Ep 82: Deconstruction Zone with Rev Karla Kamstra

00:00To come to that realization, like we were telling on each other, it's only out of Christian

00:07love that I'm going to tell you this sister Carla, and you know I let the pastors know

00:13about this.

00:14This was just brutal.

00:19Hey, everybody, I'm Dan McClellan and I'm Dan Beecher.

00:24And you're listening to the Data Over Dogma podcast where we increase public access to

00:29the academic study of the Bible and religion and combat the spread of misinformation about

00:34the same.

00:35How are things, Dan?

00:36Things are good, man.

00:37Things are good.

00:38We're out here just deconstructing the world where we're yeah, we're actually going to learn

00:46a lot about what what deconstruction means in a modern context in a religious context.

00:52And that is because that we have a really cool guest on the show, Dan, do you want to introduce

00:57our guest?

00:58Absolutely.

00:59Today we have with us Rev Carla Kamstra.

01:01She goes by at Rev Carla on TikTok.

01:05Welcome to the show.

01:06Thank you so much for being here with us, Rev Carla.

01:08It is such an honor to be here with you.

01:11I'm so excited.

01:12Thank you.

01:13Well, we're very glad to have you and part of this is precipitated by the just publication.

01:19I think I saw a an unboxing video the other day of yours of your new book entitled Deconstructing.

01:27"Leaving Church, Finding Faith."

01:31So how did it feel to open up that box of copies of your new book?

01:37It's surreal.

01:38As I said in the video, I let it set for five days.

01:41I can't open that.

01:43I can't open that.

01:44I can't open that.

01:45I finally opened it and yeah, it's pretty it's pretty surreal.

01:47And then I don't know if you know, but you're on the you're on the cover.

01:50I was surprised by that.

01:52I watched the video and you turned it around and you stowed the blurbs on the back and you

01:56mentioned some people and then you turned it back around and then said my name as you

02:00were pointing to a blurb on the on the cover, which wow, that was that was quite in a position

02:06of honor to have on the book.

02:07I was a little surprised by that, but if it blerved and you're you're a blurping master.

02:14Yes, he is.

02:16They chose that.

02:17And I'm glad they did that.

02:18They chose that.

02:19If that helps out the book, then then I'm happy to have to have been able to hold that

02:26position.

02:27So thank you very much.

02:28You know, we got the we got the advanced readers copy and that doesn't it's thankful.

02:34You know what?

02:35I get enough of Dan.

02:36So I don't need Dan's quote on the front of mine.

02:38I'll be happy to send it to you.

02:40That way you can have it put it on the wall.

02:43Yeah, exactly.

02:44Yeah.

02:45And we get the we get the paperbacks to like probably a year before anybody else will get

02:49a paperback.

02:50So that's right.

02:51So that's nice.

02:52We're very special.

02:53Yeah.

02:54But let's talk let's let's since since the book has now been brought up.

02:58Let's let's dive in.

02:59Oh, and actually actually I just realized I completely forgot to more thoroughly introduce

03:04you.

03:05I want to get right to the book, but I completely forgot to explain to to our listeners and

03:11our one viewer who you are.

03:14For those of you who don't know Rev Carla, one you should go follow her on social media.

03:20She's a former Southern Baptist now deconstructing and she likes to keep that in the active voice.

03:27This is an uncompleted action Christian.

03:30She is an interfaith and inter spiritual minister who is ordained through the one spirit interface

03:36seminary in New York City.

03:39So credentials out of the way.

03:43That is what what makes it possible for you to write this book and we are looking forward

03:48to hearing more about deconstructing and what it means.

03:52But I interrupted you, Dan.

03:54So yeah, I mean, I think a lot of those a lot of that introduction actually speaks to what

04:00we're going to get to as we discuss things with you, Carla, because it does feel like

04:07there's a lot packed into that.

04:11Let's start with just the, you know, the title of the book is deconstructing, subtitled

04:16leaving church and finding faith.

04:19And I think there's been, I think there can be a lot of confusion about what about just

04:23the idea of what deconstructing is.

04:26A lot of people are very afraid of that concept and a lot of people are very confused by it.

04:34So maybe let's start with just what do you mean when you're talking about deconstructing?

04:38Well, once again, thank you.

04:40I do want to say how important the work is that the two of you are doing, but because

04:45of that work, I think it helped it informed me when I was deconstructing in the early

04:55days and thought I was going crazy, intuitively knowing that there was something beyond the

04:59walls of my religious indoctrination and looking for data, looking for something that wasn't

05:08just about this literal understanding.

05:11And then finding it and losing that literal Santa Claus that that you then, how do you

05:17unknow that you can't, you can't unsee it, you can't unknow it and finding myself physically

05:21on the floor because I it shred away so almost violently from me, if you will, because at

05:30raised as a Southern Baptist, you are indoctrinated into that very, very early.

05:37So for me, deconstructing was really not only releasing those beliefs, it was losing who

05:44I was.

05:45And so that can be a really scary thing when you are standing there and willing to look

05:53and say, who am I if I'm not who the church says I am?

05:57And what do I believe if I'm not what the church says I should believe in order to be

06:03a good Christian because to be a good Christian means the same as being a good person.

06:09You know, you didn't, you didn't separate the two because who you were in the church

06:13was who you were out in the world.

06:17So that deconstruct, go ahead.

06:19I'm sorry.

06:20I was just going to say you talked a little, you said the word literal several times in

06:23reference to, to your former belief system, talk about just what, what literalism meant

06:31in, in that context and what, like, just so we have a background of what you were raised

06:36up in.

06:37If the Bible says it, I believe it.

06:41Can I make it?

06:42I mean, it is that if the Bible said, and I'm, I'm not only Southern Baptist, I was,

06:46I'm born raised in Kentucky, Southern Indiana.

06:49So that little twang is legit, it's there.

06:53It comes out quite often.

06:54But yeah, if the Bible says it, I believe it, very much the King James Bible was really

07:01what you used, you didn't, you didn't deviate from that.

07:05There was this impending doom that the world was going to, the rapture was going to happen.

07:12We were all going to be saved this temporary visit that we're here because we're all part

07:19of the chosen that's going to be able to, to be relieved from this suffering.

07:25All of that was part of my indoctrination.

07:29Did you experience the kind of anxiety that I hear from a lot of other people, particularly

07:35when they're young, but even into their adulthood that frequently results from these ideas about

07:42how the world's going to end and about your standing before this God, the God of a lot

07:50of Southern Baptist traditions does not have the softest reputation.

07:55So can you identify with those folks who talk about rapture anxiety and other kinds of anxieties

08:01related to their behavior?

08:04Absolutely.

08:06And the dismissing of that fear as well.

08:09I remember I was about seven or eight when I first learned about the rapture and we were

08:16going to go to heaven.

08:17We would be walking these streets of gold, but then terrified that I would miss it.

08:23We're also terrified of death, understanding that there was a finality here as well.

08:29So that was all that awareness kind of happened in that same kind of timeframe.

08:34But being locked, that fear being like, "See, I told you she was too young to learn this

08:41because I'm crying and then I've got to learn how to suppress those emotions."

08:47So we are taught very early on that emotions should be contained and minimized.

08:54Fear should not be shown that we trust in the Lord.

08:58We trust our church leaders.

09:00By default, they are God's chosen on earth.

09:04So we submit to their authority and we don't question.

09:08So you learn to really have a complicated relationship with your emotions and a really

09:15complicated relationship with authority.

09:18Because you can clearly see some of the hypocrisy that happens in plain sight most of the time,

09:25but knowing that you cannot question it, you learn to start to lose your voice in these

09:31really highly controlled religious patriarchal structures.

09:36And that is truly what is the Southern Baptist Convention.

09:40I think in your book, you mentioned that you were accused in a very negative way of having

09:46a, was the phrase questioning spirit?

09:49Is that something on those lines?

09:52Take your pick, spirit of offense.

09:56I was told a lot that I had a spirit of offense because when I did, I think in the book I talk

10:02about those spiritual breadcrumbs when people ask, "When did you deconstruct?

10:06I can go back to being nine and not being able to reconcile the fact that I really did

10:12enjoy watching the fire and brimstone preachers."

10:15There's a lot of animation that goes along with that.

10:19But hearing I can be whoever I want and can be, but I can't be that.

10:25I can't be what I admire and I'm captivated by at the pulpit and not being able to not

10:34being able to reconcile that, but then every place I went along the way in my journey through

10:40Christianity and I journeyed.

10:43I did.

10:44I went from Southern Baptist to the Christian church who didn't accept my Southern Baptist,

10:49didn't accept my Southern Baptist baptism, so I had to get rebaptized.

10:53Then I went to Presbyterian and people will say, "Oh, you were church shopping.

10:58I was not.

10:59I was seeking."

11:00And when I was there, I did the work.

11:02I was an ordained elder.

11:03I was an administrator.

11:04I always had keys to the church because I was always there.

11:07I was always working.

11:08I did equate my salvation and my goodness with the work inside the church.

11:14I believed that.

11:15I believed there was, even though I was questioning and pushing back, I still believed that my

11:19work was associated with the work I did for the church.

11:25So that spirit of offense would come when I'd be like, "Okay, wait.

11:28I'm going to question that.

11:30I'm going to push back on that."

11:32And I would start to push back on what they were trying to force us into some type of submission

11:42or hypocrisy that, like I said, that was out in plain sight.

11:45For instance, one person may be condemned, a family may be condemned because their teenage

11:51daughter was pregnant.

11:53Meanwhile, the pastor's kid just got pregnant and we're going to hold a baby shower for

11:57that.

11:58I've got a problem with that.

12:00But I would be the one that had the spirit of offense for calling that out.

12:06It sounds like there was a high context social group where everyone was expected to signal

12:14to each other that they would live up to the standards and the mores.

12:20We talk on the show frequently about costly signaling, which is just this feature of evolved

12:25human sociality that we signal to others that we can be trusted.

12:30And when that is used to reify and enforce very strict boundaries, it can take over somebody's

12:38life.

12:39It sounds like within your experience that your whole life was basically about performing

12:45all of the costly signaling that you were expected to.

12:49But at the same time, tolerating the violations of that performance from those who were socially

12:57higher up the ladder than you.

12:59Yeah, exactly.

13:00You said it so much better than I was saying.

13:03No, that's a very, very good way to say it.

13:07And those were the kinds of, that was the kind of teachings I was seeking.

13:12There has to be names for what I'm experiencing.

13:16There has to be somebody out there having the same kind of experience.

13:20And I think that that's why our social media has been so good for so many of us who are

13:25deconstructing because you realize you no longer have to do it in solitude.

13:29And I think, you know, obviously the data show that people have been deconstructing and

13:34leaving church for a while.

13:37But social media gives us a place to unite and compare and heal together.

13:44And until which is a good thing for us, not necessarily for the church who's trying to

13:51contain that narrative in a different way.

13:56Now you talked about the entangling of the person and the Christian.

14:03And I imagine folks who are raised within particular religious traditions, I was not.

14:10I was, I was part of a, a fundamentalist Baptist commune when I was first born.

14:16But by the time I was six, I think we had left and I was raised kind of without knowing

14:24anything about religion.

14:25And I don't remember anything from the time before, but for folks whose entire worldviews

14:29are built upon a foundation of Southern Baptist traditions or other traditions like that.

14:36I think the person is being developed on a foundation like that.

14:41And if deconstructing, if we take that metaphor seriously that you are taking apart this edifice

14:47that has been built, the person comes down with that edifice.

14:52Is that something that I imagine that for folks who are going through deconstruction?

14:59That is one, an enormous hurdle to perceive and to want to get over and to something that

15:08must be a very complex and long term process.

15:11I know you talked quite a bit about this in the book.

15:14Could you, could you address this notion that you're pulling down an edifice that is also

15:20your own psyche and your own worldview?

15:23I literally could listen to both of you all day long.

15:28I'm not, I'm not kidding.

15:29I mean, I'm getting emotional listening to you.

15:34Be able to take that story and put it in, validate it, which is what you, which is what

15:40you just did.

15:41And I'm actually surprised by how I started this podcast by being so vulnerable that I

15:46shared with you a very intimate moment about my deconstructing because at the time I was

15:52studying world religions at Arizona State University because I was studying at a Bible

15:58college when I first deconstructed, started the deconstructing journey and then I, like,

16:02an interesting place for deconstruction.

16:05But it's like, again, my indoctrination was such that I'm like, all right, well, it makes

16:10sense that I should probably go to Bible college.

16:13So let's go there.

16:14I'm like, wait a minute.

16:15We're just doing the same thing I've been doing in Bible study for, since I was a child.

16:21So I ended up at Arizona State University's world religion and that it was like the second

16:26class and I'm going, this is, I knew this, but as that started to fall away, yes, I felt

16:33my person.

16:34And when I said I literally, it, I came down with it.

16:38I was literally physically on the ground because you realize it and then you realize I'm looking

16:47at me and who am I?

16:51Because it felt so, I felt so betrayed.

16:54I felt so lied to when it didn't have to be this complicated.

16:59It didn't have to be this cruel.

17:01It didn't have to be this manipulative.

17:03What is the problem with creating a system that allows a wider table, an expansive table

17:12of humanity?

17:13What I hadn't realized at the time, I hadn't really recognized the parts of religion that

17:19needed to control the faithful.

17:22I hadn't gotten to that part yet in my deconstructing.

17:26All I was working with at that time was what I believed and how it had controlled me all

17:33those years.

17:35And so just to get through that part of it took, took a long time.

17:44I was just going to say that I'm guessing that a lot of our listeners are in various

17:49stages of a similar process.

17:53I'd love for you to talk a little bit about those early years when you first started the

18:01genuine questioning, not just like asking, you know, sort of calling out pastors on hypocrisy

18:06or whatever, but also the sort of the more genuine, like deeper search, it's when these

18:15beliefs are so much a part of our identity, when there's so much a part of who we are.

18:23Asking really honest questions is terrifying, or at least it was for me, when I was doing

18:32it, I'd talk about your experience of that and your experience of like, like, like, did

18:38you question who, who you were or like, what, what did you have to go through to get to

18:44these points?

18:45So I think I, in the book, I talk about King Henry VIII, which at that time that I didn't

18:53make the connection of what that had to do with my deconstructing.

18:57I think I don't know if I was able to actually share the book how much I was obsessed with

19:03that part of history.

19:04Yeah, you talked in the book about having like posters of all of the lineages of the

19:10kings and everything.

19:11Yes, I attended seminars, luckily I'm close to Indiana University.

19:16I attended seminars to go just learn as much as I could.

19:20And then I got to that part where he created a church just to divorce.

19:25And I knew the story, but I hadn't, I hadn't connected it to what it meant to me, like,

19:33because you hear P, you would hear people say, religion is man made, religion is man made.

19:40All of a sudden it had relevance to me on what it meant on my, for my humanity, my spirituality.

19:49I still hold on to a spiritual journey now after I, as I'm continued to deconstruct.

19:57I had not made that connection of how much of who I was was connected to my value based

20:08on the approval of church authority.

20:12But I could then go back and look back and see how often that's all I was seeking.

20:18That's what I was seeking.

20:19I thought that if I had their approval and I worked harder, that somehow I could silence

20:24this voice that was inside of me that said, you know, this ain't right, that it was there.

20:32I think it's there for a lot of people that you, you in order to be accepted because it's

20:39your community.

20:40It's your, a lot of times it's your family.

20:42It's your identity.

20:43So you try to keep that at bay in order to stay compliant and stay in approval to stay

20:51in good graces.

20:54So then as I, as I went along and I heard myself continue to ask these questions, I knew, or

21:01I heard this, this, this inner voice saying, not all, not everyone else can be wrong.

21:10Not this, this doesn't make sense.

21:12There's some that it's not mapping for me.

21:15But I also knew that the only way I was going to be able to do that was to do it covertly.

21:21So I'm telling you, and I think I know I tell this in the book about John Shelby Spong coming.

21:28I literally thought when I went out of that church, could not believe I was going to see

21:32him first of all.

21:33I'm still immersed in the Pentecostal Apostolic Church at that point.

21:38I really thought I would go out of that church and I'm like, I'm going to get run over by

21:41a bus.

21:42I just heard this, this man speak and I'm going to get run over by a bus, but then to

21:49come to the place where being ordained and he's the first person I thought of being able

21:56to reconcile the fact that I hid, listening to him to the point that I sent him an email

22:03with my picture, being ordained to say, thank you, because even though I hid your book that

22:11Christianity must change or die and I hid Bart Berman's book and I hid Reza Oslin's book

22:18and I hid Adya Shanti's book and Richard, I hid them all.

22:23I didn't even talk about, other than my family thought I was crazy when I was diving into

22:28King Henry VIII, they were my lifelines.

22:34They were my lifelines.

22:35I don't know why, especially as a boomer, because I'm a boomer and I'm so deep, I'm

22:43steeped in that patriarchy, obedience.

22:47We prayed in public school, we had, pastors would come and pick us up for VBS in May.

22:56You might have to say what VBS stands for.

23:00Oh, sorry, vacation Bible schools, yeah, you're right, sorry.

23:04Vacation Bible school, you know, they got to pick us up from public school to do that.

23:09It was very much a part of my evangelicalism was very much a part of my public school tradition.

23:18Patriarchy was very much what I knew.

23:22I thought as a woman I was less than, but at that point, being able to understand that

23:33I was pushing up against something that I didn't understand, it terrified me.

23:39And there were many times where I thought, I'm just going to go back.

23:45This is too hard out here.

23:46It's too lonely.

23:48And I thought, I'll just go back, I'll go sit in the back row, and I won't say a word.

23:53I'll just be a good Christian because you're not just pushing back against an idea.

24:02You're pushing back against your society, against your culture.

24:06You're pushing back against all these people that you love and who love loved you and you're

24:10pushing.

24:11Like you don't get, you don't get to just question like one part of it, because if you question

24:16any part of it, you're, you kind of have to question, you kind of, you're pushing back

24:20against the whole thing.

24:23You just said it.

24:24You do.

24:25And that's why the deconstructing, when you asked about, Dan, you said about the edifice,

24:31absolutely.

24:32It just starts to, you start to peel back the layers and you start to make the connections.

24:39And you're left with the true self.

24:43If you continue to do the work and who is this person, if it's no longer being defined

24:50by religion, it's healing from those patriarchal indoctrinations and it's seeking a new meaning

24:59and connection, a new understanding and it's not afraid to go into the unknown and out

25:06of your comfort zones to explore and connect and learn.

25:12And then you realize you're not just deconstructing, you're decolonizing and you're learning how

25:18much of your indoctrination was steeped in privilege and set you up for the framework

25:26of moral and spiritual superiority that you didn't even realize that you were, that you

25:31were exuding to the world.

25:34And that's humbling.

25:35Yeah.

25:36I mean, that's, that's really humbling.

25:38I think that's why it's so important when we say we're actively deconstructing because

25:42those are things that I'll constantly be looking at to make sure that those, where those biases

25:50or prejudices are hiding, I'm willing to, to continue to release and let go of.

25:57One of the things that you talk about in the book that struck me, because I think a lot

26:02of people when they're on the inside looking at the potential of maybe asking some of these

26:09questions and stepping out of the structure of, of their religion of birth or whatever,

26:16it can be really scary, it can be terrifying.

26:20And they don't know if there's going to be a safe landing for them.

26:24And one of the things that you talked about was that while it was sort of chaos when you

26:29left, there was also peace.

26:32Is there something?

26:33Yeah.

26:34Talk a little bit about about that.

26:36Was that surprising for you to find, to find that peace when you, when you were able to

26:41let go of some of the, some of the strictures that you were raised with?

26:45Yes, the, the first part that really surprised me was that when I left church, I thought

26:52I was just leaving my church.

26:54And then to continue down that to understand, holy cow, I'm not just leaving my church,

27:00I am leaving church.

27:02That was a, that was a process that took, I'm going to say probably around a year in it,

27:09in itself, but then to also understand that I have the ability to control now what I'm

27:22going to consume, I guess is the right word.

27:26I can't think of what else it would be to be free and not be afraid to explore how other

27:33people experience the divine.

27:36And one thing I will say that during that time that it's very important that I use that

27:40word because I didn't want to say God, I didn't want to say Jesus, I was so angry.

27:48I was really, really angry.

27:51And I wanted to expose the harm that church had caused and had this, had this, this, this

28:02one thing that I wanted to do was close every church in Indiana for it to show them there

28:07be frauds.

28:08And like that, that really pointed to how much, how many wounds there were and the, from not

28:16only the deception, but what harm it had caused me, but also being able to extract, extract

28:24that from not just religion, but my own wounds from my, my lived experience.

28:31So there was a lot of work that had to be done.

28:35And that's where I think people get tripped up when it comes to deconstructing.

28:41If it's, because it's the education part and the reeducation part is so important, but

28:48also the healing is important because it's, and I'm not speaking universally to everyone's

28:56experience when they deconstruct, but for many of us who came from those high controlled

29:00experiences, we were harmed.

29:04They, there were coercive tactics that were used to keep us in compliance.

29:10Spiritual gaslighting is very much a thing by teaching us bypassing is very much a thing.

29:16Anything that you can do to weaponize.

29:18What's this bypassing?

29:20So the gaslighting was a big one.

29:23I talk, I talk about that in the book when I share the experience of how everything was

29:27reframed.

29:29So if you're coming with a, if you're coming with a concern, a pain, an earthly concern,

29:36they would say that would get turned in and minimized into there's nothing more important

29:42than acknowledging the pain of Jesus and the suffering of church leaders and why it's important

29:48that whatever we're going through here, we keep our eyes on heaven.

29:53So that's then you're bypassing the emotional and human need of people to say that there's

30:01nothing more important than the, then making it to heaven and the salvation.

30:07So what do we have to do to make sure that we keep our eyes on the ultimate prize and

30:12keep our eyes on Jesus and in the process, letting like ignoring your own feelings and

30:18neglecting your own, your own sense of worth that's, is that what we're getting at?

30:24Exactly.

30:25So you, you can see that those are tactics that can lead to some type of abuse.

30:31And I think it's, people don't understand that when they first start to deconstruct because

30:38they, their pain has been so invalidated for so long.

30:41It's been minimized, they've been devalued, they've often been dehumanized.

30:47And so being able to give them a voice and understand that your pain is valid and what

30:53happened to you is more than likely some type of manipulative tactic that's caused you harm.

31:00And then if you take that and look at how you may have been harmed in your personal life

31:05outside of your church experience, because oftentimes the re-victimization of people is

31:11very, is very common, people who have, who are easily manipulated in church are more than

31:18likely manipulated at home.

31:21And I don't have that data in front of me, but I'll get it if you need it.

31:26But it's, it really spoke to me because I was also a victim inside my, by a family member.

31:33So you start to, and once again, the church teaches you to be silent.

31:38So how easy it is to victimize people who are underneath that type of structure.

31:46So then all of a sudden the swell gates are released and you are able to experience that

31:52pain.

31:53It's a lot.

31:54Well, and even you talked about betrayal early on, there are scholars now who are talking

32:00about the trauma of betrayal, that the act of becoming aware of that betrayal itself

32:06is a traumatic experience that wounds people that, that kind of adds to some of the burden

32:12of deconstruction.

32:14But you, you mentioned that you people are victims at home as well.

32:21I have seen within my own community that frequently the hierarchy in that structure not only facilitates

32:28that kind of stuff, but also protects the perpetrators of that kind of stuff.

32:36And in your situation, did you find that the structure also was there to ensure that there

32:42was not, there was an accountability for the folks who were, I'm assuming higher up the

32:50social ladder than you who were causing that, that abuse.

32:56You know, I don't know if I can, if it's, if it's actually part of my indoctrination

32:59that prevents me from, from saying some of the things that I hear on social media, because

33:05oftentimes they'll say that abusers are attracted to leadership inside the church because they

33:14know they can find victims and they know they can be protected.

33:17That's a, that's a really hard truth or hard, it's hard for me to say it's hard for me to

33:23hear.

33:25And I don't know what part of me.

33:26I should probably go check that out in this contracting journey.

33:30But when you can't ignore the data, which in 2022, when the Southern Baptist convention

33:35was forced to release the data of how many abusers they have protected, how many abusers

33:43that they paid off the victims, how many lawsuits where they spent millions of dollars to protect

33:49those abusers, some of whom are still in pastoral leadership.

33:54When you see video after video, or you hear the stories of pastors spinning a story about

34:02how they did abuse someone to make it sound like they were, they were led into temptation

34:10to see the, they're the victim, not, not the other person, to see the congregation swarm

34:16around them on the stage to pray for them.

34:19Meanwhile, the victim sits over here with just their families holding space because

34:24they're still trying to fit into this system, even though they've been harmed that indoctrination

34:30is so strong, they want to stay with their community.

34:34This is happening today in 2024.

34:38We have so much more to do when it comes to how you help people who are deconstructing.

34:45But what do you do about that?

34:47I mean, it's, it's still such a broken system, and I'm not talking about the church universal,

34:53but you know this is happening in enough situations that there are many denominations that are

35:00protecting the abusers and are budgeting for it.

35:06It's expected that this is going to happen and that they know how to spend the stories

35:10to continue to protect the abuser, which causes much more harm to the victims than is necessary.

35:19I think just recently I saw on social media videos of a pastor somewhere who admitted

35:25to having had an inappropriate sexual relationship with a minor, but then just got up and performed

35:33repentance, which then made them seem like a hero to the congregation.

35:38And so the system is very much structured to protect itself from accountability.

35:44I imagine reading through, for instance, Kristin Cobes DeMae's book, "Jesus and John Wayne,"

35:52that a lot of that was intimately familiar to you, that you, that felt like something

35:58you had personally experienced.

36:01Some of these books are hard to read, you're just like, well, that hit me in the gut.

36:06And one of the things that is central to, I don't think she, well, no, I think she's

36:12pretty explicit about it.

36:14And you talk quite a bit about the patriarchy in your book.

36:18Can you talk about the role of the patriarchy in facilitating this and how that gets entangled

36:25with the deconstruction process?

36:28Yeah, I get attacked a lot for talking about it as well, but I do, you know, I think waking

36:34up to that was really challenging to understand as someone growing up in the '60s what patriarchy

36:45had taught me and how it taught me to lose my voice and to confirm my lack of self-worth,

36:57that that was the feeling I should have, that I'm only affirmed through male approval that

37:03certainly had impacts on me in my life.

37:07And then when you enmeshed that into religion, you can see how much that harms women and anybody,

37:16any historically marginalized person, because you have a system that's intended to perpetuate

37:26an institution that's protecting primarily the white Christian cisgender heterosexual man.

37:35And anybody else inside that structure who doesn't fit that framework is either participating

37:44in it because of their proximity to that power or they, and they like that privilege.

37:50So they are willing to throw water on the rest of the proverbial structure, if it's

37:57a pyramid, throw water down on the rest of the people in order to protect that power.

38:04So that system not only teaches you to submit to that white man, it teaches you to betray

38:14those who are harmed by it, it teaches you to see them as someone that you cannot trust.

38:21And it really was a hard lesson for me to see how much church, in my experience, church

38:28women really don't like each other.

38:32This was a, like to come to that realization, like we were telling on each other, it's only

38:39out of Christian love that I'm going to tell you this sister Carla, well, and you know

38:43I let the pastors know about this.

38:46This was just brutal, brutal, mean girl stuff, saying that that was blessed by church authority

38:55because it kept everybody in line.

38:59So it teaches you to just look to the heavens and on the way there, look to the church leaders.

39:08And when you first are faced with that, you then have to make some decisions, like are

39:16you really willing to look at how much you've been impacted by it, but also how much you

39:24have benefited from it.

39:27Because it is both sides and that is where a lot of people get tripped up, like I'm out.

39:33I'm not doing deconstructing because I'm going to have to really take a look at some

39:38elements of myself that I'm not willing to let go of.

39:44And so you'll often see people turn away at that point or get really, really mad.

39:49I've said this before and I'm going to make somebody really uncomfortable.

39:52But the one person who I have, besides the, the MAGA person, of course, you're blocking

39:59them left and right.

40:01But the person I've had to block more often on my accounts on social media is the white

40:08Christian woman who thinks she's deconstructing until she gets to a place where she does not

40:15realize she's still holding on to a patriarchal privilege and is weaponizing it towards those

40:23within, in whom she's in community with and that is, does not go well.

40:31And it's often, it becomes a very, very toxic situation for them.

40:38They see that they, they, let's just say it becomes really, really heated.

40:45We'll leave it at that.

40:48And it's so interesting to watch as people who aren't even the ones benefit, who, like,

40:57who get the perceived benefits of patriarchy perpetuating the patriarchal structure and

41:04perpetuating the problems of patriarchy, even though they are not the, the, you know, the

41:11men who are the theoretical benefactor, or not benefactors, recipients of the, of, of

41:19the privileges.

41:21It's, it's, so when, when women work hard to perpetuate it, it's, it can be very surprising

41:27and very shocking to see very, very much so.

41:30And like I said, it's, it's almost easier to call them to block them than the column.

41:37Like, oh, here we go again, this is not, this is not going to end well, but we're going

41:41to try.

41:42So here we go.

41:43So there's, there's an awful lot of emotional labor that, that goes into this, not just

41:48to deconstruct on your own behalf, but, but to help others.

41:52We've, you've mentioned a few times community, and this is something within the cognitive

41:56science of religion that, that we think is something that religion does unusually well

42:01is, is generate community with an awful lot of structural flaws and things like that.

42:06But I don't think you can create community without some of those.

42:11And something that I've experienced on, on social media, particularly talking about just

42:15deconstruction with other folks is that social media a lot of times provides the community

42:22that is suddenly yanked out from underneath folks who, who are going through this process.

42:29And I read your book and it felt like a very kind of intimate pastoral hand holding through

42:37this process.

42:39But it also seemed like an effort to, to try to extend the boundaries of the social media

42:46community that you've become a part of so that people can find it through other channels.

42:54Could you talk a little bit about how you see the role of community within deconstruction?

42:59I, I love how we, I get here, we get here so often when I'm speaking about deconstructing

43:07because I think this is, this is like the natural progression for so long.

43:12It has been about just the act of deconstructing and people now are ready to come together.

43:17And the social community, the social media community can only do so much.

43:23There's going to need to be pies and casseroles made when the funeral happens.

43:29You know, that, like you said, they have that mastered and it, it serves a purpose.

43:33You're seeing that now, especially in North Carolina and the places where tragedy has

43:38struck that this, there is a need that it and I will be the first to, to admit to that.

43:47This, I'm going to not to ever say I'm eloquent with my speech, but this is where I get a

43:52little clunky.

43:53So bear with me and I would love for you to come into this conversation as well because

43:56I do believe it's a, it's a conversation that now needs to be elevated to a higher level

44:02of, of awareness and consciousness.

44:06But as, you know, the data still show people are leaving church and I, it's a harder, it's

44:12more challenging to find the data that shows what's happening inside these, the mostly

44:18modern evangelical American type Christian churches that are part of the mega church,

44:24the modern church, the, the rock bands, the pastors and jeans, that very much is still

44:29has what I call a toxic theology behind it because it does, it, it, it brands itself

44:36as modern, but it's still holding on to a lot of that stuff.

44:39A lot of them have a Southern Baptist history.

44:44So I think a lot of people are just shifting over.

44:46So you're seeing a lot of pain inside and pressure on the smaller churches, the smaller

44:53denominational churches, which is where a lot of your progressive thought is.

44:57And a lot of the local needs are the, the neighborhood churches, unless something changes.

45:04I do believe they'll disappear and I don't want to see that happen, but I do believe

45:10that there is a transformation that, that religion is under some kind of transforming.

45:17And I think this tension that we're seeing now within what's happening with Christian nationalism

45:23is like this, this awakening or a rising, if you will, of just this awareness that patriarchy

45:30really stinks and it's heard a lot of us and that it's not sustainable.

45:35And this church model isn't either.

45:37And I believe me when I say this, somebody's going to say to you, not all churches and

45:42not all Christians and I don't mean it like this, but this is just the easiest way to

45:45talk about it.

45:48People, especially your Gen Z alpha millennial generations are not going to tolerate a massive

45:55building sitting on a massive land plot that's only available a couple hours a week.

46:02It makes no sense to those generations.

46:06I hope that we are starting, we are at the cusp of seeing churches inviting a more secular

46:15community conversation that looks at the needs of the whole.

46:21Now again, admitting that the church will be there in crisis.

46:25It knows how to do community, but community is changing.

46:29And it no longer can just be, I become a member of your church to get these.

46:34What does my humanness invite me into?

46:39And the fact that I think you see in the younger generations a more responsibility for the human

46:46connection, the human need and wanting to see how that can, so does it, is it being invited

46:54into a conversation that says, what is the secular need?

46:57What is the human need with a spiritual component?

47:02That's where I think, that's where I think we're going.

47:05In the meantime, social media community, I think will lead to some local, they tried

47:13these cell groups for a while.

47:16I think that's what you'll start to see that won't have a denominational affiliation.

47:23It'll spin out of something that's going, that's happening with social media.

47:27I've even thought about, all right, let's hear, let's try some points.

47:31Here's some suggestions if you're going to try to start some type of gathering.

47:35And here's what I think, I would like to see some churches.

47:39I don't want to see any church go under.

47:41There was a time when I did, I'll admit it, but I just so, one of our, one of our mutuals,

47:47he probably is your mutual to Dan on social media, coming up that they're going to have

47:51a $500,000 shortfall by April, because they're doing all this good stuff.

47:58They're helping people experiencing homelessness.

48:02They're helping people get the food that they need and the vaccines that they need and helping

48:06kids with backpacks and providing breakfast for the needy, but the church isn't sustainable.

48:13There's not new blood coming in to fund those.

48:18So what's going to happen?

48:19I'm sorry, you can tell, I'm thinking a lot about it, I told you that clunky.

48:24And that meant you gave the mic to a minister and she took it.

48:27So I'm wondering, what I hear you describing, you're using the word church to talk a lot

48:34about a new, a sort of a new looking community.

48:41I wonder if church is even the right word for it.

48:44I wonder if it doesn't need to be something entirely new.

48:50I love it.

48:53Or the word means something different, and that's one of the things I talk about too

48:59a lot in deconstructing.

49:02We tend to assume that these words are only available if you are religious, but being

49:10spiritual means that you can have holiness in your life.

49:14You can live a sacred life.

49:17You can have, you can seek divine wisdom or understanding in different, in ways that

49:24are meaningful to you.

49:26You can have a sacred practice.

49:28You can be spiritual without religion.

49:31And does that mean that church evolves and transforms into something else is not just

49:38about the Christian experience.

49:40It becomes something else because that's what's happening as people are deconstructing.

49:45I don't know, but I think those conversations seem to be happening more and more, and I

49:51love it.

49:52I want to see it happen, but I think in the next decade, you're going to see that.

49:56Well, a question that I get quite frequently in all these conversations going on about

50:01deconstructing is a reconstruction, and from a lot of different angles as well.

50:07For instance, someone who is antagonistic toward me calls themselves the reconstructionist,

50:13which it's really just another way to frame apologetics.

50:18But a question I get is, hey, I'm deconstructing, but I don't want to lose this because I do

50:23find value in the spiritual experiences in the community and things like that.

50:29Can you talk a little bit about what to do after you have, well, you talk about deconstruction

50:36as something that's ongoing, but is there a role for reconstruction?

50:40Maybe not in the direction of Christianity, but how do you get back the parts of that

50:45edifice that you think have value?

50:49So, and I said this in my video yesterday.

50:53They say that when you can reach back to a painful time and touch gently the experience

51:01and the memories, their memories back there that are good, then you know you've reached

51:06a level of healing that can help guide you and inform your future.

51:12And I hope that as people deconstruct, they're able to do that.

51:17They're able to reconcile with the parts of their spiritual journey that was entrenched

51:23in their religious indoctrination that were good.

51:25Some people that's not going to happen, there's real abuse and trauma, and it may not ever

51:31happen.

51:32It doesn't mean that there's anything about their journey now that's going to be less

51:36than.

51:37But in the book, I put that under the framework of like demolish, repair and restore, because

51:41you know, we talk about that place where you start to peel away the layers of the narratives

51:46that were possibly put on you and who you were, what you were to believe, what you're worth

51:51was.

51:52And then you start to repair those things because you realize, wow, there's actual pain here.

51:58And I didn't realize like what these structures had done to me and what the people inside those

52:02structures had done to me.

52:04And what am I going to do now to repair myself?

52:07And then the restoration is reconstruction.

52:11And what does that look like for you?

52:13And that is such an important part of it because it's not about what you believe at the end

52:24of this experience, it's who you become.

52:28And that will then inform how you reconnect with community.

52:34So if you've done this work, then it means that you have reclaimed the power over your

52:40spiritual journey.

52:42Somewhere along the line, many of us, we lost it.

52:44We gave it over to organized religion who then was going to tell us what we believe, how

52:48to worship, how to be the good Christian, how to get to heaven.

52:52And then we kind of went on autopilot when in reality, we should have been doing some

52:57of the journey on our own.

52:59And I think that's like kind of like the Buddhist principle of what it means to internalize

53:04some of that and hold on to our spirituality in that way.

53:12Only then can we then return to some kind of community because we're not now we're not

53:16looking for a savior necessarily or a guru or a church leader.

53:21We're looking for connection and inspiration and wisdom.

53:25And we will also know, we'll cue in to some red flags if something isn't exactly what

53:32it appears to be and we understand what it is that what it is that we need.

53:39So for me, it's not about what you believe, but it also isn't necessarily about community.

53:46For me, I'm unchurched, I don't have a spiritual community, but I'm also like the most massive

53:55introvert that there was and it could be part because of that church experience because

54:00I was at church seven days a week that, you know, I know better than just never say never,

54:06but at this point, I don't see that changing.

54:09I'm very content with where I am, even though I still get invitations to come past church

54:15as I'm like, have you seen my social media?

54:17Are you sure you're asking the right person here?

54:21But that is more important and people always worry like am I doing deconstructing right?

54:28Am I doing reconstructing right?

54:30Well, if you're asking that question, you need to go back and deconstruct more because

54:34approval isn't what you're seeking, it's inner peace, it's inner knowing, it's really

54:41being comfortable with who you are and understanding that this work is ongoing because especially

54:49those of us who carry any kind of trauma, that stuff that you're going to carry with

54:53you for the rest of your life.

54:55So when those triggers rise up, are we going to let it debilitate us?

54:59Are we going to try to dive back in and see that as an invitation to go deeper, to go

55:05to a next level and what do you need in that moment?

55:09So I'm not going to ask you what you believe about the resurrection, I'm not going to ask

55:14you if you took communion, I'm not going to ask you who you're in community with, I want

55:19to know that you are living your authenticity, that you're not afraid of it anymore.

55:26And that point, you know that reconstructing is occurring because for many of us in order

55:32to seek approval, it had to be more about following the authority and seeking that approval.

55:38And as long as we've deconstructed from that, reconstructing is beginning.

55:43And then you can begin to dive into that mystery.

55:48That's where I think mysticism comes in, but that's where I'm headed.

55:52That's volume two.

55:53Yes.

55:54Right.

55:55Yes.

55:56Well, I think that's a wonderful place to end this.

55:59Thank you so much, Carla, for joining us.

56:02The book is deconstructing, leaving church, finding faith.

56:06It is as you're listening to this out now.

56:10So go and grab a copy and thank you, Carla, so much for joining us.

56:16I have so enjoyed this.

56:18This has been an honor.

56:19I really, I really mean that.

56:21Thank you so much.

56:22Well, thank you for being here.

56:23It's been an honor for us as well.

56:24Thank you so much for letting us read this book and walk through it with you.

56:30And thank you so much for joining us today.

56:32Yeah.

56:33Carla on social media, Rev Carla, if you like it, that's right.

56:39Yes.

56:40With a K, that's right.

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57:11Bye, everybody.

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