Ep 58: Translation Frustration

00:00So, Tyndall translated the New Testament into English, 1525, 26.

00:07This was still considered problematic.

00:11Bordering on heretical?

00:12Well, it resulted in him being burned at the stake.

00:15Okay, so yeah.

00:16So, not just bordering on.

00:17It was only a couple years after he was executed that they were like, "You know what?

00:22I think we're going to go with this English Bible thing."

00:27He is just littered with people who were killed for their work.

00:30And then later everybody was like, "No, this is the good stuff.

00:33Let's just stick with this."

00:36Hey, everybody, I'm Dan McClellan.

00:42And I'm Dan Beecher.

00:43And you are listening to the Data Overdogma podcast where we increase public access to

00:47the academic study of the Bible and religion.

00:50And we combat that pesky misinformation about the same, or at least the spread of that misinformation.

00:57And about the same.

00:58This is what happens when I go off script and just try to add a lib, is I just screw

01:03it all up.

01:04Here's the thing.

01:05We, yeah, it's easier to, I don't know.

01:07Is it easier to combat the spread of a concept rather than the concept itself?

01:11Yeah, probably.

01:12We try to do both.

01:14I think.

01:15We're going to do both.

01:16We're in combat mode.

01:17We're in full tactical misinformation gear.

01:22We are both wearing green.

01:24That's right.

01:25Yeah.

01:26So we're blending in with whatever.

01:27Yeah, a little bit.

01:28Although it means bright green with yellow on it where it says the Incredible Hulk.

01:34Yeah.

01:35Yeah.

01:36So how are things?

01:37Things are good, man.

01:38I wanted to dive in right off the bat to discussing the cruise/tour that we are going

01:46to be doing at the beginning of October because slots are filling up, but there is still space

01:54available and we'd really like to fill all of the slots if we can.

01:58It's going to be great.

01:59It's a Mediterranean cruise with all of the luxurious, wonderful things that are contained

02:05in that that, you know, people have come to expect amazing food and, you know, amazing.

02:13Just awesome experiences.

02:15You can't go wrong with the Mediterranean.

02:17It's going to be beautiful.

02:18We're leaving from Rome.

02:20We're headed down to Naples.

02:22We're going to all the way over to Turkey and Athens and gorgeous Greek islands where

02:28you can have, you know, where you can take pictures of the blue roofs, buildings and

02:35everything.

02:36Yes.

02:37And maybe, Dan, you should talk a little bit about, and we don't have this all fully planned

02:41out yet, but what we do know is that for a lot of these places, we are going to take

02:46you on excursions that you cannot get anywhere else.

02:49So talk a little bit about that.

02:51We're working with Sacred Space Tours, which is the tour company that we're collaborating

02:57with, and they've got buses charted for us.

03:01So in those locations where there are biblically relevant sites or museums or things like that,

03:08we're going to head out and take a look, including Naples.

03:10We're going to try to get as much in as we can of Ephesus.

03:14Athens is going to be a big one.

03:16We're going to see what we can do on Crete.

03:19And now places like Santorini, places like Meek and Ose, you're going to have to find

03:23something to keep you busy and entertained.

03:27It's going to be torture.

03:28It's going to be torture.

03:29It will.

03:30It will be rough.

03:31But my understanding is there's nothing good there, but we'll make, we'll make the best

03:36of it.

03:37We're going to have a wonderful time.

03:38I think we're still working out the kinks on this that we will also probably do a couple

03:47days in Rome, either begin it before or after the tour.

03:52If you want to as an add on, as an add on, it'll be a couple of days in Rome so we can

03:56get to see more of the sites there.

04:00And I'm hoping to get into the catacombs and see some of the artwork and things down there.

04:05So yeah, that'll be that'll be something that we're going to do tack on to the end there.

04:09So trust us, this will be worth it to come with us on this thing.

04:15And you get to hang out with us.

04:16So that's awesome to Dan is very pleasant.

04:20I know I'm a miserable cuss, but everybody's going to really enjoy hanging out with with

04:26you, Dr. Dan.

04:27So if you are at all interested, we've been having people send their email send us emails,

04:33but let's be a little more direct about it.

04:35You can write in directly to sacred space tours.

04:38How do they do that?

04:40So we've got my friend Trevin Hatch, who is the liaison for sacred space tours.

04:47And so you can email him if you'd like support@sacredspacetours.com.

04:54And you can even text him or give him a call if you'd like to make sure you get in touch

04:59right away.

05:01His number with sacred space tours is 1-844-787-2536 and let him know you are interested in the

05:12data over dogma, cruise/tour in October.

05:16And he will give you all the information that you need, including if you're ready to pull

05:20the trigger on this, the form to submit a deposit.

05:25And that's, I think, what we're all aiming for, getting those in so that we can secure

05:31this space because we are, it is a little late in the game for us to be suddenly promoting

05:38a tour that's going to take place in just a few months.

05:41But we want to make sure that we secure all the space that we told them we are looking

05:45for.

05:46So I promise you, if you're even considering this, just do it.

05:51We are going to make it worth your while.

05:53We are going to make it a really good time.

05:55You'll meet other people that are awesome.

06:00And this will be one for the memory books.

06:04Yeah.

06:05Memory books?

06:06Do we have memory books?

06:07Anyway, you'll really enjoy it.

06:08For the record books.

06:09Yeah.

06:10Yes, exactly.

06:11And then there are also a couple of days, cruising days.

06:13So if you want to lay out on one of the deck chairs and just soak up the sun for 14 hours,

06:20I think they let you do that.

06:22All right, well, that's done.

06:26Everybody's going to sign up now.

06:27I know they are.

06:28That's good.

06:29And now we can move on with our show.

06:33And what are we talking about today, Dan?

06:34I thought it might be fun for us to take a look at some passages in the Bible and how

06:39their translation differs from translation to translation.

06:43Just get a sense for what kinds of patterns we can see in the way translations are approaching

06:49the Bible.

06:50Some of the I've got a few different sides pulled up that give us a bunch of different

06:54translation options.

06:56Many of the standards, your King James Version, your NIV, your ESV, your NASB, your NRSVUE

07:05and others.

07:07And so I think it would be interesting just to get a sense for how much variation there

07:12can be between different Bible translations and also why.

07:17So we'll try to--

07:18Yeah.

07:19And we've touched on the idea that the fact of the matter is that there is no such thing

07:25as just an unbiased definitive look at what-- at translating these documents.

07:39Yeah.

07:40So everybody's got their own reasons why they're choosing a certain phrasing or a certain

07:46kind of-- a certain interpretation of a thing over another.

07:52And it can be very fascinating.

07:54It can also be incredibly frustrating because I have been sort of dealing with this-- working

08:01with this book for years and years.

08:05I used to do another show that I would do reports on a whole passages from the Bible.

08:14And I would compare and contrast different translations and have no clue what--

08:21Why they're different.

08:24And what I'm supposed to actually think the story is or whatever.

08:29That's an assumption I hear from a lot of folks.

08:31They're like, "Oh, I have all these different translations, so I just compare them all."

08:35And it's like, "Well, if you don't know the relationship of the translation to the source

08:40text, that doesn't do anything for you."

08:45It's not like--

08:46I mean, it gives you a chance to pick and choose.

08:47You can--

08:48Yeah.

08:49That's generally what they do.

08:50Yeah.

08:51But it's not like you add up A, B, and C and that equals D and D is the correct answer.

08:56Right.

08:57You can't triangulate the source text based on these translations unless you already know

09:01what's going on underneath the hood.

09:05And so I want to do that a little bit.

09:06I want to talk about-- there are a few different reasons that we'll see that people translate

09:12things the way they do one is that they're in a specific tradition, not necessarily a

09:17religious tradition, but a translation tradition.

09:19Right.

09:20There are a lot of translations that are following after the KJV or something like that.

09:25And so there are--

09:26King James Version.

09:27I mean, King James Version.

09:28You're using a lot of initialisms, and that's okay, but I do want to make sure that everybody

09:33knows what they mean as we progress.

09:38And there's some history behind it.

09:40Do you think it would be helpful to just briefly talk about the history of English Bible translation?

09:45Yeah, I mean, we've touched on it before, but let's have a refresher.

09:49I think it's a good idea.

09:50So for the longest time, everybody was just using the Latin.

09:55And there were translations that were based on the Latin.

09:57The Latin Vulgets translated by Jerome around 400, 405 CE, and this was kind of the official

10:04translation of the Roman Catholic Church and a lot of the kind of affiliate groups used

10:13it as well.

10:15And there were translations out there from the Latin.

10:18We have an English translation, the Wycliffe translation that was made in the late 14th

10:23century CE based on the Latin.

10:25But we don't get translators going, trying to go back to the Greek manuscripts of the

10:31New Testament and the Hebrew manuscripts of the Hebrew Bible until we get to the Reformation.

10:37And Martin Luther is kind of the first to do this with German based on Erasmus' Texas

10:43Receptus.

10:44And then William Tyndall does it for English.

10:47So he translates the New Testament into English from the Greek.

10:52Okay.

10:53Well, you know, it's funny, for whatever reason, it had never sunk into me that the difference

10:57between the Wycliffe, Wycliffe, and the, the wind just said, the Tyndall is that Wycliffe

11:05came, it was a translation of a translation.

11:08It was, you know, it was the Greek via Latin into English or the, you know, Hebrew slash

11:17Aramaic via Latin into English.

11:19Yeah.

11:20Okay.

11:21And so if you wanted to translate the New Testament until Erasmus put together his, his

11:29Greek New Testament, you were up a creek because you didn't have a source text unless you went

11:34to the libraries and you cobbled together a bunch of manuscripts and decided for yourself,

11:39oh, I'm going to use this manuscript for this verse and this one for the other one, Erasmus

11:43made it.

11:44So you just had to go buy his book and now you had the whole Greek New Testament.

11:48And so Tyndall was like jackpot, what?

11:52And translated the, the New Testament into English 1525, 26 is when that came out.

11:59And now all of, and when Tyndall did it, this was still considered problematic.

12:06And to me, like bordering on heretical, well, it resulted in him being burned at the stake.

12:13Okay.

12:14So not just bordering on, not bordering all the way there, fully full wing into, you're

12:21going to die now.

12:22And, and a lot of it had, you know, wasn't just how dare you translate the Bible in English.

12:27It was because he was using a bunch of words that they kind of said you can't, you know,

12:32the, uh, ecclesia, they, uh, had always translated as church.

12:36And he was like, this just means congregation.

12:39And they were like, this undermines the institution and, uh, like, uh, priests.

12:44He's like, I don't, I don't like the, um, you know, the priesthood, uh, and this really

12:49just means presbyter elder.

12:51So that's what he's going to go with.

12:53And so there were, I think there are a list of five words that they were really upset

12:56with him about, but he was also publishing a lot of hit pieces, uh, the practice of

13:00prelets and other texts that were just railing on, um, church leadership and, and particularly

13:08more shoot, I forget his name is not Henry Moore, not the Cambridge, Thomas Moore, Thomas

13:13Moore.

13:14Yeah.

13:15Uh, he and Thomas Moore were going at it.

13:17They were, uh, they were not big fans of each other.

13:20And Thomas Moore is the one who ended up, uh, not signing his death warrant, but he's the

13:25one who chased him down and got him, uh, thrown in prison and, um, and he himself would be

13:32executed, uh, not to in fact, wait, was he, I think Tyndall was in prison when more got

13:39executed.

13:40Oh, yeah.

13:41Cause he was, cause Tyndall was in prison for a while.

13:43Interesting.

13:44Anyway, anyway, um, it was only a couple of years after he was executed that they were

13:49like, you know what?

13:50I think we're going to go with this English Bible thing.

13:54And, uh, how often in history is just littered with people who were murdered, were killed

14:00for their work.

14:01And then later everybody was like, no, this is a good stuff.

14:04Yeah.

14:05Let's just stick with this.

14:06So, uh, so then immediately a bunch of people just, uh, basically take Tyndall stuff and

14:13reproduce it.

14:15And so you've got, uh, translation, uh, the Matthew's Bible, you've got the, uh, cover

14:20Dale Bible, you've got the great Bible, you've got the Geneva Bible, you got the Bishop's

14:24Bible.

14:25And then the King James version is a, a very conservative revision of the Bishop's Bible.

14:30And so these, these are all one, it's one lineage.

14:33Like all these English translations are basically descended from each other.

14:37And even if they weren't like, they really didn't want the King James version to be like

14:41the Geneva Bible, they still use the Geneva Bible as a reference.

14:45They were still like, well, how, what did Geneva say?

14:47Uh, okay.

14:48And so there was influence.

14:50And so it's, it's basically one, just kind of, um, I, I, I don't use the word in bread

14:56or incest to, uh, to denigrate, but this was all very ancestral, uh, translationally speaking.

15:03Um, and well, it wasn't even a translation at that point.

15:07We weren't even translating revisions.

15:09Yeah.

15:10Yeah.

15:11And the King James version has become through historical accident embedded in the foundations

15:16of not only the English language, particularly for Americans, uh, but within the, the foundations

15:22of English Bible translation, uh, and even, uh, we have, uh, Robert Alter, who publishes

15:28his own translation of the Hebrew Bible recently published alongside of it, uh, a book called

15:34the art of Bible translation, where he talked about how you're all in the shadow of the

15:38King James version.

15:40And so you've got to grapple with that.

15:43You've got to engage with the King James version.

15:46And he also wrote another book called the pen of iron that was all about the influence

15:49of the King James version.

15:51I'm not as big a fan of the KJV as him, but that's an example of how a lot of English

15:56Bible translations these days are working in the shadow of the KJV and they enjoy the

16:01shade.

16:02They're not going to leave.

16:03Yeah.

16:04And so if you've been, I, and that shadow just got a little longer when, uh, when Donald

16:07Trump decided to release his own KJV, yeah, because that's, that's just going to extend

16:12the lease, uh, on the KJV's dominance for who knows how many more centuries somebody

16:19could make a fortune selling the Gideon's on a new translation or on a new man.

16:24If you can talk those guys into buying your version, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're,

16:29you're, you're, you're going to, you're on easy street at that point.

16:32Um, so a lot of the translations that we're going to see kind of follow after the King James

16:37version, because if you're trying to pump out a translation and you've got to publish

16:41or breathing down your neck, you're going to punt a lot.

16:45And usually punting means, what did the King James version do?

16:48Let's update the language a little bit.

16:50But other than that, we're going to follow, uh, follow what they did pretty closely.

16:54So that's one thing that can happen.

16:57Another thing, another question is what, uh, source texts are we relying on?

17:01Are we incorporating the Dead Sea Scrolls or not?

17:04Are we going to lean on the Septuagint, the ancient Greek translation or not?

17:09Uh, another thing has to do with, uh, our general theory about the nature of the Bible,

17:16like the, the NIV, the new international version is pretty explicit upfront that all the translators

17:22share this commitment to the, uh, inspiration and infallibility of the Bible, which means

17:29if they find problems, they're going to scratch them out or they're highly motivated to massage

17:37those problems.

17:38Yes, there's, there's a lot of, uh, a massage, uh, going on here, uh, when I was in massage

17:44therapy school, I would, uh, when we did our, um, uh, clinical internship, I would always

17:49say I'll do shiatsu and that was always fancy.

17:54It was something that people love doing, but I did, I liked it because I didn't have to

17:57set up a table and I got to be in my socks.

18:00So there are a lot of Bible translations.

18:02Let's just say that want to be in their socks that don't want to have to put their shoes

18:08on.

18:09Um, oh, that is a delightful way of putting it.

18:12I'm very happy.

18:13Although something tells me that a lot of these massages are not even shiatsu worthy.

18:18They are, no, they are, they are the CD massage parlor in the bad part of town that keeps

18:24getting rated by the cops.

18:25Yeah.

18:26There's, there's no, there's no Reiki.

18:27There's no energy work going on here.

18:29I don't know, um, none of that, uh, Ayurveda therapeutic stuff.

18:34It is, um, but there might be a happy ending waiting for you.

18:38Oh, by the way, just apropos of absolutely nothing.

18:44Call your massage therapist and massage therapist and not a masseuse.

18:48Oh, okay.

18:49Yeah.

18:50That's noted, especially, especially not a male massage therapist.

18:55Yeah.

18:56Well, yeah.

18:57The term is a masseur, but also don't call them that.

18:59Just call them a massage therapist.

19:01Okay.

19:02Okay.

19:03Fine.

19:04So there, there are a bunch of reasons that translations are going to differ, but I want

19:09to start with an easy one, um, that, uh, we talked about in our very first episode of

19:16the podcast, uh, so many eons ago, uh, Genesis one, one, which is the very beginning, uh,

19:25and we have from the King James Bible in the beginning, God created the heaven and the

19:29earth economical, very simple, very straightforward, easy to understand, not not, you know, yeah,

19:39not, it's, it's, it's not hard on the brain or anything.

19:42Yeah.

19:43Too bad.

19:44It's wrong.

19:45And I had, yeah, as we've talked about, I'm looking at, uh, Bible hub.com where you

19:50can pull up dozens of translations and the first 10 are all very clearly almost identical.

19:59They're all, um, basically descended from the King James version, including the new King

20:04James version and, uh, and so on.

20:07And they all say the same thing except for some of them may have heavens and plural because

20:12uh, chemim and Hebrew is, uh, is plural.

20:15So new international version, new living translation, English standard version, Berean standard

20:21Bible.

20:22I don't think I know what that is.

20:24Uh, and then you got the new American standard Bible, which is kind of a Catholic oriented

20:28translation.

20:29I call it as be, um, and then you've got the NASB 95, the NASB 77, and then this legacy

20:35standard Bible amplified Bible I don't think I've looked into before, but it says in the

20:41beginning God parenthetically, it says Elohim created brackets by forming from nothing,

20:47the heavens and the earth.

20:49So that's really, that's really, uh, uh, holding your hand through this.

20:53Yeah.

20:54By the way, this is, uh, this is from nothing.

20:57Yeah.

20:58Um, but we got, is that from nothing part of, is that translational or is that just sort

21:04of a little, like that's an editor's note?

21:08Yeah.

21:09That's an editor's note.

21:10And we would like you to interpret this this way.

21:12Okay.

21:13Um, and what I don't see on here is the correct translation, which would be when God began

21:18to, oh, we got additional translations.

21:20Let's see if that NRSV UE, I think has when God began, right?

21:25They have a when God began, uh, the, uh, the Jewish publication society society Tanakh.

21:31So the JPS Tanakh has, uh, when God began, uh, Robert Alters translation as when God began.

21:38There's another one called the, the first testament, a translation by, uh, I believe,

21:44uh, Greenstein.

21:45Is that accurate?

21:47Greenstein or Goodspeed, uh, also says something very similar.

21:51I, can I, can I take you to my favorite, uh, translation of the Bible because it's not

21:57one and it's crazy.

21:59What's that?

22:00A message is my favorite, which by the way, the message for gen one one has first this

22:08colon.

22:09God created the heavens and the earth.

22:12No, the heavens and earth, all you see, all you don't see earth was a soup of nothingness,

22:20a bottomless emptiness, and inky blackness.

22:24There you go.

22:26The message is great.

22:27You guys, I, I wouldn't use it if you like want, you know, accuracy in any way, but for

22:34just sheer, like goofy fun entertainment, the message is really amazing.

22:40Yeah.

22:41And a lot of people will talk about this, um, the spectrum of Bible translation where

22:45it's like thought for thought all the way to word for word, or if you went extreme word

22:51for word, you're just reproducing the source text, but you've got like interliniers are

22:56over there.

22:57And then on the other end, you've got the thought for thought, which are paraphrases or

23:00which are like trying to process the source text and then spit it out in a way that would

23:05be more accessible.

23:06And I think the message is, is definitely in that, in that vein, um, but yeah.

23:14And the reality is that translation is a lot more complex than, than just a single spectrum

23:19like that.

23:20Right.

23:21Because languages are, uh, they're not just words, they are like, meaning doesn't just

23:28come from words, it comes from how you structure your sentences and how you, and how, you know,

23:36how you, what the syntax is and yeah.

23:39So this one here comes down to how we're interpreting the word, the first word in Hebrew, which

23:45scholars these days are in pretty widespread agreement.

23:48This is in the construct.

23:50Uh, and if it is in the construct, then it means in the beginning of something rather

23:56than just an absolute in the beginning, this is what happened.

24:01And so the, the fact that so many translations, uh, stick with in the beginning is, is a testament

24:06to the influence of the, the traditional reading and the King James version didn't originate

24:11that reading, uh, but it goes back much further than that.

24:16But it is definitely not creation X and E. Hello, uh, creation out of nothing.

24:22That's for dang sure.

24:23All right.

24:25The other one I want to look at is Genesis two eight and there's really one main translation

24:33that I'm going to be poking fun at here, uh, Genesis two eight.

24:37Here's the King James Bible and the Lord God planted a garden eastward and Eden.

24:42And there he put the man whom he had formed.

24:45Okay.

24:47Now this is a part of a distinct creation account from Genesis one.

24:53The NIV says, and the, the order of creation is different.

24:58Right.

25:00Here it's in a different order from Genesis one.

25:03The NIV says, now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east in Eden and there he

25:10put the man he had formed.

25:14And so we were using a plu perfect verb tense instead of just saying this is what he did.

25:20It's, um, saying now this is what he had done before we get to what we're talking about

25:27now.

25:28He's not doing it right now or he didn't just do it.

25:31He did a while ago and right now we're catching up to that point or now that's becoming relevant.

25:37And the purpose is to say, no, this is not in a different order, right?

25:44Because we can, we can translate this in the plu perfect and say, now look, remember back

25:48in chapter one, when he had done this, so I'm just kind of casting your memory back there.

25:55So you remember recall that this happened.

25:58And so it's trying to suggest that Genesis two is, is not actually giving the creation

26:02account in a specific order, but just kind of, um, casting back.

26:08And so this your contention would be that that is a mistranslation.

26:12That is a mistranslation guided by the presupposition of univocality.

26:16And so in order to obscure the fact that there is continuity, uh, discontinuity between these

26:25two accounts of the creation, they use the plu perfect to disrupt the, um, consecutive

26:31order of creative acts that is taking place here.

26:35And I think there was another one, uh, the duae cams, uh, which is a very early Catholic

26:42translation, which was based, uh, initially on the vulgar, and then later on, um, was

26:48kind of revised in light of the King James version, uh, the Dewey, uh, Dewey James says

26:54the, and the Lord God had planted a paradise of pleasure from the beginning wherein he placed

27:01man whom he had formed.

27:04So that's another one that is, that is playing the same, uh, getting stuck on the same sticky

27:10wicket, right, of, uh, presupposing univocality.

27:14I'm pleased to report that Wycliffe did not fall for that trap and said, for sooth, the

27:20Lord God planted at the beginning, the paradise of liking.

27:25Mm.

27:26The paradise of liking, by the way, uh, that's a great title for a book or something.

27:32If you want, if you want to write a book, the paradise of liking, I think would be a title.

27:36Oh man, Wycliffe was, uh, what was he on that, uh, that is an interesting one, uh, now there's

27:45one that I always look at just cause I hope that one day I will see a different translation

27:51is Genesis 20 verse 13.

27:53Oh really?

27:54And this is not one that people are, uh, that, you know, blows anybody's hair back.

27:58But here's the King James version and it came to pass when God caused me to wander from

28:02my father's house that I said under her, this is thy kindness was which thou shalt show

28:07unto me at every place wither we shall come say of me, he is my brother.

28:12So this is, is Abraham being like, Hey, we need to lie to some folks, um, to save my

28:18hide.

28:19Uh, and, and this is something that was that, uh, I think Jacob also does after Abraham.

28:27But the, the interesting part is that, uh, the verb when God caused me to wander, the

28:34verb is in the plural in Hebrew, uh, it is unambiguously a plural verb.

28:41And the word for God, Elohim is grammatically plural.

28:45And so in order to determine whether this is intended to refer to a singular deity or

28:49plural deities, you're supposed to look at the verbs and the pronouns.

28:54And so you could make a case that it would be more argued, it would be more accurate

28:59to translate this.

29:02And it came to pass when the gods caused me to wander.

29:05Oh, wow.

29:07Which some scholars think probably makes a little better sense if this tradition is coming

29:11from very early in the history of Israel, right.

29:14And others think, and now it's, it's just, uh, some kind of, uh, harmonization.

29:21When you have participles, uh, the participles, which is a verbal noun, the participles can

29:26match the ending of the plural noun, Elohim.

29:30And so for some, for kind of, uh, like, uh, phonemic reasons, there, there can be, uh,

29:39phonemic harmonization.

29:41We want the verb, we want the participle to rhyme with the noun.

29:45And so I can, I'm a, it's a little easier for me to accept that argument if there's

29:50a participle, but here's not a participle.

29:51It's just a straight up verb and it's plural.

29:54And so I'm sure we all followed all of that.

29:57Everything that you just said, but with the participles and the phonemes and whatever.

30:01Yeah.

30:02So, um, if you have the, the participle ending in EME and you have Elohim verb EME, then

30:08it rhymes.

30:10And so, um, because the way that these texts sounded was so important, uh, to the Hebrew

30:18language.

30:20I think the kit, there's a better case to make that you can have people saying, I'm just

30:25going to use a plural participle here, even though I'm talking about the single God because

30:30it sounds better.

30:31Yeah.

30:32That kind of stuff is really fun.

30:33Um, it definitely, I think would blow a lot of people's minds.

30:39If Genesis third, Genesis, what was it, 20 verse 13 was like, and when the gods had me

30:46caused me to wander that, I think, uh, I think some people would would, I mean, you know,

30:52we've talked about the, the fact that this is not a, a, a monotheistic book, but I don't,

31:02but you know, I think that may be one of the things that we're talking about is that people

31:07are making choices to make sure to, to minimize the polytheism of the book and, uh, and bring

31:13in as much monotheism or, or, or, or make the monotheism highlighted and, and sort of stretch

31:21across the entirety of the thing and, and mask anything that complicates it.

31:26And that's exactly what's, what's going on here is, uh, they're masking that.

31:31Okay.

31:32I found another example that might be a little clearer when you remember when we talked about

31:35the necromancer of indoor, I love the neck, the witch, I'm going to call her the witch.

31:40I like the way, um, and the, in verse 13, where, where she says, uh, that she, or it says,

31:48she's, uh, I saw a divine being coming up out of the ground according to the NRSV, but

31:52it's just Elohim God, a God gods.

31:55It says Elohim Yiti Olim.

31:58So Elohim I see rising up, but so that rising up participle is plural, but Elohim Olim rhyme.

32:07So that could be an, and then Saul responds, what does he look like?

32:12So okay.

32:13Did you not hear me use the plural?

32:15All right.

32:16But so that's an example where maybe that's, uh, plural just for phonemic reason.

32:21Okay.

32:22Interesting.

32:23Yeah.

32:24So, um, the next one I want to look at, which I think is going to be a little more fun is

32:28one that we've, we've talked about somewhat recently, Deuteronomy 32 eight.

32:32Oh, okay.

32:33Which is, which is a, the fun one.

32:35Uh, so this is where we have the song of Moses and, uh, Moses is supposed to say, uh, ask

32:43your fathers and they will tell you the elders and they will say to you, then King James

32:48version says, when the most high divided to the nations, their inheritance, when he separated

32:51the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children

32:55of Israel.

32:56Now, this is an example where it's a question of the source text.

33:01The Masoretic text here has children of Israel, like that's, that's not really up for debate.

33:06The ancient Greek translation, the Septuagint, has angels of God and scholars of long known,

33:12they like to translate the phrase, uh, sons of God as angels of God.

33:17So people, um, stroke their beards and collect their tongues and thought, uh, maybe this

33:23originally said, according to the number of the banalohim children of God.

33:28And then lo and behold, we found among the Dead Sea Scrolls for Q Deuteronomy Jay, which

33:34says precisely that, the sons of God.

33:37And so any translation that has been executed since the sixties has been aware that we have

33:44this reading out there, that, that there is, uh, a better reading.

33:49And some of them, uh, will translate it better.

33:52Like the, the NRSV, you, which is, uh, the one that we, uh, default to, uh, the official

33:59position of the data over dogma podcast, correct, says, uh, he fixed the boundary boundaries

34:04of the people's according to the number of the gods, which is just understanding children

34:10of God, banalohim to be used as a way to refer to a member of a given category.

34:16So like sons of the prophets means profit or son of man means a person.

34:22A human.

34:23Right.

34:24Um, you've got the, the, the daughters of Adam from Genesis six, which just means women.

34:30Um, and so that's how they're taking it.

34:33Uh, we have in the, the new English translation, we have a very interesting take.

34:40He said the boundaries of the people's according to the number of the heavenly assembly.

34:44Oh, so it's not just translating what it says, but it's saying, well, the banalohim the children

34:49of God were members of the divine council, the heavenly assembly.

34:53And so let's just render heavenly assembly.

34:56Um, and so interesting.

34:59Yeah.

35:00Talk a little bit about, cause one thing that you said that I kind of, I think maybe some,

35:06some of our listeners might get hung up on is why.

35:10So we find, you know, we find one Dead Sea scroll that confirms this banalohim idea.

35:19Why is that the now dominant or now preferred rendering reading reading rather than, cause,

35:27you know, that's one source, but we know that there's lots and lots of sources texts and

35:32they don't always, you know, you know, as, as these scrolls were written, you know, copied

35:39and disseminated and whatever differences emerged.

35:42Why is, why is that going to be preferred over, uh, other traditions?

35:48So that, that's a good point because earlier does not necessarily mean more original, uh,

35:54because it's very complex how, how these texts can change as they're transmitted.

35:58The first part is the fact that there were no children of Israel at this time.

36:03So this, this dividing up of the, of the nations kind of a problem, sure, all right.

36:10So we're probably supposed to understand this as a call back to the part in Genesis where

36:18it talks about Pelleg and it says the earth was divided in his day or something like that.

36:26So this is probably something that's, that's calling back to Genesis 10 now and the, and

36:32the table of nations.

36:33Now you do have a statement that there were 70 folks who came out with, came out of Egypt

36:42to return, uh, with the sons of Israel, uh, after following the, uh, the Exodus.

36:50And so that's one of the, one of the arguments for children of Israel, 70, but we all, we

36:57have the 70, uh, nations in Genesis 10. And once we look at, consider the readings, sons

37:03of God.

37:04Well, one, that doesn't have the, the chronological problem that, uh, sons of Israel has, uh,

37:10it is much earlier.

37:11We don't know when exactly, uh, children of Israel got worked into the, the manuscript,

37:16but, uh, all of the earliest manuscripts we have, uh, all the manuscripts that we have

37:21prior to the Masoretic text read something different. Uh, the Septuagint had, uh, sons

37:28of God, the Dead Sea Scrolls have sons of God, and this makes better sense because, uh, this

37:36would account for the tradition that we see developing later on of every nation having

37:41a guardian angel, um, over it. And so if we're dividing up the nations according to the sons

37:49of God, uh, then, then that makes a little better sense of that. Deuteronomy four, nineteen

37:53also seems to be reflecting the same idea. And that's where it says, when you look up

37:58into the sky and you see the sun, the moon, the stars and all the host of heaven, we don't

38:02want you to be driven to worship them, uh, because God distributed them to the nations.

38:11And so it's, uh, the, this is an astralization of the gods, but it's treating the gods as

38:18each one being distributed to its own nation. So it accounts for the idea of patron deities

38:24over each of the nations of the earth. So it's, uh, we have manuscript support. Uh, chronologically,

38:31it makes better sense. It also has much more explanatory power. And it also fits into,

38:37uh, other passages that seem to refer to this tradition about, about each nation having

38:42a deity distributed to it. Right. And we also have another, uh, verse in Deuteronomy 32 Deuteronomy

38:5040, 32, 43, uh, which in a similar way had a reference to gods that was, uh, smudged out,

39:01but we were clued in by the Septuagint. And then we found a Dead Sea Scroll manuscript

39:05that demonstrated the Septuagint was, was right, but we don't need to get into that one. But,

39:11this is another one where, uh, it's, it's theological, the motivation to avoid the reading that scholars

39:20overwhelmingly agree is more original. Uh, it's a theological concern. Uh, they don't

39:26want to say that. And so there are a number of translations. Let me see if I, uh, can,

39:32if I can remember which translations there, there are a handful that will avoid it. Surprisingly

39:39the English standard version, which, uh, we, have we talked about the ESV on the podcast?

39:45Not really. No, I don't think so. Okay. So this was, this was a translation that was

39:48basically done because of a bunch of evangelicals got together in Colorado Springs and said,

39:53I don't like how the NIV is favoring women. And we did talk about this right. Yeah. That's

40:00great. And so they, they came up with the English standard version in a lot of ways.

40:04It's a very, very accurate translation. And so here they say, uh, he fixed the borders

40:08of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God dead on. Um, it is a perfectly

40:14literal translation. There is no shame there. They're not trying to hide anything, but

40:20we can, the shame comes later, I guess. Um, I'm okay. How about this? How about the,

40:27the message? Oh, he put each of the peoples within boundaries under the care of divine

40:33guardians. Oh, wow. So they're incorporating it, but they're incorporating the broader

40:40tradition of this idea of, um, guardian angels over each nation, which is something that

40:46you see, uh, in later Greco Roman Judaism, uh, for instance, the book of Daniel, uh, where

40:52Michael, the archangel comes to Daniel and he's like, sorry, I just came from battling

40:58the Prince of Persia. And, um, and then now I've got to go battle the Prince of Greece.

41:03Um, and, and this is supposed to reflect, uh, the guardian angel over each of these nations

41:09and Michael is the head because Israel is, is the head. Um, so it stops being about,

41:16uh, God, sort of patron gods and becomes a lesser divine deed, divine agents of some sort.

41:25So between the exile and the Greco Roman period, you basically in order to try to further

41:30exalt the God of Israel, all the, all the second tier deities and the craftsmen deities

41:36and the servile deities, everybody gets squished down into the bottom tier, which is basically

41:43the servile tier. Right. And so everybody who used to be gods. Now they're just angels.

41:49And like technically angels are considered gods, but it's like, eh, you know, you're

41:55God with a little G. Yeah. The JV. It's a, it's a, it's a cute God, the JV squad. Um,

42:05but you have translations like the new American standard Bible, the NASB, which says according

42:09to the number of the sons of Israel. And then that they'll just include a footnote that

42:13says, the Dead Sea Scrolls say sons of God. The Septuagint says angels of God. We don't

42:19care though. Um, new English translation, uh, has, oh, we already went over that one,

42:26but they've got copious notes there. Oh, which reminds me. Um, let's look at another one

42:32from the, from the N E T specifically because it annoys me a translation. Okay. And, uh,

42:41this is Exodus 22, uh, verse eight and Exodus 21 verse six is very similar, but I think

42:49the, the problem is more clearly outlined in Exodus 22, verse eight. So, uh, but first

42:56let me share the, uh, the King James version. And then do you have the, uh, do you have

43:01the N R S V in front of you? I can. Okay. Pull it up and follow along. Um, if you're

43:07in Exodus 22, is that what you said? 22. Yeah. We're going to be in verse eight. Okay.

43:12Okay. Okay. Here's the King James version. If the thief be not found, then the master

43:18of the house shall be brought unto the judges to see whether he have put his hand unto his

43:26neighbor's goods. Okay. That is not what it says in R S V U E. What does it say in the

43:32N R S V U E. If the thief is not caught, the owner of the house shall be brought before

43:38God to determine whether or not the owner has had laid hands on the neighbor's goods.

43:43Mm, provocative. Yeah. And, um, and also not easy to do. It seems like it's either already

43:50before God or huh? So the, uh, it's Elohim is the, is the word in Hebrew. Now here's the

43:59thing that complicates the way the N R S V translates it. Because if you go down to

44:03verse nine, it says, um, the one whom God condemns shall pay double to the other according

44:11to, uh, the N S, uh, the N R S V. However, if you look in the Hebrew, that verb for condemn

44:19and verse nine, it's not singular. It's plural. And so it doesn't say God. It actually says

44:28God's. Okay. So when the condemned, when the, the, the, the verb is plural, then that is

44:36then retroactively applied to the, to the, the subject to the subject. If, if the subject

44:42is the word Elohim because that can be singular or plural. Okay. Right. Right. Right. Right.

44:47Right. Right. Right. Right. So really Exodus 22 eight should say then the owner of the

44:50house will be brought before the gods. Okay. To see whether he has laid his hand on his

44:55neighbor's goods. And, uh, the case of the party shall come before the gods and the one

45:01whom the gods condemn shall pay double to the other. The new, I was going to say this

45:06naughty little N S N R S V doesn't even have a note for that. Yeah, they're, they're tricky.

45:11They're tricky. They're not, they're not even, they're not even acknowledging that there's

45:15a possible issue here. Now the new English translation is following after the King James

45:20version rendering judges and just just to be blunt, the word Elohim never means judges

45:27in the Hebrew Bible. It means God, gods or divine period. Okay. So they have a note here

45:35that says the line says, no, 22 eight here again, the word used is the gods, meaning the

45:42judges who made the assessments and decisions. Why would it mean that? Why would they use

45:49that word to mean that? That doesn't make any sense. Well, the note that I was looking

45:54for is actually, okay, it's in Exodus 21 six where we have the same thing. His master must

45:58bring him to the Elohim. And they say here, the word is high lo heen. Uh, one scholar

46:04driver says the word means to God, namely the nearest sanctuary in order that the oath

46:08in the ritual may be made solemn, although he does say that it would be done by human

46:12judges, which is nonsense. Um, others have made a stronger case that it refers to judges

46:19who acted on behalf of God. Here's the problem. The N.E.T. then cites Cyrus Gordon and Anne

46:27draft corn. Cyrus's papers called Elohim and its reputed meaning of rulers, judges and

46:32draft corn's article is called Elani Elohim. It cites these two in support of the notion

46:38that it refers to judges who act on behalf of God. Sure. Each of those articles argues

46:45it does not mean judges. It no. Each of those articles argues strenuously. This means gods.

46:56Wow. Whoever is responsible for this new English, uh, translation note, either just was like,

47:03well, I'm just going to lie and just count on nobody looking these things up or saw the

47:10article titles and was like, surely they agree with, with what we want the, the situation

47:17to be. And so just blithely put them down in support without having ever read them. Listen,

47:23I am sympathetic to anyone who reads just a headline and feels like they understand the

47:30entirety of the argument. But like I have been, I have, I have been known to do that

47:36on occasion. I love this, this commercial, this lady's like, so I read an article. Well,

47:42most of an article. Okay. That the headline of an article. Yeah. That's, I think that's

47:49more honest than a lot of us can be. But Cyrus Gordon's article is titled Elohim in its reputed

47:55meaning of rulers and judges. Like you know, he's going to argue that it doesn't mean,

48:01but, um, so, so that is a theologically driven translation. You don't want it to say gods.

48:08They're going to have it say judges. And, uh, we need to throw some citations on there.

48:13We need to pad that footnotes. So it looks like we have a case, even though they cited

48:18100% of the articles that they cited to defend their reading flatly refute their reading.

48:25Wow. That's that is bold. I'll say that. It is, uh, if I were one of those, uh, people

48:33who wrote one of those papers, I would be, uh, probably a little upset about that. Hey,

48:38I think, uh, Cyrus Gordon is, is no longer with us and has not been for some time. I don't

48:44know about and draft corn, but, um, but yeah, that would be annoying. I, I see my, like even

48:50like comments on my videos, they're like, Dan said this. I was like, I have never once

48:54said that in my entire life. Right. Yeah. Which, which is annoying. Uh, feel free, feel

48:59free to like, you know, quote us and quit. I mean, don't quote me. I'm not, I'm pretty

49:06worthless to you, but feel free to quote Dan. But like, at least say what he said. Like

49:11if you're going to refute him, get it. Make sure you say what he actually said. Yeah.

49:17I feel like we, uh, haven't spent much time in the New Testaments. Let's get in there,

49:25man. Yeah. We're running out of real estate. So, uh, an interesting one, kind of a simple

49:29one is, uh, Mark one verse one. So this is the first, the first, uh, sentence of any gospel

49:36that we have marks the earliest gospel. This is the first chapter, the very first verse.

49:40You're saying chronologically, chronologically. Yeah. Not, not as they appear in most Bibles,

49:45but chronologically chronologically. Yeah. Matthew comes first because that is more helpful

49:50to segueing from, uh, the, the prophet Malachi into, uh, here's our, our coming, um, Elijah

49:59who is going to fulfill all this and all that kind of stuff. But in Mark one, here's the

50:04King James version, the beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the son of God. So pretty

50:10straightforward, um, pretty basic. And then we immediately get into as it is written in

50:16the prophets, be all this in a messenger, blah, blah, blah. Um, some translations don't go

50:22ahead. That is not what I've got. What you're looking at the NRSV, you. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

50:27Hit me. I've got, uh, the beginning of the good news, good news gospel. That's fine.

50:33Of Jesus Christ. Period. Yep. It does not, it, you, you said something. You kept talking

50:40after the words Jesus Christ. Um, the son of God is something that's been, uh, most likely

50:47added. That is not in our earliest manuscripts. And so, uh, however, there's a, you can kind

50:54of, you could make the case that it's there. Like this is an, this is an instance where

51:01you have good manuscript support for it. It's not the earliest. It's not the strongest,

51:07but you can make a case for it. And so some folks leave it in, uh, the, where's the, uh,

51:14the new English translation I think has, I think they leave it in. Yeah. But there's

51:20a footnote that says, um, some of these, uh, lack, uh, the son of God and both Uranus

51:29and Epiphanias. So early Christian authors, additionally, lack Jesus Christ. Oh yeah. Well,

51:37virtually all the rest of the witnesses have the words. Yeah. So the footnote in the NRSV

51:45says other ancient, so the NRSV doesn't have the, the son of God part, uh, and their footnote

51:51just says other ancient authorities add son of God. Yeah. Interesting. And this is part

51:57of the complexity of, of translating when you sit down to translate, you've got to pick

52:02a source text. And normally you just go for the nearest critical edition. Uh, but translators

52:11are not bound to the text critical choices that they make in those critical editions.

52:17And so some translators will be like, well, I want to include this and here's, and I think

52:21that we should put this in here because I think it fits. Uh, and so they will put stuff

52:26back in. And so the new English translation is like, we like the son of God, we're going

52:30to put it in. We're just going to add a note and adding a note is kind of a way to cover

52:34your tracks. It's, it's like, I know the argument. I still want to do it anyway. Right. Um, even

52:41though, yeah, I think most scholars would say Senate God is probably not there. And one

52:45of the reasons is that when scribes transmit these texts, they tend to add to the text

52:50more frequently than they take away from the text. There's not really a good argument

52:54to make for how this could have fallen out, but we can come up with good reasons why it

52:59would have been added in. Right. So, um, unless somebody just spilled their coffee and it covered

53:05over the son of God part, which, uh, it does happen. Like you do have, uh, you, you sometimes

53:13have a coffee rings like on old manuscripts and stuff like that. There's even, uh, one

53:18of my favorites. There's an old Roman tile that somebody, uh, somebody was obviously doing

53:24like in making the tile in their garage. There are cat footprints in the tile. Oh, somebody's

53:33that somebody's cat was just like, dude, did you and ran across the tile as it was drying.

53:37Uh, it's, it's the coolest thing in the world. That's awesome. Yeah. Okay. Here's, I mean,

53:43you might as well just keep just use the tile. Oh, yeah. Yeah. They did. I mean, it was, uh,

53:47it was turned over. It was it was upside down. Like that was the bottom of the tile. Um,

53:51so it was, it was still stuck on a roof somewhere. Um, okay. Uh, look up Matthew 17 21. Okay. Well,

54:03the long pause is instrumental here because you're not going to find it. Hey, wait a minute.

54:10Are you tricking me? I am tricking you. I'm not. You're right. You are tricking me because,

54:16uh, yeah, Matthew 17 21. You need in there. You've got a, a digital version, right? Yes.

54:24Of the NRC. Okay. And if you look in a hard copy, it just goes 18, 19, 20, 22, 23, 24.

54:31Yeah. Uh, verse 21 is not in there. Although there should be a footnote probably at the

54:35end of, uh, of verse 20 or the barriers. Yeah. And what does a footnote say? Other ancient

54:42authorities add 17 21. Uh, and then it lists what that says. Yeah, which says, how be it

54:48this, so King James version, how be it this kind goeth not out, but by prayer and fasting.

54:54Yeah. And so this is, um, in the canonical order of the New Testament, this is the first

54:59example of this happening. Although as we've talked about before, this happens about 16

55:04times in a bunch of Bibles, this is one of the passages that is just removed from modern

55:09translations because we know that it was not a part of, uh, the, uh, original version of

55:16this text. Right. Because we found, we have a manuscript where it's not there at all.

55:21No sign whatsoever of it. And then we have a, another manuscript where it's not in the

55:25text, but somebody scribbled it in the margins and put a little arrow saying right here.

55:29And then we have, and we have a later manuscript where it's just right in the, in the body

55:34of the text. And so somebody has just slipped it in there. And, um, as you look around

55:41at, uh, at different translations, you'll see that, uh, some of them include it. Some

55:47of them don't. And this was, this text was first omitted in an 1881 edition of the New

55:54Testament. Oh, well, that's, that's pretty, uh, that's pretty early in the game. It feels

55:58like, yeah. So once the King James version, um, kind of took its place as the preeminent

56:05English translation of the Bible, nobody messed with it. There were new additions. There were

56:08new reprints and all that kind of stuff. But like once we got past Benjamin Blaney's 1769

56:15authorized version, like nobody wanted to mess with the King James version, but we did

56:19have a bunch of scholars who were like, we've been finding all these New Testament manuscripts

56:24that go back a thousand years earlier than what Erasmus was, uh, had available to him

56:31when he created his Texas receptus, we can put together a better New Testament. And so

56:37there were a bunch of people who set forth in the 18th and particularly the 19th century

56:42to do that, to build a better New Testament. And, uh, Westcott and Hort are the two scholars

56:47who came up with the first, what we now call critical text, which is kind of the, the new

56:53and improved version of the Texas receptus based on hundreds of new manuscripts. And

56:58the first and in 1881, they took the King James version and they revised it according

57:04to this new text. And this was, this was kind of ballsy because it really upset a lot

57:10of people and a lot of people told them they had no business doing this, but, uh, the revised

57:15version, the RV was published, the New Testament in 1881. And then the, the, the full Old Testament

57:21and a New Testament together in 1885. And, uh, and they left this out in a bunch of other

57:26uh, passages as well. And so since then you still have some translations of the Bible

57:32that will put those texts back in there, uh, because, not because there's a good case

57:37to make that they're original. They're not, but because of tradition, because none, no

57:45one shall add a word to it or take away from it. And they believe that that violates that

57:50even though they're defending the corrupted version has had stuff added to it. Yeah. Well,

57:56yeah, exactly. Someone else added to it, which is a violation of that precept, but now it's

58:03in there. So I got to not, I got to honor it or whatever. Yeah. And, and a lot of on social

58:09media, I see videos all the time from people who are like, I just discovered that they took

58:13out a verse from the Bible and, and they go through and they're like, look, look in your

58:17Bible, everybody, make sure that you have verse 21 in Matthew 17. And you know, they're

58:22just breathless and shocked. And it's like it's been a hundred and forty three years

58:29since this was done. Also, it's not a particularly earth shattering verse. The verse that has

58:39been removed that is so scandalous doesn't change the theology at all, doesn't change

58:45anybody's practice of their religion. There's just like, it mentions fasting and prayer.

58:51Yeah. Gosh, I hope they mentioned that and other places in the Bible. And, and they do

58:56because this was taken from another book. This was taken from Mark nine. And, and it's altered

59:02a little bit, but what people are like, they're trying to remove fasting. They're trying to

59:06make it so we can't fast anymore. And say, no, it still says this in Mark nine where Jesus

59:11says this kind doesn't come out, except by much fasting. But I want to do, we're getting

59:18close here, but I want to do one more that I think is interesting if that's cool with

59:21you. Yeah, I love it. John one verse 18. We'll skip over the John one one controversy. We

59:29already discussed that a little. You know what we're going to do? We're going, well,

59:32oh, we've already discussed that. Yeah. John one one, we've already discussed. Oh, okay.

59:36That's the word and the word with God and the word was God. Yeah, we've done that one.

59:41We've done that. So John one 18, uh, I'll go ahead and read what the King James version

59:46says. Follow along. I honestly don't remember if it's different in the in the NRSV. No man

59:52hath seen God at any time. The only begotten son, which is in the bosom of the father,

59:59he hath declared him. Is that more or less what you have in the NRSV? Yeah, it feels a

60:06little. The wording feels a little bit different. Should I just read it? Yeah, go ahead. No one

60:13has ever seen God. It is the only son, himself, God, who is close to the father's heart, who

60:20has made him known. So huge different. Yeah, because it says the son is himself God. Yeah,

60:30which is, um, which is actually there are two different readings here. And it sounds

60:34like the NRSV is just keeping both of them. Okay. Yeah, because you either have, uh, you

60:41either have the, uh, monogony swios, which would be the only or the unique son, or there

60:49are some, the, the earliest manuscript we have actually says monogony's theos, the only or

60:56the unique God, which is a unique phrase that doesn't occur anywhere else in the Bible.

61:02It's twios. The, the only or the unique son occurs like a dozen times in John. Huh? This

61:09other phrase doesn't ever occur. Uh, but if you want Jesus to be God, then it's very

61:16important that you have, uh, that you stick with the, the other reading. So here's the

61:22new English translation. No one has ever seen God, the only one himself, God, who is in closest

61:28fellowship with the father has made God known. So we're getting real interpretive. Uh, things

61:36are getting weird here. Yeah. Yeah. The, uh, so we have the earliest reading, which, which

61:43says, uh, the only God most manuscripts have only son. There is an argument that, well,

61:51this is the earliest one. We have the best support for this. Uh, there's also the, uh,

61:57the principle of Lectio difficile or the more difficult reading is likely the earlier reading,

62:03uh, because, uh, changes tend to smooth difficulties out rather than add them in. Right. And so

62:10because it is weird, it's more difficult, but at the same time, it's also theologically

62:15and incredibly helpful verse. So I would argue that Lectio difficile or gets a little muddy

62:20when we consider, uh, a verse that has to do with the Trinity. Right. There you go. Wow.

62:28That is, yeah, that, that one feels like it changes a lot depending on which, which one

62:36you, you go with. Yeah. And I can, I can see when, you know, when someone is making choices

62:42in terms of how they're going, what they're going to put into their version, their translation,

62:47their, whatever, there are moments like that where like the weight of the world is on your

62:54shoulders. If, you know, if you're, if you're thinking about theological, uh, sort of consequences

63:01of just simple word choices or simple idea choices, but you've got multiple texts, you

63:10know, multiple source texts that say kind of different things or very different things

63:15or whatever. Like that's, yeah, it's, it's just, it's just not a simple, easy process.

63:22And I think what I'd like people to take away from this is that there are a lot of judgment

63:27calls that go on like not just one or two, but on texts like this, there are multiple

63:33different judgment calls that are, that are taking place under the hood of this translation.

63:38And a lot of people want to base a lot of convictions and arguments and things like that

63:43on a translation that they may prefer without knowing how much the translators behind that

63:50are, are responsible for, for what they're reading. And we, we even saw with the NET that

63:56they might prefer a reading and they might, they might clarify that there's debate here.

64:02And then they might totally mislead you on the, the research behind that debate or as

64:08we saw with the NRSV, they might not even let you know that there is debate underlying

64:15this and on what this can mean. And so I would like for people to, to realize that the,

64:21the translations they hold in their hands are, are not, you know, the, they're not perfect.

64:28They are a, they are the encapsulation of thousands and thousands of judgment calls.

64:37Some of those stronger than others, but none of them is free from the judgment of, of imperfect,

64:45fallible human beings who are frequently motivated by theological concerns and things like that.

64:52And also for, for selling their books, it's going to be difficult to, to move a lot of

64:57Bibles. If you're saying stuff that's just going to tick off the people who buy Bibles.

65:02I don't know, you might do pretty well. They might buy it just so they can be mad about

65:07it. I, I recommend it personally.

65:09Yeah.

65:10The controversy gone.

65:11Yeah. I'm, I'm working on my own translation right now. I'm, I haven't touched it in a

65:15few months just because I haven't had the time, but I'm almost done with Genesis. And I'm,

65:20I might talk to a publisher about releasing like Genesis, the, the DMV, the Dan McClellen

65:30version. I'm going to, I'm going to start the, the new controversial version, the, the

65:37NCV and it's just, I'm just going to find all the controversies. And I'm just going to

65:41go with whatever was controversial, piss people off the most.

65:46And you know what? I think the, the odds of getting that right would probably be higher

65:51than chance. So that's probably true. That's probably true.

65:57I think it would be true. Yeah. So, I know if I do, but, but at the same time, like, if

66:02I try to do, if you do that, there are going to be times when it's like, yeah, pretty sure

66:09this is wrong. This is definitely right over here, but, or, or you could say it's 50 50.

66:14It could be one. It could be the other. And you don't want to, you don't want to load

66:18down your translation with all kinds of like alternatives. Like there are some translations

66:23that will bracket put in brackets, like alternative translations, just so you have them all. And

66:28those tend not to do very well at all. Well, this is what I was thinking when, you know,

66:32as we are looking at all of these different verses and we're clicking on, you know, I'm

66:35clicking on footnotes left and right and trying to figure out like, like, look, the Bible's

66:41already hard enough to read. It's already very thick. It's weird language. It's ancient.

66:48It's there's plenty of stumbling blocks just trying to read the damn thing adding to that.

66:55Like, Oh, I got to check in with 15 footnotes in this chapter alone. It's just too much.

67:03Yeah. And, and that's the, the one other thing that I would say about Bible translations

67:07is what's the best Bible translation, whichever one is going to do what you are reading the

67:13Bible in order to do? Because there are some folks who want to get in, they want to get

67:18a hip deep in the complexities and they want the notes and they want to be able to say,

67:24what does this verse over here say and flip to it and ah, good. There's a, there's a detailed

67:28footnote that's telling me there are folks who want that. There are other folks who just

67:32want to be able to sit down and read and get lost in the narrative or in the poetry. And

67:37there are people who, who translate the Bible that way where the, the poetry is, is in poetic

67:44typesetting where they don't even have chapter and verse numbers where it's divided up according

67:49to sense unit and it's all in paragraphs or, or you might just have the verses listed on

67:55the, in the margins. They don't interrupt the flow of the text and you don't have any footnotes.

68:00So there, and you know, some Bible translations are intended for missionary purposes. Some

68:04Bible translations are intended to facilitate administrative concerns. Some Bible translations

68:09are intended to combat competing religious groups. Like you can translate the Bible in

68:16so many different ways to do so many different things. And if your translation does precisely

68:21what you want it to do, then that's the best translation for you. Um, and, and when it comes

68:27to most original, like there's no such thing. I, I get that question a lot, which is the

68:31closest to the Hebrew saying, that's, that's not really a thing. Good luck. You can just

68:36go get the Hebrew if you want that. Um, because the closer you get to the Hebrew in English,

68:41the less and less you're going to understand what it's saying because the less and less

68:44it is actual English. So it's a movie target. It's messy. Yeah, it's a messy thing. Um,

68:52I, I, gosh, there were so many things I wanted to get into. And I think that we're going

68:57to get into a few of them in our afterparty. Uh, so anyone who wants to can follow us over

69:03to Patreon. If you're already a member at the $10 a month or more, uh, level, you can,

69:09you can hear our afterparty. We'll probably, I'm going to start us off by talking about

69:14theology just as a concept because I want to talk about theology. We had somebody right

69:18into us, uh, and just say, Hey, you know, let's, can we talk a little bit about what, what

69:25it means to have a theological podcast. Anyway, we're going to get into theology. And so a

69:34bunch of other stuff, uh, in a much more, like less formal way over on in the Patreon, uh,

69:42bonus episode. So if you want to, you can go to patreon.com/dataoverdogma and sign up

69:48there and then you'll get, uh, early and ad-free versions of every episode of the show, plus

69:55the bonus content if you sign up at the right level. So, uh, so that's exciting. Otherwise,

70:00thank you for listening so much. And oh, and you can reach us by writing into contact at

70:06dataoverdogmapod.com and we'll talk to you again next week. Bye everybody.

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