Ep 87: The Dans Ruin Christmas

00:00I think it's just vibes, you know, so here it is the Lamb of God, so you've got to have

00:08some shepherds come by and go, "Yep, that's the Lamb of God."

00:12Well, there's your problem right there, you left him in the manger.

00:17Wait, you can take him out of the manger?

00:22Hey, everybody, I'm Dan McClellan and I'm Dan Beecher and you're listening to The

00:30Data Over Dogma podcast where we increase public access to the academic study of the

00:34Bible and religion and we combat the spread of misinformation about the same.

00:40How are things today, Dan?

00:41Oh, it's the most wonderful time of the year.

00:45It's getting to be dead.

00:46Or so the song says, "Not technically for us in our actual timeline, but for the people

00:52hearing this, by the time this gets out to the world, it will be officially Christmas

00:58time."

00:59So the radio stations here in Utah have been playing Christmas music for a few weeks now.

01:05And I just received a package or probably my wife received a package with a bunch of

01:12candy cane shaped throw pillows, so colored and shaped throw pillows.

01:18So yes, it is definitely that time and it's not even Thanksgiving yet.

01:24Yeah.

01:25Although, by the time you're hearing this, it obviously has been Thanksgiving.

01:29If you're Canadian, it was Thanksgiving like a year and a half ago, so, you know, that's

01:33it.

01:34But yes, we thought this is one of those rare moments where you and I, Dan, the two guys,

01:41the two overburdened with ADHD guys actually planned ahead enough to get a Christmas thing

01:48to happen before Christmas.

01:50So I'm very proud of us because we work for Halloween.

01:53But gosh darn it.

01:57Every now and then we can make it happen and for four weeks ahead of plan or whatever.

02:01But I will say this, this is a good one.

02:04I have a hunch.

02:06This is going to be a very shareable episode just because we are looking down on all the

02:13who's in whoville and planning to Grinch this thing to death.

02:18We're going to ruin Christmas.

02:20Yeah, it's the goal.

02:25So why don't why don't we launch in?

02:28It's just one one subject today.

02:31Let's just launch in and sort of let's start with maybe a because we're just talking about,

02:38you know, the nativity, right?

02:40The birth of Jesus.

02:42Why don't you start by giving us an overview overview of a 35,000 foot look at what we're

02:49going to be diving into?

02:51Yeah, because the turbulence I might bring it up to 37 or 39,000 feet.

02:55But but yeah, in short, we're looking at the accounts in in Matthew, the end of chapter

03:01one, the beginning of chapter two.

03:03And then we're looking at the accounts in Luke and Luke's is much larger.

03:08And this is where we get most of the traditions that are associated with what we think of

03:13as the nativity.

03:15And actually these two accounts and then we'll talk a little bit about it when we get to

03:20these details.

03:21But some of the things that people associate with the nativity, for instance, Mary writing

03:24on a donkey, Jesus being born in a cave, Joseph being really old, traditions like that.

03:33If you associate them with the nativity, that actually comes from a a pseudopographic text

03:38called the proto evangelium of James or the proto gospel of James.

03:42We can talk about that later.

03:43Yeah, we have we have Jesus who probably was born in Nazareth, at least the tradition has

03:51Jesus being of Nazareth, but he's got to be born in Bethlehem if he's going to be if he's

03:58going to be the Messiah.

04:00And so the earliest gospel mark and certainly the earliest writings in the New Testament

04:05Paul never talk about Jesus's birth at all, right, because it probably just wasn't relevant

04:12until questions began to arise.

04:15As the tradition is circulating, people were like, well, but where did he where was he

04:19born?

04:20Because it says the Messiah is supposed to be born over here.

04:23And so we don't have nativity accounts in the earliest gospel.

04:27They're in Matthew and Luke.

04:29And traditionally, people think of Matthew and Luke as the middle two gospels.

04:32Mark is the first and John is the last, but Luke might be the last and the two chapters

04:40that cover the nativity might even be secondary additions to Luke.

04:44So these are these are traditions that are being added quite late to the tradition that

04:49are trying to cover this gap in where Jesus came from and say Jesus was from Bethlehem

04:55because that's where the Messiah was supposed to be from.

04:58Yeah.

04:59And so nothing else.

05:00It explains why the Luke story is so much better and longer and more fun than the than

05:07the Matthew story.

05:08They've had a lot of time to revise and edit and everything that their deadlines were

05:13a lot a lot softer than Matthew's.

05:17Yeah.

05:19And John doesn't cover it either, does he?

05:21Well, John decides to so you've got kind of a trajectory.

05:25So you've got kind of a trajectory where Mark starts with the baptism and then Matthew

05:30and Luke are like, we're going to go back to his birth and John's like screw you guys.

05:34I'm going back to the beginning of creation.

05:37And so the the scope of Jesus's mission and identity and everything keep getting pushed

05:44further back until yeah, John is like beginning of time and then yeah, just skips over what

05:54happened with with Jesus's mom and dad and then and Herod.

05:59So yeah.

06:01So we're going to we're going to I think we're going to start in Matthew and then we'll move

06:03on to Luke.

06:04Yeah.

06:05All right.

06:06I went through and just sort of bullet pointed, I just read the both accounts and I got it.

06:14You got to say like as as we go through this, one of the things that's going to become very

06:19apparent and I don't know why, you know, growing up when I heard this story, when this story

06:25was told to me, when I would go downtown Salt Lake City to the the Mormon Temple Square,

06:32which at that time, every year they would do this, they would light all the trees and

06:36light up all of the Temple Square.

06:39So it was pretty to walk through and you'd go there at night in the cold and everybody

06:44would bundle up.

06:45And then on one of the lawns, they had this sort of, they had these life sized plastic

06:53image people, uh, stativity, yeah.

06:57And so, you know, you'd have the, you'd have shepherds over here and you'd have wise men

07:02over here on camels and you'd have, you know, the, the manger and whatever.

07:07And the thing, you know, they would a recording and I know the actor, I actually worked with

07:12the actor who did the voice over for the recording.

07:15Nice.

07:16Robert Peterson's voice would come over and read these passages to you from the Bible.

07:22And you know, the, the different parts would light up as, as they talk and I, I think most

07:28of us could be forgiven for re for not realizing these are two totally different stories that

07:35are just completely unrelated to each other.

07:40Yeah.

07:41Yeah.

07:42There's, there's a frequently a harmonization that goes on and you got to try and squeeze

07:46the different parts in together to tell the story.

07:48Uh, so, you know, when you're, when everybody gathers around and, uh, and daddy reads the

07:53nativity, it's, it's a mashup.

07:55It's, it's not, uh, either one of these stories, but it's an attempt to try to make them, uh,

08:01one in the same narrative and they're not, uh, as we're going to discover.

08:05Yeah.

08:06I mean, it makes sense to want to harmonize them.

08:08Like that, like, yes, you're getting, you, you, you, like, if you want this to be true,

08:14then you got to harmonize them because they don't relate to each other, but, but we'll,

08:19we'll get to that.

08:20We'll get to that.

08:21I'll, let's just start with, uh, with Matthew in chapter one, um, one through 17 versus one

08:27through 17 is just genealogy connecting Joseph to David.

08:33Yes.

08:34Um, so, so we'll just skip all of that, uh, because there's nothing more boring in the

08:39Bible than the big gas, all of the big ads are the worst thing in the world, uh, then

08:44you get to the birth of Jesus and that is, uh, so Joseph and Mary are, and help me out

08:51with this.

08:52Uh, you know, I, I grew up with the, uh, the King James.

08:57It said that they were betrothed and RSVUE has it as engaged, but then, uh, but then a

09:05few sentences later, Joseph is going to divorce her.

09:10So what, what is the state of their relationship at the beginning of this?

09:16So, uh, betrothal in, in the ancient world, betrothal would frequently happen when, when

09:21a woman reached puberty shortly after 12, 13, 14, somewhere around there.

09:26And, uh, for arranged marriages, uh, not all marriages were arranged if, if they weren't

09:31arranged, it might happen later, but basically this was a contract.

09:36And for all intents and purposes, they're married.

09:39So, um, if you, if you wanted to break up a betrothal, that was a divorce.

09:45If a man, uh, passed away during betrothal before consummation of the marriage, that

09:51woman was now considered a widow.

09:53So, uh, so for all intents and purposes, they are married, uh, they haven't performed

09:59in the ceremony, they haven't consummated the marriage.

10:02Uh, so there is another stage to it, but they're considered married.

10:07And this is why, for instance, in Deuteronomy 22, where we have the, the legislation about

10:11what, uh, what's to be done when, uh, you know, a man is discovered committing adultery

10:17or something and you gotta, you know, they both get killed.

10:19And then there's a question of, uh, a virgin who is betrothed.

10:24And the penalty is the exact same as, as a woman who's not a virgin anymore who's married.

10:29Okay.

10:30Gotta kill them both.

10:31Uh, and then it's only someone who is un-betrothed who is considered not married.

10:36So, so yeah, this is, for all intents and purposes, they were married, uh, even though they,

10:41they had not sealed, uh, the deal, so to speak.

10:45Well, and that is in, in other stories, that would be less important in this story.

10:50That's a very important point that they have not sealed the deal.

10:54Uh, everybody, everybody knows this, uh, in this story, Mary just gets pregnant.

10:59And Joseph, gentleman that he is, decides he's going to quietly divorce her and not,

11:06and not scream to the high heavens about how she is, uh, I don't know, deserving of being

11:13murdered, maybe?

11:14I don't know what happens to a woman who gets pregnant and it's not her husband's

11:19baby.

11:20And if we go back to, uh, Deuteronomy 22, a few verses earlier, if a man, um, comes

11:26together and accuses his new wife of not being a virgin, uh, then she's supposed to be stoned.

11:33So it was capital punishment, but by this time period, one, they did not have authorization

11:39to, um, engage willy-nilly in capital punishment.

11:43And so, uh, that wasn't allowed.

11:45And so basically divorce was what was supposed to happen and then she's, she then becomes

11:51a divorced woman.

11:53So, uh, he's, he's planning on that, but an angel appears to Joseph in the dream and

11:59says, go ahead and marry her.

12:02She conceived of the spirit, uh, which that's got to be weird to hear.

12:07Yeah.

12:08There's a lot, it's a, that is a pregnant statement, uh, which itself is a pregnant statement.

12:14But, um, yeah, it is, there's a lot of people have read an awful lot of stuff and knew exactly

12:21what it means to, uh, to be with child from the Holy spirit, but, um, yeah, the, the authors

12:27probably were not, uh, we're not concerned with those details.

12:32Nope.

12:33Nope.

12:34There's a lot of stuff that's thrown into these things that's like, you know that there's

12:38going to be centuries of parsing that happens afterwards and somebody was just like, I'll

12:42just write it this way.

12:43None.

12:44No problem.

12:45Right.

12:46Exactly.

12:47Enjoy that.

12:48Scholars a thousand years from now, um, or 2000, uh, she will, she will bury you a son

12:55and you will name him Jesus, uh, quote, for he will save his people from their sins.

13:00Is that what Jesus means?

13:01Um, so Jesus is, uh, our transliteration of the Latin transliteration of the Greek transliteration

13:08of the Aramaic name Yeshua or Yeshua as it's written, uh, in, uh, the Hebrew Bible.

13:17And this is a contraction of Yeshua, which means Adonai saves.

13:23And so Yeshua probably means it is also the Aramaic word for salvation.

13:29So it's either salvation or Adonai saves.

13:33And then there's this moment which I will also need some help with, um, where the angel

13:39in the dream, this is dream angel says that, uh, that this is going to fulfill a prophecy.

13:46He's just said you're going to name the kid Jesus and then says this is going to fulfill

13:50a prophecy about a virgin becoming pregnant and quotes that prophecy and that, and the

13:56quote is, and they shall name him Immanuel, which means God is with us.

14:02Yes.

14:03So, oh, lots of stuff going on in this quotation.

14:06There's so much happening.

14:08Yeah.

14:09Yeah.

14:10Not, not, at least of which is you just said name him Jesus.

14:14How does that fulfill a prophecy of him being named Immanuel?

14:18Well, this is being slotted in here for a very specific purpose.

14:23So this is, uh, Isaiah 714, but specifically from the ancient Greek translation of Isaiah

14:29714, so the Septuagint, uh, and in, in the Hebrew, it says, look, a young woman has become

14:38pregnant and will give birth to a son and she will call him Immanuel.

14:48So what's going on here is we've made some changes.

14:51Young woman Alma in Hebrew has been changed or has been translated into Greek, uh, as

14:57parthenos, which usually more explicitly refers to biological virginity as if there were a

15:04biological virginity.

15:05There's not, but, uh, to virginity as we think of it, uh, that's not always the case.

15:10Uh, for instance, in the Septuagint, the ancient Greek translation again, uh, in the story

15:15of, uh, the rape of Dina, she is referred to as a parthenos afterwards.

15:22So it's not incredibly strict and there's a wonderful, uh, paper by a friend of mine

15:28named Rodrigo Jesusa, uh, that talks about whether or not the, the rendering is the theologically

15:34motivated.

15:36But anyway, uh, Matthew has to appeal to the Septuagint because that's the only way that

15:41this has anything to do with a woman being a virgin.

15:43Uh, so it's, it's this, this translation gives him, uh, the out to, to be like, Oh yeah, check

15:50it out.

15:51It's a virgin.

15:52It's divine.

15:53It's, it's a miracle.

15:54All this stuff.

15:55And then is it likely that the Septuagint is the only version that the author of the gospel

16:01of Matthew knows it's the one that's being appealed to here.

16:06A lot of people think Matthew would have understood enough Hebrew to know that the, the Hebrew

16:11is different, but, uh, but there are places where Matthew will fiddle with the prophecies

16:18in order to make them fit his rhetorical goals.

16:22Uh, and this is just one example we've talked before about, for instance, a triumphal entry

16:26where Matthew was like two animals at the same time.

16:29All right.

16:30Whatever.

16:31It has.

16:32It works for me.

16:33Yeah.

16:34So, um, so whether or not Matthew knows the Hebrew is different.

16:37Matthew is appealing to the Greek, um, and then it says in the Greek also says shall become

16:42pregnant.

16:43The Hebrew, um, most scholars agree, uh, means has become pregnant and then, uh, and then

16:50in the Greek here, it says they shall name him a manual.

16:52This is actually changed from the Septuagint because the, the Septuagint, uh, says you

16:59will name him a man either you or he, uh, it's, I'm going from memory, but, um, it's changed

17:07to they will name him a manual, which is probably the author recognizing that Joseph is going

17:14to name him Jesus.

17:16So other folks are going to call him a manual.

17:20So, uh, and what I, what I think is going on here is this is a little bit of foreshadowing,

17:25shadowing, not shattering, um, what the, uh, the angel is like, yes, um, people you don't

17:33know yet, uh, the, the, uh, the mythical they are going to refer to him as a manual, meaning

17:39God is with us.

17:40In other words, other people are going to recognize that Jesus bears, uh, God's presence and brings,

17:46um, God's presence among them.

17:49And so it's kind of a recognition of the, his future mission, um, in, in my opinion, there

17:56are scholars who account for it in different ways, but the fact that the, the author changes

18:00it to say, they shall call him a manual.

18:03Uh, I think pretty clearly indicates, uh, this is intended to prophesy about people,

18:09other people recognizing Jesus's mission.

18:15It's such a weird, uh, this is not the first time, by the way.

18:19There are many times, especially in Matthew where it overtly says this happened and that

18:27is a fulfillment of this prophecy.

18:30And so it, it's, it's, it's almost, it's, it's very clearly like Matthew is going through

18:36the motions of like, and I, you know, here's this part.

18:41Now, now you guys can just know that that part, that prophecy was fulfilled.

18:45It was just ticking boxes.

18:47Yeah.

18:48As he goes through.

18:49He's going to be like, and then this happened and I bet you can guess why this happened.

18:53So that the prophecy could be fulfilled.

18:57Yeah.

18:58So, yeah, let's go along from there.

19:00Yeah.

19:01So we move on to chapter two and this is where, uh, the Magi come one, one more thing real

19:06quick.

19:07Sorry to interrupt, particularly if we've got some lag today, um, the chapter ends with,

19:13uh, verse 25 saying, but he had no marital relations with her until she had given birth

19:19to a son and he named him Jesus, uh, indicating that, um, there had not been the, um, the

19:27taint of sexual intercourse anywhere associated with, with, uh, with Jesus's gestation, uh,

19:34or birth.

19:35Uh, so he was free and clear of that territory by the time Joseph, um, arrived.

19:42And uh, there's a, and, and this kind of makes it difficult to argue that Mary maintained

19:47perpetual virginity as well.

19:49Um, but there, there are folks who are like, Hey, just cause it said he didn't have marital

19:53relations until he was born doesn't mean he had marital relations after he was born.

19:59Just like when I say, yeah, I didn't eat dinner until after I got home from work doesn't mean

20:02I never had dinner ever again.

20:05It just means it happened after I got home from work, but yeah, it could mean you never

20:09had dinner again.

20:11It's not impossible.

20:12Yeah.

20:13We know what that's all about chapter two.

20:17We've got the Magi, uh, who come in, we, we did a whole cool episode of that last year.

20:22Go have go back and look that up if you want to, um, the Magi who we know are not three

20:30men, uh, but an undetermined number of men and, uh, and frankly when, when you see how

20:38they behave, I don't think we can call them wise men either, uh, because they, they just

20:43come barging into town, yelling, Hey, where's the kid that's going to be the king of the

20:48Jews, which does not hit, uh, the king of the Jews very well, uh, Herod is not happy

20:55about that.

20:56Oh, do you mean me?

20:58Oh, you don't mean me?

21:00What are you talking about?

21:02Are you talking about my son?

21:03You better be talking about my son.

21:05He's, uh, I'm not, um, by the way, we are very clearly in Bethlehem.

21:11There is no mention of Nazareth anywhere here.

21:14None, vassa, ever, yes, uh, okay.

21:17So, um, and also this is after Jesus has been born, but no mention of Jesus's birth or how

21:24long this is after the birth, um, Herod becomes furious, um, brings Magi in to trick them into,

21:32uh, you know, go find him and then come back and tell me where he is so that I can pay

21:37homage to him too.

21:39Uh, they follow a star, which as I read it, it was very clear to me that the star moved

21:46and physically stopped directly over the house where they're supposed to find Jesus.

21:52Yes.

21:53Um, it's not just in the sky in a read, you know, guiding them in the direction.

21:59It's like, it's like follow the bouncing ball sort of thing.

22:03Yeah.

22:04Um, so they get to the house, they pay homage, they give the gifts, uh, and then they scurry

22:09off out of the country going a different way than they came in so that they wouldn't get

22:14stopped by Herod again, uh, because they had a whole dream about, uh, about Herod being

22:20a being ready to do some damage.

22:24Yeah.

22:25And then Joseph has another dream, he's visited by his dream angel again who says, um, Herod's

22:33going to kill you guys.

22:34You have to run away to Egypt, yes, which is interesting because that is also very much

22:41just in this narrative, nothing to do with the Luke narrative.

22:47There's no mention that Egypt anywhere around that.

22:50And it's precisely because Matthew found another prophecy that he was like, I bet I can get

22:54that into the story, but I'm going to, I'm going to get it in there.

22:58Um, and so has them go to Egypt.

23:01This was to fulfill what had been spoken by the Lord through the prophet out of Egypt.

23:06I have called my son.

23:07Yeah.

23:08So, um, so that's the, it is, it is the desire to have Jesus fulfilling all these messianic

23:16prophecies that is driving the narrative, uh, and unlike what we have in Luke, Luke is,

23:22very different. And then, uh, what happens while they are so journey in Egypt, uh, Herod

23:29dies, uh, with, oh, well, here, first of all, here at first, Herod kills all the kids in

23:36and around Bethlehem to an under.

23:39So yeah, pretty horrific and also an event which you would think would merit, uh, being

23:47told in other places.

23:49Yeah.

23:50It's like this guy, he just lost it and killed all the babies that were under two. That would

23:57have, that would have, uh, merited some mention by somebody like Josephus might have had something

24:03to say about that moment.

24:06And, um, it says in verse 16, he's sending killed all the children in and around Bethlehem

24:10who were two years old or under, according to the time that he had learned from the Magi,

24:15which suggests that this is, um, within two years from Jesus's birth. So, uh, as much

24:22as two years is from there, yeah, which among other things means that this, that Jesus would

24:28have been born at least, or, um, as much as two years before, Herod was dead. In other

24:36words, that would have needed to be around six to four BCE somewhere in there.

24:42Okay. Right. So we got, we now, oh great. Now you've ruined our whole calendar. Thank

24:48you so much for that. If, if nothing else, that is a good reason to use CE and BC as opposed

24:57to AD.

24:58Yeah. It's not accurate. Yeah. They, they didn't have a, they didn't have a Y zero, uh, countdown.

25:03Right. That we're like, this is going to screw up all of our computers. The whole economy

25:08is going to come crashing down. We better have a census. Um, okay. Uh, uh, we're, don't

25:15get to censuses yet. We're going to get to censuses. Uh, but yes, Herod dies, uh, eventually

25:22while they're in Egypt. Uh, so they feel like they can come back from Egypt, but they didn't

25:27go back to Bethlehem. They went to da, da, da, da, Nazareth. Yes. And that fulfills the

25:33prophecy that he will be called the Nazarene, which is not a prophecy. Uh, it's not, isn't

25:39there's no part of the, so this, this is usually put in quotation marks. He will be called a

25:44Nazarene. Right. Um, there's nothing anywhere in the Hebrew Bible that says that. So other

25:50people are like, Oh, it's not direct speech. It's, it's, um, you know, just a paraphrase.

25:57Well there's nothing about the Messiah being from Nazareth. But what a lot of people do

26:03is they'll point to Isaiah 11 one where, uh, it says there's a root will come forth out

26:08of Jesse or something like that. And, uh, the word for root there is nets there in Hebrew.

26:14And so they're like, if you squint at that, you could say, maybe he's from Nazareth.

26:22Therefore, uh, the prophet said he will be called a Nazarene. It's either that or there's

26:28something that we have lost that there was a, uh, there was a prophecy that we've lost

26:33or Matthew was just making it up. Or Matthew was, he was so used to sandwiches to wedging

26:39in like prophecies that he just threw in one of his own. Why not? Well, and this is one

26:44of the, this is one of the reasons that I think, um, critical scholars would agree that the

26:48historical Jesus probably came from Nazareth and was known to come from Nazareth. When it

26:53comes to Egypt, Matthew is like, Oh, um, you know, stretching, he's cracking his knuckles,

26:58uh, knuckles like check out what I'm going to do. But here, because he wants to fulfill

27:03the prophecies here, he kind of has to bend the, the Hebrew Bible a little bit to fit

27:09what sounds like everybody knows about Jesus. He can make up Egypt. He can't make up Nazareth.

27:16Nazareth has to be there. And so whereas elsewhere, the prophecies are driving narrative here,

27:21the history is driving his representation of prophecy. I guess that makes sense. Is there,

27:27there must be then a prophecy that says that the Messiah will come out of Bethlehem. Is

27:32that we skipped over it? Um, back at, uh, in verse six of chapter two, um, they told him

27:39in Bethlehem of Judea for so it has been written by the prophet and you Bethlehem in the land

27:44of Judah are by no means least among the rulers of Judah for from you shall come a ruler who

27:48is to shepherd my people Israel. Okay. So, um, that is what in that time period had been

27:55interpreted as a messianic prophecy about the Messiah coming from Bethlehem. So really

28:00the, the Nazareth thing to get, getting him to Nazareth is just a matter of like explaining

28:05why this kid from Bethlehem is known as the Nazarene guy. Yeah. So it's basically like,

28:12okay, we had our fun, but now we have to tie it into what everybody already knows about

28:17history. And so I got to get him, we got to get him to Nazareth. Um, and, and you'll notice

28:22the text shares absolutely no indication whatsoever that they ever lived in Nazareth. They're like,

28:28all right, we're coming back from Egypt and God is like, uh, go over there. Oh, okay. And,

28:34and so they show up in Nazareth and it makes it's, according to Matthew, if you only had

28:38Matthew, Jesus had never been in Nazareth before. And his family, his family was, wasn't planning

28:45on going there. They were just like, God told us to come here. All right. Well, and he's,

28:49he's not grown, but he's this is years after his birth that were there. Yes. So depending

28:56on when you date it, uh, if, uh, it's after Herod's died. So it's after four BCE. So he's

29:02anywhere from one to three, maybe four years old at this point. Yeah. Okay. And the, oh,

29:10just, just so that I looked this up just to paint a picture for, for those of you who are

29:15curious. Nazareth is about like 90 miles north of Bethlehem. Um, and Bethlehem is, is just

29:23outside of Jerusalem. It's just a little, a little south of, of Jerusalem. Now it's like

29:29a suburb of Jerusalem back then. It would have been, um, separate from Jerusalem. It's

29:35a good. It's a long walk though. It's a, it's a hike. Yeah. It's through some very hilly

29:41country apparently is what I was seeing on the map. Yeah. And Nazareth is in a, it's in

29:45a little bowl, uh, between, uh, between some mountains. Um, it's quite large city now, but

29:51at the time it would have been a tiny little hamlet. So, um, there wouldn't have been much

29:56going on there. Yeah. But the, it's right at the kind of, uh, northern center of the

30:03Jezreel Valley. Beautiful area near the, near the pond of Galilee. Uh, yeah. It's a bit,

30:13it's a bit of a hike to the sea of Galilee, but it is near it. Yeah. I will not call it

30:17a sea. I've seen how small it is. It is not a sea. All right. Uh, let's go, let's move

30:23on then now to Luke, uh, that's, that's basically the end of the, of the birth of Jesus story

30:31in Matthew. So Luke tells a very different story. Um, starting with, and I'm just going

30:40to start. Don't you get ahead of me now, Dan, I'm going to start with, uh, dream in chapter

30:46one, an angel appears to say, do not be afraid for your prayer has been heard. Your wife

30:53will bear you a son and you will name him John the Baptist. That's right. The first part

31:00is, uh, all about John and, and Elizabeth and, uh, Zachariah and nothing to do with Jesus.

31:07Yes. Um, so just like with Jesus, uh, everybody had to one up the story before and be like,

31:13well, yeah, well, what about his birth? What about the beginning of time, Matthew? What

31:18about then? Um, and here they're doing the same thing with John the Baptist because now

31:23it's like, oh, we got to go back to, uh, to John the Baptist birth, uh, which is all miraculous

31:28and everything as well. Yeah. And very, very reflective of the Jesus narrative as well,

31:35which is, uh, which is very interesting. Well, and it's probably because there were a bunch

31:39of people, uh, and we talked with my friend James McGrath about John the Baptist. It's

31:43probably because a bunch of people are like, Jesus was a subordinate to John. And now

31:48they're like, Oh, but wait till you hear this before John was even conceived. They were

31:54like, he's number two. Um, he's the runner up. He's just, but he was really, really important.

32:01So there's angels telling them that, that, that he's coming to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So

32:06he was special. You got that right, but he was always number two. Uh, so after all of

32:12that happens to Elizabeth where, uh, you know, and, and Zachariah, where they're an angel

32:18comes and tells them about their kid and all this other stuff. Mm hmm. Then we get to Joseph

32:23and Mary and a, and an angel appears to Mary, not to Joseph. And this isn't in a dream and

32:32the angel has a name and that name is Gabriel. Yeah. So Gabriel is sent to Nazareth because

32:41Mary and Joseph are in Nazareth. That's what it tells Mary that God is pleased with her.

32:47And so she's going to bear a son and she's, you're going to name him Jesus. Uh, and he

32:53will be great and will be called the son of the most high and the Lord God will give him

32:59the throne of his ancestor David and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever. And

33:05of his kingdom, there will be no end. Which by the way, I, I feel like him saying he, you

33:12know, he will get the throne of his ancestor David. He doesn't get that. Like, like maybe

33:18metaphorically, but it sounds like what he's saying is you're going to be the, the king

33:25of the Jews. Yeah. And that, that doesn't seem to happen in the story. Does it? Yeah.

33:30Like, no, this is what everybody's been waiting for. Everybody has been waiting for this

33:35deliverer to come and to whoop the Romans and drive them out so that they can reestablish

33:41their kingdom, which is what the Maccabees did. Uh, you know, a hundred and 60 years

33:47before with the salutesids and Antiochus, the fourth epiphany. So that's what they're

33:51anticipating. Right. Gabriel kind of Gabriel is, is kind of like, yeah, yeah, that's what's

33:56going to happen. Yeah, that's filling them with false hope when he was like, no, this,

34:04this was all a spiritual, uh, throne, you know, not a, not a physical actual literal throne.

34:13Um, one could imagine, uh, a conversation between God and Gabriel afterwards where God

34:19says, you told them what? Why? Why did you say that? Anyway, yeah, or at Jesus's crucifixion

34:26Mary is like, wait a minute. Hang on. I wrote this down. Uh, I still have it in my scrap

34:34book. It's in the garage. Yeah. Oh man. So anyway, uh, moving on, Mary goes and visits

34:40her, her cousin, her, her relative Elizabeth. Yes. And, uh, and little baby John, who's

34:48about six months old, or six months just stated in Elizabeth's womb kicks. And so that's why

34:55abortion isn't legal. Um, uh, and then post post quickening, by the way, uh, movement on

35:04the part of John, the Baptist. And, uh, and so yeah. Anyway, there you go. Uh, Mary sings

35:10a song, uh, which I am led to believe is called the Magnificat. The Magnificat. Yes. This is a,

35:17this is another mashup of praise coming from the Psalms and stuff like that. Right. Uh,

35:23and then there's a bunch more stuff about John the Baptist that we don't care about.

35:27Uh, so then let's move on to chapter two. Yeah. Uh, and here's one of my favorite bits

35:33in all of this, the weird census where they say everybody leave where you are and go to

35:41where you're from, which yeah, to my knowledge has not been how any census has ever worked

35:48ever and couldn't possibly work and is crazy. Uh, and your knowledge is accurate. They're,

35:55uh, they, like they, they wanted people to be where they lived and worked because they

36:00needed to know how many, uh, how much to charge in taxes and they needed it to be accurate.

36:05And if they're like, everybody go to your ancestral homestead, not only do you nuke the

36:10economy, right, but a lot of people are going to leave your jurisdiction. And then you're

36:18going to have utterly useless data. It's like, why are your taxes so low? There were supposed

36:23to be a million people living in your city. And you're like, no, there were just a million

36:26people who came ancestrally from the city. Um, like it would be utterly useless. And there

36:34are apologists who are like, well, no, there was this, there was a census from a hundred

36:38and fifteen, uh, BCE in Egypt or CE, I forget which one it is where, where the instructions

36:46were for everybody to return to their hearth. Um, and they think that means your ancestral

36:52homestead and it 100% does not. It quite literally and explicitly means if you're out traveling

36:59for work, go home so you can be, uh, you can register for the census at your home where

37:07you live. Yeah. Um, yeah, not where you're great granddaddy said you were from. Right.

37:13So yeah, that's, that's nonsensical, but it does get us to the city of Bethlehem. Yes.

37:20You can call it the, it is the Macguffin census against us to Bethlehem, which is called the

37:28city of David. Uh, is that right? Is there, is there, are we just fulfilling a prophecy

37:35thing or why, why, uh, yeah, the city of David is, is a name for the, uh, a ridge that kind

37:43of juts down a little south of it's like the Florida of Jerusalem. It kind of sticks out

37:48a little on the south. Uh, and that's where David's palace was. That was, uh, Jerusalem

37:54before like the temple was building and all that kind of stuff. So, so it had that title

37:58of the city of David for, okay. I just get, you know, I get, you get Jesus who's called

38:03Emmanuel and Bethlehem is called the city. Like just name things once. I don't want,

38:09I don't want more names.

38:15We need to talk about dating as well here because, um, it says in those days, a decree

38:20went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered. This was the first

38:23registration and was taken while Quirinius was governor of Syria. Quirinius was governor

38:30in Syria or legat in Syria, uh, and conducted a census in the year six C.E. Oh, because after

38:39Herod the Great died in four B. C. E. His son, Arkeleis took over rule of Judea and he was

38:46a moron. And because of his ineptitude, he was deposed in the year six C. E. And Rome

38:52was like, we're doing it ourselves. And so Rome was like, well, we got this territory

38:57now that we took over. Um, because of that moron, we need to know how to tax it. And so

39:03they said, Quirinius, you're closest to Judea. Go run a census in Judea. And so in

39:09six C. E. Quirinius ran a census in Judea, which means that this is a full 10 years separate,

39:17separated from after the death of Herod the Great. So, and even though Luke says that

39:24this was happening in the time of Herod the Great. So internally, so in, uh, Luke, one

39:30verse five in the days of King Herod of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah. So internally

39:36Luke's story. Artie is contradictory. Yeah. It cannot work because it is placing two different

39:43events that took place 10 years apart from each other at the same time. Um, so it fairness to the

39:50author of Luke, he was writing this well after the fact. Yeah. You know, it's hard to get all

39:56of the facts. Right. And probably extra extra well after the fact because this might be a

40:01secondary addition to Luke, which means this might come from like the middle of the second

40:06century C. E. Wow. This might be a hundred years after the death of Jesus. And, uh, I don't know

40:12about you, but I would probably not do a great job trying to write a story about something that

40:18happened, uh, you know, 130 years ago, even with Wikipedia, I was going to say just Google when

40:25the census was man. Come on. Yeah. All right. So, uh, they're, they go to the city of Bethlehem.

40:32Uh, Mary has the kid, wraps him in. Uh, I prefer the, the phrasing, swaddling clothes, but

40:39NRSVUE has has bands of cloth and puts him in the manger because there's no room for him in the

40:49guest room, which is, which is heavy in RSVUE. That is not how Robert Peterson said it. And at

40:59Temple Square, down in downtown Salt Lake City. Yeah. What about the end? Where's the end, Dan?

41:05Uh, there was no end because, uh, the word in Greek is katalima, which, uh, usually means some kind

41:11of, uh, sleeping quarters or something like that. So you could squint at it and be like, yeah,

41:16that's an end, but, uh, elsewhere, uh, when you have the, uh, the parable of the, uh, of the good

41:24Samaritan when he takes him to a place to stay, it's not katalima that is used when in Luke,

41:31they describe Jesus prepping for the last supper. It's in the katalima in somebody's house. And so,

41:38this means in the, either the sleeping quarters or the guest room. And so they are already at

41:45somebody's house. They already have a place to stay, but it's too crowded in the bedroom. And so,

41:52they go to, uh, they go down to downstairs and the standard four room house that would have been

41:59prototypical of Judea in this time period would have had a bottom floor where you kept storage

42:05stuff. It was, uh, a little cooler. The animals were down there. A manger would be down there. And

42:10then you'd have a ladder or something that went up to a second floor. And that's where you would

42:15sleep. That's where you would eat and things like that. So there's nothing upstairs. I mean,

42:19it's just like a feeding trough. Is that right? Yeah. And also a lot of people think manger

42:24means like shed or, or, uh, or something like that or a stall, but yeah, it is just a feeding trough.

42:32So it would have been a little stone feeding trough. Which, which could be cradle-like. It's

42:38fine. Uh, okay. So they put it by just, just to clarify one other thing. Yeah. They did not

42:45swaddle sheep and put them in mangers to protect them in this time period. This is a laughable,

42:54laughable myth that people have made up to try to inject more significance into Jesus being

43:01swaddled and laid in a manger. Why? Because it, because he's the lamb of God, is that the, the

43:08connection they're trying to make with that? I've never heard that. I've never heard that they

43:11all over social media. Oh, I'm sure. But yeah, the idea is that, um, you know, they, they swaddle

43:17them because otherwise they thrash around in the manger and they, they bashed their heads against

43:22the stone and they, and they die. I was like, well, they didn't put them in a manger to begin with,

43:27but yeah. Why would you put it in the feeding trough? That's swaddling. Yeah. Swaddling a

43:32baby sheep just sounds like such a great idea. So yeah, if you tried swaddling them,

43:40I just can't imagine. I love the idea that sheep are so dumb that like the first few hours of their

43:45lives, if you don't, if you don't buy, if you don't put them in a straight jacket, they just

43:49flail themselves to death. Yeah. All right. Uh, yeah. So that, that didn't happen. Good.

43:56Shepherds. We're going to get to shepherds now. Who? This part baffles me. Okay. But I think it's

44:04actually kind of cool. And maybe I'll tell you why, but what happens in the Bible in chapter two of

44:10Luke is that shepherds are the Bible. Sorry. I couldn't resist. You're right.

44:15The, uh, so the shepherds are watching their flocks by night. So it's nighttime. Did shepherds

44:21do that? Do you have to watch them 24 seven? Anyway, they're watching their flocks by night.

44:27And then, uh, angels appear, a heavenly host or whatever. It's a huge laser light show. They got

44:35a full orchestra. Chapel Rohn is there. It is, it's a hollow balloon. And, uh, and they tell these

44:43dudes, just a, just a few dudes, uh, hey, go find a baby. Here's how to find it.

44:51Which is we are a baby. I'll get you a baby by two o'clock. It's, it's such a weird thing. Why are

44:58that? Why, why is it important that the shepherds know and like not everybody else? I'm, I'm mystified

45:06by this. Yeah. Um, do you have any insights or is it just a big question mark? I, I think it's just,

45:13it's just vibes. Uh, you know, we, this is the, so here it is the lamb of God. So you got to have

45:21some shepherds come by and go, yep, that's the lamb of God. Okay. Well, there's your problem

45:26right there. You, you left him in the manger. Wait, you can take him out of the manger.

45:32It's just so weird. It's just, it, I kind of like it in part with like, you know, I think there are

45:41a lot of Christians in the United States of America, especially with, you know, the, the whole

45:49prosperity gospel thing, they, where they put wealthy people as a sort of the, the most deserving

45:55and the most important of our society. And they kind of biblically justify that. So to me,

46:02there's something very lovely about the idea of, Hey, the angels being like, you know what,

46:08those guys are just chilling. Let's go tell them about it. They'll dig it. And it's not

46:13important people. It's not the, you know, the, the profits or the, or the, or the priests of the

46:20town. It's, you know, they're, they're not waking up everyone at the temple. They're just waking up

46:25some dudes who are minding their business with their sheep. Yeah. It could have been Paul Revere

46:30riding through town. The Messiah is coming. The Messiah has come right. And then not making it

46:35all the way to Concord and then demanding he be paid a amount of money, but, but it wasn't.

46:41They went to some lowly shepherds. Yeah. So the shepherds do what they're told they go and they

46:47find the baby and they tell the story of the big concert that they got to see. And everybody's

46:53very impressed by that. And that's the end of the shepherd's bit. Yeah. And then, and David was a

47:00shepherd by the way. So they're, they're drawing, there are connections being drawn here. Okay.

47:07There's that. But again, mostly vibes, mostly vibes. And then that's most of it.

47:15The eight days later, they, they name him Jesus and cut off the end of his penis.

47:19And then they, they take him to the temple and kill some birds to purify him and to make him

47:25holy to the Lord, which isn't a special thing for Jesus. Apparently they were supposed to do that

47:30for all of the firstborn sons. A guy named Simeon, I don't know why this isn't ever in any of the

47:37nativity stories that I hear. I never heard about Simeon in the nativity stories, but it seems like

47:44a cool part of the story. He's in Jerusalem. He was told by the Holy Spirit that he would

47:49live to see the Messiah and he goes to see the kid and he's happy about that. And an old lady

47:55prophet named Anna praises Jesus. And then they, they scurry off back to Nazareth.

48:02Yep. The end, very, verse 39, when they had finished everything required by the law of the

48:08Lord, they returned to Galilee to their own town of Nazareth. So in Luke, they go back home to where

48:15they're from. Yeah. In Nazareth. So what are two discrepancies between Luke's account and Matthew's

48:24account or two completely different and utterly unrelated stories? Yes. That would be a better way,

48:32a more accurate way to put it. Yes. These are completely unrelated stories. And really the only

48:37thing that they share is that this was announced beforehand by an angel. And Jesus was born in

48:45Bethlehem because that's what the prophecy says. Right. Everything else is dealer's choice.

48:50And these two dealers chose very, very different stories. Yeah. I mean, it's very clear that the

48:57authors of these two stories were not aware of each other. Like whoever wrote second had not read

49:05the first one. Yeah, not big on reading. But, and also, I think it's, it's interesting that in both

49:14Matthew and Luke, for the rest of the gospel, none of the details of these narratives pop up.

49:21Like there's the name Bethlehem never appears again. In fact, there are eight total occurrences

49:29of the name Bethlehem in the entire New Testament. Seven of them occur in Matthew and Luke.

49:34And the other one is just a passing reference in John to that, to the prophecy about the Messiah

49:39being born in Bethlehem. The town is never mentioned anywhere else in the entire New Testament.

49:44Huh. So, and the miraculous events, it's not like, hey, remember when that cool thing happened? Nope.

49:49They nothing is, is mentioned from these miraculous events anywhere else in Matthew or Luke.

49:57There you go. I mean, and there, there are some other points. There are some, I like, you know,

50:04looking at it, there are some points in the gospel of Mark where Jesus is called Jesus of Nazareth

50:09or the Nazarene. So that's good. Like it is important to make sure that he's, he's from Nazareth,

50:16like somehow. And then, you know, in, in John, like you say, like John's, John's all over the map.

50:28John's just back in the, in the, in the creation of the universe. Yeah. Yeah. And, and there are

50:34so many differences between John and the other gospels. One of the, one I think the most interesting

50:38is the synoptics, Matthew, Mark and Luke, Jesus, his ministry is one year. He basically is like,

50:45we're up in Galilee. We're down around here. We're doing this. We're doing that. We're

50:49going to Jerusalem and he gets killed. John is a three year ministry. He's going back and forth.

50:54He's in Jerusalem. He's in Galilee. He's in Jerusalem. In fact, there's, there's one chapter

50:58where he's in Jerusalem, sermonizing, and then the text says, so then they crossed over to the

51:03other side of the Sea of Galilee. Like, yeah, it's Jerusalem is nowhere near the Sea of Galilee.

51:09Correct. Correct. It is, it is a mess. Okay. I'm going to, I, I, you mentioned that Paul

51:18doesn't talk about this at all. I think the closest that come that I could find

51:23is in Galatians. Is that one of the real Paul ones or the fatal ones? That is one of the real

51:28Paul ones in Galatians. He says, but when the fullness of time had come, God sent his son,

51:35born of a woman, born under the law. That's as close as we get to Paul talking about the birth

51:43of Jesus. Yeah. And, and the idea there seems to be to emphasize that Jesus was came as a human,

51:50and tabernacle in actual flesh among us. And you can tell because he was born of a woman.

51:58Yeah. Not, not, not a bird, not a stone, not a stork, not anything else.

52:03I mean, it's interesting. The, the content of these two narratives is interesting, but also the,

52:15the sort of the emphasis, the what it's, what each of these two narratives is focused on

52:21is really interesting. You've got, you know, you've got Matthew very clearly focused on

52:27bullet pointing different prophecies that, that this fulfills. And as you say, shoehorning in

52:38as much as he can to make it happen. And Luke seems much more interested in saying this was

52:45miraculous. This was amazing. Yeah. It's all about people singing praises,

52:50whether it's John the Baptist parents, whether it's Jesus's own parents, whether it's the shepherds,

52:55whether it's the angels, everybody is, is singing praises to this young boy. And nobody is killing

53:03all of the, all of the babies. Yeah. Yeah. Or, you know, and there's carrots not even a part of

53:10the story. Yeah. No, there are no magi. There's no Herod. He's not a good guy. He's not a bad guy.

53:14It just, hey, guess what happened when Herod was king. And yeah, does not play a role. Yeah.

53:21He's an NPC, the, the luke in Nativity. Well, and as you say, wasn't even actually alive.

53:28I would if yeah, if this happened during Corinius's census, yes, he has, he was long gone.

53:35And some of the, some of the other traditions that people associate with the Nativity,

53:41I mentioned earlier, Mary riding on a donkey, right, a lot of the paintings you see of Mary

53:48traveling down to all of Judea. Yeah. It's Joseph Walken, Mary riding on a donkey,

53:55gently caressing her, her belly. That comes from the proto Evangelium or the pro Evangelium,

54:03the proto gospel of James or the infancy gospel of James, a pseudopographic second century CE text,

54:09the notion that he was born in a cave. So particularly within the Catholic and Orthodox traditions,

54:18you'll see a lot more depictions of the Nativity that are in caves.

54:21That is based on the proto Evangelium of James. There are a bunch of traditions that have worked

54:29their way into the Nativity that are deriving from later non canonical, frequently entirely

54:39rejected as heretical texts having to do with with Jesus's birth. So, and the idea that Joseph

54:46brought children from a previous marriage. And this is why there are references to Jesus's brother,

54:51brothers, and we can maintain the idea that Mary was perpetually a virgin that comes from the same.

55:00So yeah, it is fascinating how many things have like, yeah, I haven't heard all of those things,

55:08but the image of Mary on a donkey is indelibly printed into my brain. Yeah.

55:15And I, and now that I've, you know, paid a lot of attention as I read through this,

55:21it's like, oh yeah, it doesn't say that. But thank goodness, whoever that the author of that James

55:29book, thank goodness, someone came up with that, because the idea of a woman deep into her pregnancy,

55:38making a 90 mile trek. Yeah, give that woman a donkey. Yeah, and I imagine the bathrooms on the way,

55:47we're not very clean. You can just see here is like, I need to pee again. Oh my gosh, those

55:53guys and rest stops are the worst. They don't even have good energy drinks.

56:04It's so true. All right, friends, well, there you have it. I hope that your Christmas isn't

56:10entirely ruined. Go and take down all of your little crushes, all of your nativity scenes,

56:16because they're wrong. You get to choose you either get the wise men or you get the shepherds,

56:24but you can't have both. No, as we've talked about before, enjoy it as exactly as it pleases you.

56:32Yeah, and I imagine that there are people out there who are like, what the hell does Dan do on

56:37Christmas? But I have my own translation of the New Testament that I've that I'm doing for

56:43childhood readership. I read the the nativity scenes from Matthew and from Luke, and we have

56:51our each of our kids has their own nativity set and we just talk about it. And, you know,

56:58I am perfectly open with them saying this is this is a tradition that the two stories don't fit

57:04together perfectly. Probably didn't happen this way. And, yeah, everybody's cool with it. We still

57:11enjoy celebrating Christmas and doing this little tradition of sharing the nativity stories.

57:18And then your kids go to church and get in trouble. No, they don't get it.

57:25They're more likely to get in trouble at school. Yeah. By from from saying, you know,

57:30Santa's not real, right? Not only is Santa not real. Your story is messed up.

57:38Yeah, you know, actually, now that I think about it, I think it might be really fun to just take

57:44all of you know, there are lots of people who who my mother-in-law included who take who collect

57:52crushes of the nativity scene. Yeah, it'd be fun to take the characters, like, only allow

57:59wise men on one half of them and only allow shepherds on the other half of them and like,

58:03just just separate it all out so that you've got the Matthew side versus the Luke side and they

58:10can they can have a rumble. I was just going to say, yeah, there's a whenever I lead tours in

58:16Israel and Palestine, we go in to Jericho, which is a Palestinian territory. And there's a a

58:23souvenir shop called Jimmy's. I think it's Jimmy's bazaar. It might just be Jimmy's.

58:29But there's a guy there who works almost entirely in olive wood, but you can get $20,000,

58:38like eight foot tall, nativity sets carved entirely from olive wood or down to the little tiny ones.

58:47And every time I go there, people always have a great time just looking at the many different

58:52types of nativity scenes they have there. But it's always such a treat for them to be in Jericho

59:01and looking at olive wood, nativity scenes. Yeah. All right. Well, that's lovely. I like that story.

59:08More stories. I'm going to promise that you and I are going to tell more of our Christmas stories.

59:16In the after party for this episode. So anyone who is one of our $10 a month or more patrons

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