Ep 74: The Fabric Conspiracies

00:00Get this, the energy of these two fabrics put together, wool sweater on top of a linen

00:07outfit, collapsed the electrical field as well as wearing a black colored fabric.

00:16Wow!

00:17Now what I'm picturing is, you put the wool sweater over your linen dress or whatever,

00:23and then they both just disappear, and they're gone.

00:27This is the light suddenly as canceled out.

00:30They've canceled each other out.

00:31Now you're naked.

00:32Congratulations.

00:33Hey everybody, I'm Dan McClellan.

00:39And I'm Dan Beecher.

00:41And you happen to be listening to the Data Over Dogma podcast where we increase public

00:45access to the academic study of the Bible and religion and combat the spread of misinformation

00:51about the same.

00:52How are things, Dan?

00:54Glorious, man, it's a great day for a little bit of Bible talk.

01:00We might even do, we might do some debunking of some lunatic stuff.

01:05It's a good day for it.

01:06Yeah, get those bunks out of here.

01:07Yeah.

01:08Bunks are the worst.

01:10We don't need no stinkin' bunks.

01:11That's right.

01:12So the thing we are gonna be debunking, we're gonna do a conspiracy watch thing because we've

01:22got someone who's coming in hot with some good science or so she says, that's gonna

01:30be fun.

01:31And then we're gonna do a contradiction, a Bible versus Bible, where the Bible seems

01:39to say a couple of different things.

01:42So that'll be a lot of fun.

01:45So let's dive in with conspiracy watch.

01:49Don't don't don't.

01:50All right, Dan, poor you.

01:55You get to deal with all of the nutballs out there.

02:00Just spewing stuff about the Bible.

02:03This one's interesting though.

02:05This one, I mean, you know, this one isn't, at least it's not like the coming apocalypse

02:11or whatever.

02:12This one, it seems to be far more docile.

02:17Yeah, it's not quite as harmful, but it's something that I've seen pop up quite a bit

02:23recently on social media and it just baffles me.

02:26I'm like, where do they find these people and why are other people out there like, I

02:32like what this person is saying.

02:34So what we're gonna start with though, before we get to the actual conspiracy itself, is

02:41a prohibition that we find in the books of Leviticus as well as in Deuteronomy.

02:48And this prohibition is on wearing linen mixed with wool.

02:55And so what this is, is fabrics made out of the weaving together of linen and wool fibers.

03:03And now I'm gonna stop you right there because I've heard it many times as, and I'm looking

03:08at the Leviticus right now and it says a garment made of two different materials.

03:14So or two different fibers, depending on what you're going with now, why, why are we nailing

03:18it down to just linen and wool?

03:21Yeah.

03:22So what, what's a passageway looking at Leviticus 1919?

03:24Yeah.

03:25Yes.

03:26So what it says is a shot Nez is the word there that's two different materials.

03:35That's the NRSVUE and shot Nez is the word, but we can find this word.

03:41I think in at least one other place, we find it in Deuteronomy 2211 where it says you shall

03:49not put on or dress and shot Nez.

03:53And then it says wool and linen, okay, woven together.

03:59So shot Nez is a kind of fabric, it's like a kind of fabric.

04:05Yeah, it's like a category of fabric, but here the word probably means, you know, the

04:09forbidden fabric or something like that.

04:14And some scholars think this comes from an Egyptian word, which would support the theory

04:21that the point here is to avoid a specific type of fabric.

04:26This other society's war and particularly maybe Egyptian societies and particularly Egyptian

04:32priests.

04:33Okay.

04:34So it's kind of like they, you know, those fools and their rayon that they like to put

04:39on, we, we're only wool over here.

04:42So it's a way to distinguish us from them maybe.

04:46That might be what's going on here except there's another passage that kind of complicates

04:55that.

04:56Because there are folks who suggest, hey, obviously there's something wrong with wearing

05:02linen and wool at the same time.

05:05And what makes this problematic is the fact that Exodus 28 six is talking about the Ephod.

05:13This is the, this is the uniform that the high priest wears.

05:17We talked in a previous episode about the breastplate where the, the Uriman thumb them

05:22or being tucked away within says they shall make with the Christmas lights all over it.

05:27We, yeah, with the 12, with the 12 stones.

05:31So which always reminds me of the Bush album, 16 stone, which I don't think there's any

05:39connection.

05:40Anyway, Ephod, Exodus 28 six, they shall make the Ephod of gold, of blue, purple and crimson

05:47yarns, and of fine twisted linen skillfully worked.

05:52So that's the NRSV UEs translation.

05:55Oh, the, the issue here is that the words that are translated purple and crimson yarns

06:02in most English translations.

06:05One of them is Tachaelit and the other one is our Gaman.

06:10And this means purple and crimson wool.

06:14This is yarn made from wool that has been dyed these colors.

06:19Right.

06:20And so in other words, the Ephod is made from wool mixed with linen.

06:26Oh, Leviticus Leviticus and Exodus are in a fight right now, there is a bit of, there

06:32is a bit of an incongruity here.

06:35And even Josephus noticed this incongruity.

06:38There's a part in the Judean antiquities where he says that lay Israelites regular old Israelites

06:44and, and Judah heights and Judeans and Jewish folks were not supposed to wear a linen mix

06:49with wool.

06:50That's reserved for the priests.

06:51So the priests, right.

06:52Yeah.

06:53I mean, that's what popped into my mind was that like, yeah, if it's just for the priestly

06:57garb, the Ephod, then that's different than what, what the person on the street is allowed

07:04to wear.

07:05I guess.

07:06Now, now this is presupposing univocality, of course, because it could just be that whoever

07:11wrote Leviticus just really didn't like mixing wool with linen.

07:16Maybe they got spanked when they were where a kid and, and their parents were wearing

07:20wool and linen together and it just left a bad taste in their mind.

07:23I don't know.

07:24Or just something, something itches and they just didn't like it.

07:29So there, we don't know for sure that there was this kind of systematic wool and linen

07:34only for priests rule from beginning to end.

07:37It could just be somebody was like, we couldn't care less if you wear wool and linen and

07:41somebody else was like, Oh, oh, I care.

07:45But there is, there is another passage.

07:46If we go to Ezekiel 44, they're talking about the, the gear that the priests wear.

07:55They who shall enter my sanctuary and approach my table to minister to me.

08:01And it says, they shall have linen turbines on their heads and linen undergarments on

08:06their loins, they shall not bind themselves with anything that causes sweat.

08:11So when you think about linen as a pretty light, yeah, fabric wool, pretty heavy fabric.

08:19And so maybe you don't want to mix linen with wool because you don't want something

08:25that's, that's going to make you sweat or, or, or just you don't want to mix your summer

08:30clothes with your winter clothes.

08:32What are you even doing?

08:34Yeah, cause the last thing you want is to be serving the Lord and you got swampy pits.

08:40Yeah.

08:41It's so true.

08:42It's so true.

08:43Or, or, you know, your undercarriage is just in bad shape.

08:47You don't want any of that.

08:48So maybe it has something to do with sweat.

08:51The long and the short of it is that we seem to have different perspectives and nobody is

08:56explaining this in a way that is clear.

09:00So who knows?

09:02And so that brings up the conspiracy.

09:05Yeah.

09:06Cause someone knows.

09:07Yeah.

09:08Oh, and, and before I get to that though, there are, there are a lot of Jewish folks today

09:15who will, uh, when they want to buy clothing will actually take their stuff to a shotness

09:22expert to have it verified that the clothing does not contain the linen and wool together.

09:29This is the textile version of keeping kosher.

09:31Yeah.

09:32So this is, this is something that is taken very seriously among certain, um, social groups

09:37within the, uh, Jewish tradition today.

09:40Uh, and there's even like a, a rule that you can, you can wear because it stitched together,

09:46you can wear a linen shirt with a wool jacket over top.

09:50Mm.

09:51But you have to be able to take one off without the other.

09:55Cause if they only went on and off at the same time, then they would be considered to

10:00be together a single garment or yes.

10:03And so, uh, and, and this prohibition extends to curtains and tablecloths and towels and

10:08things like that.

10:09Oh, wow.

10:10Yeah.

10:11So, uh, there's, there's a whole, uh, industry for, um, observing the observance of the shot

10:19and as prohibition.

10:22Having said that, that brings us now to, um, to the conspiracy theory, cause I get tagged

10:26in videos quite frequently that will say, that will raise the question we have, why we

10:33don't seem to, there doesn't seem to be any indication.

10:36Now, these, these videos don't ever bring up the stuff about sweat.

10:40They don't ever bring up the fact that the priest is required to wear clothing that mixes

10:45wool and linen.

10:46They always just talk about the fact that wool and linen is prohibited.

10:49Uh, and what they will do is they will cite a person they call Dr. Heidi Yellen who since

10:57then has, uh, since the, the research that is always cited, uh, they are now Heidi Crawford

11:03Yellen.

11:04Um, but they cite this person, uh, they always call her Dr. Yellen.

11:09Uh, I don't know where she got, uh, an actual doctorate, but, uh, she's a naturopathic medicine

11:17doctor and then, uh, has some kind of, uh, doctorate from a, uh, some school, uh, that

11:24does not, that is not, uh, accredited.

11:26So right off the bat, I'm like, hmm, I, I don't know if this person is, is going to

11:33be, uh, on the up and up with all the scholarship.

11:36To be clear.

11:37And I'm going to get some flak for saying this naturopathy is not doctrine.

11:42It's, it's, it's not science based, it's not backed up by any real science.

11:47Uh, it's, it's bunk or rather, I'll just say, I will choose the data over that particular

11:54load of dogma.

11:56Yeah.

11:57Um, don't yeah, don't say it.

12:01Don't forgo real medicine.

12:03Yeah.

12:04To go to a naturopath and go to a naturopath if you want, they, you know, they, they claim

12:09to know a lot about nutrition and stuff and many of them have studied a lot about nutrition.

12:14But, uh, but if they're not going to carry your cancer, you still have to go to a doctor.

12:19And if, if you look, if you want to do shiatsu, if you want to get some acupressure done,

12:23if you want to get some reflexology done, go off, but, um, but I don't know, man, that

12:29you're just spending money on a bunch of stuff that a lot of people really feel good.

12:33There's no data for any of that stuff.

12:35Yeah.

12:36If you want to write in and complain, uh, please address your complaints to Dan.

12:40Um, that'll get you to your Dan also, dang it.

12:46Okay.

12:47So, um, there's a, there's an art.

12:50So this is supposed to go back to research that was published in 2003.

12:53No one that I know who has access to, um, scholarship and, and I've heard from a number

12:59of people, uh, physicians, physical scientists, uh, experts in physics and, and other things

13:07who have tried to track down this research, it all supposed to go back to 2003.

13:10Nobody can find this research from 2003.

13:13However, in 2013 in a journal called Hebrews today, uh, Dr. Yellen published, uh, an article

13:20called linen, the preferred fabric for clothing of healing, healthy living and wellbeing.

13:27And this is supposed to be summarizing the research that was conducted slash published,

13:33a slash shouted into the ether in 2003.

13:38And, um, it begins by talking about electronic properties.

13:42Oh, yes.

13:44And, uh, we have a bullet point on the second or the first page of this article that says

13:49scientists have discovered that linen fibers reflect light period.

13:58You know what?

13:59You didn't need scientists for that.

14:00No.

14:01You just needed it.

14:02Can I see it?

14:03I'm literally looking at linen right now.

14:06It's reflecting light.

14:07Yeah.

14:08Okay.

14:09The light energy aspect of living organisms has been measured by many individuals within

14:12the capital S scientific community.

14:17Ooh, Nobel prize winning Dr. Otto Warburg.

14:21This is a real person identified signature frequency numbers of the average human at

14:2770 to 90.

14:28That is not a real thing.

14:31So I and other professional scholars who make our living doing scholarship have never

14:39been able to find any such claim by Nobel prize winning Dr. Otto Warburg.

14:46Yeah.

14:47And there's a pro, like the second you hear the words frequency, yeah, your, your spidey

14:54sense should be your hackles should be all the way up.

14:58Yeah.

14:59The frequency, uh, spidey senses tingling and, and here's the other thing, 70 to 90.

15:07What?

15:08Right.

15:09Um, as you like you and I were talking earlier and you said frequency units, which I think

15:17is about right.

15:18Like it's 70, you know, 70 shut up.

15:21Yeah.

15:22It's 70 sciences of frequency shut up, uh, reminds me of the Brian Regan skit where he

15:28wants to get somebody to come pick up the packages and he has to enter, uh, height, length

15:35and girth.

15:36Oh, he's like, I, well, the heights this, the length is this.

15:39And I don't know what girth means.

15:41Okay, so it goes on all results with numbers less than 50 were identified as the signature

15:56frequency of chronic disease.

15:58Oh, wait.

16:00Okay.

16:01Gotcha.

16:02Any number less than 15 was identified with those having a diagnosed incurable condition

16:08such as cancer, Oh, okay.

16:11Cancer's all about your frequency is that.

16:14Yeah.

16:15Yeah.

16:16Whoo.

16:17The measurement of linen fabric measures 5,000 signature frequency.

16:23I did not miss speak now.

16:28This was published in 2013.

16:29This, this person has a website where they have an updated version of this paper and

16:33they have edited this part, so that it says the measurement of linen fabric measures

16:385,000 signature frequencies, which is worse.

16:45Yeah, that's different.

16:47Yeah.

16:48Not better.

16:49No.

16:50You haven't improved this.

16:51Right.

16:52Cause we, we now have multiple signature frequencies rather than multiple units of whatever frequency

16:59you're talking about.

17:01How do other fabrics compare plant fibers like cotton and hemp are not a healing fiber when

17:06measuring its signature energy output.

17:09Oh, Oh, linen is healing.

17:11I didn't, I didn't catch that we were healing.

17:14Yes.

17:15Using linen standard bleached and colored cotton measures 40 of energy.

17:23Once again, I did not miss speak.

17:28I'm just going to pause and just say, look, frequency can refer to any number of different

17:34things.

17:35We're just talking about the number of times a thing happens.

17:37So in, for instance, sound, sound is measured in cycles per second.

17:43That's frequency.

17:45Light is measured in, you know, light in, you know, a wave like frequency is wave, you

17:50know, how many times a wavelength will pass by a thing in a second or whatever.

17:56Those are different.

17:57But it's all different, like, you know, 880 cycles per second in sound is concert A or

18:03440 is concert A in light.

18:07That would be meaningless.

18:08It doesn't make a sound.

18:09So it's like these, like frequency can refer to any number of things, you know, this, the

18:16tachometer on your, or the, the, uh, is it the tack?

18:21The measures, the number of cycles that your engine does, the RPMs.

18:27That's a frequency measurement, but you can't just say 20 frequencies.

18:31Yeah.

18:32So, um, I'll, I'll pause here to point out that usually when people report this, when

18:37people make videos where they share this and they say Dr. Heidi Yellen published research

18:41in 2003 that found that they will, they will just arbitrarily add in megahertz.

18:47They will say 5,000 megahertz, 100 megahertz, but, but that's going to run into a problem

18:55here.

18:56So, but I, but I want you to, um, I want to quiz you.

18:59Okay.

19:00So that, because there's a revision on this sentence as well.

19:04Okay.

19:05So I'll read it again from the 2013 paper standard bleached and colored cotton measures

19:0940 of energy, guess what the revised sentence says.

19:16I mean, I can't even, I, I can't fathom like it could be, we could be revising to 40,000.

19:26We could be revising of energy into like a unit or something, but I have no idea.

19:33Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.

19:34Reaching colored cotton measures 40 units of energy.

19:41What are those units?

19:42Doesn't matter.

19:43Shut your mouth.

19:44That's what those units are.

19:46Energy units.

19:47Yeah.

19:48EU.

19:49Now here, here's where we get into trouble with the folks who say that this is megahertz.

19:53The good news is that organic unbleached cotton measures 100 angstroms, which is a

19:59normal, but not a healing fiber.

20:04So we have a clue.

20:05We actually have a unit of something, but it's not a unit of, of frequency.

20:10No, it's a unit of length.

20:12Yeah.

20:13And particularly an incredibly small unit of length.

20:16Yeah.

20:17Yeah.

20:18It's like a, it's like a, well, I just looked at that.

20:20It's 10 to the minus 10th of a meter.

20:24Yeah.

20:25It's like, like 0.01 nanometers.

20:27Yeah.

20:28So a 100 angstroms is like one or 10 nanometers.

20:33I don't remember exactly which it is, but we're talking, if we're talking about light

20:38frequencies and, and she started off this section by saying scientists have discovered

20:43that linen reflects light.

20:45Yeah.

20:46That's right.

20:47So we, we have to be in the electromagnetic spectrum.

20:49We are, this is radioactive.

20:51This is, this is X ray to gamma ray levels of that.

20:57So this would be a wavelength, which would mean this, this frequency is off the charts.

21:03Yeah.

21:04And deadly, like you don't, you don't want to wear something that is emitting gamma rays.

21:10Now, or X rays, right.

21:14So the people who say this is megahertz are on the other side of the universe from what's

21:21going on here.

21:22Oh, right, because they're talking, if this is megahertz, they're talking about wavelengths

21:30that are literally a billion times longer, right?

21:34Like a hundred megahertz is like a three to four meter wavelength, like, yeah.

21:43For those of you who are lost in the science of all of this, just know that like in the

21:47electromagnetic spectrum, which is what light, visible light is part of that spectrum and

21:52electromagnetic waves, the wavelength, you can calculate the wavelength by the frequency

22:00and vice versa.

22:01You can those relate to each other.

22:04And yes, these people are just randomly choosing, whatever, just just units that don't apply

22:11to anything because it doesn't work to just say 40, whatever 40 of energy, 40 of energy.

22:23So the way this is being represented in this paper in a journal from 2013, it makes it

22:30very clear that this person does not have the foggiest idea what they're talking about.

22:36But the folks who then pick up this, this quote unquote research and then share it online

22:41and say, oh, they must mean megahertz are even further on base with what they're talking

22:47about.

22:48She goes on the silk fabric measures 10, which would fail to support health in the human body.

22:55So your silk undies are probably making you sterile.

23:01Could it be a low number because of its origin?

23:03Silk is produced from a quote, unclean insect.

23:07Could silk be also unclean because the industry is reportedly using spider webs to increase

23:13the strength of the fabric blah, blah, blah, blah, rayon measures at 15 signature frequency.

23:22Also updated to 15 signature frequencies.

23:25Pure wool measures 5,000 angstroms were back to angstroms.

23:33So for an individual desire to be well, the best recommendation from the instructions of

23:38Torah is to wear linen.

23:40Also Tori gives a warning of wearing wool and linen together proved in scientific studies

23:45to be accurate.

23:46The energy of these two fabrics now get this.

23:50The energy of these two fabrics put together will sweater on top of a linen outfit, collapsed

23:56the electrical field as well as wearing of black colored fabric.

24:04Wear the two textiles measure 5,000 signature frequencies when put together.

24:10These canceled each other out and brought measurable weakness to the human body.

24:18Wow.

24:19She's turned into a Faraday cage is what she did.

24:26When you have wool that evidently vibrates light at 5,000 angstroms when it bounces off

24:33of your wool and you have linen that does the same, they do not cancel each other out.

24:38That's not how it works.

24:41Now I want what I'm picturing is you put the wool sweater over your linen dress or whatever

24:47and then they both just disappear because the light suddenly is canceled.

24:53They've canceled each other out.

24:55Now, now you're naked.

24:57Congratulations.

24:58Flax fabric is an excellent filter protecting against chemical exposure, noise and dust.

25:05Chemical exposure.

25:06I can't imagine a worse fabric to keep you from chemicals than linen.

25:12When clothing reduces solar gamma radiation by almost half, thereby protecting humans wearing

25:19linen.

25:20Wow.

25:21I'm not going to read any more of that, but in short, this is pure and utter nonsense.

25:28Yeah, we haven't cracked the code, I'm afraid.

25:32This person does not understand how frequencies work and notice that according to the text

25:39of the Bible, when you're talking about torats, talking about mixing them together, and here

25:45it says, don't put a wool sweater over a linen shirt, which is not in the text and also is

25:53explicitly not what is prohibited according to the Jewish tradition that has developed

25:57ever since.

25:59So yeah, highly, highly, highly problematic attempt to try to bring pseudoscience in to

26:09try to explain what's going on in this prohibition in Leviticus and also in Deuteronomy 22.

26:18You know, it's, it, I forgive people, not, not everybody cares about physics.

26:27And that's fine.

26:28You don't have to be interested in it the way I am.

26:31I enjoy physics.

26:32I'm not a physicist, there's plenty I don't understand, but like, you know, basic stuff

26:37like how waves work and all that sort of thing.

26:39I've got some foundation in, but woof, if it just, if you don't know anything about physics,

26:49that's fine.

26:51But don't trust non physicists about it.

26:54Because that all I'm saying is like the second someone says, oh, energy, oh frequency, oh,

27:01blah, blah, blah, maybe turn around and walk away.

27:05You don't don't at least don't take your fashion advice from them.

27:09Yeah.

27:10Get up from the table.

27:11If you're doing speed dating, just move on to the next person.

27:16Go dig the bell and go dig the bell yourself and move on to the next person.

27:25Woof.

27:26That is, that is amazing though.

27:27I find that delightful.

27:28That's, that's a real prohibition in Leviticus and Deuteronomy.

27:30Not explained anywhere, contradicted in other places if we're assuming that there's actually

27:36something wrong or inappropriate about the mixing of those two fabrics.

27:40But yeah, when you have all the data, when you are aware of what's going on Ezekiel 44,

27:46what's going on in Exodus 28, it kind of makes sense that, hey, we got a bunch of traditions

27:52here that came together and, you know, they don't all line up big deal.

27:58But trying to, trying to suggest that there's some kind of magical powers undergirding this

28:04or science powers or whatever.

28:07Yeah.

28:08Yeah.

28:09If you don't worry, you will not get cancer from getting, from having the wrong clothes.

28:14That's, that's unless it is, unless it's radioactive or, or, or putting out x-rays in

28:22which case, yeah, do get new clothes in that case.

28:26All right.

28:27Why, why couldn't, why couldn't Jesse have been like, uh, Mr. White, look, the frequencies

28:33cancel out.

28:34We can't be working.

28:37Yeah, I, I just, I just love the thought of Walter, Jesse is a breaking bat.

28:41Shut the hell up.

28:42Yeah.

28:43Indeed.

28:44All right.

28:45Well, speaking of fabrics and, uh, and clothes, uh, let's, let's move on to, uh, to our, our

28:56fun little Bible versus Bible, and the reason that we're talking about, uh, fabrics and

29:05clothing is that, that we are going to talk about, uh, owner of the very famous, multi

29:11colored dream coat, Joseph, yeah, um, Joseph and the, and the coat of sleeves, uh, which

29:20is sleeves.

29:21Yes.

29:22The, this is.

29:23Please tell me that's the right translation of it.

29:25And we've just, yeah, that's, that's the right translation.

29:28How much?

29:29Well, it uses the.

29:30How many sleeves do they have?

29:31Well, it's not have sleeves.

29:34Well, some people think it might have been, uh, something with extra long sleeves or something

29:39like that.

29:40But it, yeah, the, that it was multi colored is just an inter, an interpretation of, of

29:45what that might mean.

29:46Oh, yeah.

29:48So, uh, but I have sleeves.

29:51So someone tell, uh, Andrew Lloyd Webber that he has to rewrite his, his musical Joseph

29:59and the amazing coat of sleeves.

30:02Yeah.

30:03Okay.

30:04Well, that's not what we're talking about though.

30:05No, it's not what we're talking about.

30:06I, I just pulled up the, uh, the, we're looking at Genesis 37.

30:09I just pulled it up in the NRSVUE and as, and as you're talking, reverenting obviously

30:14Joseph and the amazing technical dream coat, um, the NRSVU has decided to title this section,

30:22section Joseph dreams of greatness.

30:24Oh, yeah, um, of stardom maybe, but yeah, exactly, but we're talking about Joseph being

30:32sold into enslavement or slavery.

30:37Yeah, because we've got a problem in the story and, and I want to look at a chunk of text,

30:42Genesis 37 versus 18 through 36.

30:46And this is the story of, of Joseph being sold into slavery, but, um, I want to just

30:51highlight a few parts of it that raise questions, uh, because we, we seem to have a convoluted

30:58narrative here.

31:00So, um, they see the brothers, they see Joseph and they conspire to kill him.

31:05Um, and they said, yeah, we're going to kill him, we're going to throw him into a pit.

31:09And we'll just tell dad that, uh, some evil beast have devoured him.

31:14Right.

31:15And then Rubin heard it and says he delivered him out of their hands and said, let us not

31:20kill him.

31:21Rubin says, let's just throw him in the pit and we'll leave and, uh, we won't hurt him.

31:29And then it says, uh, it's a compromise.

31:31Yeah.

31:32So, so the plot is to kill him.

31:34And then Rubin's like, let's not kill him.

31:36Okay.

31:37Okay.

31:38Pass.

31:39Yes.

31:40When Joseph.

31:41Yeah.

31:42Just as good.

31:43Joseph came to his brother and they stripped Joseph of his coat, his long sleeved coat.

31:46Um, and they took him and cast him into a pit and the pit was empty.

31:51There was no water in it.

31:52And they sat down to eat bread and then, uh, they, they look off in the distance and they

31:58see some Ishmael lights coming from Gilead.

32:02And now Judah says to his brethren, why don't we not kill him?

32:08Let's sell them to those Ishmael lights and let our hand not be upon him for his or brother

32:13and our flesh.

32:14Um, so already we've got our first like, huh moment when they've already decided not to

32:21kill him.

32:22And then one of them's like, wait, let's not kill him.

32:24Yes.

32:25Exactly.

32:26Okay.

32:27Like, I got it.

32:28We'll sell them to the Ishmael lights.

32:30Right.

32:31And then it says then they're passed by Midianite merchant men and they drew and lifted up Joseph

32:37out of the pit and sold Joseph to the Ishmael lights for 20 pieces of silver.

32:44So we've got Ishmael lights and we've got Midianites.

32:47Somebody is drawing Joseph out of the pit and selling him to Ishmael lights.

32:52Um, now I'm going to skip down to the end because Ruben comes back and Joseph's not

32:56in the pit and he falls to his knees and yells out, why God, no, he didn't say that, but

33:02he rents his clothes.

33:03Um, and then the very last verse of this section and the Midianites sold him into Egypt under

33:09potter for an officer of pharaohs and captain of the guard.

33:14Okay.

33:15Wait a minute.

33:16Yeah.

33:17We got Ishmael lights.

33:18The brothers are like, ah, let's sell them to the Ishmael lights.

33:20Somebody draws them out of the pit and sells them to the Ishmael lights.

33:23Then the Midianites sell him into Egypt.

33:27Yeah.

33:28So, but I mean, we also have the, the, the Midianites selling them to the Ishmael lights.

33:32So we've got a Midianites double dip in here.

33:35If that's who drew him out of the pit and sold him.

33:38So says it right there.

33:40Well, it says they're passing Midianites by and they drew and lifted up Joseph out of

33:44the pit.

33:45But there, there are folks who will argue the brothers are, are standing, sitting there

33:50saying, Hey, let's sell them to the Ishmael lights.

33:53And then the narrative is just like, look, Midianites.

33:56And then it says, it says that the brothers then decided, okay, the Midianites are gone.

34:01Let's take him out of the pit and sell them to the, so the antecedent of they, the they

34:07who drew him out of the pit is like for all intents and purposes, the, the immediately

34:13preceding antecedent would be the Midianites, but it's not impossible that the antecedent

34:18is intended to be the brothers.

34:21So it depends on how you, how you interpret it.

34:25But we've got a bunch of problems here.

34:28So now there's one thing that some people will do to try to resolve this.

34:32They will say that the Midianites were the Ishmael lights.

34:38And there is one piece of evidence for this.

34:41There's a part in the book of judges and like judges, 19 or something like that where

34:47they compare the Midianites to the Ishmael lights.

34:50They, they basically say they're the same people.

34:53But this is, this is based on a, a cultural convention, having to do with jewelry that

34:59a certain group of people wears.

35:02And so it doesn't really indicate, Hey, every time you see a Midianite, that's also an Ishmael

35:07light.

35:08And every time you see an Ishmael light, that's also a Midianite.

35:11It's kind of a, a weird little narrative, Hey, these guys are like these guys over here.

35:17But the bigger problem for this particular narrative is that the text itself explicitly

35:22distinguishes them.

35:23Right.

35:24That is, Hey, their Ishmael lights come in and then some Midianites walk by and then

35:28there were some Ishmael lights.

35:30And if you read Midianites as the antecedent for they drew and lifted up Joseph out of

35:34the pit, then the Midianites sold Joseph to the Ishmael lights, meaning they are different

35:39groups of people.

35:40Right.

35:41But a lot of people don't want to accept that.

35:43Well, and also like, if you're not saying, if you're saying, and the NRSVUE does make

35:51the distinction and says that when the Midianite merchants came by, his brothers pulled Joseph

35:58out of the sister and sold him for 20 shekels of silver to the Ishmael lights.

36:05But why, why are we commenting on the Midianites?

36:08Like when this one group happened to pass by, then the brother, like it makes no sense.

36:18We're still in the muck.

36:19There's still, there's still muck and mire happening.

36:23But scholars have noticed this is a problem for a while and a lot have not been satisfied

36:28with just saying, no, the Ishmael lights are Midianites, man, don't you get it?

36:32That doesn't satisfy thoughtful people.

36:37But you can actually isolate portions of this story and separate this story out into two

36:44free standing independent narratives with their own beginnings, their own middles, their

36:48own ends and they make perfect sense.

36:50I will read them separately and you can see the two different stories that were woven

36:57together to create this third story.

37:05So to be clear, you are going to read all of the words from this section of what we have

37:11in the Bible, but we've taken something that's interwoven, unlaced it.

37:17Correct.

37:18So that now it's just some of the verses are in one of these stories and some of the verses

37:22are in the other.

37:23Correct.

37:24Okay.

37:25Go.

37:26And so I'll read one and then the other.

37:27So the first one begins in verse 18.

37:28And when they saw him afar off, you know what, I'm, I was reading in another translation

37:34where I actually highlighted the verses that are different.

37:37I'm going to read in the NRSVUE because I'm sick of that other translation.

37:43And they saw him from a distance.

37:44And before he came near to them, they conspired to kill him 21.

37:49But when Rubin heard it, he delivered him out of their hands saying, let us not take

37:54his life.

37:55Rubin said to them, shed no blood, throw him into this pit here in the wilderness, but

37:58lay no hand on him that he might rescue him out of their hand and restore him to his

38:04father.

38:05And they took him and threw him into a pit.

38:07The pit was empty.

38:09There was no water.

38:10Then they sat down to eat.

38:12Now we're going down to 28.

38:14When some Midianite traders passed by, they drew Joseph up out of the pit.

38:20When Rubin returned to the pit and saw that Joseph was not in the pit, he tore his clothes

38:25and returned to his brothers and said, the boy is gone and I, where can I turn?

38:31Meanwhile, the Midianites had sold him in Egypt to potter for one of Pharaoh's officials,

38:36the captain of the guard.

38:37So basically, they, uh, they throw him in the pit and then they went sit down to eat.

38:45So Midianites come by and are like jackpot, he's in the pit, the Midianite pit guy pick

38:53him up, take him off to Egypt to sell him.

38:56Rubin comes back and is like, crap, he's not in the pit.

39:01What am I going to do now?

39:03Okay.

39:04So that's, that's one version of the story where Rubin is the one who, who seeks to save

39:09Joseph and the Midianites are just happen, happening by and they're like, Hey, free pit

39:15guy.

39:16And you're right.

39:17All of that made sense.

39:18It went in an order that made sense.

39:20There was nothing confusing.

39:22Yeah.

39:23That went smoothly.

39:24Yeah.

39:25And then we have, uh, the other story and they said to one another, here comes this dreamer

39:31come now.

39:32Let us kill him and throw him into one of the pits.

39:34Then we shall say that a wild animal has devoured him and we shall see what will become of his

39:39dreams.

39:40And we go down to 23.

39:42So when Joseph came to his brothers, they stripped him of his robe, the ornamented robe

39:46that he wore and we're going to skip 24 in the beginning of 25 and looking up, they saw

39:53a caravan of Ishmaelites coming from Gilead with their camels carrying gum, bomb and resin

39:58on their way to carry it down to Egypt, then Judah said to his brothers, what profit is

40:03it?

40:04If we kill our brother and conceal his blood, come let us sell him to the Ishmaelites and

40:08lay and not lay our hands on him for he is our brother, our own flesh and the brothers

40:14agreed, lifting him out of the pit.

40:19They sold him to the Ishmaelites for 20 pieces of silver and they took Joseph to Egypt.

40:27Then they took Joseph's robe, slaughtered to goat and dipped the robe in the blood.

40:31They had the ornamented robe taken to their father and they said this, we have found,

40:35see now whether it's your son's robe or not and blah, blah, blah, blah, boom.

40:40So we've got an entirely separate story where they're like, hey, let's kill him.

40:46And Joseph's like, let's not kill him.

40:49Let's just throw him in this pit.

40:51And first safe keeping just for a while.

40:56And they were like, oh, Ishmaelites, hey, let's, let's, or actually they don't even,

41:01the pit doesn't even come into play in this, does it?

41:03Nope.

41:04No Ishmaelites at all in that first time.

41:05Yeah.

41:06When Joseph had come on, they stripped Joseph of his coat and they lifted up their eyes

41:10and looked and saw a company of Ishmaelites.

41:13So they're like, oh, let's just sell him, sell him to the Ishmaelites.

41:16And they sold Joseph to the Ishmaelites and they brought Joseph to Egypt.

41:19So different story, and it's Judah who is the one who says, what if we didn't kill him?

41:26Right.

41:27And then they sell him to Ishmaelites.

41:29No Midianites involved, no Ruben involved, no pit involved and completely different story.

41:35No, they're still a pit.

41:37Wasn't there still a pit?

41:39I think they said what they said, we're going to cast him into a pit.

41:42We're going to kill him and cast him into a pit and say some an animal got him, but they

41:47grabbed him, they took off his coat, and that's when they saw the Ishmaelites.

41:51And so they sold him to the Ishmaelites.

41:54Right.

41:55Yeah.

41:56So the pit is only theoretical.

41:57Yes.

41:58The pit is just one of the possibilities.

42:00Yes.

42:01Okay.

42:02So we've got two entirely different stories of how Joseph was conspired against by his

42:08brothers and was basically made his way into Egypt.

42:12Yeah, one Ruben tries to save him, the Midianites intercept him and sell him into Egypt in

42:17the other.

42:18Judah is the one who saves him and sells him to Ishmaelites who take him to Egypt.

42:21So somewhere along the way, the editor of this version of Genesis was probably like, ah,

42:31I really like both of the story.

42:34They're both fine.

42:36They can keep both of them and so try to weave it together to create one single coherent

42:43narrative, but it results in these problems with the Midianites being confused with the

42:50Ishmaelites and Ruben and Judah both, uh, alternating between saving him from death.

42:58And who's selling what to whom is like who's selling whom to whom is a becomes very, very

43:05speedy.

43:06Yeah.

43:07Yeah.

43:08I mean, it's, I mean, if you read it together, the way it's presented in my Bible, in the

43:13Bible, what you're seeing is, I mean, you could be forgiven if you thought that like,

43:20four exchange, different exchanges took place, like the brothers sell them to the Midianites,

43:24the Midianites sell them to the Ishmaelites, Ishmaelites, somehow the Midianites get him

43:30back.

43:31Yeah.

43:32Then he sold to Potiphar, that's, that's, but none of that is clear.

43:40So yeah, I like the pulling it apart.

43:45Um, it definitely makes, it definitely makes it more clear.

43:49Do we have any, uh, I mean, all we have no, we have no manuscripts, evidence of this.

43:58It's, it's just a way to make sense of it.

44:01Yeah.

44:02It makes sense because this, because this stitching together would have happened long

44:05before any manuscripts that we have existed.

44:08Right.

44:09Yeah.

44:10You know, it's, it just calls to mind a, you know, the wrangling that happens in any room

44:17where there's a whole bunch of people trying to make decisions about a text or whatever.

44:22Yeah.

44:23It always ends up being just a nightmare of like compromises and, and stuff and like

44:27maybe, you know, you, I can imagine a bunch of rabbis all sitting around going, well,

44:33I need this part.

44:34I like that part.

44:35Whoa.

44:36Well, I like that part.

44:37I want that to stay in and they're like, okay, we'll just include it all, I guess.

44:40That reminds me.

44:41I'm, I'm going through the copy edits on my new book and, uh, in the, in the introduction

44:46to my book initially, I had a story about how I was going over why I use certain language

44:53that I use.

44:54Yeah.

44:55So finally in my social media stuff, I say Adonai instead of pronouncing the divine name.

45:00Uh, and I say in this book, I'm going to spell it out, uh, just because that will make it

45:06be more accessible.

45:07It'll be easier.

45:08This shouldn't present a problem except for future Dan when he has to record the audio

45:12book and future Dan can suck it.

45:15And, um, and then I, I have a little footnote that, uh, is like a reference to, uh, um, to

45:22a psych with the, with Sean and Gus harmonizing, suck it, um, and then later on, I, I talk

45:30about how I'm using, um, uh, I am going to use gendered pronouns for God, even though

45:37normally in my social media stuff, I don't, but here just because I don't want it to be

45:41very confusing.

45:42I want it to be more accessible.

45:44I say, and I'm all, I'm exclusively talking about the God of the Bible who is gendered

45:47male throughout, uh, I am going to use gendered pronouns and that shouldn't present much of

45:52a problem, not even for future Dan.

45:55Now, when it went to the editors, they struck the part about, uh, future Dan can suck it.

46:03And you know, when it comes time to, to, um, record the audio book.

46:07So I'm reading through that today.

46:10And I just get to the part at the end of the other discussion where I say, and this shouldn't

46:13be a problem for future Dan, and I'm like, okay, I know the history behind this, but

46:19somebody who doesn't know this, they're like, what future Dan, what's going on here?

46:25Yeah.

46:26So, um, yeah, and this is, and people are like, well, why would somebody leave a contradiction

46:31in there?

46:32I was like, Hey, these are professional, multiple professional editors have gone through this.

46:36And as a result of their editing have left this just kind of, um, a conceptual orphan

46:44here.

46:45Like, what is this doing here?

46:46This doesn't make any sense because we've never referred to this before.

46:48So it happens.

46:50Yeah.

46:51This kind of stuff happens when you're editing texts, even today, even when multiple professional

46:55editors are looking at a text.

46:58So yeah, this, uh, this story is a mess.

47:02Yeah.

47:03And again, like the, one of the themes of our show is embrace the mess.

47:09Like we don't, like I, it's so funny when people feel that they have to impose perfection

47:16on a 3000 year old story or whatever that has been, you know, was probably orally passed

47:24down from person to person for a while.

47:27And then, yeah, you know, different oral traditions were written down and like, it's

47:32going to be messy.

47:34Yeah.

47:35And that's not a problem.

47:36That doesn't mean the Bible's not true or whatever.

47:38It just means the Bible's not, you shouldn't be literalite.

47:41Yeah.

47:42Yeah.

47:43Yeah.

47:44And, and I think it makes it so much more interesting when you're like, Oh, there are

47:47two different versions of this story.

47:49And, and you can think about, well, why would it have been important for one editor to have

47:53Ruben be the one to do it?

47:55Why would it have been important for another to have Jew to do it?

47:58Yeah.

47:59I think that makes, that makes engaging with the Bible more interesting, more fun.

48:04Otherwise, you know, all you're doing is just spending all your time trying to save the Bible

48:09from itself.

48:10Yeah.

48:11You just find yourself just defending dogmas and you never get to appreciate it for what

48:17it actually is.

48:19You have to just defend believing that it is something it is not.

48:24Well, I think that is a wonderful place to close out our conversation.

48:29So we'll just leave it at that.

48:32You don't need to defend the Bible.

48:33You can just let it defend itself.

48:35It's right there.

48:36It's fine.

48:37Great poet once said, let it be indeed.

48:40It's good enough.

48:41It's good enough.

48:42All right.

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50:47Bye, everybody.

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