Ep 84: The Demon Haunted Bible

00:00and of course all of this is just something bad guys would say so we're

00:06obviously in that in that latter category yeah oh yeah I get reminded

00:11every day that I that I am a demonic tool of Satan yeah it warms the cockles

00:19of my demon possessed Hey everybody I'm Dan McClellan and I'm Dan Beacher and

00:29you are listening to the data over dogma podcast where we increase public

00:33access to the academic study of the Bible and religion and combat the

00:38spread of misinformation about the same how are things Dan Beacher things are

00:42great I'm I'm enjoying you know it's it's the fall season it's an exciting time

00:50when you know all the pretty things die and go away and all of the bad weather

00:57haunts us and takes over and I I try to I try to enjoy it but but it's tricky

01:05it's but it's a good time I think for a spooky show yes it's a good time when

01:15we're recording this for a spooky show when anyone is listening to it this

01:20spooky time will have passed okay okay fine we are recording on Halloween yes

01:26we are we both have ADHD you can't expect us to think that far into the future so

01:32that we record a show and it comes out in a timely fashion that's just not how

01:36we do I just watched Hot Ones earlier and it's Jimmy Fallon the episode that

01:44came out today and it's a Halloween special and I was like they probably

01:48recorded this in July yeah but then so I was like they have a clue what they're

01:54doing look if we if we had producer money maybe we could maybe we'd be able to

02:01do this but as of yet we are we're not quite that rich you guys haven't shared

02:06us with all of your friends and you haven't all signed up to be patrons yet

02:11so until that point a spooky show comes when spooky show comes and and that am

02:17now yeah we we barely have production money yeah exactly so anyway but it's a

02:26fun one we're gonna be we're gonna be diving into a subject that a lot of our

02:33listeners slash viewers have requested so I'm excited about it so let's just

02:39dive right in yes let's so here's the thing Dan when we decided we were going

02:48to talk about demons on the show here's the thing about this show what I have

02:54learned from doing this show for a year and a half is that a everything I thought

03:00I knew about the Bible is probably not right and B a lot of the things that you

03:07hear the most about from especially from certain fringe areas of Christian or

03:15you know theological study you I can dismiss it like for instance when they

03:25you know when I hear people screaming that abortion that the Bible says abortion

03:30is the murder of babies and that it's very clear on this I know that's nonsense

03:36and when the end or if they say that you know the Bible is anti LGBT and and you

03:44should be - I know that that's nonsense I'm used to thinking that when the fringes

03:49are really emphatic about something it's they've probably really put a whole lot

03:55of lenses on it to get to this thing so when I started researching demons I was

04:01like I wonder if that's even in the Bible and then I went and I was always in the

04:07Bible yeah so it's not that it's not one of those right it's not one of those

04:12things it's not even really there oh it's there it's in the New Testament yeah

04:18yeah the oh that's an interesting point yeah yeah and we'll talk a little bit

04:24about why okay but yeah can but continue I'm sorry I interrupted no no no I mean

04:30I think that's a great place to start let's just let's just dive right in let's

04:34talk about why I found all kinds of New Testament demonic verses and you're right

04:43didn't find much or hardly anything in yeah so so just like we have some stuff

04:51in that's not in the Hebrew Bible like hell like you if you look in the King

04:55James Version you see hell a bunch in in the Old Testament but that's just because

04:59it's a bad translation of Sha'ol a Hebrew word that does not refer to the

05:05conceptual package that indexes the English word hell and the same is true

05:11of demon you don't have a Hebrew word for demon in the Hebrew Bible mainly

05:17because demon is a Greek word like it originates in Greek there is no Hebrew

05:22equivalent and it comes from the Greek word is Damon so it's spelled a little

05:29differently than how we use it but demons how it's come into English and

05:33and the word Damon really only refers to a kind of divine influence like it's

05:40not the word the else which means a God a deity but it's used to refer to the

05:45divine influence power agency of deities so divinity might be that and and it's

05:53usually used to refer in Greek literature to the kind of influence where

05:58something might suddenly happen good or bad and you would say that's a

06:04diamond that's the demon and but devoid of any kind of value judgment we think

06:11of demon as a negative value judgment yeah it is it's a bad thing it's evil it's

06:18right in ancient Greek it was not it was neutral huh you could have a demon that

06:24made something good happen or you could have a demon that made something bad

06:27happened but it was this kind of faceless nameless just mass of divine

06:33influence and and so like you could also equate it with the concept of kind of

06:39amuse somebody's individual kind of divine inspiration could be referred to

06:44that way could be understood as a type of spirit something like that and so

06:48that's the word that became what we now know as demon and it gets picked up

06:54within Greco-Roman period Judaism primarily in the anochic and other

06:59pseudopographic literature literature so first Enoch Jubilees some other texts

07:05from Greco-Roman period Judaism are the ones that first take this word and use

07:10it to render some different Hebrew concepts but then to develop an idea of

07:16evil spirits and that's what gets picked up in the New Testament okay but it's

07:23also dovetailing with Mesopotamian concepts so none of this is native to

07:30the Hebrew Bible but in Mesopotamia in the Akkadian language you have all kinds

07:36of concepts of malevolence spirits and divine entities and to understand how

07:43they kind of organized their understanding of of the divine world you've

07:48got to understand the the concept of center and periphery so think spatially

07:54about a civilization and I this is how I think about my neighborhood like the

07:59really nice houses are in the center and then you've got you got the starter

08:03homes and then you got the condos and then beyond that you've got the

08:06apartments and the bad apartments beyond that like you know you've got these

08:10concentric rings of increasing value and importance to the the society

08:18according to the people who live at the center anyway and

08:22anciently they thought of the city as the center of civilization as the pinnacle the

08:28peak of civilization and the further away you got from the city the less

08:32order there was the more disorder there was and the less civilization was

08:37possible and so as you get to the outskirts you get two places that are

08:41less habitable and then you get into the uninhabitable wilderness and the sea

08:46and the desert are kind of the prototypical uninhabitable

08:50wildernesses where humans can't live and certainly can't build an ordered

08:56society right so closer to the center more order more civilization closer to

09:01the periphery less order less civilization more disorder and that's

09:06where that's the home of all of these malevolent spirits that occupy the

09:11wilderness and dance with the devil in the pale moonlight and so in like in

09:18Isaiah you have the Lilith lilyt in Hebrew this only occurs in reference to

09:24this prophecy about how Jerusalem would become this desolate uninhabitable

09:30wasteland occupied only by the screech owl I think is how the King James

09:34Virgin renders lilyt but it mentions all these kind of demonic forces and like

09:40even Azazel you know if you go that's that's the entity that's out in the

09:46desert that you're leading the scapegoat out to so these disordered

09:53malevolent entities occupy the uninhabitable wilderness and so in

09:59Mesopotamia they were they were always threatening the order of

10:01civilization so you had to have a bunch of different ways to keep them at bay

10:06and that was different charms and different kinds of magic that you would

10:11use and you know women during menstruation had to make sure they were

10:16doing certain things because that provides a convenience portal for some of

10:22these demons you know yeah in Egypt you wanted to make sure they didn't come

10:25in through the ears or through the nose because those were particularly

10:29susceptible orifices as well so this kind of they need they need a physical

10:34entree into the body is what you're saying yeah and in this time period we

10:39don't yet have this this dichotomy of material and immaterial everything is

10:44is material in one way shape or form but some things are a different kind of

10:50material and you know more pure right spirit was still material spirit was

10:57like an allagized as wind like even the word or whoa spirit means wind and so

11:05you can you can feel the wind just like you could feel spirit but it was also

11:11something you know you can't you can't like grab the wind you can't well you

11:17can break wind but you can't break the wind and so it's impervious can you

11:23paint with all the colors of the wind well see that's a different story no it

11:29has no color but and so these these spirits are are conceptualized as

11:36something like the wind so they can get in you you know if you're not careful and

11:41this is this is kind of what gets conflated with the Greek concept of the

11:47diamond within Greco-Roman period Judaism they're taking some of what they have

11:53some of the residual Mesopotamian influence from the exile and from the

11:58Persian period and they're mixing it with some of the Greek concepts and we're

12:05also mixing it with some Hebrew Bible texts so for instance the sons of God

12:10they come down and they have children with the human women from Genesis 6 verses

12:152 through 4 that's kind of the foundation of the anachic tradition which then

12:20reinterprets it and expands on it and generates this narrative where they come

12:26down and they and they have these children who are the giants and the

12:29giants have children who are the Nephilim and the spirits of the deceased Nephilim

12:34are the evil spirits that then become the demons and so interesting okay according

12:43to one narrative there are a bunch of different narratives but that's yeah and

12:47that doesn't seem to match up with the narrative that I got from multiple sources

12:52in my research about sort of the origin story of the demons okay but I don't know

12:59we I guess we can just talk about that I you know I found in a few places where

13:05it would say that demons are and you know this one uses second Peter as its

13:10reference point for this but it it says demons are angels that sinned yes and

13:16rebelled against God and so they are destined for hell and they're going to

13:22torment as many of us as they can before they have to go there or something along

13:26those lines yeah so so there we have we have the idea of these these angels so

13:31in the anachic tradition and and we see this primarily in in jubilee's the the

13:36angels they're created on the first day and they watch the rest of creation and

13:43you know they're there the the muppet babies just kind of like hey but then when

13:50you get the story of them descending because you know they're just way too

13:56horny that then leads to all this bad stuff so they fall and then you've got

14:02these named angels who are are doing all this bad stuff and then in in Enoch God

14:08is is like tells the other angels like Gabriel and Michael and and these others

14:13is like go bind them under the earth for you know for 70 year you know whatever

14:21years of years and oh yeah and so they are imprisoned and they're bound and

14:27this is where we get the development of concepts of hell it's originally for

14:30the angels so the disobedient angels are also another kind of conceptual template

14:36that dovetails in with the idea of demons so that's that's from Enoch that idea

14:43comes like what's fascinating to me about this one of the fascinating things is

14:47that like most of Christianity rejects the book of Enoch as scripture currently

14:55yes but it's very Christianity is also descended from the book of Enoch that's

15:01what I'm saying like it's so clear how powerful the influence of that book has

15:06been when you look at you know the stuff that makes it into the New Testament it

15:12is like all of it references it all the time yeah yeah it's concepts of the devil

15:22concepts of hell concepts of heaven the it's all there so that the second Peter

15:31verse that I was talking about that was referenced in that article that I was

15:35reading a second Peter 2 verse 4 which says for if God did not spare the angels

15:42when they sinned but but cast them into hell into hell and committed them to

15:47chains of deepest darkness to be kept until the judgment and I didn't know

15:54where that came from but I guess it's an Enoch thing yeah and and you have so

16:01that's a reference to Enoch in like the book of Jude you have a direct quotation

16:05from oh yeah yeah and here in Enoch chapter 119 and Uriel said to me

16:14there stand the angels who mingled with the women and their spirits having

16:18assumed many forms bring destruction on men and lead them astray to sacrifice to

16:23demons as to gods until the day of the great judgment in which they will be

16:27judged with finality and the wives of the transgressing angels will become

16:33sirens so this this narrative is an opportunity to take all these loose

16:39threads and weave them together into this tapestry that becomes the backdrop of

16:45the development of of Christianity but actually that this reminds me I want to

16:49focus on something because it says let them astray to sacrifice to demons as to

16:55gods meaning as if to gods and this is actually the this is quoting well kind

17:02of this is paraphrasing Deuteronomy 32 17 and this is a very influential text in

17:08the development of the concept of demons because Deuteronomy 32 is the song of

17:13Moses it went triple platinum I think Pharrell probably ripped it off at some

17:23point or another but I'm just kidding I have nothing against Pharrell but it says

17:29here the it's talking about Israel in the wilderness things they did wrong

17:35things they they sinned on and it says they sacrificed to Shadym and that's a

17:40Hebrew word that probably is related to a an Aramaic word she'd dying which is

17:49like a class of deity and we see it in an inscription that was discovered called

17:53the Dear Allah inscription with which mentions Balaam but that's there's

17:59probably a kind of secondary class of deities and it says they sacrificed to

18:04Shadym not to God comma gods they did not know to newly arrived ones whom

18:16your ancestors had not feared and so this is this is condemning the Israelites

18:22because they were sacrificing to other gods and it calls them Shadym and this

18:28might be in fact I think it's probably related to the root from which we get

18:33Shaddai I probably shouldn't say that but so it's probably related to God's

18:41title Shaddai which may come from this specific class of deity but when it came

18:47time to translate that into Greek for the Septuagint they didn't really have an

18:52equivalent for Shadym and I think Shadym probably occurs in maybe like two or

18:57three other passages in the Hebrew Bible let me see yeah looks like it occurs

19:05also in Psalms 106 37 they sacrificed their sons and their daughters to Shadym

19:12and they chose Daimon or Daimon to translate Shadym which meant that these

19:22and there's an argument to make that it's probably because we don't know what

19:27kind of deities they are they're just these nameless faceless deities oh well

19:30Daimon means kind of a nameless faceless divine power it's this

19:33undifferentiated mass of divinity and so well that makes perfect sense let's go

19:38with that but then the Daimon becomes the the object of false worship it

19:49becomes false gods it becomes wicked deities and that plays into the

19:55development of the the anachic tradition and Jubilees and stuff like that and so

20:01by the time of the New Testament all of this is coming together and who is it

20:05that they sacrificed to oh they sacrificed to demons and so when you look

20:10in most English translations of the Bible now because the the Septuagint

20:16rendered Daimoniz for Shadym they sacrificed to demons not God that's the

20:22NRSVUE they sacrificed unto devils not God that's the King James version no

20:27English translation they sacrificed to demons not God so so now we have demons

20:32in the Old Testament okay because of the Greek translation and so we're we're

20:39building this construction of demons going all the way back yeah but but that's

20:46a case of backfilling right like that's not that that's unlikely that that's

20:51that the newer concept of demon is what is meant in with with the Shadym

20:58concept yes yes the the whatever Shadym was intended to mean when that was

21:05composed in Hebrew that has been overlaid with the much later concept of the

21:10demons so yeah it is altering what's going on there but most English

21:15translations are just content to say yeah we'll just use demons whatever who

21:20cares let's move then to the New Testament and talk about what that idea is

21:32what is like do we have a sense I know it's like demons are mentioned plenty of

21:38times in the New Testament and almost casually in a bunch of ways I'm thinking

21:47now of of Luke 8 where in verse 2 it says and Luke 8 has another demon thing but

21:56in verse 2 and you know it's talking about how how Jesus was was sort of

22:04walking and he was accompanied by a bunch of people and verse 2 says as well as

22:09some women who had been cured of evil spirits and infirmities Mary called

22:15Magdalene from whom seven demons had gone out and Joanna the wife of Herod

22:21Stu blah blah blah blah and it's just like it feels so like thrown just sort of

22:26cast out oh and then Mary and boy with she had seven of them but they got rid of

22:32those yeah it just doesn't feel like that like we don't hear that story it's

22:37just like a side note that like also she had she had a whole bunch but but we got

22:43rid of those well there was probably a tradition that was in circulation back

22:47when Luke was or at least the author of Luke was gathering their sources and so

22:53it's a throwaway line it's it's you know referring to something that people at

22:58that time period would have known but obviously that story has been lost to us

23:02but yeah it is it is kind of that that's the world they lived in it was it was a

23:07a demon haunted world where you know because you know the wind blows and you

23:14know it might give you an earache it might go up your nose you might you know

23:18swallow mosquito or something like that and you might have a demon get in there

23:22and that might make you sick if you feel depressed maybe that's a demon like

23:27that they were attributing an awful lot of different things to demonic possession

23:32including mental health issues and and other pathologies I'm sure that we don't

23:38know about yeah I mean I think I think that's the thing right like I was gonna

23:44get to that later on but oh it definitely seems like no it's fine like it

23:49definitely seems like what we're what a lot of this is is just explanations for

23:57things that we now know are caused by entirely other things you know and for

24:02mental health issues or for you know disease or whatever it seems like if

24:11someone just starts vomiting ferociously out of the blue you know before there's

24:18germ theory it's like I don't know probably a demon yeah you know what I

24:23mean like like what else what other explanation are you gonna have if

24:27someone's just if something you know if someone is having a you know a

24:32psychotic break you're not gonna be like oh that's there's probably something

24:37wrong with their brain or maybe they've had a yeah you know whatever they're

24:44going to immediately immediately jump to there's something external affecting

24:50them yeah and and I think the you know we all have kind of an internal anti

24:56contamination system that's kind of intuitively built in and you know it's

25:01kind of why people hate the smell of flatulence so anybody else's anyway

25:07because the intuitively it's kind of like ah this is harmful and it's not but

25:13we all have that internal contamination system that's that is compelling you

25:20to perceive certain things to be harmful and and there can be you know

25:26sometimes it has to do with food sometimes it has to do with actions there

25:30is a sexual disgust sensitivity is a part of that people think certain sex

25:35can be contaminating and so when you have that that's sitting so close to the

25:42surface because they don't have better explanations for what's going on and

25:46they're and they're not really thinking scientifically according to how we

25:49understand the term and in other words they don't have enough information for

25:53their reflective cognition to overrule the intuitive side of things the

25:59intuitive side of things gets to drive and and that is going to because of the

26:05proximity to these other ideas about a demon haunted world the gravitational

26:12pole is just gonna be too great and so your internal contamination detection

26:17system is going to very easily connect things you're afraid of and and things

26:23that you might perceive to be the outcome of contamination to align with the

26:28notion that there are demons everywhere around us and and that they get inside

26:33of you like that's the other thing is that you know if you go further down in

26:38Luke chapter 8 you get to a guy in Matthew it's two guys who is who's

26:49living in the tombs and who is possessed by demons who who is you know what we

26:56would call possessed he would somebody somebody's actually living inside of

27:01him or a bunch of somebody's as it turns out talk about that where did that come

27:06from that just that it's such I mean and this is the guy just so we get the story

27:11the broad start strokes are this guy is a crazy hermit guy lives out in the

27:19wilderness ish I guess at least on the outskirts it's it's yeah if there are

27:26tombs this is on the outskirts which again you overlay that center periphery

27:31idea and it's like he's he doesn't belong in civilized society he's got to

27:36occupy the outskirts and anyway Jesus approaches him and he cries out he cries

27:44out and fell down before him shouting what have you to do with me Jesus son of the

27:49most high God I beg you do not torment me for Jesus had commanded the unclean

27:56spirit that's singular to come out of the man for many times it had seized him

28:02he was kept under guard and bound with chains and shackles but he would break

28:07the bonds and be driven by the demon into the wilds so he was like amazing

28:12crazy strong and would break the bonds you know whatever whatever they tied him

28:17up with Jesus then asked what is your name he said legion for many demons had

28:23entered him and legion in this case is that it's usually it's capitalized as

28:29though it's a proper name but then legion does mean a a troop or whatever so what

28:35are we talking about with that well he he asked what his what his name is yeah and

28:42he says legion but but yeah the idea is just the demon is is is identifying as a

28:49a multiplicity of of demons so it's not just one demon because the the number

28:54shifts right ask what his name is and then he says legion because many demons

29:04had entered in him and I think the Daimonia yeah as soon as he says that it

29:10shifts to the plural that's a neuter nomative plural had entered it into him

29:17and then it says they were where's the NRSVUE they begged him not to order them

29:25to go back into the abyss is what the NRSVUE and so it's back to the plural and

29:28so the idea is upon first glance this is a single demon and Jesus is like oh yeah

29:35we take care of this all the time I can do this on a weekend and but then it's

29:39like oh no it's a bunch of them it's a bunch of them and and for whatever

29:44reason I guess when they get cast out of the guy they have to go back to the

29:50abyss if they can't find another place to be and they beg Jesus that's so weird

29:56that the demons are like please just put us in the pigs will you put us in the

30:02pigs we would love that it's not Jesus like yeah I condemn you to to pig life

30:08they're asking for it and Jesus is like yeah go ahead it's all right well in and

30:14it's you know it's fitting because they what kind of demons are there spirits are

30:20they they're unclean what is a pig it's unclean and so it's they're drawn to a

30:27more or more natural habitat and this is why the demons are are you know

30:31shoving the guy out into what did you say the what is the King James said I'm

30:37in the driven him into the wilderness or driven him into the wild into the wilds

30:42is yeah and yeah and and the word there in I lost my place yeah it's edimos the

30:50wilderness because that's where demons are located yeah at the outside in the

30:55periphery so when they were when they were in the man they were making the man

30:59run out go to the wild wilderness go to their habitat yeah so like things

31:04stranger things yeah he doesn't like what is it that he doesn't like he doesn't

31:09like the hot he likes the cold yeah and so you know he he wants to crank up the

31:14air and then you drive him out by by making it all hot and and so it's the

31:19same idea this kind of a very intuitive natural notion and and it comes from the

31:24the very natural and intuitive notion of possession which is something that you

31:30find in all kinds of societies around the world and throughout time this notion

31:35that's and I've talked about this a little bit it's in my book where you know

31:40the human body is conceptualized as a container we have an inside we have an

31:44outside and the inside is where executive control is located and because we have

31:49these unseen agents all around us for good for bad or sometimes they they can

31:55be neutral and and that's why you want to make sure your your orifices are

32:01all taken care of either through your apatropic amulets or whatever spells or

32:08whatever you you have that keeps them out so they can't get in because if they

32:14get in then that that's where your executive function is is located and

32:18they can take it over right and so demon possession or spirit possession is

32:24something that is phenomenally widespread trans culturally trans

32:28historically it's just something that we find all over the world and and this is

32:32just the first century CE Greco-Roman Jewish manifestation of spirit

32:40possession only these spirits are unclean and then you know prophecy is a product

32:46of spirit possession as well only the clean the good side of God yeah I hadn't

32:53thought of that but that's really interesting so yeah so yes I mean people

32:58talk about I guess I had thought about it because I you know when I was

33:01researching for this I did stumble on a video that that was like don't worry

33:08though demons can't get into us good Christians because we're already filled

33:14with with the spirit of God well that's possession right like that's that's

33:20basically the opposite side of this coin which is yes we're already we've

33:26you know it's good possession but but but we're already filled up there's no

33:32room for Legion in here yeah well and and you've got this this metaphor there's

33:37another part where the they talk about the person's body is a house and you've

33:44got the the strong man who who and I'm forgetting precisely what the metaphor

33:49is which is embarrassing but you've got to tie him up and you know you've got a

33:55sweep out all the all the unclean stuff and so yeah it's it's you know this is

34:01just a function of this perfectly natural side effect of human cognition

34:06is that we understand ourselves to be containers that can sometimes be taken

34:10over and and you know you look at the possession of Saul when Samuel says to

34:17Saul that God's spirit is going to usually the the translation says

34:22something like overtake or overcome you or something like that but the Hebrew

34:26root is Salah which means penetrate God's spirit is going to penetrate you

34:32non-sexually or maybe it is sexually and and it says you will give you a new

34:38heart and that's how you will be you know anointed king is you'll have a new

34:45heart and and so the because the heart is conceptualized as the seat of cognition

34:53in that is located internal to you and so we think of the seat of cognition is

34:59the brain now and so you know we're gonna switch brains and then you know

35:04that that changes who's in charge for them it was the heart God's spirit is

35:08going to you know possess you take you over change out your own heart for a new

35:15one that belongs to God and so it's it's the same thing only we like this kind

35:21of possession yeah interesting yeah I can I just bring up a silly side fact and

35:28just have you answer it for me really quickly you had mentioned that that it

35:31makes sense that the the Legion is cast into the swine because unclean goes into

35:37these these unclean animals but the swine heard that that heard of swine was

35:44owned by a a person who was taking care of them and was presumably kind of upset

35:50that his whole like livelihood was that then like stampeded into the lake and

35:56drowned yeah I so there must have been people who were eating pigs at that time

36:03otherwise well there yeah they're not in they're not in a Jewish dominant

36:09territory right now okay they're on they're on there to the east of the the

36:15Sea of Galilee now there's a traditional location for this that's right on the

36:18shore but depending on which manuscript you look at it has different names for

36:23this location where they are and when we've tried to locate places that went by

36:29that name in the first century they're like miles away hmm so it's like the the

36:33pigs didn't just run off a cliff or down a down a hill are we there yet

36:40showed up and and yeah the idea is that they've you know they they drive the the

36:47man out into the wilderness and they're just like let's yeah let's get these

36:51pigs somewhere and they just who knows accidentally or intentionally drive them

36:57into the water and kill them and you know the that's how that's they're just

37:02desserts and when it when it says abyss the word there the Greek is is abyss but

37:08this is the netherworld this is where the wicked angels the evil spirits were

37:14being kept so so basically we need to occupy these humans or we're gonna go

37:18back to the chains in the darkness where we await judgment that is mentioned in

37:24in the anarchic tradition and then is picked up within the New Testament so

37:28basically this is our you know we're out here joy-riding so that we don't have to

37:33and you know that's keeping us out of jail right so we want to we want to be

37:38joy-riding even if we have to get in the pigmobile and then you know and then

37:43the pigs immediately drown presumably presumably depriving them of their yeah

37:48of their mobile yeah presumably they off they go back to the abyss anyway yeah

37:53I just wanted to provide the coda of that story yeah which I find hilarious

37:58which is that the the swine herds run back and tell everybody in the town what

38:03happened and they're like hey Jesus would you please leave we we we're

38:09uncomfortable with everything yeah we would like you to please go quite the

38:15buzzkill you killed all this dudes yeah you helped that one guy but then all

38:21those dudes pigs are now dead that's just not nice yeah

38:26so let's talk a bit about how demons like how they were meant to affect people

38:39because we talked about the the possibility or what I would deem the

38:44likelihood that this demonic possession was just a an etiology or a way of

38:51explaining just you know various health slash mental health I afflictions yeah

39:00do we do we have a sense of like what they were explaining what what what

39:07things were happening to people yeah we've got we've got a few different things

39:12that are explained as demon possession where Jesus heals people by casting the

39:16demon out as if it was simply a mechanical issue right that oh here's

39:20your problem you got this demon let me just get okay there we go yeah so like

39:26in Matthew 9 verse 32 starts after they had gone away a demon possessed man who

39:33was mute was brought to him and when the demon had been cast out the one who

39:39had been mute spoke and the crowds were amazed and said never has anything like

39:43this been seen in Israel so he's he's making the the deaf to hear the mute to

39:49speak and a lot of this is attributed to his authority over demons and so this

39:55is this is a way to signal that he has this power over demons and can just you

40:02know boom you're healed the demon is is gone see there he's got away and and

40:08presumably they go to the abyss or whatever but but then in in verse 34 it

40:14says but the Pharisees were saying by the ruler of demons he casts out the

40:18demons and and this comes up later where they accuse him again of casting out

40:24demons by Beelzebul which is oh meaning he's summoning the power of the of big

40:32daddy demon yeah like this is all this is all just a grift he's he's just like

40:37they're in league together and and he's like I've got to cast you out so I can

40:43dupe them into thinking that I have power over you yes sir and so that's

40:49that's the accusation that they're making and then and then Jesus gives the

40:52the famous a house divided itself against itself cannot stand how can I cast out

40:57demons by the Prince of Demons which was yeah great movie Kevin Costner no that

41:06was that was Prince of Thieves and I love and Beelzebul is an interesting

41:14story so Beelzebub is how most people are used to hearing that yeah and that's

41:18how and that's probably how a lot of translations actually of the New

41:23Testament render it but the Greek is is Beelzebul or Beelzebul and that's

41:29because it is based on the Northwest Semitic Storm deity Ball and the title

41:36would have been Zevul Ball that's a title that we know from the Euguritic

41:40literature which just means Prince Ball or Prince Lord okay but they've they've

41:45altered it Beelzebub means Lord of Flies right so it's a it's a way to make

41:52fun it you know it's it's like the the pejorative nicknames that certain

41:57presidential candidates give people that's that give him trouble it's just a way

42:02to mock and deride but that's one of the that's one example of a pathology or a

42:09condition or a disability that is attributed to demonic possession there's

42:18another one in Matthew 15 22 just then a Canaanite woman from that region came

42:25out and started shouting of mercy on me Lord son of David my daughter is

42:29tormented by a demon but he didn't answer her and this is where we get it's

42:34not fair to take the children's food and throw it to the dogs and she says yes

42:38Lord yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master's table and

42:44the the very problematic xenophobic dismissal of the

42:49Syrophoenician woman and he said and he basically says woman great is your faith

42:53you know and then from that hour her daughter was healed and elsewhere we

43:00have we have them describe this as you know scratching oneself and and not

43:10being able to walk and all this kind of stuff so obviously severe mental health

43:16issues are also being attributed to demon possession yeah I feel like I you

43:24know it's funny because I think a lot of people might think it that that it's

43:30harmless the these ideas are just interesting but but you know they're

43:35who are they hurt it's not hurting anyone but I've you know so many this is still

43:42this is still talked about today you know I it I saw lots of videos in my

43:47research and found lots of examples of people who were saying you know there

43:52was a recent how I don't remember what state there's a there's a candidate for

43:59office in one of the in a Midwestern state somewhere I think who who's a

44:06pastor and a video just surface resurfaced of him saying mental illness is

44:12just demon possession yeah and and the treatment and don't take them you know

44:17don't take your kid who's suffering to a doctor when what what they need is a

44:23priest who's willing to do an exorcism sort of idea and it's just a a that means

44:30of people who need help aren't getting available help there is available help

44:35and they're not getting it and be it also sort of oddly puts the blame on to

44:42the victim you know the the person experiencing really difficult things is

44:49suddenly blamed for it like they were you know they weren't spiritual enough they

44:53weren't filled enough with the spirit of God and thus they allowed this demon

44:58inside of them and it's their own fault and I think both of those two ideas

45:03combined you know the exorcism is actually on the rise currently as yes

45:09yeah as a as a performed right religious right and that freaks me out yeah I've

45:18I've seen I've definitely seen a lot more folks on Twitter talking about

45:24exorcism as the the go-to fix for problems particularly for children yeah

45:31I'm seeing it a lot associated with with people's kids like don't take him to a

45:35doctor they'll pump him full of drugs and and you know then they'll turn trans so

45:40you need to take him to an exorcist and I and I've even had some some proclaim

45:45self-proclaimed exorcists tell me oh this is real it's totally real and yeah

45:52that's phenomenally harmful people die because of that kind of thing or

45:58experience just massive loads of trauma that they will have to unpack for the rest

46:03of their lives because they were a child and they were told that they were

46:07possessed by a demon yeah and that that's not easy to wrap your head around as a

46:14you know eight-year-old or whatever no no it's it's horrifying that that kind of

46:20thing continues to the the kids are conditioned to to think that way because

46:25I mentioned that that this is kind of a natural intuitive way of of thinking

46:30about contamination and stuff like that when you don't have enough education for

46:37your reflective cognition to overrule those intuitions we have plenty of that

46:43now but if you are conditioned you can actually condition your intuitive

46:49cognition to then overrule the reflective cognition and that's what

46:53happens when you're raised to believe these things and taught that if you

46:58don't believe these things that that is the influence of demons and that that is

47:03unrighteous and that that is what is going to ensure that you're you know

47:07you don't make the rapture or that you're gonna go to hell and so it creates

47:12this internal war between the reflective and and the intuitive cognition and it

47:17allows all of the progress that humanity has made in treating preventable

47:24diseases disability all of these conditions so that they are on the rise

47:30it's it's it's basically an anti-vax position on well things that are not

47:37vaccinated how many times did we hear demonic discussions in relation to

47:46covid like in in relation to instead of go out and get the vaccine and you know

47:54all of the there was like a bunch of the anti-vax sort of rhetoric was centered

48:01on religious reasons why this was coming to pass this this pandemic was

48:09happening and and so if if there is a spiritual cause then the then the only

48:16cure that's available must also therefore be spiritual yeah I think that

48:22that's a you know it's I guess what I'm getting at because I you know I and I'm

48:28in no way trying to talk people out of believing what they're you know out of

48:33their their Bible beliefs but I think it's really important to point out that

48:38as this idea of demonic possession was very clearly a new testament innovation

48:47it was something that didn't exist throughout the you know that well at

48:52hundreds of years of the Old Testament yeah it well at least the the

48:57identification of these things is demons there was certainly the notion of

49:00spirit possession and and in other societies they certainly also had had

49:06those ideas that's why you have these magical texts from Mesopotamia in Egypt

49:10there's like here's the spell to get rid of the demon that's clogging up your

49:15you know you're uterus or whatever so so they certainly had that but yeah it's

49:20not it's not there are no demons in the Old Testament that's the idea so so to

49:25me the idea isn't like you have to give up your belief in in like this shouldn't

49:32shake someone's faith if they you know it if they want to keep believing what it

49:37should do is is at very least make people think this is explaining this is one

49:44explanation for a series of issues yeah we have better you know we've had two

49:50thousand years to come up with much better explanations for those things

49:54it doesn't mean that you know that that the Bible is wrong but it was wrong

49:58about this you know what I mean like yeah that mute guy wasn't possessed by a

50:03devil it wasn't possessed by a demon yeah and and the story is a literary

50:07creation Jesus did not heal a mute person this is just a way for them to have

50:14Jesus fulfilling the prophecies that existed or were thought to exist at the

50:20time regarding the coming of the Messiah will not run too far I wanted to bring

50:28up one one final thing I wanted to talk about a way that Bible translation uses

50:34demons for the sake of colonialism oh hell all right there's this really cool

50:44paper that I that I came across while I was doing research on demons for it was

50:49for my book but it was actually it was dovetailing with stuff I was doing at

50:54work wait do you mean your book the Bible says so my previous book but oh the

51:02Bible says so is my forthcoming book available now for pre-order yes pre-order

51:08at the link that we have in my link tree and also and in the show notes of

51:13this in every upcoming episode yes but there was I read this fascinating paper

51:21because I was I was looking at cultural imperialism and colonialism and this

51:26kind of stuff as it related to Bible translation and there are a bunch of

51:31not a bunch but there are some really good books on this one's called translating

51:35the message that is about translations of the Bible and colonialism and stuff

51:42but there's this there's this wonderful scholar Musa Dubey who wrote a a paper

51:47called consuming a colonial cultural bomb translating Badimo into demons in

51:52the Setswana Bible and what this is about is the fact that when they were

51:55translating the Bible in a Setswana back in the 19th century they chose a

52:01specific word to render the word demon in the New Testament now in in Setswana

52:07they had a word for evil spirits they didn't use that word they chose Badimo

52:11and I and I may not have the accentuation right that may be Badimo I'm not I'm

52:16not positive but that was a word that refers to benevolent ancestral spirits

52:22mm-hmm that helped people that inspired people that they sought out for divinatory

52:30purposes and and all different kinds of things like that for healing and stuff

52:34like that and so the the argument is that the choice to render Badimo was

52:40based on the desire to eliminate the influence of the benevolent ancestral

52:48spirits from this community of Botswana or Setswana speakers so a sort of a

52:57poison pill to go back and and and and degrade their old concepts and the old

53:04religious practice so oh yeah exactly that a way to try to use the Bible

53:10translation as a tool of extracting these unwanted cultural residues that that

53:18they thought were not consistent with Christianity and the problem is it

53:24didn't work because they're traditions associated with the Badimo were too

53:30strong and so rather than understand the Badimo as evil spirits they understood

53:37the Bible and this these references to the Badimo as another instrument for

53:45facilitating the aid of the Badimo and so they would use the Bible

53:50translation as like spells as incantations in order to invoke the Badimo

53:58and they understood that Jesus was kind of a facilitator of of accessing the

54:06Badimo and so the Bible translation became a tool of divin as a or

54:10divination associated with the the Badimo because they the and there's this

54:18theory of host guest ideas of translation where the the target culture is the

54:28host and the translation is the guest and and basically the the host what took over

54:35appropriated the little poison pill that the guest was trying to to bring in and

54:40so I I think it's a wonderful example it's a wonderful illustration of how Bible

54:44something as as ostensibly benign as Bible translation can be a tool for

54:50cultural imperialism but also how it can go it can go sideways if yeah if the

54:57you don't get it right and one wonders if they they read the story of the demons

55:04being cast into pigs and started to ask started to like try to communicate with

55:09their ancestors through pigs after that I'm trying to see if the there is they do

55:16talk about that yeah that was so they use Badimo in that part whether or he

55:23sends them into the pigs okay so no it doesn't tell or she doesn't give any

55:28examples that use that particular story but yeah they they do use the Bible as

55:34as kind of an icon as a a bit of an an idol in that regard to facilitate the

55:40access to the Badimo I think that's so that that's a heartwarming moment for

55:46me you know that when when when the the ancestral thing when the the thing that's

55:53trying to be subsumed then does the subsuming that's that's kind of fun yeah

55:59and you know there's there are all kinds of examples of using vernacular

56:02translation for the sake of cultural imperialism particularly in Africa with

56:08Portuguese languages for instance as well as in places like the Philippines

56:13and elsewhere so yeah it's it's a messy messy business surprisingly enough but

56:21but it's not surprising at all yeah I'd so I guess I you know one of the takeaways

56:29for me on this is just that if you were raised with demon fear and I think so

56:36many people were raised with a lot of fear of demons and and sort of you know

56:44the other side you know now the rhetoric is all political to you know that you

56:51see people like Lance Wall now talking about how Kamala Harris is demon possessed

56:56and using demon magic to get where she is and all of this stuff and I I think I

57:04think we can release it I think we can safely gently release the demon fears

57:11back into the wild cast them into a pig go go find yourself or allow them to to

57:18sail into the abyss yeah cast them back into the abyss because you don't you

57:23don't need that anxiety in your life yeah it's not that's that's not what they

57:27were meant for and it's and it's certainly not useful for you and and

57:33it's it's such a pathetic way to try to cut off thoughtful discourse as well so

57:38just just frame someone as demonic it's it's dehumanizing it's a thought

57:44stopping cliche it reduces everything to this zero-sum binary game where there

57:50are good guys and there are bad guys and there's nothing in between right that is

57:54such a corrosive destructive way to look at the world and of course all of this

57:59is just something bad guys would say so we're obviously in that in that latter

58:05category yeah oh yeah I get reminded every day that I that I am a demonic tool of

58:13Satan yeah it warms the cockles of my demon possessed heart well if you are

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59:00mopod.com thanks so much I hope your demons do well this week and we'll talk

59:06to you again next week bye everybody

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