:06yeah you don't just gently lay them on their side and cover them up in soil you stay there

41:12don't don't you don't look at around anymore good night sweet prince um and so the like and we see

41:20another uh one of the other temples i'll talk about there's an example of a divine image that was

41:25broken and then the broken pieces were incorporated into the wall and so that that sound that's more

41:33like what you do when you are destroying somebody's uh uh uh implements of worship but here they were

41:40they um just were like oh go down and um and one theory is that this was actually hezekiah hiding

41:49the cult site because sennacheribs because this is far in the south sennacherib starts in the north

41:56and comes south doesn't make it all the way to the southern desert to the negev but um one theory

42:03is that uh hezekiah was like oh uh let's he's destroying cult sites let's uh decommission it

42:10let's dismantle things let's cover it up and maybe he will pass it by put up a sign that says drive in

42:17movie or something yeah throw them off the scent yeah ain't no divine images in here um and uh and

42:25then for whatever reason it was just never uh recovered another theory is that it was sennacherib

42:33who came through and was like uh bye bye temple and just was like uh just do a quick what have you

42:39got to do and they were just okay and they just dumped a bunch of earth on it and and patted it down

42:44and and we're like all right moving on so a few different possibilities what has happened to this

42:50temple but we just we found a bunch of fascinating stuff that corresponds in many ways with the way

42:57that temple worship in jerusalem is described you know the the construction of the tabernacle what

43:02kind of implements are being used and some of the um the implements that were discovered at this

43:07temple in a rod even had a little um a a letter called a a cove and then a cough uh which scratched

43:18into the corners of these of these like dishes and and this would have meant um kodesh the kohanim

43:26or sanctified consecrated for the priests in other words marking this as temple gear you're not allowed

43:34to use these dishes these are for uh the priests in the temple um which is you know if you look in

43:41exodus you have uh the same thing was like supposed to be written on the the headdress of the high

43:48priest and things like that so it's close it's following very closely on the way that's worship

43:55and temple worship is prescribed in the bible but it's not the jerusalem temple it's an entirely

44:01separate temple where they worshiped adonai the god of israel with divine images specifically

44:07a standing stone uh which is in the in the hebrew bible if you look in the old testament it will

44:13call him a pillar that's amazebah the plural is matzavotes that's a standing stone that's what we

44:19have there and then about less than ten years ago there was another one of these discovered uh in

44:28just a little northwest of jerusalem if you take the main highway heading west out of the north end

44:33of jerusalem there's a part where you come around the top of some hills and you go down a little valley

44:39and and then the freeway goes back up the other side of the valley and at the bottom of that valley

44:45under the freeway uh they whenever they're uh need to build something they always have to in israel

44:51they always in palestine they always go in and do a little excavation right just to see if there's

44:56anything that needs to be preserved and uh doing this they were like oh son of a all right fine

45:02normally they go okay do what you got to do but you got six months and then we're the bulldozers are

45:08are um um turn it on um and they discovered a temple and it's a place they call it telmontsah

45:16but it is same kind of story it is a uh first temple period temple uh and they discovered uh

45:25they didn't discover the holy of holies as far as i know they have not uncovered a holy of holies

45:29that's discernible that has a bunch of stuff in it but they did discover some pits where they

45:34through discarded or maybe um not yet discarded um implements and instruments and objects so there

45:43are a bunch of um little clay figurines and things like that they have figurines of horses uh and and

45:51human heads and some of them have headdresses on them that make some archaeologists think this

45:57might be a deity of some kind uh and they this is where they found uh one a what looks like a standing

46:05stone and the only part of it that we found is broken off and it shows two two legs with some

46:11feet sticking in the same direction but this looks very close to the smiting pose that the

46:19Semitic storm deity would be represented in so somebody like ball or out on eye right uh is was

46:27at one point probably represented on a standing stone and we have other standing stones that have

46:31ball represented in this way in the smiting pose which means usually turn sideways kind of that

46:36Egyptian both feet pointed in the same direction and then they have one hand up where they're holding

46:41a mace or something like that um but about about to smite somebody yeah we're um got the got my

46:49smiting pants on and um and it was broken and just used as um raw material for building part of

46:58the wall of the temple oh wow they they found it upside down and broken and you know basically

47:04mortared into uh the wall of the temple uh so there's they're still trying to figure out exactly

47:09what was going on in this temple but this was uh like this is closer to Jerusalem than Bethelheim

47:16is if i if if i recall correctly if my spatial memory is uh is accurate and this would have been

47:22active at the same time that the first temple was active in Jerusalem so there's no way that thing

47:27was operative without Jerusalem's approval right and this would have been around the time period

47:32of Hezekiah i think you know i just googled the Talmotsah temple uh and i think the most

47:38impressive part about it i don't know how those ancient Hebrews were able to build that giant

47:45freeway over time but that's really that's a powerful that's that's really uh impressive so

47:51the it is interesting like literally like they clearly they just raised up the freeway and just

47:56built right over it yeah yeah and um the initial excavations took place before they the freeway was

48:03there which is why you'll see some aerial photography uh of the temple and and uh you know outlines of

48:08the wall and everything like that and and uh some pillars out front so again very much in the style

48:13of the Jerusalem temple but uh they were like hey we gotta get this highway in and so they were

48:18like just build it over top yeah and uh and so now you gotta you gotta exit the highway i have not

48:23been to this temple i hope at some point to visit that uh that temple i hope at some point for things

48:28to calm down enough so that it is um it is appropriate to uh to visit right and um there is not uh so

48:37much threat to people's lives there but uh the the excavations are ongoing uh and so yeah this is

48:45this is another datum that kind of complicates the narrative that you shared earlier that everybody

48:52just knew there was one temple there was one nation there was one god um it doesn't seem like that

48:58was the case until uh we have initially sennacherib kind of forcing upon people this defacto cult

49:06centralization and in my opinion the next two kings were probably like all right let's get back to

49:12to worship and all over the place and then Josiah was looked around and kind of went i don't know i

49:17kind of like uh everybody having to come down here to uh to my neck of the woods to bring money

49:23and to bring goods and to bring offerings um you know it kind of rings my bell so um hey maybe we

49:29should discover a book yeah and and by the way most scholars think that this story is a pretense

49:36for the introduction of the book of deuteronomy at least a very early stage of the book of deuteronomy

49:43if not the earliest layer one of the early layers that is then later added on to and supplemented

49:49by the generations that came after okay well since you say that now i've got to help have you walk

49:55me through uh a little timeline here because obviously deuteronomy takes deuteronomy in the book

50:01precedes uh second kings yeah by by like seven hundred years

50:11yeah so i so when a i also want to know when was second kings written like how long after

50:19Josiah's reign was second kings written like how how long of a how how backward looking was this

50:27and then and then yeah where does deuteronomy fit into that why why is deuteronomy suddenly

50:35so the the books of samuel and kings are probably cobbled together from uh the royal annals that

50:44were being kept um from probably the ninth or eighth century bce down but there were editors

50:53who were gathering things together and so the books of samuel and kings are probably um mainly

51:00deuteronomistic meaning it was probably the scribal uh school that was associated with

51:08the development of Josiah's propaganda that began to gather these annals together and string them

51:15together in this narrative that talks about the northern kingdom and the northern kingdom fell

51:21and they were wicked and then there was righteous hezekiah and then there was badman nasa and bad

51:26amin and then there were super righteous Josiah and so uh they're probably coming shortly after

51:32and they're telling stories about what happened before but telling those stories in a way that

51:36makes the northern kingdom out to be the bad guys and make any and that makes any king that

51:42supported worship of other deities like ashera supported worship at other temples supported

51:49uh worship using inappropriate uh methods or or instruments they're the bad guys and then all the

51:55kings that were supported or um maybe anticipated Josiah's reforms they were the good guys which was

52:02mainly hezekiah and Josiah okay so the folks who are responsible for putting together samuel and

52:08kings are probably also responsible for bringing together the early stages of deuteronomy but that

52:16was being supplemented and added onto and redacted and edited probably for another 200 years after

52:23Josiah died uh before things were brought together with the priestly layer and other non-priestly

52:31material so it's it's phenomenally complex there's a wonderful book by uh thomas romere

52:36called the so-called deuteronomistic history that i believe was published in 2009 or 2010

52:42that no it would have to be 2008 or 2009 because i read it when i was at oxford in 2009 and 2010

52:48but um it was that that's a wonderful discussion of how people think the the deuteronomistic history

52:54which includes books of samuel and kings came together okay well there you go i i find this all

53:02uh fascinating i love it i think it's interesting um and you and i are gonna

53:11i i might have you talk me through a couple more things in in the uh in the after party

53:18okay for our patrons because i i'm still in the weeds about a few things about what deuteronomistic

53:24actually is referring to what that means uh right but i am going to inflict that on our patrons um so

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