Ep 69: Gospel Authorship with Michael Kok

00:00When it comes to authorship, I know these debates get heated and apologetic versus anti-apologetic.

00:08I would just probably defend maybe three theses, where I would say the gospels are formerly

00:15anonymous.

00:16The titles of the gospel according to Matthew Martin Luther John are secondary, so they

00:22were added by scribes, and that we can kind of look at the traditions in the second century

00:27and play a piece together, why they have scribed them to those figures, and I think those Christians

00:33in the second century were answering questions in the second century, so they're more helpful

00:37for how did they receive the gospels, and maybe not necessarily are they historically

00:43accurate to how the gospels originated.

00:46Hey everybody, I'm Dan McClellan, and I'm Dan Beacher, and you're listening to the Data

00:54Over Dogma podcast, where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible

00:58and religion, and we combat the spread of misinformation about the same.

01:03How are things Dan?

01:04Man, things are good.

01:06It's a million degrees right now in Salt Lake City, but yeah, I got 96 right now, it was

01:12a hundred yesterday, so, you know, we're out here melting, but that's all right, that's

01:17all right.

01:18Fortunately, we're spending today talking to a Canadian, so maybe that'll cool things

01:23down.

01:24Yeah.

01:25We're going to aim at the first half of our two rhetorical goals for this podcast, increasing

01:31public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion by bringing on a longtime

01:35friend of mine, and a specialist in gospel authorship, Michael Koch.

01:41Welcome to the show, Michael.

01:42Oh, thanks for having me, long-time fans.

01:46Well, appreciate that very much, and we go all the way back to the the aughts back when

01:52we were bibliobloggers.

01:54Yeah, 2009 was when I started that, so I lecture and do the same thing, so I copied

02:00him.

02:01Yeah, it was those are different world back then.

02:06But Michael is the New Testament lecturer at Moreling campus, or Moreling College Perth

02:12campus, excuse me, in lovely Australia on the on the Western 40, where you can drive

02:20for a few days to get to the east coast.

02:22But are there places to stop along the way, or is it pretty rough?

02:26I think it's pretty rough all the way.

02:28I've never tried to drive myself.

02:30My wife had when she had to bring over a car from Sydney to Perth.

02:35Wow.

02:36Yeah.

02:37I think you just have to keep going.

02:38Just provision yourself well and watch out for kangaroos.

02:43Yes, exactly.

02:46And Michael, last year you published with Fortress Press, a book entitled Tax Collector

02:51to Gospel Writer, Patristic Traditions about the evangelist Matthew.

02:55And you've done books on the Gospel of John and the Gospel of Mark, particularly on authorship

03:00of those.

03:02Would you mind letting the folks know a little bit about yourself and maybe what got you

03:06interested in gospel authorship?

03:10Sure.

03:11Yeah, so I grew up in a Baptist home.

03:16So when I was going to do undergrad, I was going to Bible college thinking maybe it'd

03:21be a pastor.

03:22And then I liked what my professors were doing and thought I could be the same thing.

03:26Yeah.

03:27But in that context, it was also a Baptist college.

03:31Learned the critical scholarship, who wrote the gospels, when, where, or just the New

03:37Testament in general, but in that kind of big context where you can try and say, "What

03:42scholarship's saying?

03:43How can I integrate that into my world?"

03:47If I may interrupt briefly, I was at Trinity Western University for one of my masters degrees.

03:53And there were some folks coming there from M. Dives and from Bible colleges.

03:58And that was a big discussion was we're learning this critical scholarship.

04:04And there seems to be a giant gulf between the academy and the pews.

04:09And my understanding is that, you know, between seminaries and Bible colleges, you have a

04:13broad range of approaches to this where some, sometimes they're teaching you this just so

04:19you can debunk it.

04:21Sometimes they're teaching you this, not expecting you to incorporate anything into, you know,

04:29what's being discussed in the, in the, the congregations, I'm curious what your experience

04:35was who your professors, what their approach was and, and how you responded to it.

04:40Yeah.

04:41I mean, I thought they did pretty honest stuff.

04:44I mean, I think you probably had a range of perspectives on the faculty.

04:49And even, so I teach you a Baptist college now, I think there's one principle, the freedom

04:53of conscience.

04:54Okay.

04:55I follow the evidence where you think it leads, but also think about how it then applies to

05:01your worldview and your practices.

05:04So like I know, for instance, when you talk about an issue like pseudo-nimity, where all

05:10the New Testament books are in by their authors, you might get some faculty would do what you

05:15said to ban the traditional authorship.

05:17But others would try to say, well, here's the arguments for and against, and you follow

05:23your conscience, where you think that leads and you, you make peace with that.

05:27I don't know.

05:28Okay.

05:29You'd like to do that.

05:30Theologically.

05:31And I think that I was just teaching class on the gospel of John.

05:33And similar thing, I tried to give a balanced take on the authorship question, but I got

05:39lots of student papers defending those who might be Apostle John in Ephesus.

05:43And I'm like, if they make a good argument, the position they'll can't be bring.

05:47So yeah, I think that was the approach I received.

05:51But that was where I gave my undergrad, but my masters and PhD were more in public universities.

05:59So I went and did a Masters in Religious Studies in my hometown.

06:05And I didn't know what to, that's what got me into the second century stuff, because it's

06:10just hard to find new ideas where everyone talks about Paul or Mark, but if you look

06:17at the reception of a biblical book, you have 2,000 years to work with.

06:22So that's where I kind of got into the second century Christianity and they're starting

06:26to develop the traditions about the authors of the gospels and their systematizing doctrines

06:33and try to organize church government.

06:38So after that, I went and did my PhD in England at the University of Sheffield.

06:44It was in biblical studies, but it was also a public, it was established by a scholar who

06:50was independent of the Church of England.

06:54So it wasn't officially connected to the church, like a lot of departments are in the UK, or

07:00at least theological programs.

07:03And so with biblical studies, they were interested a lot in the cultural and political reception

07:07of the Bible.

07:09And so I took my second century and then combined it with my interest in gospels, and that's

07:13how I did exploring gospel authorship and that's trying to niche, I've tried to carve

07:18out.

07:19Yeah.

07:20I like that, you know, I was deep into my adulthood before I knew that there was any

07:27controversy at all regarding the authorship of the gospels.

07:33I just took it for granted that the, you know, if the gospel had a name on it, that's who

07:38wrote it.

07:39And it was a law, I was surprisingly old before I knew that there was any question about that

07:47whatsoever.

07:49So maybe you can set the stage with, you know, where the idea of the authorship, you know,

07:55the attributed authorship started and when people started to question that.

08:03Sure.

08:04Yeah.

08:05I mean, I can share it from my own experience, I remember trying to memorize some of the arguments

08:10in the book, Case for Christ, which came out when I was a teenager.

08:13Strobel, right?

08:14Yeah.

08:15That's right.

08:16Yeah.

08:17So, you know, we're really convincing to me at that time of my life.

08:21But one of the scholars interviewed tried to say, well, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, they're

08:26not well, like they're not the famous Peter or Paul or so, why would the church attribute

08:32the gospel for these names, so let's try an argument that they're reliable attributions

08:38because of they're not as significant.

08:40Matthew is an apostle, but he's not one of the leading apostles.

08:44And Mark and Luke are, they're associated with the apostles Peter and Paul.

08:49Well, the only case he doesn't work for is John because he's one of the three main apostles

08:55in that group of 12.

08:56So, but yeah, I remember learning these arguments and trying to defend it and then going to

09:00undergrad and learning the arguments for and against the traditions.

09:06I think what I would want to say is that when it comes to authorship, I know these debates

09:13get heated and apologetic versus anti-apologetic stuff online.

09:19So I think what I wouldn't want to deny that eyewitnesses could have played a role in the

09:25formation of the gospel traditions or some of the earliest gospels were in a generation

09:30of Jesus' life, or even that you can't make a case for some of the traditional authorship.

09:35I would just probably defend maybe three theses where I would say the gospels are formerly

09:42anonymous.

09:44The titles of the gospel according to Matthew Mark, Luke, or John are secondary.

09:49So they were added by scribes and that we can kind of look at the traditions in the

09:54second century and play a piece together why they made those, why they have scribed them

10:00to those figures and traced the history and development of that.

10:05And I think those Christians in the second century were answering questions in the second

10:09century.

10:10So they're more helpful for how did they receive the gospels and maybe not necessarily are

10:16they historically accurate to how the gospels originated.

10:19So that would be the approach I'd start with.

10:24Now your statement that the titles, the attributions of authorship seem to be secondary.

10:30My understanding is that that is primarily based on the fact that our earliest manuscripts

10:35where we have attribution of authorship, they're found in different places.

10:39They haven't seen to settle into a specific framework, which is not usually how things

10:46are copied when they're part of an original.

10:50That's usually how scribes will go about adding information to manuscripts.

10:54Is that accurate or is there other data that influence that conclusion?

10:59I'd have to think of it.

11:00I think the main issue is just that the manuscript evidence is late.

11:04So I'm not aware if there's any manuscripts that lack the title.

11:08There's an article by Simon Gatherko on the title of the gospels, which really just compiles

11:14all the manuscript evidence.

11:16And I think he's put it on his academia edu page.

11:20So it's really accessible so you can kind of look at that.

11:25So I think the main issue is that the titles are found probably in the late second century.

11:33And so I guess, and I know there's some renewed debate about dating some of those manuscripts.

11:38I know Brett Longbury has written some things where you date them later than some would traditionally

11:43be assigned.

11:46But let me put it this way.

11:47I think with the title, the gospel according to you, it sort of implies that there's more

11:54than one gospel because otherwise you wouldn't say, you'd say like maybe the gospel of Mark.

12:02But because you say the gospel according to Mark, there's another one according to Matthew.

12:09So my take would be, this is probably when the four gospels have been collected together

12:16into an authoritative collection and you need to differentiate them in some way.

12:20So usually this one's according to Matthew and this one's according to Mark or Luke.

12:26And then the manuscript evidence comes after that collections before it.

12:32And some of the figures in the late, like Ironaeus, who's a bishop in the late second

12:37century, he knows those titles.

12:40So he's probably inherited the gospel manuscripts with those titles attached.

12:45And then everyone defends that collection.

12:47And my understanding is that Ironaeus is the first to actually attribute the four gospels

12:52to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John as we know them.

12:54Is that accurate?

12:55Yeah.

12:56Well, he's the first that really makes it explicit where he will, like let's say he will quote

13:04Mark and he will strive it to a gospel according to Mark, which helps, right, that before him.

13:16So we'll probably dive into these traditions.

13:19But like we have an early second century of bishoping papies who lives in what's Marty

13:26Turkey, the Amnesia minor, and he talks about Mark and Matthew and something they wrote.

13:34And there's some discussion about what he's referring to.

13:37You get other early second century authors who, there's a, they'll quote things the Lord

13:43said or did, but there's debate about are they quoting our gospels, or are they quoting

13:49oral traditions that they know, because they don't assign them to a named author.

13:55Okay.

13:56So for instance, I know Ignatius, who's a bishop in Antioch in the early second century, he

14:03gives a phrase about how Jesus was baptized to fulfill all righteousness.

14:08That seems to be picking up on something the gospel Matthew says, because it's Matthew's

14:13way of defending the bat.

14:15Mark just tells the baptism of Jesus.

14:17Matthew tries to say, Jesus was bat with John Baptist protests about, you should, I should

14:22be baptized by you and not you by me, that Jesus tells him, this is done to fulfill all

14:27righteousness.

14:28So it looks like Ignatius is picking up on, sorry, Matthew, but he doesn't attribute

14:32it to Matthew, he just sort of references it and moves on, right?

14:39Or another text called the Divicain, it's talked about a prayer that's found in a gospel.

14:46It looks like the Lord's prayer and it looks like Matthew's version of the Lord's prayer,

14:50but he doesn't say the gospel, Matthew just, he knows it's a text called the gospel, unless

14:56he's talking about the oral good news that Jesus preached.

14:59So that's the difficulty in the first half of the second century.

15:04And you have folks like Justin Marter, who are referring to the memoirs of the apostles,

15:09just kind of generically.

15:11Yeah.

15:12And Justin, I think there's really good evidence that he does know Matthew Luke when he's quoting

15:19the memoirs of the apostles, like you'll cite traditions that are unique to them or traditions

15:26where it looks like again, Matthew, Luke are editing Mark and Justin knows the editing.

15:32That, sometimes it says, we don't know everything he cites, like he talks about tradition about

15:39Jesus being born in a cave.

15:42And so you do get that given the gospel or another oral tradition.

15:48I think he knows Mark as well because he talks about how Jesus nicknamed Peter or James and

15:54John the sons of thunder, and that's unique to Mark.

15:59Some scholars think he knew John as well, but it's a little bit, he seems to know John

16:04it's more questionable if he considers it one of the memoirs of the apostles or not.

16:09He knows John saying, but you have to be bored again, connects that with baptism.

16:15But we actually cite some memoirs or some debate about is it just the synopsis and other things

16:21are, sorry, is it just Matthew, Mark and Luke.

16:26The one, I bring an article about this, because he does talk about the memoirs of the apostles

16:32and those who have followed them.

16:34And some try to say, well, that's him saying, Matthew, John or apostles and Mark and Luke

16:39are their followers, the followers of Peter and Paul.

16:44But I think it's more likely he thinks all of the apostles are written jointly by the apostles

16:49as a collective group and their followers, he may be more like their scribes or secretaries.

16:56So I don't think he could establish those the four traditional titles.

17:01I think you're right, but Ironius is our earliest evidence, though I think it was in place before

17:07Ironius.

17:08Okay.

17:09Yeah.

17:10And then Papius is coming, this is around like 120, 130 CE or even later than I actually

17:20would date him earlier around 100 to 110.

17:23Oh, really?

17:24Well, I think what the reason is so you see this seems to imply like he's coming about

17:32when Ignatius around and also remember the Roman bishop, but he seems to put him earlier

17:38in the second century.

17:41Papius seems to be writing before some developments that happen like he's not refuting Marcia

17:46and there are these various other Christian teachers that were developing ideas like Marcia

17:52and her valentinus or basilides.

17:56The tradition, the reason he gets needed to as late as you do, there was these fragments

18:02that seem to suggest that he mentioned resurrected saints to the time of Hadria who are alive,

18:11but it seems like the fragments aren't actually, it comes from a later summary of UCBS's history

18:17in the 4th century and they weren't actually quoting Papius, he was quoting someone else

18:22named Quadratus.

18:23Okay.

18:24So I think the best evidence is Papius is probably early second century and I think

18:30that, so that might be a majority of you about a lot of people.

18:36So there's William Shodl who's read some things about this, Aria Kortner, Robert Gundry, there's

18:44some names I can go.

18:48Okay.

18:52Now Papius has, as you mentioned before, the references to what may be the gospel of Marc

18:59and the gospel of Matthew, but they don't fit as conveniently as many people would like

19:03into what we understand today about Marc and Matthew.

19:08Could you briefly talk about what Papius seems to be talking about and the relationship

19:14you think that might have to the gospels as we understand them?

19:18Yeah.

19:19So what Papius tells us is he has a tradition that he says is from the elder who he has

19:26a prologue where he wants to learn things from a true and living voice.

19:33So he's asking who he calls the elders, what the disciples of the Lord said, he means a

19:38bunch of disciples like Peter, James, and then he means, so what they said, and then he

19:44means what John the elder and Aristion were saying.

19:50So it's a really convoluted prologue where it's like, are the elders the same group as the

19:55disciples or two separate groups and the elders are passing along the words of the disciples?

20:00Is this elder John a separate figure from the John, the disciple who heads.

20:06So John said things.

20:08The elder John is saying things, which seems to imply that the elder is alive while the

20:13other John's passed away.

20:14Right.

20:15Because I've heard that argument a bunch that this is the beloved disciple who's reporting

20:19things to Papius, but that's not that's an assumption that some folks make.

20:25I, yeah, and I don't go there myself.

20:29I think the elder John, mostly you could say someone in Asia minor who is some figure that

20:35Papius consulted and that he eventually gets confused with the apostle John.

20:41So in the late second century, irony is just says Papius is a hearer of John and he seems

20:46to implies he calls him John the cycle of the Lord, but he thinks I think he means the

20:51apostle.

20:52Well, you see, yes, he's quoting Papius.

20:56So Papius's books haven't survived.

20:59We actually only hear quotes from him and you see this as the one who's reporting these

21:03quotes in the fourth century.

21:05He reads the prologue and thinks, no, he was talking about two different.

21:09There's a apostle John in the elder John, but anyways, the elder John has this tradition

21:15that Mark was the interpreter of Peter, which probably needs his translator that Peter was

21:23preaching as the needs demanded from his audience and that Mark wrote it down, but then he makes

21:30a statement that Mark wrote down not in order and he says, these are the things Lord said

21:35and did.

21:38So Peter's recalling anecdotes about things Jesus had did and Papius wrote down, but he

21:46didn't get the order right because he's a follower of Peter.

21:50And then Papius goes on to say Matthew wrote down what he calls the oracles in a Hebrew

21:59language and everyone interprets, so I'd say translate them as best they can.

22:04So that's what he gives us.

22:07The reason it doesn't, there's debate is so Papius calls Mark and accounts of the things

22:13the Lord said and did, but he also calls it account of the oracles of the Lord.

22:18And then he calls the oracles, right?

22:20Yeah, this is logia in Greek, right?

22:23That's right.

22:24The sayings.

22:25Yeah.

22:26So what are these sayings?

22:29So are these oracles said by Jesus, which would make it like, I think in the past video,

22:34you did a sayings collection of things in Jesus said, or are they oracles about Jesus?

22:42It's a bit when you call it oracles of the Lord, it's a bit of PQS about the person being

22:49said about.

22:50Yeah.

22:51The subjective or objective genitive that old came out.

22:54Yeah.

22:55So that'll trip you up every time that'll get you every time.

22:59I'm taking Greek and Hebrew is what helped me learn grammar as well as the languages.

23:08So I take it that the oracles about the Lord, Stephen Carlson wrote a big book on Papius

23:14where he thinks it's a collection of prophecies about Jesus.

23:18But I think, and some other scholars would back me up, would say, it's oral traditions

23:23about Jesus.

23:25So things people spoke about the things that Jesus said and did.

23:30So that's how I would.

23:31So I do think Papius is referring to narrative gospels that consist of things Jesus said

23:37and did.

23:38And it was the oracles describing the sayings.

23:41And the analogy would be in the first Peter, he talks about those who speak the oracles

23:46of God to, you know, he's talking about gifts that people are giving.

23:50So yeah, they're preachers talking about Jesus.

23:55And so according to the tradition, Peter is talking about Jesus and Marx writing it down

24:01and Matthew is talking about Jesus and other people are translating it.

24:05That's how I would understand what Papius is saying.

24:08I get where it's not a slam dunk book because it would have helped if Papius quoted one

24:12of the gospels.

24:13So if he was like Marx, interpret Peter, he wrote the beginning of the gospel of Jesus

24:18Christ, then you can say, oh, that's the first verse of Mark and he's talking about Mark.

24:23So we don't have Papius's works.

24:26We just have these triadmentary traditions that he set.

24:30So there is going to be debate.

24:32I tend to think he is talking about Mark and Matthew, maybe we could talk about reasons

24:37why or why not, but I would love to hear the reasons why or why not.

24:42And I also think I seem to recall a recent blog post of yours where you talked about the

24:47idea of, I don't remember the exact language you used, but not necessarily versions, but

24:52that things were being edited, that they were being maybe disseminated, and then more editing

24:58was going on afterwards.

25:00I'd be interested to hear about both why you think those are references to what we have

25:06today or in the relationship of this process of editing to that.

25:12Yeah.

25:13Well, we do the first question.

25:15So like when Papius says, not an order with Mark, there's some debate about whether he

25:22means chronological order, like that, oh, Mark was not I witness of Jesus, he was depending

25:28on the things Peter preached that Peter is giving sermons on different times and Mark

25:33just wrote down and couldn't get the what happened when, right?

25:38But there's another, some scholars say, no, it means more like rhetorical order that if

25:46you look at gospel Mark, sometimes it looks like stories are put together very loosely,

25:55like it's like, and immediately Jesus went out to the synagogue and did this miracle.

26:00On the seventh, he was going along the grain fields, so the connections are like it's not

26:08very structured narrative.

26:10And sometimes things are arranged topically where it's like, oh, put the parables in chapter

26:13four and put some religious controversies in chapter two to three.

26:19One exception is when you get to Jesus, what's called the passion, the account of Jesus suffering

26:25when he goes to Jerusalem, he teaches in the temple, gets arrested and executed and rises

26:30again.

26:31That's very close narrative.

26:32So that's why there's some debate about whether that was originally connected story

26:39in Christians were like, we have to tell this story about why this happened to Jesus.

26:45They came up with this narrative of his passion, and then they had other independent stories.

26:51So he told this parable one day and he told, he did this miracle one day and Mark's just

26:56putting things together.

26:58But someone like the elder John says, oh, I don't like the arrangement of this.

27:04Or the other thing is, I think it looks incomplete.

27:07You know, Mark just starts, Jesus is baptized, he has some prophecies about Jesus, and then

27:12he's at John Baptist.

27:14And the way Mark ends, the tomb is empty, the young man dressed in lights that he's risen

27:20and he's going to Galilee, tell Peter and the disciples, the women don't say anything,

27:26and it ends.

27:27Right?

27:28So you can think of a ancient reader saying this looks incomplete and not well organized.

27:34And then they turn to Matthew's gospel, and they say, Matthew starts out with the birth

27:39story.

27:40You know, you have Jesus genealogy, you have his virgin birth, so what you get the Christmas

27:46stories.

27:47It has five discourses of Jesus' teachings that are well organized, most famously the

27:54Sermon on the Mount, but you'd see in any Jesus movie where Jesus is preaching on a mountain.

27:59It ends with the resurrection, and Jesus is on a mountain giving the great commission

28:05to his disciples, to make disciples of all nations.

28:08So it seems it's complete, well organized.

28:11I think papius is comparing these two gospels.

28:15So that would be my case.

28:18I would say in the early reception of these gospels, that's how they took papius.

28:23So I think when Justin calls them the memoirs of the apostles and their followers, he might

28:29be influenced by papius.

28:31Because papius is, we have an apostle, Peter and Matthew, and we have their followers, Mark

28:37and the unnamed translators, he helped, Matthew.

28:43One work thing I would say is, Mark was really unpopular in the early church, like it's rarely

28:50cited.

28:51We have fewer manuscripts of it, like papius says it's not an order, he gets this nickname

29:01called stump finger, which they try to explain what this means, but I think it might be a

29:06illusion to it not being complete, or I think Clementa of Alexandria talks about Matthew

29:14Luke, the gospels of the genealogies, published openly while Mark wrote some notes that from

29:19Peter's preaching, and Peter did not officially endorse them, so there's all this ambiguity

29:24about Mark in the early church.

29:27Because I think if they wanted, they saw Matthew, and they really liked Matthew as all these teachings

29:33of Jesus, it's this complete narrative, while when you have Matthew, you say, why have Mark?

29:39Because Mark has over 90% of Mark's content is in Matthew, and then Matthew also has Christmas

29:46stories, Easter stories, and all Jesus teachings.

29:50So I think that's the reason for the preference, so I think without papius' tradition that

29:55Mark was attached to Peter, Mark would not survive, probably.

30:00He'd be reading Matthew Luke, because they took over Mark's contents.

30:06I think the reason Mark continued to be copied and circulated is because you had this early

30:12tradition of papius linking it with Peter, who's the chief apostle, that's the case at

30:17least I think.

30:18That's why I think there's, he was just talking about those two gospels, but I recognize this

30:23debate on that.

30:25Interesting.

30:26I wanted to get into specifically Matthew, because that's, you know, your latest book

30:34is about the authorship of the gospel of Matthew.

30:39And it starts with this problem of a story of a tax collector that doesn't quite match

30:45up between different gospels.

30:47Talk a little bit about that and why the name of the tax collector might have been changed

30:55or what may have happened there.

30:57Sure, sure.

30:59So I think when I said, like the first thesis about the gospel is being formally anonymous,

31:06is that when you read the gospel of Matthew, you know, no authors introduced, like it just

31:11starts like this is the account of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of Abraham, the son

31:16of Abraham.

31:17So it just jumps into the mirror.

31:19It never uses the first person to say, you know, here's who I am and how I'm connected

31:25to the subject.

31:27So it's just internally, it doesn't say anything about the author.

31:32You know, Matthew barely appears in the gospel, like he shows up twice.

31:37So I think if this was Matthew, you'd probably get more of his recollections about what he

31:43himself experienced with Jesus.

31:46Yeah, because a good percentage of the book, Matthew couldn't have been present for the

31:52story that he's telling.

31:53Yeah.

31:54Well, especially the narrative of Jesus' death and resurrection, because you know, the 12

31:58right way.

31:59Right.

32:00Or of course, the birth stories he could be there as well.

32:04So yeah, he's introduced in chapter 9, so everything before that.

32:09So onto that story about the tax collector.

32:12One instant where Matthew does make a prominent appearance in this gospel is he's at the Tolbu.

32:19So it's a Tolbu near the village of Capernaum.

32:22So people are probably transporting goods from one area to another, and he's collecting

32:26tolls on these things.

32:28And Jesus sees him and says, "Follow me," and he leaves everything and follows him.

32:35The problem is in the gospels of Mark and Luke, same story, but the Tol collector is

32:42called Levi.

32:43And Mark is called Levi the son of Alphaeus.

32:48So he's trying to figure out what's going on here.

32:53So in the early church, we have a couple fourth century commentaries on the gospel, Matthew.

32:58And one of the explanations they give is Matthew was so humble.

33:03He was willing to use his more known name to confess.

33:06Yeah, I was this bad Tol collector, and Jesus called me out of that.

33:12While Mark and Luke wanted to protect Matthew's reputation, so they used his less known name

33:16to be by.

33:17It's not an interesting way to reconcile all these things.

33:23But so the problem, Richard Balcom is really the famous book on Jesus and the eyewitnesses.

33:31And it's a conservative book that defends a lot of the traditional authorship with the

33:35gospels, but he does research names.

33:38And he says, "It's not very common for it to have two common Semitic names, like Matthew

33:44and Levi."

33:45So you have other characters like Paul himself, his Semitic name is Saul, and then he goes

33:49by Paul.

33:51Or John Mark is another, and John's a Semitic name, Mark's Roman name.

33:57So it's very odd to have the same person have two common Semitic names.

34:04And there's no indication that Jesus gives him that, like, you could argue that maybe

34:10his name Levi and Jesus gave him the nickname Matthew, but there's no story about this.

34:17So that's different from, you know, you have a apostle named Simon.

34:22And according to Gospel, Matthew, Jesus says you'll be called Peter, which means rock, right?

34:29So and the other problem is in none of the lists of the twelve is Matthew ever also known

34:37as Levi.

34:38Right, which would clarify that, or some of the copies actually added Levi's name into

34:44the list of the twelve, they gave him a laugh.

34:47So some people didn't, they were like, "Are these two different characters Levi and Matthew

34:51or what's going on here?"

34:54So the way I solve this problem, so I think Mark is the earliest gospel, or a lot, it's

35:00shorter.

35:01The gospel, Matthew improves its grammar and style, there's all kinds of arguments for

35:06marketing first and Mark has Levi the total.

35:11So gospel, Matthew repeats the same story, sometimes word for word, it's only a single

35:17verse, but he changes Levi to Matthew.

35:22And so scholars debate, why did he do this?

35:26He does a similar thing where the gospel, Mark has a woman named Solome at the empty

35:33tomb of Jesus, and Matthew, the gospel writer, it's not Solome, it's the mother of James

35:41and John, so he doesn't mind switching one character for another.

35:45So we'll just question why, so there's different theories about that, that I can go into if

35:51you're happy.

35:52Well, I mean, one of the things that's interesting is that, so is the idea that the appearance

36:01of this character, this now, now known as Matthew in the in this toll booth, you know,

36:06this tax collector, is that why this book was then attributed to Matthew as a thing?

36:17Because it's such a small little moment, yes, it's kind of is so weird.

36:22Yeah, that's what I suspect, but so I guess the theories are like, if you if you agree

36:28with me that Levi was in Mark, and he's been switched out for Matthew, scholars have kind

36:33of asked why.

36:35So what theory is, they wanted, it's such a significant moment of Jesus calling a disciple,

36:41and they wanted it to be one of the twelve apostles, so he kicked one at random.

36:46So that's one approach.

36:49Some people have tried to connect Matthew with like, be done things with the name Matthew,

36:54which is very close to the Greek word for disciple, so they tried to say, oh, he was

36:59playing a word game and that's why he put Matthew, this disciple who's been called.

37:05Some people have tried to say, well, maybe Matthew was a source for this gospel.

37:10So it kind of functions like a footnote, right?

37:12I'm going to put him here, so that you know, Matthew is a major source.

37:17The theory I adopted, I think it's possible, maybe Matthew was a toll collector, but people

37:24didn't remember his story.

37:26So Mark had this story, it's a very simple story, and Jesus calling another toll collector

37:31named Levi to be his disciple, and the gospel writer said, that'll fit, right?

37:37Let's tell that as Matthew's back story.

37:40So maybe they had some source that said Matthew, so you have all these lists of the twelve

37:46apostles, and only in the gospel Matthew, do you have Matthew's name attached with the

37:51toll collector?

37:53So could it be?

37:54Yeah, they picked up that from a list and then gave the back story, they had Mark's

37:57gospel, told this great story about Jesus calling a toll collector, and that was the

38:02basis for it.

38:04So you know, different theories, scholars will argue that, but I wonder if Pecus sees

38:10that detail.

38:11You know, he has Mark, sees Matthew here and says, oh, Matthew must be correcting the account

38:18to Mark, and that's why, so I wonder if that's connected to that detail that they noticed

38:24that difference.

38:26Interesting.

38:27Otherwise, I guess you could say, if you don't think Pecus was talking about Matthew,

38:33so let's say you think Pecus was talking about a saying's collection, or a collection

38:39of scriptural prophecies they attributed to Matthew, then what you could argue is that

38:44later in the church, they looked at papius writing Matthew wrote some oracles, and they

38:50looked at the gospel which singles out Matthew and they connected with you.

38:54So that's, I guess, another approach you could say.

38:57Okay.

38:58I think it was instrumental in why Matthew contributed Matthew.

39:05Now, what about the papius' claim that this was all written in Hebrew?

39:14Is this linked with the fact that Matthew is so concerned for Hebrew Bible prophecy?

39:20Is this something to do with the gospel to the Hebrews?

39:24What are your thoughts on the Hebrew character of Matthew?

39:29I think he's probably just mistaken.

39:33I think it's an easiest option to make that, oh, if it's one of the twelve who wrote this

39:38and their apostles aren't gallantly that they was spoke their native language.

39:43I mean, he thinks the same level of Mark because it's Peter preaching and Mark translating

39:48as his interpreter, right?

39:50So I think it's a natural assumption, but I think he's, I think you're right though

39:54that he notices some of the features of Matthew that it's really linked to the Hebrew Bible.

40:02Like it's the gospel that constantly uses this phrase.

40:05This was done to fulfill the prophets, such and such, or it really goes out of the way

40:10to portray Jesus as like a new Moses, giving his law and the Sermon on the Mount, or it

40:20seems to be written to a Jewish audience.

40:22So Mark will sometimes explain Jewish customs, and Matthew will delete all the explanations.

40:27So it's like he presupposes the audience.

40:30So I think those are the two things, thinking it's by an apostle and noticing that was probably

40:35written to a Jewish audience leads papiest to infer that was originally written in Hebrew,

40:41because all of the copies we have in Matthew's in Greek.

40:44So the reason scholars reject this today is they would say, look, our gospel, Matthew's

40:49a Greek text, it seems to copy Mark's gospel, which is a Greek text, and in fact improves

40:56the Greek grammar of Mark's gospel.

40:59So one example of this, Mark will use the phrase and immediately all the time.

41:05And immediately Jesus did this, immediately he did that, and gets a bit redundant, as

41:10a gospel writer who wrote Matthew, he deletes those references.

41:15Or Mark will quote, he will quote Aramaic phrases of Jesus, that he kind of transliterates

41:22into Greek, and Matthew will remove those phrases.

41:26So that makes it more likely that this started as a Greek text, and papiest is just wrong

41:30about that.

41:31And the only other option, like I said, you could do the other scenario where papiest

41:36is referring to something else, like, oh, if it's a lost saves collection, maybe it originated

41:42in Hebrew, right?

41:44But at least, you know, I don't know what your audience thinks about scholarship about

41:48Q. There's this idea that the gospel Matthew Luke copied Mark's narrative, but Matthew

41:55Luke share all these saves in common, and a few stories that are not found in Mark.

42:00So the idea is that, oh, they must have got a lost source that's primarily Jesus saved.

42:08But even that lost source at least looks like it's a Greek source if it existed, right?

42:12Because Matthew Luke, some of the sayings are word for word in Greek, which is unlikely

42:17they had a Hebrew document, and they're translating it in identical.

42:21So the most you could say is maybe some of the traditions were in Hebrew, right?

42:27Or say, we grabbed a bunch of different sources for that material.

42:31May I come at your last point of gospel of Hebrews?

42:36We have these Jewish gospel, so we don't have that various church leaders will say, this

42:44is what said in the gospel according to the Hebrews.

42:48So we find some Christian leaders in Alexandria, Egypt, in the third and fourth century quoting

42:54this work, and then we have a couple fourth century people who seem to cite this work

43:01like a guy named Jerome, but a guy named Jerome responsible for the Vulgic.

43:09Yeah, he learned Hebrew in the desert or something like that.

43:16So he's quoting this work, but he's attributing it to Matthew, but that's the fourth century.

43:23So what I think happened is you have this anonymous gospel query Hebrews, Jerome's connecting

43:29it with the tradition that papius wrote something in Hebrew and he's saying, oh, must be that

43:35gospel.

43:36Okay.

43:37So I think that's what happened.

43:38There's one more complication is there might have been another Greek gospel that gets misidentified

43:43with the gospel query Hebrews, which is what a journal article.

43:47Sometimes scholars call it the gospel of the Evianites, but it's quoted by another fourth

43:53century leader named Epiphanius, but it seems to be harmonizing our Greek gospel.

43:58So that's a, that wouldn't be Matthew's Hebrew workout.

44:01So I think these later Jewish gospels had nothing to do with Matthew.

44:06They get attributed to Matthew because papius has the tradition that Matthew wrote something

44:10in Hebrew and scholar early church leaders are looking for what fits that.

44:16So that would seem to support the notion that that papius is attribution of Mark's gospel

44:20to the testimony of Peter was influential, given that this apparent just kind of one

44:26off reference to Matthew being written in Hebrew sounds like it sent ripples throughout

44:31early Christianity that there was an awful lot that was influenced by that, by that testimony,

44:38even though we don't know exactly what he had in his head.

44:41Yeah, I think, Papius.

44:43So yeah, I think he was in the way, said about Mark and Matthew.

44:49So if we kind of go through the history, I don't think Papius won right away, because

44:54like I said, there's Ignatius and the dedicate and other first half of the second century,

45:00there's still referencing the gospels anonymous, right.

45:04And we even, I mean, Papius doesn't say anything about Luke from what survives.

45:10We have another church leader, someone who's rejected being Marcy.

45:15He gets accused of editing and mutilating Luke's gospel, but we have one church leader

45:22saying Marcy and attached no name to his gospel.

45:26So if he had a version of Luke, he didn't call it the gospel according to Luke.

45:31So Papius, the name traditions took time for him to influence.

45:36I think he has influenced Justin when he talks about the memoirs of apostles.

45:41One clue about this is Justin seems to refer to the memoirs of him and he's referring to,

45:46it seems to be the memoirs of Peter.

45:49And then he does cite Mark's gospel, but he doesn't quote it, but he eludes the tradition

45:54of Jesus giving James and John, the nickname sons of thunder, and that's totally found

46:00in Mark, and it's found in a line where he seems to suggest he's calling it the memoirs

46:05of Peter.

46:06So that would be pain, isn't it?

46:08So, and then when you get to Iron Day as of the end of the second century, you have him

46:14citing Matthew writes to the Hebrews in their own language.

46:18So that looks like Papius marks the interpreter Peter who wrote down after Peter's death.

46:26That's, Papius isn't saying anything about Peter's death.

46:28So that's Iron Day is building on the tradition, but still Papius at the bottom of it, right?

46:36He also adds a note about Matthew writing while Peter and Paul were in Rome and Mark writing

46:41after Peter's, he technically says departure, but probably euphemism for his death, right?

46:47But then Iron Day is adds to traditions about Luke and John.

46:51So I don't think those go back to Papius, but I think they were developed before Iron

46:56Day is, and we can look at why.

46:59No, the references, you mentioned that there were some criticisms of Marxian saying he's

47:04butchering the Gospel of Luke.

47:06These are coming after Marcian's death, right?

47:08These are coming late second century.

47:10Yeah.

47:11Okay, so what are your thoughts on the idea that Luke is second century and that maybe

47:19Marcian had a version of Luke that maybe didn't have the Nativity account and that was added

47:25on later.

47:26I'm hearing that these theories are out there in circulation.

47:30I'm just curious your thoughts on those theories.

47:32Yeah, I'm definitely, I'm not sure yet.

47:36So I have dated Luke to the early second century.

47:40Okay.

47:41So I guess part of the thing with dating the Gospels is when are the earliest references

47:46to them?

47:47So I think, so if you propose that Matthew copied Marc.

47:52So Matthew, in my view, seems to be referenced by texts like the Didocaine, Ignatius and

47:59Papies, who are probably, I know there's debate about Ignatius being later, but let's

48:05just guess early, at least for Didocaine and Papies, let's just say 100 to 110 somewhere

48:10around there.

48:11Yeah.

48:12So that puts Live It.

48:13So you say, oh, Matthew dates earlier than Marc dates earlier than that.

48:18The other clue about dating those Gospels is that, you know, they seem to imply that

48:22this generation, a bunch of things will happen up to the destruction of the temple and then

48:27the son of man will soon come back and some will taste death before they see that happen.

48:32It suggests, well, maybe they're writing, they're expecting it within that type, right?

48:38And Luke doesn't, in my mind, seem to be references early and Luke inserts things like, he has

48:46a longer time where he's like, there's going to be this time where the nations are going

48:51to trample the Jerusalem.

48:54So it seems to be like, he's allowed for a longer time frame, so he couldn't be dated

48:59a bit later.

49:02Luke also, Marc tells us that there's going to be this abomination that's going to desecrate

49:06the temple.

49:07And then Luke comes around and says, that's when the Roman army's laid siege to Jerusalem.

49:12So it seems to suggest that he knows the temple was destroyed in 70.

49:18And he's not quoted early, I think he's, him and papius share a lot of similar traditions.

49:25So I think some of those evidence points to him being in the early second century, there's

49:30talk about Luke, he quotes some things that the Jewish historian Josephus quotes, or like,

49:37so both Luke and Josephus talk about these various rebel leaders.

49:43So there's one fetus and Judas the Galilean, Josephus narrates these two rebels in the

49:49wrong order, and Luke has the same wrong order.

49:53So it's like, that might be a clue that Luke knows Josephus and Josephus wrote his history

49:57at the end of the first century, but these are the arguments.

50:01The Marcian thing I'm just not sure about yet.

50:05So basically, so Justin refers to Marcian's views, but doesn't talk about his gospel.

50:13So it's iron AS and later, that they're talking about Marcian's gospel, and they're all claiming

50:20he edited Luke, right?

50:24So they're also saying he had some version of Luke, and their view is that he tampered

50:30with it, right?

50:32So like what you noted, they note that Marcian's gospel doesn't have a birth narrative.

50:40So I think it starts with Jesus coming into the village of Capernaum.

50:44So they're like, "Oh, Marcian cut out the birth narrative, because he didn't even believe

50:49Jesus was fully human, and therefore he didn't want to be born," right?

50:54So I think that's Tertullian that tells us that.

50:57Tertullian's is early third century writer, but now scholars are kind of reopening that

51:01question, and they're saying, "Well, maybe there was a version of Luke that Marcian just

51:07inherited, and that, yeah, so maybe he still edited it some, but he wasn't wildly cutting

51:16out things."

51:17Right.

51:18Because one of the problems with him editing is, so for instance, Marcian's theology was

51:25he wanted to say that God of the Hebrew Bible was a separate, he was a lower creator, and

51:32he was not the supreme deity, who was the father of Jesus, who sent Jesus to deliver

51:38us from that, the God of the Hebrew Bible, but Marcian leaves a lot of stuff that's tied

51:45in with the Jewish scriptures in Luke's cup.

51:47So if he wanted to edit it, he didn't do a very good job editing Luke according to his

51:51own theology.

51:52Yeah, so that's why some scholars are saying, "Well, maybe Marcian just inherited a different

51:57version of Luke than what we have come to know as Luke acts."

52:03I don't know if I'm yet comfortable with dating Luke after Marcian, but it is an option.

52:10I think it's early.

52:11I think it's in the second century, I dated earlier than Marcian.

52:15The tradition, he seems to be kicked out of church around 144, are disfellowshipped from

52:22some Roman Christians around 144.

52:24So at some see, he was ministering earlier about how much earlier, and can we date Luke

52:30acts that late?

52:31I don't know.

52:32Maybe I'll come with Luke acts.

52:36Marcian has a version of Luke, but he doesn't have acts.

52:41Now if he had an earlier version of Luke, the final form of Luke, it looks like it's

52:47connected with acts because it's also a Luke right before the birth story.

52:52It opens with a prologue, where he addresses someone named Theophilus, who may be this

52:58wealthy patron who's sponsoring the publication of the work.

53:01And then the book of acts starts with, "In my last book, Theophilus," I said this and now

53:07I'm going to keep telling the story, right?

53:11So it's interesting that Marcian only has a version of Luke, but not Luke acts.

53:17Now the reason why that's important to authorship is the reason why the gospel of Luke gets

53:23attributed to Luke is because of the book of acts.

53:27Because the book of acts has these select moments where the narrator is usually telling

53:32the story about the spread of the good news from Jerusalem to the ends of the earth.

53:37And the narrator is sometimes talking about Paul and how Paul spread the message.

53:41But he's traveling with Paul and then all of a sudden he was like, "And we went there,

53:47so this first person will show up."

53:50So someone like Iron Dayus, he sees the we in acts and says, "Oh, this must be someone

53:55who's associated with Paul, so who could that be?"

53:59And then he turns to another letter that Marcian didn't have at his collection because Marcian

54:03loved Paul's letters, but he didn't have first Timothy in his collection.

54:13So in second Timothy, Paul, because the letter is attributed to Paul at least, he says only

54:19Luke is with him, right?

54:21So that's the dots that are being connected.

54:23There's a we who's with Paul.

54:26The we shows up at the end of the book of acts in Rome with Paul.

54:30And Timothy's supposed to be set by Paul in Rome in prison and Luke alone is with him.

54:36That's why Iron Dayus can say, "Oh, it was written by Luke with the hand in the Paul."

54:41What are your thoughts on?

54:42You think there's something to the idea that the four gospels, the authors of the four gospels

54:48are there because they are connected to the main disciples.

54:53Peter, James, John, and Paul, we have Luke connected with Paul.

54:58That tags that base, John is already there.

55:01Peter is connected with Marc, and then James dies too early to write a gospel.

55:05So let's just pick up Matthew.

55:07You think there's anything to that observation?

55:12I think it's probably more that helps solidify the authorship that, you know, I think you

55:19made that point in the past video that maybe that's why no one questions the authors.

55:24It's still, you know, you got your base discovered that you've gone, Matthew and John are apostles.

55:30And John, like he says, in that Jesus has a group of the inner three, Peter, James, and

55:36John are his three main apostles, John's on the list.

55:41Peter is technically on the list through Mark.

55:45Paul is another main apostle, so that Luke is associated with him.

55:49And yeah, James has died, so Matthew, at least they got one of the 12 there.

55:56But I don't know, I think it's probably that there's an early tradition from papius naming

56:01Marc and Matthew.

56:02So everyone just thought, when they accept the authorship, they go to papius with that.

56:07And then as far as Luke and John, I think they reason it out, I think.

56:14So I guess I should say, so papius tells them Marc and Matthew, but then they read the gospel

56:21Matthew, which highlights Matthew, so there's no reason to question that.

56:26And Luke and John, they do what ironings did, they connect the we of acts to the Luke alone

56:31is with me in first second Timothy.

56:34With John, what they do is you have in the gospel of John, a character known as the cycle

56:40who Jesus loves, and he shows up at the last supper, at the cross, at the empty tomb, and

56:50he's kind of contrasted with Peter.

56:53So you know, Peter has to ask him, you know, ask Jesus, who's going to betray me at the

56:58last supper?

57:00Or the beloved disciple and Peter run to the empty tomb, Peter sees the clothes, he has

57:06no idea what happening, but the beloved disciple believes.

57:12So it's like the beloved disciple is better than Peter, right?

57:17So I think what the early church does is say, who of Jesus' disciples could be close enough

57:23that superior to Peter, right?

57:26And well, we look at Matthew, Mark, and Luke, and Jesus has this inner group of the 12 apostles

57:30of Peter, James, and John, and James is killed too early, like around 40 CE, he's executed,

57:41right?

57:42Well, John 21 seems to have blinded the beloved disciple, some people thought he would live

57:45forever, right?

57:46So it doesn't look like James, so a process of elimination, well, it has to be John because

57:52Captain Peter, Captain James, who else is close enough to Jesus?

57:56So I think it's a fair assumption.

57:58You get a lot of scholarship today that will still defend identifying the beloved disciple

58:03with John, and that's what the early church does.

58:07So Irenaeus says, "John wrote his gospel, the one who leaned on the Lord's chest."

58:13That's an allusion to the beloved disciple sitting by Jesus at the last supper, leaning

58:17back to ask him a question.

58:20The problem is the blood of the disciple is still anonymous, and the gospel is willing,

58:26it barely mentions the 12th.

58:28I think it lists the 12 like four times, but it mentions other disciples.

58:32You have Nathaniel, you have Lazarus, so a beloved disciple could be an anonymous follower

58:39of Jesus who the gospel writer really idealized, saying that's someone who has the real insight.

58:46So I don't think the internal evidence demands the apostle John, but that's how the early

58:52church did it.

58:54And Irenaeus tells us that, but he wasn't the first one to do it.

58:58So he's battling against another, he might call him a Gnostic commentator, named Tolomi.

59:05And Tolomi has already said, "John, the apostle, says this in his prologue."

59:10So probably in the latter half of the second century, this is what the church has done.

59:14They looked at the other gospels and said, "Oh, must be the apostle John."

59:20And Irenaeus is repeating that information.

59:23Interesting.

59:25Well, it's clear that this could be an extended conversation.

59:30And we will extend this conversation, but not on this episode.

59:36We're going to talk to you more, Michael, if you're willing to, in the afterparty for

59:43our patrons.

59:44So anyone who is a patron at the $10 a month or higher level can come and check out what

59:51we're talking about over there.

59:54But for the rest of us, for the rest of you listening at home, that's it.

59:58Thank you so much, Michael, for joining us today.

60:01We really appreciate you coming out.

60:03Thank you very much.

60:04Appreciate it.

60:05It's been great.

60:06And just for those who want to read a little more, we've talked about some of your books,

60:11tax collector to gospel writer, the gospel and the margins, but you also have a blog

60:16that you publish on fairly regularly, more so than I have published on my blog in the

60:23last 10 years.

60:25Where can people find you online?

60:27Yeah, it's called the Jesus memoirs.

60:30And I expect me to have a play on Justin Martyr's memoirs as a possible kind of catchy name.

60:36So that's mainly where I blogged.

60:40Excellent.

60:41Well, again, thank you so much for joining us.

60:44If you friends would like to become a patron and listen to more of our conversation with

60:48Michael, please go to patreon.com/dataoverdogma.

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61:00at dataoverdogmapod.com is the place to do that.

61:04And we'll talk to you again next week.

61:06Bye, everybody.

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