Ep 76: Pay Your Tithing!

00:00And I see this all the time.

00:02Oh, that's situational.

00:04That's Jesus giving specific guidance

00:06to one individual person.

00:07That's not generalizable.

00:09That's not universalizable.

00:10It's like, I kind of think it is.

00:13- Why would it be in there if it weren't?

00:16- Yeah.

00:16Jesus didn't like watch and walk away.

00:20And then was like, that wasn't for any of y'all.

00:22That was just for him.

00:23- And Jesus said unto him, this is just for you.

00:25Everybody else can turn away for it.

00:28(laughing)

00:30- Hey everybody, I'm Dan McClellan.

00:35- And I'm Dan Beacher.

00:36- And you are listening to the "Data Over Dogma" podcast

00:39where we increase public access to the academic study

00:42of the Bible and religion

00:43and combat the spread of misinformation about the same.

00:47How are things, Dan?

00:48- Things are good, things are good.

00:51I have decided to donate 10% of this podcast to...

00:58Something, to a storehouse.

01:00- Well, 10% of zero is not a lot, so...

01:03- I know, well, one's in zero is really...

01:05What is a podcast, really?

01:07How does one even quantify this?

01:08- Yeah, I don't know, I certainly don't know.

01:10(laughing)

01:12I just got back from DragonCon.

01:14- Yes, sir.

01:15- Some folks saw me there, which is,

01:18it's always a fun experience when people recognize me out.

01:20- Some of our listeners,

01:21and I just got back from a podcasting convention

01:25where I met some of our listeners.

01:27So we are both inundated with meeting some of y'all.

01:32- Yeah, they're in the world.

01:34- It's been lovely.

01:36I appreciate getting to hear from y'all

01:38and hearing about how much you prefer Dan's witty banter

01:42to my own.

01:43Although, I saw something a single person said that.

01:47(laughing)

01:47I saw a funny, somebody was commenting like,

01:49"Ooh, what do you think, Dan?

01:51"Well, Dan, this is what I think, Dan."

01:52And kind of making fun of that.

01:54And it stung a little bit,

01:56but that was on YouTube or something like that.

01:59- Listen, we didn't name ourselves, you guys.

02:01- Yeah.

02:02- That's not our fault.

02:03- And when we were talking about names for the podcast,

02:05we were like, "D&D, Dan, Dan."

02:08We were coming up with--

02:09- Day to overdogma with Dan and Dan, Dan.

02:11Dan does data and Dan does dogma.

02:13- Dude, dude, dude, dude.

02:15So we were trying to make fun of ourselves a little bit, too,

02:17but that's entirely beside the point.

02:22- Yes, exactly.

02:22- We've got a show to do, evidently.

02:24- Oh, yeah, we do.

02:25And I hinted earlier at what we're gonna be talking about

02:29because we're finally gonna do,

02:31and a bunch of our listeners have written in

02:33to ask us to talk about this.

02:35- Yes.

02:36- We're gonna talk about tithing.

02:38- Okay.

02:39- So that's gonna be our first segment,

02:41and then we're gonna keep it in the financial realm

02:45and get into the story in Acts of Anais

02:51and a name that you and I had quite a bit

02:55of discussion and both looked up how we think

02:58it's normally pronounced 'cause you, you know, you're there.

03:02We're both, I've only read it, you've only read it,

03:05but you've read it in multiple languages.

03:07- Yeah.

03:08- So Anais, oh, no, Ananias.

03:11- Ananias.

03:12- And--

03:13- In the Greek, it is sapphira, or sapphira,

03:18but we have found sapphira and sapphira

03:23as alternative pronunciations.

03:25- Yeah.

03:26I'm going with sapphira.

03:27- Yeah, I like sapphira.

03:28- It's just so much nicer to my ear.

03:31- But that comes from an Aramaic name,

03:33Shaphira, where the P is definitely a hard P

03:38'cause it's doubled, so.

03:39So anyway.

03:41- Anyway.

03:42- However you pronounce it, it's both right and wrong.

03:46Whatever you say, it's both right.

03:48Anyway, let's get to our first segment.

03:51What's that?

03:52(upbeat music)

03:55Okay, so for what's that,

03:56we're talking about tithing as we said before.

03:59And, you know, tithing is a thing that seems on its surface

04:04like an obvious, if you were a church going Christian,

04:08especially, it feels like you know what tithing is.

04:12I did look it up just because I wanted to see like what,

04:18because you know, my upbringing is in the LDS faith.

04:22And so my experience with tithing was,

04:26I was told 10% of my gross income was to go to the church.

04:32- Right.

04:34- And other, I've seen other churches make the same claim.

04:3810% of gross, I've heard some say 10% of a net income.

04:42So it's all, you know, these are all interesting questions.

04:46Although somehow I'm going to guess,

04:49and I haven't done a lot of research,

04:50I've poked around in the Bible,

04:52but you know more about it than I do.

04:54I'm gonna guess that's not what we're gonna find

04:57when we go digging in the Bible.

05:00- We're actually gonna find a few different things.

05:02- Okay.

05:03- Because it's not consistent.

05:05And attempts to render it consistent end up getting

05:10into trouble in a variety of different ways.

05:13And so a big question has to do with the fact

05:16that this practice kind of develops

05:18when there are certain conventions and frameworks

05:21in operation within a society.

05:23And those conventions and frameworks

05:25are no longer in operation.

05:27And so how do you reconfigure this practice

05:31to fit these later frameworks?

05:34And there's also an argument to make based on the New Testament

05:39that this is something that doesn't apply to Christians.

05:42And that's certainly an argument

05:43that has been made by an awful lot of people.

05:46- I think there's a lot of Christians

05:48who will be very surprised to hear that.

05:50(laughing)

05:52- Yeah, that's the one thing about Christians

05:54is they're always surprised to hear

05:56that there are people who think other things, so.

06:00(laughing)

06:02- All right, well, let's dig into what it is

06:05we're talking about.

06:06What is tithing?

06:07- So tithing comes from a word that just means 10th.

06:11And this goes back to we have references to this

06:15in Mesopotamia.

06:17We even have the use of this word

06:19all the way back in the Euguritic literature

06:21from between 1500 and 1200 BCE.

06:25So it goes back pretty far,

06:27but it's found in a lot of different contexts.

06:30And it seems to be pretty flexible.

06:33It can be used to refer to basically any kind of 10% tax

06:38that might be imposed on a group.

06:41And that tax can take a lot of different forms.

06:44But it seems originally to have something to do

06:46with a kind of a royal tax.

06:52The earliest, if we take the Pentateuch as historical,

06:57which you shouldn't, but if you do,

07:01the earliest reference that we have to this

07:03is going to be with Abraham.

07:05So we've talked about Abraham and Melchizedek,

07:09King of Sodom,

07:11where the kings have absconded with a bunch of people

07:16and a bunch of goods and Abraham goes after him

07:20and gets back the goods.

07:22And it says he paid the paid Melchizedek,

07:26King of Sodom, a tenth of everything.

07:29And this has to do with enslaved people,

07:32money, any money that would have been among the stolen goods,

07:37as well as animals, livestock, grain,

07:41stuff like that, depending on what was stolen.

07:44And you do have references to this being a tax

07:47on any kind of property.

07:50Now, once you get into the actual legislation

07:53that requires tithing in the Hebrew Bible,

07:56there are three different books

07:58where we find references to tithing.

08:01Leviticus, primarily in chapter 27,

08:04we have a prescription of a tithe.

08:07Deuteronomy, chapters 12 and 14 talk about tithe.

08:10And then we also have the idea of a tithe in numbers 18.

08:15And they're all a little different.

08:17Okay.

08:18They all have to do with different payees.

08:21So, and some scholars have pointed out

08:25that there seems to be a trajectory here

08:27that it starts off being a tax,

08:32a temple tax basically that goes to the priests

08:35and the temple.

08:36There are folks who think the holiness code in Leviticus

08:41is probably the earliest legislation related to the tithe.

08:47And it's supposed to support the temple and all the priests.

08:51Then you go into the book of numbers.

08:56And there you have the priestly layer.

09:01And here it seems to be for the Levites in particular.

09:06Not just for-- - Remind us who those are.

09:08- The Levites would be a priestly family or lineage.

09:13And so it was a particular line within the priesthood.

09:18And then when you get to Deuteronomy,

09:20it seems to be something that you didn't pay the tithe to others.

09:25You gathered the tithe and then you went to the temple

09:30and you ate the tithe at the temple.

09:33So it was something that you were actually consuming yourself

09:37and anything else would go towards supporting the laity

09:42or the people around you.

09:46And so it seems that the tithe is something

09:49that is being allocated to different groups

09:51in different time periods based on the particular

09:53literary layer and interestingly.

09:55And also there are some where it says you do the tithe

09:59on the third year or the sixth year.

10:02It's not an every year kind of thing.

10:04And once we get into later rabbinic literature

10:08in order to try to harmonize what's going on,

10:11they seem to stack some of these tithes.

10:14And so there's a way to read this literature

10:17that actually requires people pay up to 30%.

10:20- Oh, because you got to do your one year

10:23and your sixth year and your whatever you're talking about.

10:25- Yeah, you've got to do multiple different tithes.

10:28And most scholars are like, yeah, that didn't happen.

10:33But there's also an interesting reference

10:36to the redemption of your tithe.

10:39'Cause the tithe here doesn't really talk about money

10:42and most of the prescriptions about the tithe.

10:45You have tithe on livestock.

10:46You have tithe on different kinds of agricultural products,

10:50primarily new wine and olive oil and stuff like that.

10:55And then there's this option to redeem it,

10:59which means you pay money instead of the tithe.

11:04And in one of the literary layers,

11:06it says, yeah, you can redeem it,

11:07but then you've got to pay one fifth more.

11:11- Oh.

11:12- So if you're like, look, I want my wine.

11:15Why don't you just take this money instead?

11:17They're like, fine, but another 20%.

11:20And then in one of the other literary layers,

11:23it's like, yeah, just go ahead and redeem it.

11:25And there's no 20% charge.

11:28So it looks like the tithe could take the shape

11:31of actual money, but fundamentally,

11:34it was supposed to be on goods,

11:38grain, agricultural products, livestock, things like that.

11:41- Yeah, I've got the Deuteronomy, what is this?

11:45This is Deuteronomy 14.

11:47- 14, 23.

11:49- 22, and yeah, so it says, so 22 and 23,

11:54it says, set apart a tithe of all the yield of your seed

11:58that is brought in yearly from the field.

12:00So there's that yearly.

12:02And then in the presence of the Lord, your God,

12:06in the place that he will choose as a dwelling

12:08for his name, you shall,

12:10and that, I didn't catch this until you just said it,

12:13you shall eat the tithe of your grain, your wine,

12:16and your oil, as well as the firstlings of your herd

12:19and flock, so that you may learn to fear

12:23the Lord, your God always will.

12:25So like, yeah, that's confusing.

12:29You're bringing it in, but then it's like, you're eating it.

12:34Is that what I'm to understand?

12:36- Yep.

12:37- Okay.

12:38- Yeah.

12:39- So it's...

12:40- That's a lot less onerous.

12:42- Yeah.

12:43(laughing)

12:45- I'm fine with that.

12:46- Yeah, it's a BYO situation,

12:50where you just gotta show up at the party

12:53with your own grains and livestock and stuff.

12:58So, yeah, and a lot of people think

13:01that this is being written later in a time when,

13:05'cause initially, the idea that it goes

13:07to the sanctuary or to the priest

13:10might have been taking place.

13:11It might have been a vestige of a pre-exilic situation

13:16where you had multiple temples

13:18and you had all kinds of priesthoods

13:20and they needed support.

13:22And so you would go to your local shrine

13:25and you would offer the tithe.

13:27But then by the time of the Deuteronomist,

13:29and particularly the later Deuteronomist layers,

13:32it's all been concentrated, it's been centralized.

13:34It's just the temple at Jerusalem and the priesthood there.

13:39And at that point, they didn't really need the help.

13:43And so it's like, yeah, come bring the tithe

13:46and then eat the tithe and then have a long--

13:48- Have a fun luck, it's gonna be fun, we're gonna--

13:50- Yeah, we'll have a good time.

13:52- Yeah, so you are invited to the cookout.

13:55So yeah, there's not really a way to harmonize everything.

13:59Very clearly what we've got is different takes

14:02from different times and situations

14:05on how to implement this 10% something tax.

14:10And so then we get into Greco-Roman period Judaism

14:16and we get down into the New Testament

14:19and we don't have a bunch of references to the New Testament,

14:22but we do have a pretty interesting one in Matthew

14:26in Matthew chapter 23 where we have,

14:30and let me pull up the text so I can read it, 23, 23.

14:35And here we have Jesus talking to the Jewish folks.

14:43He says, "Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites,

14:47for you tithe, mint, dill, and cumin,

14:50and have neglected the weightier matters of the law,

14:54justice, mercy, and faith.

14:56It is these you ought to have practiced

14:59without neglecting the others."

15:02And so it's an interesting verse because it's kind of,

15:05it's hierarchizing the law.

15:09- Right.

15:10- It's saying, you're doing this one thing

15:12and Jesus explicitly says, keep doing that,

15:15that's good. - Keep doing it.

15:16- Yeah, but you're neglecting--

15:18- We need that dill, you can't neglect the dill, but--

15:22- We can't do, we can't get our Mexican seasoning,

15:26our taco seasoning without that cumin.

15:29But then says you've neglected the weightier matters

15:33of the law and this gets into the prophetic critique

15:37that we've talked about before where it's saying,

15:40"Hey, you're performing the outward praying

15:44"on the street corner to be seen of other people,

15:46"but you're neglecting the part

15:48"where you're not supposed to grind the faces of the poor."

15:51And this is interesting because those Christians

15:55who say we're not supposed to tithe,

15:58Matthew certainly seemed to think

16:00that Jesus wanted everybody to continue to tithe.

16:04Most of the Christians who say we're not under that anymore

16:06are gonna point out, oh, this is part of the law,

16:10the law is done away with,

16:12and it depends on what rationalization Christians have

16:15for what parts of the law are done away with

16:17and what parts are not because some folks will say,

16:19if Jesus mentioned it, then that reups the requirement.

16:24In other words, everything goes away except for whatever law

16:28Jesus said you're still required to follow.

16:30So if you take that approach, then Jesus says,

16:33"Hey, you're still supposed to tithe."

16:35And so there are a lot of folks who,

16:37a lot of particularly leaders of churches

16:40who will point to that and say,

16:41see, you're still supposed to tithe.

16:43But then there are others who will point to Paul

16:45in Romans and Galatians and elsewhere and say,

16:48"Paul says we're not under the law anymore."

16:50So the tithe is a part of that.

16:53So we don't have to do that anymore.

16:55So you got a choice because everybody's got to negotiate

16:59with this and so the question then becomes,

17:03Jesus seems to recognize that this tithe

17:05is still related to produce, goods,

17:10not necessarily money.

17:12And so does that mean that's people who tithe today

17:16or are just supposed to hear some tomatoes from my garden?

17:20That's the only thing I'm growing right now.

17:25Here's a chicken, I got 10 chickens, you get one of them.

17:28Like if it's just livestock and grain and stuff,

17:32it's a pretty, it's not a tall order for most folks.

17:36- Right.

17:36- If it translates into monetary income,

17:40which it didn't seem to in the earliest periods

17:44when most everybody was sustaining themselves

17:48on whatever they could grow,

17:50then that makes things pretty easy.

17:54But these days, most people get an income,

17:57a monetary income and so, is that translatable?

18:00Well, that's debatable.

18:02That's another thing that you've got to negotiate.

18:04(upbeat music)

18:09It seems like, I mean, as I was reading through all of this,

18:12it kept saying things like bring food to the storehouse.

18:16- Right.

18:17- And so, I was thinking about it in terms of like,

18:20what is the modern day,

18:23what would the modern day equivalent be?

18:24'Cause almost nobody makes their money growing,

18:27or feeds themselves by growing their own food

18:30and raising their own livestock and whatever.

18:33And it does seem like, again, I'm sitting here imagining,

18:37like if I were trying to be honest about replicating that,

18:42would I just say 10% of my food budget?

18:49You know what I mean?

18:50Like, if I have a yearly food budget?

18:53- Yeah.

18:54- Throw 10% of that to the church?

18:55I don't know.

18:56Like, that seems closer to the mark.

19:00- Yeah.

19:01And when you consider the way the tithes change

19:03throughout the Hebrew Bible,

19:04it's like once we get to Deuteronomy,

19:06it's like the priests don't really need it as much,

19:08but we're still gonna require you bring it to the temple.

19:12You're just gonna say, hey, eat it right there.

19:14(laughing)

19:16And so, it's still applicable.

19:19And so, there's, you know,

19:20that's something that people have gotta negotiate.

19:24And so, it's, and, you know, unrealized capital gains.

19:29- Right.

19:31- Non-tivable, you know what?

19:33(laughing)

19:34Because it's like, hey, I just,

19:37I just borrowed a bunch of money to start up a business

19:40using my unrealized capital gains as my collateral.

19:44So, I'm making money off of them.

19:46Doesn't that mean they should be titable?

19:50- I think Warren Buffett and, you know,

19:54the other Jeff Bezos would, would rail against this.

19:59(laughing)

19:59- Yeah.

20:00- You're ruining everything here.

20:01(laughing)

20:03- You've entirely missed the spirit of the law

20:06in Leviticus 27.

20:08(laughing)

20:11But, but it does point out it raises the arbitrariness

20:16of a lot of what's going on here.

20:19And yeah, it makes you wonder what is the,

20:24what is the rationalization for it?

20:26And within most Christian communities today,

20:29it's clear that people who are running the church

20:33need a livelihood too.

20:35And, you know, the church needs money to,

20:38to keep the lights on and stuff like that.

20:40So there are those who would point out

20:42that when you look at the New Testament,

20:46there does not seem to be a concern for compulsory money-giving.

20:51And we're going to talk about that a little bit later.

20:55But a lot of people say it's entirely voluntary.

20:57You give whatever you want.

20:59- Right.

21:00- And nobody's required to give.

21:01But then there are ways that they guilt you

21:04and there are ways that they pressure you in certain ways.

21:06- Oh yeah, I came across many different things

21:09on the internet that were like,

21:12God commands you to do this

21:15and it shows your love for God and all that.

21:17- And it is like, it's just a bunch of guilt trips.

21:19And then I stumble on other things that are say,

21:22that basically say, there's not one passage of scripture

21:29telling anyone to give 10% of their money

21:32to a religious institution.

21:34And that was an interesting thing.

21:36When I read that, I was like, wow, that's an intro.

21:39That is a new take that I think,

21:42I think guys like Joel Osteen

21:44would not like anyone to be reading.

21:46- Yeah.

21:47And the rhetoric there is usually,

21:50and this gets into Malachi 3.

21:57You've robbed God and what have we robbed God

22:01in your tithes and authorings,

22:02bring all the tithes into the storehouse

22:04and see if I will not open up the windows

22:06of heaven and pour out a blessing

22:07so much that you can't even bear it.

22:09And so a lot of prosperity gospel folks

22:14will try to convince people that paying tithing

22:18is how you, it's your,

22:20some people call it your flood insurance,

22:24some people call it your fire insurance,

22:27but that this is how you gain blessings.

22:31And you know, there are ludicrous examples

22:35of prosperity preachers getting up there

22:37saying they need a new plane.

22:39- Yeah.

22:40- And so God wants you to scratch a check to me

22:43so I can, I'm thinking of the jerk

22:47when the guy comes in to ask for money.

22:50And he's like, when I took my friends to the Super Bowl

22:54on my private plane, they had to sit up

22:56or you know, the leather was cracked on the seats

22:59and I had to put towels down on the seats

23:02and he's like, not towels.

23:04That's what I think of what I think

23:07of the prosperity gospel preachers,

23:09but I just think, you know, these,

23:11when you think about the prosperity gospel,

23:14it's the pitch is almost always,

23:17you pay me, you pay the church however much

23:23and it's never just 10%.

23:25That seems to be like the floor, right?

23:28And then it's like, and go up from there

23:30and the more you give me the more, you know,

23:34the more blessings will pour down on you,

23:37your wealth will be increased 10 fold or blah, blah, blah.

23:40And when you look at it,

23:43the wealth of the congregation never seems to be going up,

23:46but the wealth of one person in the room

23:48always seems to be going up a lot.

23:50- Yeah, absolutely.

23:52And the idea is that scratching that check

23:57or handing over that money is a way to signal

24:00your sacrifice and your faithfulness to God

24:03so that God will then more greatly bless you.

24:06And the reality is that's something

24:08that's not really quantifiable or observable,

24:11but the person on the other end is certainly appreciating.

24:16They can quantify what you're doing.

24:23- And then not pay any taxes on it.

24:25So that's cute.

24:27- Ah, yeah, yeah.

24:29Speaking, just like that unrealized capital gain.

24:33So what, I mean, I guess the question here

24:39for this segment is, what is the modern equivalent?

24:45Or what should a modern Christian or a modern Jew,

24:51how should they be thinking of their giving

24:54and their giving to their church or their giving to,

24:58'cause I think, I also think that there's a question

25:01of like, there's the tithe and then there's offerings, right?

25:05Somehow there's a difference in that.

25:07And I don't, you know, most churches have very set ideas

25:12about how to think about this stuff.

25:18But is there a way to distill down a biblical idea of this?

25:23Or is it just like you say, you know,

25:26it's different in numbers and Deuteronomy and Leviticus.

25:31So like how could it be, how can you distill that down?

25:35- I mean, the common denominator is in the name, a tenth.

25:40That's really the most consistent thing

25:43you can extract from all of this.

25:45Whether it's applicable to what is it applicable

25:48to what does it go, all of that is debatable.

25:51That's up for negotiation.

25:54And so yeah, in terms of what should a Christian

25:57or a Jewish person do, that's not my place to say,

26:01but I think people ought to be aware

26:05of just how much variability there is

26:08and ought to be aware of these data

26:12so that if they are in a position

26:14or they're trying to figure this out,

26:15you can make a database decision.

26:17They can make a decision based on information

26:20because far too many folks are making decisions

26:22based on either authority that is being lorded over them

26:26or based on the siren call of the prosperity preacher

26:30who is gonna tell you that they're gonna rain down

26:33them blessings upon you, even though Malachi 3 is a threat.

26:38It's God saying, hey, this famine and this drought

26:42and everything, and the social unrest and upheaval,

26:47it's because you're not paying your tithe.

26:50And so when it talks about the windows of heaven

26:52and the blessings, literally it's referring to rain.

26:55- Oh wow.

26:56- God is saying, pay me my money and you'll get rain

27:01and that way you'll be able to grow more crops

27:04and raise more livestock.

27:05- Pay me my more money.

27:07- Yeah.

27:08- I remember my grandpa used to have a thing where,

27:13if we, you know, driving to church,

27:16if he pulled, if he hit a lot of red lights,

27:19he would turn around in the car and say,

27:20who didn't pay their tithing?

27:22So maybe that's it.

27:25Was that what Malachi was referring to?

27:27It was slow drives.

27:29- I don't know what kind of traffic light situation

27:35was going on in ancient Judah.

27:38- Yeah, but I recall the traffic lights being pretty quick

27:43in modern Israel and Palestine,

27:46although there were other kinds of things

27:49that could slow things down, mainly traffic.

27:51But yeah, I think there is translation

27:56that has to take place.

27:58There is negotiation that has to take place.

28:00There's no way that you can transfer a wholesale,

28:04the principle of tithing into the modern world

28:07without making decisions and without having preferences.

28:11And so--

28:12- I love, I know that this isn't how you were using

28:14the word negotiation, but I do kind of love the idea

28:18of like joining a church and then just sort of sitting down

28:21with the pastor or the priest or whatever and saying,

28:24okay, let's get down to brass tacks here.

28:26I'm not going to give you the full 10.

28:29What, let's, what's the wiggle room on this?

28:33It's just that the pawns, star guys come on.

28:37- Yeah, man.

28:38- Best I can do is seven.

28:39- I think we've discovered a new tactic,

28:43a new church tactic.

28:45- Well, it reminds me of Godfather.

28:47Is it the second or the third one

28:49where he's negotiating with the father

28:52about the money that they're going to give to the,

28:57I think that might be the third one, but yeah.

29:00- That would be an interesting way to go

29:04about joining the church.

29:05- It's a new approach.

29:06It's a new approach.

29:08Play this episode for them if they ball

29:10and we'll move, we'll go from there.

29:13All right, well, let's get deeper into the money thing

29:20and dive into our chapter and verse.

29:27(upbeat music)

29:29In this week's chapter and verse,

29:31we're looking at acts.

29:33- Are we starting in four?

29:34- Yeah, we're starting in four, verse 32.

29:38And we're going to go to chapter five,

29:40I think verse 11, yeah, verse 11.

29:42So we don't have to read every word of this,

29:45but basically chapter four is introducing

29:48this concept of a brand of communalism.

29:53It says, now the whole group of those who believed

29:55were of one heart and soul,

29:57and no one claimed private ownership of any possessions,

30:00but everything they owned was held in common.

30:03With great power, the apostles gave their testimony

30:08the resurrection of the Lord Jesus

30:09and great grace was upon them all.

30:11There was not a needy person among them

30:13for as many as owned lands or houses sold them

30:15and brought the proceeds of what was sold

30:18they laid it at the apostles' feet

30:19and it was distributed to each as any had need.

30:24And then they give two examples.

30:27The first example is the good example,

30:31a dude named Barnabas.

30:32He sold a field that belonged to him,

30:35then brought the money and laid it at the apostles' feet.

30:39And then we've got the antithesis, the bad example,

30:42and it's a couple, a man named Ananias and his wife,

30:47Susumthonara, probably.

30:51- Safira, we're going to go with Safira.

30:54- We're going to go with Safira.

30:55We're going to go with Safira, sold a piece of property

30:58and the two of them conspired to keep back

31:02some of the proceeds.

31:03And so what they laid at the apostles' feet

31:05was only, let's say, 90%, let's be generous.

31:10They held back their tithe.

31:12- They kept a finder's fee.

31:15- Yeah, yeah.

31:16And they bring it to the apostles

31:18and then Peter is able to tell

31:20that something is going on here.

31:22- Peter, who definitely has like,

31:24he's got spies in all of the places.

31:27He's got to log into the MLS website.

31:31He knows how much everything's sold for.

31:34- He says, Ananias,

31:38why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit

31:41and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land?

31:43And there are four readers of the Hebrew Bible,

31:46there's an echo here because there's a story

31:49in Joshua chapter seven by a dude named Akhan or Akhan,

31:54A-C-H-A-N.

31:57And what happened there was there was a raid,

32:00they destroyed a town, they kept all the goods,

32:03they were supposed to commit them to destruction.

32:06Karim is the devoted to destruction requirement.

32:11But Akhan decided he was going to keep some for himself.

32:15- As you would, you want to keep a little bit of it,

32:18that's natural. - Yeah, a little for you,

32:21a little for me.

32:22And this five finger discount does not go unnoticed

32:26by the Lord who then there's this famous story

32:31about lining up everybody by families and clans

32:33and tribes and everything.

32:34And then they whittle it down to Akhan's family.

32:38And he goes, yeah, yeah, I kept the stuff.

32:41And they kill him and his family.

32:43- Wow.

32:44- Yeah, so there are echoes of this.

32:47And some of the language is the same too.

32:49The ancient Greek translation of this story

32:52from Judges or Joshua, excuse me,

32:54is some of the Greek there is used in this story.

32:59So Peter accuses Ananias of this and says,

33:02you did not lie to us, but to God.

33:05And so here's where somebody who's being told

33:08they should scratch a check.

33:10So the pastor can bring his friends

33:13to the Super Bowl on good private airplane seats

33:18or thinking, okay, I can't be stingy.

33:22I've got to give everything that I can.

33:24- Right.

33:25- So you did not lie to us, but to God.

33:27Now when Ananias heard these words,

33:29he fell down and died.

33:31- Oh, wow.

33:32- Yeah, we're using some notes.

33:33- That's not extreme.

33:35- Yeah, and it's using some no fault language here.

33:38It's not saying how exactly he died.

33:40There are scholars who would say,

33:41hey, Peter might have pulled out his sword,

33:44which was his won't from time to time

33:46if the Gospels are-

33:49- Crumpy.

33:50- Yeah, so some people's argue

33:52that the apostles might have put him to death,

33:55but the text just as he fell down and died.

33:58And great fear seized all who heard of it.

34:01And so-

34:02- Which it would.

34:03- Yeah, you would think-

34:04- That would be a weird thing to see happen.

34:07- I think fear is a reasonable response

34:10to that particular moment for sure.

34:12- Yeah, and then young men came and wrapped up his body

34:15and they carried him out to bury him.

34:17About three hours later, his wife comes in.

34:20(laughs)

34:21Has anybody seen my husband?

34:23(laughs)

34:24He didn't come back.

34:25Not knowing what happened.

34:27And Peter said to her,

34:29hey, tell me whether you and your husband

34:32sold the land for such and such a price.

34:35And she said, yeah, man, that was a price.

34:39And then he accuses her of the same thing.

34:42You have agreed together to put the spirit of the Lord

34:45to the test.

34:46Look, the feet of those who have buried your husband

34:49are at the door and they will carry you out,

34:52which is kind of ominous.

34:53- Yeah.

34:54(laughs)

34:55- Yeah, that's pretty scary.

34:58Immediately she fell down at his feet and died.

35:02When the young men came in, they found her dead.

35:04So they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.

35:08And great fear sees the whole church

35:10and all who heard of these things.

35:12So yeah, and there's an interesting question

35:18that has been asked of the story is,

35:20okay, so everybody was of one heart and one mind.

35:23Does that mean they were required to,

35:26were they compelled, were they forced

35:28to sell everything they owned?

35:30And the story makes it sound like they just did it

35:33because they were all of one heart and one mind.

35:35So technically, no, they weren't required,

35:39but anyone who objected probably would have been said

35:44to have been not part of the one heart and one mind.

35:47- And if you just reverse the order of those paragraphs

35:50so that the one heart and one mind, everyone's doing it,

35:52is comes after the story of Ananias and Sephira.

35:57It starts to feel a lot like it was compelled.

36:01I'm just gonna say like, it just,

36:03it really matters in what order you tell the story.

36:07- Yeah.

36:07And because there are a lot of folks who would look at this

36:10and say, well, why aren't we doing this today?

36:13And then there are the people who are like,

36:16whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

36:19They never said they were required to do it.

36:22- Right.

36:22(upbeat music)

36:25But it does seem like that's an important question

36:29to ask, right?

36:30Because this is, if this is set up as

36:34kind of the correct way to be, if everyone is good,

36:39if everyone is doing their good Christian best,

36:43it seems like this is set up as like the preferred

36:48economic model.

36:49- Yeah.

36:50- Am I wrong about that?

36:51Or does that seem like a fair assessment?

36:54- I, there are an awful lot of people who think

36:58this is how it was supposed to be.

36:59And so during restorationist movements,

37:02particularly in the 19th century,

37:04there were an awful lot of folks who set up

37:06co-ops and things like that based on this idea.

37:09In fact, I was born into a commune in West Virginia

37:14that was based on this idea that they had all things

37:18in common.

37:20And so that kind of interpretation of this passage

37:23is still ongoing.

37:25Now there's a lot of baggage with contemporary ideas

37:27about communalism too.

37:30- Yes, absolutely.

37:32- And so history has left its fingerprints

37:37on these frameworks and these models.

37:41And so, you know, the, and even within the LDS tradition,

37:46you can go back to the 1930s and you can find priesthood

37:51manuals that are like, yeah, we should increase taxes

37:53so that the wealthy can pay more money in that way,

37:56the people who don't have as much can have healthcare

37:59and they can have education and they can have

38:01all the things that they want.

38:02And then red scare happens and now we have John Birch

38:07society leadership that are still scattered around.

38:12So, even within the LDS tradition,

38:16it all depends on the interpretive lenses

38:19and the experiences you're bringing.

38:20- Well, you go back far enough and the LDS

38:22we're trying to do.

38:25- Yeah. - Communitarianism.

38:27Or there's a story of a place called Orderville

38:30that was supposed to be basically that.

38:32Everybody gave all of their, like the church owned

38:36everything and then everybody got as per their need.

38:40- Yeah, the United Order was, which didn't work out

38:45in the long run and had to be replaced to some degree

38:48with this law of consecration, which is,

38:51it's basically unrealized law of consecration.

38:55- Right.

38:56- But, yeah, it's--

38:58- It turns out that the Ananiasis

39:01as in cepheruses of the world are plentiful.

39:04And you're never going to make your commune happen

39:11without them.

39:11Like they will, the selfish ones will appear.

39:16- And oddly enough, God doesn't seem to strike them down.

39:20- No, no, they never seem to just fall down and die

39:25out of either shame or Peter pulling a gun.

39:30(laughing)

39:31- And this, I think this demonstrates one of the ways

39:34that this story is intended to function.

39:36It's intended to function as this is what is going to happen

39:39because God is watching, God is going to punish you.

39:42And in my book, Adonai's Divine Images,

39:46I talk quite a bit about how deity concepts develop

39:49out of this need to have some kind of watcher,

39:52some kind of way to monitor social behavior

39:55and pro-social behavior so that free writing

39:59can be punished to discourage it and to disincentivize it.

40:04And a story like this is an example of a way

40:07to try to do that, to show that God is watching

40:11and will punish those who try to free ride.

40:13Of course, in real life, that kind of thing doesn't happen.

40:17So you've got to tell stories to scare people.

40:20Unfortunately, what usually ends up happening

40:22is the only people who get scared by these stories

40:25are children.

40:26These stories get shared in order to hammer these ideas

40:33into the psyches of children

40:36so that they grow up with trauma and--

40:39- And it turns out also that the people,

40:41only people who are really free writing,

40:44free loading, whatever are the mega wealthy of our society.

40:49Those are the ones who are just, who just have it easy

40:52and never have to do anything.

40:54And the rest of us can often use a little bit of help.

40:59It does seem like one of the takeaways of all of this.

41:05- I don't know, maybe I'm wrong about this

41:08because it seemed when I was reading about,

41:10and I'm going to go back to the tithing thing,

41:11when I was reading about the tithing thing,

41:14I kept seeing the storehouse, the storehouse,

41:18bring your grains, your food to the storehouse.

41:20- Yeah.

41:22- And it seemed like, that wasn't,

41:26maybe I'm wrong about this, you can clarify this.

41:28Was that just for the use and pleasure

41:33of the priests in the temple,

41:36or was that given to the poor,

41:39or whatever, do we have any idea about that?

41:43- I think it was probably some kind of combination

41:45of the two, because certainly there would have been a time

41:48where the temple would have reached out

41:51and tried to aid the poor,

41:53and there would have been other times when that was less so.

41:57- That makes sense to me, that's just,

41:58I mean, these are the cycles of humanity, right?

42:01You get administrations of anything

42:05that are like more generous, and then less generous,

42:07and then more, and then less, and that's just sort of

42:10how humans are.

42:11- And I think the temple also,

42:12an ancient Israel shifted some,

42:15because there was certainly a time in the earliest periods,

42:18the temple was probably subordinate to the palace.

42:20- Okay.

42:22- And then there was probably a time

42:23when there was a disconnect,

42:26and particularly when they went into exile,

42:30and no longer had the autonomy to have a palace,

42:34and then when they came back,

42:35and they were under the hegemony of Persian,

42:39and things like that,

42:41the priesthood probably had a little bit more

42:43of their own autonomy,

42:45and so the relationship between palace and temple

42:47was also shifting,

42:49and so the temple on its own probably would have been like,

42:53hey, not my job to do all this stuff,

42:57whereas if the palace is born and controlled,

42:59maybe they want to do handout bread

43:05and water and stuff like that.

43:07So yeah, I think it depends on a lot of the personalities

43:10that are involved and the social structures,

43:14and this raises the objection that a lot of people today

43:17have of the notion that the poor should be taken care of,

43:22the notion that, and I'm sure you've heard this

43:26in discussions about taxation, where they,

43:28one, it's the compulsion.

43:31If it's compulsory, then it's not of God,

43:33which, going back to what's going on in Acts,

43:36it sounds pretty compulsory,

43:38because they're saying, hey, we're all of one heart

43:42and mind about this, we're all doing it,

43:44so I think of pieces of flair.

43:48It's like, that's the minimum,

43:51but we'd love to see you do more.

43:54We'll just raise the minimum.

43:56Ah, no, we can't do that.

43:58- You're really not getting into the spirit of this at all.

44:02- Right.

44:03So you can use that sense of belonging as pressure,

44:08which makes clear, you're gonna need to do this,

44:14and then the other objection is always,

44:16well, it can't be a government framework,

44:18it has to be the church doing it,

44:21which is a, well, I suppose it's a discussion

44:26for another day to say something.

44:27- I suppose so, though, I mean, when you think about it

44:29in terms of if you're using ancient Judah as your model,

44:34sure that works when everybody agrees

44:42on what the religion is,

44:44or if you're looking at early Christianity

44:48and you're looking at Peter and Ananias and Safira's time

44:53and whatever, you've got a small group of people

44:57who all agree on the same thing.

44:59- Yeah.

45:00- But that doesn't work under modern structures

45:05where not everybody has that group.

45:08You know what I mean?

45:08Everybody in Judah was supposed to believe the same things,

45:12and therefore they all agreed to what was,

45:16I mean, basically the church could levy a tax, right?

45:19Like the religion could levy the tax.

45:21- Well, yeah, they were like the palace and the temple

45:27when they are combined, the government is the church

45:32to use contemporary terms.

45:34And so there was no entity beyond the church.

45:37We have such an entity today.

45:40And so again, as with the concept of tithing,

45:43translation has to take place.

45:45There's a negotiation that has to take place.

45:48And what I think I see in an awful lot of folks is

45:52the negotiations always seem to go the way of whatever

45:57keeps the most money in my pocket.

45:59- Right.

46:00- And I think if when you're talking about justice

46:05in the prophetic critique sense of the word,

46:11the sense that is used by Jesus in the gospels,

46:14the sense that is used by Micah and Isaiah and Amos

46:19and the others to neglect the weightier matters

46:24of the law, just to serve your own interests is a violation.

46:29But for an awful lot of people, they don't care.

46:32- So yeah, and I think part of the deal that has always

46:36irked me, and I'm looking at Matthew 19 verse 21,

46:41Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect,

46:47go and sell what you possess and give it to the poor,

46:51and you will have treasure in heaven."

46:53Like, I think the problem with the idea of tithing

46:58is that people give 10% of their income to their church

47:04and then they feel that their obligation is done.

47:07- Has been met.

47:08- Yeah.

47:09- And they feel like there's no more,

47:11they don't have to do anything more charitable.

47:15And I personally have a feeling,

47:17like my feeling is that tithing to a church

47:21is membership dues, it's not charity.

47:24I don't feel that that's what charity is.

47:27So when people, you know, I see statistics

47:31that talk about like who gives the most to charity.

47:33And if you include tithing,

47:36it's gonna be the religious people,

47:37but that's not actually charitable giving.

47:39- Yeah, that's paying salaries

47:41and keeping the lights on in church buildings.

47:43- And I don't object to that, you know?

47:46That's not, but it's not the same as doing charity.

47:49And when Jesus said so many times, take care of the people,

47:54I tend to think, and I just think people are not reliable

48:01in terms of like, we need organizations

48:05to take care of our poor and our hungry and our unhoused.

48:10- And churches can't do it on their own.

48:13They're trying and they don't even do,

48:16they don't even do a fraction of a percent

48:18of the spending that is required every year.

48:21- Right, and the thing is that like,

48:24the most, the places in the world that do the best at this

48:28are the ones that, you know, entirely seat it

48:32to government agencies that will take care of people

48:36and re-enfranchise them into society

48:39and all this other stuff.

48:40So I just think it's very, I think the stinginess

48:44of people is very weird, it's understandable.

48:47I get it, we're all kind of stingy.

48:48We all like money and want you to have

48:52as much of it as we can have.

48:54- Yeah.

48:55- But it does seem to me like,

48:56it's not enough to pay your tithes.

49:01If you want to feel like you're obeying as a,

49:06like that, I guess that's what I'm getting at,

49:08is like, you know, in John, first John chapter three,

49:13it says, but if anyone has the world's goods

49:16and sees his brother in need yet clothes his heart,

49:20closes his heart against him,

49:22how does God's love abide in him?

49:24I think if you're, you know, if you want to show

49:28your Christianity, it's not by doing the tithing thing.

49:34It's, you know, that's, it's by opening your heart

49:39in other bigger, broader ways.

49:41- And I think that reveals the motivations as well.

49:45That's something that you find all over the Bible is that,

49:48for instance, in Deuteronomy 15,

49:51you have this idea that you're going to forgive debts

49:56in the Jubilee year and you're going to do all this.

49:59And it says, and you have to do it with a happy heart.

50:04And so it's not just saying this is required behavior.

50:06It's also saying these are required motivations

50:09for the behavior as well.

50:11And if, yeah, if you see this,

50:16if you try to reinterpret Matthew 19,

50:19and I see this all the time.

50:20Oh, that's situational.

50:22That's Jesus giving specific guidance

50:24to one individual person.

50:25That's not generalizable.

50:27That's not universalizable.

50:29It's like, I kind of think it is.

50:31- Why would it be in there if it weren't?

50:34- Yeah.

50:35Jesus didn't like watch him walk away

50:38and then was like, that wasn't for any of y'all.

50:40That was just for him.

50:41And Jesus said unto him, this is just for you.

50:44Don't everybody else can turn away for a second.

50:49- But this young man would have been paying a tithe.

50:54That would have been part of him faithfully fulfilling the law.

50:58And what Jesus said was, sell it all, give it to the poor.

51:02And the idea that you see over and over again

51:04in the prophetic critique, in the gospels,

51:06is that the goal is not just for you to check off a box.

51:11The goal is to actually affect the change.

51:16And so when people talk about,

51:17oh, but that's not the right mechanism for helping the poor

51:21because it's governments.

51:23Like that's one of the dumbest attempts

51:26to try to sidestep what the Christian gospel demands.

51:31Because if you're just saying,

51:34well, if the person doesn't get helped

51:38because you think the mechanism for helping them

51:40is an inappropriate mechanism just as a matter of principle,

51:45then you don't care if the person gets helped.

51:47And that's the problem.

51:48- What you care about is the mechanism

51:50and not the actual help part.

51:53- Yeah, which means it's not about helping other people.

51:55It's not about loving your neighbor.

51:57It's just about getting the credit

52:00and otherwise looking out for yourself.

52:05And I think if there's something that's consistent

52:08throughout the gospels, it's selflessness

52:12is something that I think is fairly consistent

52:16across all four gospels.

52:17And it's something that when you look in the Bible,

52:21there's advocacy for systems and for rulers

52:26and for powerful men.

52:28And then there's advocacy for justice.

52:31And there are an awful lot of people

52:32who want to pay attention to one side of that equation,

52:36to the neglect of the other side of that equation,

52:38even though the other side of that equation is saying,

52:40when you pay attention to the other and neglect this side,

52:43that's precisely what God doesn't want you to do.

52:46- That's even worse.

52:47Yeah, that's so much worse.

52:50- If you're gonna neglect anything,

52:52maybe neglect the dill.

52:55- Yeah. (laughs)

52:57Although Jesus would prefer you did not neglect the dill.

53:00- Jesus would prefer you did all the things.

53:02- That's right.

53:03So if you've got some jalapenos growing in the garden,

53:06if you've got some tomatoes, if you've got some mint,

53:10if you've got a chicken or two,

53:13maybe just a leg of the chicken.

53:16- Check them into the priest.

53:19- That's what Jesus wants.

53:22But yeah, as we are wont to say, it's all negotiable.

53:27There's no clear answer here.

53:30But I think when you boil it down to the negotiation tactics,

53:36some of them are motivated by selfishness.

53:39And some of them are motivated by an honest desire

53:41to try to fulfill what is expected of them.

53:45And I think there's a clear,

53:49I think the folks that are motivated by selfishness

53:51are gathered on one side.

53:53And the folks that are motivated by loving their neighbor

53:56are gathered on the other side.

53:58And I don't think I have to tell you which sides those are.

54:01(laughs)

54:02- All right, well, this is as close to honest to goodness

54:06moralizing as we get.

54:10We have actually tipped into that part of this thing.

54:15That's okay.

54:19- It is the official position of the "Day to Over Dogma"

54:22podcast that people should help the poor.

54:24- Yep, yep, yep.

54:26And do it the best way for the poor,

54:29not the best way for your feelings.

54:31So, there you go, all right.

54:35Hey, thanks so much for joining us.

54:37Listen, the way that we make this show go,

54:39the main way that we do it is through the support

54:43of our listeners.

54:44- We need lots of dill to get this.

54:47- We gotta get that dill.

54:48We're making that sweet, sweet coriander or whatever it is.

54:52Anyway, so if you would like to become a patron of the show,

54:57you can do so.

54:59The show will always be free.

55:00It's always free for you.

55:02But if you would like to become a patron,

55:03you can go to patreon.com.

55:05And there, at a certain level,

55:08you can receive the ad-free version of every episode,

55:12a little bit earlier than everybody else gets it.

55:14So that's kind of fun too.

55:16And you can also, at another level,

55:21you can receive extra added content

55:23that we do bonus content every week.

55:25We answer our patrons' questions.

55:27We have a lot of fun.

55:31So please, if you can,

55:35maybe part with not, we're not asking 10%.

55:39You can do less than 10% of your gross income.

55:43You can go net 10% of your net income.

55:46That's fine.

55:47Go to patreon.com/dataoverdogma

55:51and give us a little bit of your dash

55:53and that would be really appreciated.

55:56If you want to write into us,

55:58it's contact@dataoverdogmapod.com.

56:03And we'll talk to you again next week.

56:05Bye everybody.

56:06Data Over Dogma is a member of the AirWave Media Podcast Network.

56:14It is a production of Data Over Dogma Media, LLC.

56:17Copyright 2024, All Rights Reserved.