Ep 111: Just the Tip?

00:00you never know when God's gonna pop up and decide to kill you that reframes a

00:06little bit the the popular Latter-day Saint painting of Jesus in the middle of

00:10the night knocking on that hey are all of your children's penises intact because

00:17I'm not that hey everybody I'm Dan McClellan and I'm Dan Beacher and you're

00:28listening to the Data Over Dogma podcast where we increase public access to the

00:33academic study of the Bible and religion and we combat the spread of

00:37misinformation about the same how are things today Dan things are great things

00:42are great as in in our timeline you and I just got back from our the first leg of

00:48our tour yes our multiverse that's right for our listeners that's still a week or

00:55two ago I don't know I don't know when this thing comes out but it was a it was

01:00an amazing time we had such a good time we met so many of our listeners and

01:05viewers and that was fantastic so yeah I'm still riding the high baby yeah and

01:11we're about to head out again and on the 17th which would be will this be out by

01:16the 17th probably I don't know I don't know who knows who knows the stuff

01:21happens maybe when you're listening to this we're in Dallas or we're in Atlanta

01:28or something who knows yeah who knows but yeah that was a lot of fun and and I'm

01:34excited about today's show I think it's gonna be fun yeah we're we're tackling

01:39two spiky issues sensitive issues yeah yeah interesting stuff so the first thing

01:50we're gonna do it's gonna be our who dat and we're gonna talk about Jeff the

01:56which is fun as fun to say as it is to talk about and and and an interesting

02:03decision that he made and what what followed thereafter and then we are

02:09going to talk about something that keeps coming up in the Bible and keeps

02:14confusing me and making me feel weird so that's gonna be circumcision and that

02:20that'll be in the second half of the show if you're squeamish you can listen

02:25to that one on double speed or something like that yeah get through a quicker

02:28whatever you need to do but let's dive in with who that and this who that comes

02:39to us from judges chapter 11 we're gonna start which is where we begin our

02:46journey and and I don't I don't have any background for this the judge the whole

02:52thing of judges as a book is just that it's kind of like a series of leaders

02:59of Israelites a good way to think about it is if you imagine like film how you

03:08have frames and then there's a there's a you've got a framework around the

03:13frames which is used to feed the film and everything like that it's kind of like

03:17that we have these little narratives about these judges who are ruling or

03:23judging within certain parts of ancient Israel and Judah and in certain time

03:29periods and there's kind of this narrative superstructure that is

03:33connecting them all together that is a later editorial product but somebody

03:39basically was like we're gonna tell all these stories about the judges and the

03:42idea is there was no king in the land everybody just kind of did their own

03:46thing and then God would occasionally inspire or guide or possess one of these

03:55judges and they would then go on basically a killing spree sure like you

04:02do in in some way they are serving the interests of of the tribes and they're

04:09usually there's a lot of conflict between the tribes as well in this

04:14period and the judges are not phenomenal models of good behavior some of them

04:21are are kind of held up as here's what not to do but they end up serving their

04:27their purpose they end up helping Israel in some way Samson is a good example

04:33of that he's a tragic tale of a man and his his jawbone of an ass yeah who ends

04:40up taking out himself along with all the Philistines so he's kind he's kind of a

04:45disaster Samson is yeah yeah and and Jeff that is gonna turn out to be

04:51disastrous in a kind of I guess who know I mean I guess yeah I mean he I'll say

04:58this for the guy he he does what he's a man of his word yeah and and as as we're

05:04gonna see that whoever's telling this story they're not really passing

05:09judgment on Jeff the we get a sense one way or another that the author is good

05:16bad or indifferent in terms of of what's going on here it's just kind of it feels

05:21like it feels like in the Bible if if no judgment is passed it feels like it's

05:29kind of the thumbs up it kind of gets the okay because usually if it's a if

05:34it's a really bad person mm-hmm you're gonna hear phrases like and they were

05:39wicked and they were bad unto the Lord or whatever well and we're gonna talk

05:44about one reason that God doesn't seem to be passing judgment on what's going

05:48on yeah here as well okay but so let's get to the story I love that it starts

05:54that the very first thing we learn about him was that he was the son of a

05:57prostitute yes so he was a Gileadite and Gilead was his father and Jeff the by

06:07the way this comes from in Hebrew it's Yiftach which comes from the verbal root

06:14Patach which is also the name of a vowel in Hebrew but it means to open and so

06:19it's probably a justive may he open probably God and the idea is probably

06:26the womb so this is making childbirth possible so it's probably a name that

06:34was given to somebody where they're like hey my son let's name him you know God

06:40has opened or may God open or something like that so that is a crazy thing to

06:44name a child I mean yeah I don't I don't understand I mean I understood the words

06:50that you just said I don't understand why that would be a thing that you would

06:53then go okay let's name a child that well okay let's not get hung up names are

06:58weird names are weird absolutely so yeah he's the illegitimate son of Gilead

07:04and Gilead's wife has other sons and so you know it's like the he's the the

07:13black sheep of the family because he was from you know that lady that dad used

07:18to bring over every he's the John Snow is the Ramsey Bolton of the family so he

07:26runs off and Lynn lives in the land of Tove which means good in Hebrew but he

07:34has literated tobe in the energy yeah well because Tove is spelled tet vav bait okay and a bait can be

07:43pronounced as a but or of a okay and so here it's it's tove and I have a

07:51friend named Emmanuel tove okay it's a it's not an uncommon last name but he he

07:57amasses friends who are outcasts and so basically he forms a gang yeah and they

08:08go they go about raiding you know this is their their Friday night activity is

08:13which is which is which is the part of the story that you really want to hear

08:17but we don't focus much on that yeah and you know this is very little different

08:21from the story of David same kind of thing when Dave's off Dave he's he gets

08:30all these mercenaries around them and and they they go about a raiding as well

08:35yeah so and then the Ammonites come and they make war against Israel as one does

08:42yeah sure by the way I had a comment you know how I talk about things being my

08:47won't I was told in no uncertain terms that I'm pronouncing that incorrectly and

08:52that it is actually pronounced want so that when you pronounce it I mean I

09:00perfectly standard pronunciation yeah and also a good way to differentiate it

09:05from want which is from W.A.N.T. which is a totally different word so why not

09:10pronounce them differently yeah but anyway the elders of Gilead are like hey

09:16these guys are sticking it to us Jeff the you and your your little ragtag group

09:25of undesirables you can fight why don't you come and you lead us against the

09:30Ammonites so we can you know whenever I hear Ammonites I think of the the

09:38fossil and so and so and he's and he's basically like you guys kind of you

09:47know ran me away from home and what are you gonna give me let me let me let me

09:52I just tell you want me to lead you here when we come back do I lead you then

09:58question mark and he he says look I'll come back I'll fight with the Ammonites

10:06if God delivers them into my hands yeah I'll lead you guys I'm I'm the boss

10:13then yeah yeah if this if we do this then I'm in charge yeah and the elders of

10:21Gilead say yes sir yes sir absolutely they are desperate yeah yeah and so he

10:28becomes a commander he goes to sends messengers to the king in the Ammonites

10:33and you know it's basically like come and get it and they there is some back and

10:40forth about who's who has the right to the property yeah in dispute and that's

10:45interesting it actually it is interesting oh okay I will tell you

10:50exactly why okay because in verse verse 17 there's there's a little there's a

10:54back-and-forth and and Jeff as messengers go to the king of Edom and say let us

10:59pass through your land but the king of Edom's like I don't think so so they go

11:04to the king of Moab but he wouldn't so they blah blah blah blah blah where is

11:09the part I want to talk about oh there's a lot of messengers going back and

11:15forth yeah yeah okay there it is in verse 24 or verse 23 Adonai the God of Israel

11:22has conquered the Ammonites for the benefit of his people Israel do you

11:26intend to take their place basically saying you want to get conquered to and

11:31then they are talking to these other messengers and they say should you not

11:39possess what your God Kamosh gives you to possess right and should we not be the

11:45ones to possess everything that Adonai our God has conquered for our benefit

11:50yeah and this isn't this is interesting because it is the messengers who are like

11:56Israelites they're part of the house of Israel and they're basically saying

11:59Kamosh is the patron deity of your land and Kamosh has conquered that land for

12:05you and you guys should be happy with your land that Kamosh has given you we're

12:09gonna be happy with the land that our God has given us right basically is

12:13recognizing Adonai is only the God of Israel right and our next door neighbors

12:19have their own God right and that God is sovereign within their territory and

12:23also and yeah it basically does seem to imply that like look we stay on our

12:28side of the fence so that our God helps us and you stay on your side of the

12:31fence and like if we're not coming over to your side because obviously our God

12:35wouldn't be there for us there and and and they're getting a little mouthy but

12:41yeah that that's basically the idea and then we have in verse 29 this is where

12:46the story starts to turn this is the part this is the part that I you know when I

12:52dove into this thing on the web oh the internet rings its hands about this

12:58story the internet is not clear on what they're supposed to make of this story

13:04yes the the internet is very squeamish about this because they they don't like

13:09sometimes what the Bible has to say and so they have to change it well and this

13:13is a very concerning story yes true so in verse 29 the Spirit of Adonai came

13:20upon Jephthah and he passed through Gilead and Manasseh he passed on a

13:25Myspah of Gilead and from Myspah of Gilead he passed on to the Ammonites and

13:28Jephthah made a vow to Adonai so he is possessed by the spirits of

13:35Adonai and he makes a vow if you will give the Ammonites into my hand then

13:41whatever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me when I return victorious

13:45from the Ammonites shall be Adonai's to be offered up by me as a burnt offering

13:53that's unambiguous yeah the verb there is Allah which means to sacrifice as a

14:00burnt offering and it is I'm gonna Allah and Ola which means I'm gonna offer as a

14:05burnt offering a burnt offering so there's no ambiguity at all there the vow is to

14:11sacrifice whatever comes through the door talk talk me through this because one of

14:16the things I read made a very interesting point which is okay you've and and it

14:20aligns with something that you talked about but it's from a different time so

14:23okay when we talked about the nativity story and we were talking about the

14:30manger idea you were saying that in in those times animals were kept on the

14:37main floor of the house and the people lived in the second story sort of thing

14:42so yeah that's where they slept and things like that right so yeah so like

14:46one of the things that I read was like he was probably expecting an animal to

14:51emerge from from the house is does that seem like a reasonable thing yeah

14:56that's what the author is having the audience imagine okay that's he because

15:03I had never imagined that other times that I had thought about this this story

15:08because like you know in our time you don't like what's gonna emerge from a

15:12house it's not yeah whatever answers the door when I knock it's one of my books

15:17thank God it came out but no he was so we're meant we're meant to imagine that

15:23he's saying whatever animal first comes out of my house or that's what the

15:27expectation is yeah right but so it's a much more reasonable vow than when I

15:32first read it yeah and the Hebrew is a hai yah hai yot se a share yayte me dalte

15:43yeah me dalte baite so so that is and it will be that the the one coming out

15:51which leaves from the door of my house so it's a it doesn't say man woman child

15:58animal whatever it's just the agent the entity that that comes out from the door

16:03it is written specifically to trap him into this yeah the writing is is is

16:09purposefully ambiguous enough to to trap him into into what happens next yeah

16:16and and so Jeff the cross is over to the aminites to fight against them and the

16:21end of verse 32 says out and I gave them into his hand he inflicted a massive

16:25defeat on them yeah so the aminites were subdued before the Israelites yeah so

16:32total victory and and here's where we've got a question about God's foreknowledge

16:39if God is all knowing and all powerful and all those other all things all those

16:46omnes uh-huh if God is is the original omni man then God should know what was

16:54going to happen yeah and God knowing what happened went through with it

17:00anyway so and what he went through with was the first thing that came through

17:06Jeff does door was his daughter his only daughter coming out to me child his

17:13only child that's right yes coming out to meet him with timbrals and with dancing

17:18which is so cute and just twist the knife a little bit there offer sure I get it

17:25yeah and the verse is actually quite emphatic about this his daughter coming

17:31out to meet him she was his only child he had no son or daughter except her yeah

17:38like it's the narrator is like I want to be clear it's about this point you guys

17:44got that right yeah let that reader understand yeah and so so yeah he has so

17:52so now he's in a pickle because he said he was gonna he was gonna sacrifice as a

17:57burnt offering whatever came through the door boom she came through and he goes

18:06he basically says I'm gonna do it I got no yeah he's he's upset he's like ah crap

18:12I have maybe a little stronger than I'm sure yes he said alas my daughter you

18:20have brought me very low you I have opened my mouth to Adonai and I cannot

18:26take back my vow so yeah he's he's saying this is not what I wanted but you know

18:32gotta do it I love that I love that he basically blames the daughter you have

18:39you have brought me very low you have become the cause of great trouble for me

18:43like this the day of my daughters coming out to meet me and in verse 36 she so he

18:51hasn't told her what his vow was right she's like oh yeah do and she says do to

18:57me according to what has gone out of your mouth now that Adonai has given you

19:02vengeance against your enemies the Ammonites yeah and she said to her father

19:07let this thing be done for me oh no actually she knows that she does know

19:13she does know let me see if but it to do yeah I have opened my mouth to the Lord

19:19and I am not able to turn to turn away to turn yeah so she knows what what's

19:26going on here it feels and it feels like she is she's not a young she's not

19:35this is not a seven-year-old to say what she says she knew because yeah what she

19:40says is very mature and she basically just says well you got to do what you

19:46got to do but she also says give me a give me a two months to wander in the

19:56woods in the mountains I and and this is interesting and bewail my

20:03virginity yeah with with with my friends tell me about that what why why is it

20:10the virginity that she's bewailing and not the fact that she's about to get

20:14burned because she dying as a as a virgin she has no children she has not

20:22fulfilled that kind of expectation as a woman in Israel she's gonna die before

20:29she's able to do that and so I think the idea is you know if she if she died in

20:34childbirth or if she died after having children or something like that you know

20:39at least she fulfilled that expectation of of proper Israelite society that you

20:45get married yeah and so it's it's that she has died before she was able to get

20:50married it's yeah yeah she's the original incel

20:59and then so so she takes her her two month mountain vacation yeah and then

21:09gonna be gonna live in the woods like a hippie for and then foolishly comes back

21:14which that's just bad planning on her part that's a silliness I mean I read my

21:19side of the mountain when I was a kid and I I fantasized about running off and

21:24living on my own in the woods day and night that was gonna be my my Bible my

21:30side of the mountain you felt the call of the wild so to speak yeah I thought

21:36the idea of of hollowing out a huge tree and living in it was just sounded so

21:44cozy to me absolutely yeah so at the end of two months here we have verse 39 she

21:51returned to her father again that's there's your problem right there yeah

21:55who and then it says who did with her according to the vow he had made yeah

22:01which is quite explicit this very clearly says it's actually quite in

22:07what he said well the the vow was quite explicit yes and it doesn't say and he

22:13did a thing yeah it says he did to her according to the vow he had made

22:22vaya asla he did to her etz nidro his vow a share nada which he vowed yeah so it

22:32quite clearly is saying he offered her as a burnt offering and there's an

22:36argument that that what really happened is as he was like oh well I'm obviously

22:42not gonna just sacrifice you so the story doesn't say it but what I'm gonna do is

22:49just have you go you know become a nun basically go join a convent or something

22:54you have to walk on these hot coals with Tony Robbins and then you get and that

22:59will count as the burnt offering and then yeah and then you got a you got to eat

23:03nothing but but organ meat but and that's an argument front that is based on

23:11nothing other than a refusal to accept what the text very clearly states yeah

23:17I it's funny because as I read through like I said I was reading sort of the

23:22Internet's reaction various reactions to this story and they range

23:27everywhere from well Jeff that was obviously an evil guy or he was a flawed

23:34guy or whatever to you know it's it's it's all very interesting to me I mean I

23:42think they all want it want to make it this can't this can't be about you know

23:49God allowing something evil or accepting us you know more importantly or accepting

23:55a sacrifice that is horrific to us yeah so it has to be about something else so

24:02but but I you know one of the articles that I read was a really interesting

24:06comparison it did the article didn't really address the comparison the way it

24:11needed to but made the comparison between this story and the story of Abraham and

24:18Isaac and the fact that God you know command and in this case it was a

24:23commandment of God to go and sacrifice his son but at the very last minute God

24:27stops it and why doesn't this in the version that has come down to us yes

24:32oh there are snap yes we've talked about this haven't we if spoiler alert if we

24:43have it so I let me I'll just pull this up really quick here so in the story of

24:54of this you have the command to sacrifice Isaac and take your son your only son

25:02Isaac you whom you love and go to the land of Mariah and offer him there Abraham

25:06arose settled as donkey took two of his young men with him and his son Isaac and

25:11on the third day looked up saw the place far away then he said stay here with the

25:16donkey the boy and I will go over there Abraham took the wood he carried the

25:20knife blah blah the two of them walked on together yeah Isaac says father here

25:25here am I my son he said the fire the water here but where's the land for a

25:28burn offering Abraham says don't want to talk about it and the two of them walked

25:33on together uh-huh when they came to the place that God had shown him blah blah

25:38blah blah and then so whatever happens happens and then verse 19 so Abraham

25:48returns to his young men to go up one comes down now it's it's the Thunderdome

25:57and there are there's the raggedy man which is Abraham but there's a there are

26:08ancient interpretive traditions within Judaism and ancient medieval that he

26:14actually went through with the sacrifice that he sacrificed Isaac and they have

26:18they account for because Isaac is gone from the narrative for a while he comes

26:23back later but he's he's absent after this and so one I one of the accounts is

26:29that he was sacrificed he spent two years in heaven and then God oh brought it back

26:35to life okay the the ashes the the ashes of of his burnt corpse were the dews on

26:44the on the grasses of Mount Mariah were used to reconstitute Isaac and he came

26:50back to life and so there there are a few different traditions that actually

26:54interpret this story as Abraham carrying through with the sacrifice now at if

27:02that is how the story originally read and there are scholars who who have made

27:06pretty good cases that this is what it originally read it has been changed

27:11somewhere along the way so but that's a that's beside the point and potentially

27:17just ruined an opportunity for a whole other segments that's okay show but we

27:22did talk anyway someone who remembers all of our shows can write into us and let

27:26us know if we talked about it or not it is but here's the other thing at very

27:32least like what the main story that we get that we get is of Abraham Abraham's

27:39hand being stayed by God God say yes stop I was kidding can't take a joke but

27:48and unlike what one of what this blog post what this blog writer had to say

27:55because she's trying to make that comparison and and trying to figure out

27:59what's going on but she says that for the Israelites human sacrifice was wrong

28:04and you and I have talked about how there are several moments in Israelite

28:10history where human sacrifice is demanded yes and it it seems to have sat

28:17pretty close to the surface within Israelite history like as much as some

28:21people are like it was abhorrents it's like they talked about it an awful lot

28:25yeah and it always seemed to be right there it always seemed to be like you're

28:31gonna ha oh now this time you're gonna do oh just kidding and so it's it seems

28:37like it's it's the the weird uncle that no one wants to acknowledge is there yeah

28:44what is it doing there and we've talked about this before as well it

28:48probably was there probably was an archaic commandment to sacrifice

28:53firstborn children that they just had to find a way to kind of dance around

28:59without directly acknowledge I'm not gonna do that yeah yeah I mean it just

29:05seems like so many of the people you know Jeff does was Jeff that was bad or

29:11Jeff the Jeff's sin was was something along the lines of being making hasty

29:20vows or something like it just seems it just seems so interesting that I mean

29:27I guess I understand why it's hard to just say this is a tragic story but he

29:36there was no out for Jeff that it is it is tricky when when there is an

29:41example of God intervening and saying hey don't do that why didn't not intervene

29:47and this in this story well in there's an argument to make and this is not an

29:52argument that the story is good or right but there's an argument to make that

29:56what Jeff the demonstrated was the inviolability of his vow his commitment

30:03to Adonai is so utterly comprehensive and total that he will sacrifice his own

30:10child yeah so as not to break the vow and that is an ideal that like a lot of

30:17people don't want to acknowledge it but there are a lot of ways that that people

30:21will champion those who will sacrifice human life their own or others for an

30:28ideal as costly signaling as a way to show look how much this means to me and

30:35you know within the Jehovah's Witnesses for instances for instances for instance

30:40we've we've all heard stories about children who have passed away because they

30:45were denied blood transfusions because that's a very big costly signal for Jehovah's

30:52Witnesses and within the community for which that is a and an ideal they are

30:59held up as as as examples yeah of how they were willing to give up their

31:07child's life in order to follow that commandment and you know there there

31:12are a lot of traditions that talk about about how women should protect their

31:19their virginity up to and including at the cost of their own life right you know

31:26women who have been sexually assaulted who have been raped have been you know

31:30sometimes they are told things whether intentionally or otherwise they are

31:35given the impression that they should have fought to the death rather than allow

31:39their their quote-unquote virginity to be taken from them which would be an

31:44example of allowing one's own life to be sacrificed to hold up that ideal as

31:50another piece of costly signaling so but that is actually an example of that is

31:55just that is an example of abusing someone who's just been abused but that's

32:00yes yes absolutely but you're right that it's it's it's the idea of the costly

32:06signaling and yeah to me if I were to guess I would I think I would guess that

32:13the what the author of judges 11 wanted me to take away from this was the great

32:19faith of Jeff the yeah and and one of the things you get in in the next chapter is

32:25Jeff that continues to have military success so he's so he's blessed by the

32:31Lord yeah yeah like if if the message was ooh God didn't want that we would see

32:39some kind of reaction on the part of God yeah but Jeff that continues to have

32:44military success which means that at best God's like I'm just leaving this

32:50alone but more likely God is supportive of this God is like hey yeah you did it

32:56wait to go yeah yeah yeah the the Bible is not shy about telling us when God is

33:05displeased so it does seem like there's a very least God is not mad about this

33:11yeah and and interestingly there are there are folks who will be like yeah but

33:16it says everybody did what was right in their own eyes and blah blah blah this

33:21that actually comes and goes it's in waves and it happens before Jeff the

33:27arises but but God is the one who inspires Jeff the there's no part of Jeff the's

33:34career that is at all tainted by any reference to people behaving inappropriately

33:41in fact it's not until after Jeff the dies so in chapter 12 you have verse

33:50seven Jeff the judge Israel six years then Jeff the the Gileadite died and was

33:54buried in his town in Gilead and it's after that that it says and then it's

34:01after the next judge I think Elon who it's not a great judge at all but and then

34:11Samson and like it's after Jeff the's death that the narrative says and then

34:16Israel returned to its sin or something like that so like Jeff the's tenure seems

34:22to be a period of of relative prosperity peace righteousness obedience whatever

34:28it is not marked by the the condemnation that we find in other parts of the book

34:34of judges so I like all indications point to the narrators accepting this and

34:41presenting it not as a tragic tale of of moral failure but as a display of

34:48integrity and of faith rectitude yes and and that's problematic yeah yep all

34:58right well there you go fun that's a lot of fun let's move on to our next thing

35:04which is taking issue and the issue that we are going to take today and I do take

35:13issue with this is with the practice of circumcision and so I I wanted to chat

35:24about it because it is mentioned many many times in the Bible starting in

35:30Genesis 17 but I'm gonna I'm gonna start with something that blew my mind when I

35:36was first reading it yeah and this was when I was reading in Exodus it's the

35:40story you know Moses has at this moment this is Exodus 4 and at this moment

35:47Moses has left Egypt he's taken his wife he's you know he's become a shepherd or

35:53whatever and he blah blah blah he's happy and then the Lord tells him he's got to

35:56go back and he's not pleased about it whatever he takes it you you'll recall

36:01the Lord is like you're gonna go back do all this dangerous scary stuff right but

36:05I'm gonna make sure it doesn't work right exactly and Moses is like wow

36:09thanks a lot God I'm very excited about this see our show a couple weeks ago

36:13about yeah about the Lord hardening Pharaoh's heart for that but there's

36:19this weird moment so in verse 24 we start it basically they stop it in in or

36:27whatever you know they're on their way to to to Egypt but you got to stop it in

36:32in along the way you know probably a motel sex you never know maybe a Marriott

36:39property and Hebrew is Malone which just means spend in the night place okay

36:44yeah they stop at a spending the night place and on the way this is verse 24 on

36:50the way at a place where they spend the night the Lord met him and tried to kill

36:55him and that had me that had me that I had to read like 52 times before I was

37:04like did I actually catch this is that Moses what are we talking is it the

37:09innkeeper what's happening here but the remedy blew my mind even further which

37:17is that his wife Zipporah took a flint and this is some quick thinking I'm not

37:22sure who thinks of this but Zipporah took a flint and cut off her son's foreskin

37:29touched it to his feet with it or touched his feet with it I assume his is the

37:35Lord or his there's many his there's many males in this it could be the yeah the

37:44child it could be Moses it could be the Lord I'm not sure who whose foot gets

37:50touched with the foreskin yeah it it just says his feet the immediate

37:55antecedent would be her son yeah but but it's not explicit that that's the foot

38:03that is being touched okay so we don't know who and then she says truly you are

38:08a bridegroom of blood to me and then says so he let him alone it was then that she

38:14said a bridegroom of blood because of the circumcision I was mystified when I

38:23read this like she literally like she God's gonna kill her husband so she cut

38:29cuts off her child's foreskin help I don't I don't know what I'm dealing with

38:36here yeah I don't either okay we don't have any clear answers to this it's it

38:47seems to be emphasizing the importance of circumcision yeah the but yeah the the

38:55the narrative is just bizarre and you know the the fact that that Adonai meets

39:03him in the middle of the night makes people think this this sounds kind of

39:08like night demon kind of territory what's going on here there's a there's a

39:15commentary that's that I was looking at a recent one in the international

39:20critical commentary series one of my four favorite commentary series where

39:25there are three main approaches that scholars have have kind of shaken out

39:32into that I think are fascinating so one of them is Velhausen and others

39:41Velhausen was a 19th century very very influential biblical scholar have seen

39:46it against a backdrop in which circumcision was normally practiced on

39:50young men in preparation for marriage on this view the story was originally an

39:56ideological explanation for the Israelite adoption of circumcision in infancy

40:01and provides an alternative explanation to that given by the priestly source in

40:06Genesis 17 so Genesis 17 it's like covenant of Abraham Abraham do your

40:12thing yeah we'll get to Abraham we'll get to that tone that's its own I am

40:18further mystified but and so the the idea might be this is another this is a

40:25different explanation of how circumcision came to be a thing for the early Hebrews

40:31a second view we've got Meyer Gressman and others reconstructed a purported

40:38original version of a story known as the sage in which a night demon perhaps

40:45already identified with Adonai attacked Moses question mark in his quest for the

40:53eus premay noctis but was deceived by zapora's circumcision of her husband and

40:59her dobing of the blood on the demons penis this this was an ideology of

41:07circumcision as a marriage ritual so that's that's another that's another take

41:12wow and then the third one Morgenstern and Kosmala argued that originally Zapora's

41:19child not Moses was endangered because he had not been circumcised in other words

41:25God was coming for the kid and because the kid was not circumcised Zapora was

41:32like huh slice gotcha in time so yeah you don't get the kid Wow none of them make

41:42sense to a modern no sensibility no I I have not been aided at all in

41:49understanding by any of those explanations well yeah and and Davies the author of

41:54this commentary says all of these theories involve bold and unfounded

41:59speculations so then why did you tell us about them well he's recounting what

42:08what recent scholars have said but yeah it it seems to be some some way to

42:16emphasize the importance of of circumcision and and perhaps it's kind of a scary

42:22stories to tell in the dark situation yeah like hey make sure to

42:26circumcised your kid you don't want God you never know you never know when God's

42:30gonna pop up and decide to kill you yeah this that reframes a little bit the

42:36the popular Latter-day Saint painting of Jesus in the middle of the night knocking

42:41on that hey are all of your children's penises intact because I'm not down with

42:48that all right well let's get to let's get to Abraham because this is yeah in

42:55in in Genesis chapter 17 is where we first get this idea God said to Abraham

43:04this is verse 9 as for you you shall keep my covenant you and your offspring

43:08after you throughout their generations this is my covenant which you shall keep

43:13between me and you and your offspring ever after every male among you shall be

43:20circumcised you shall circumcised the flesh of your foreskin's and it shall be a

43:25sign of the covenant between you and me now that is some costly signaling right

43:32yes and then every male among you shall be circumcised when he is eight days old

43:38including the slave born in your house and the one bought with your money from

43:42any foreigner who is not of your offspring oh wow so if you yeah if you

43:46happen to be captured in battle and sold into an Israelite household like your

43:50days not getting any better yeah that's that's it already sucks for you but we

43:56got even worse news yes and you can you can admit we talked about this when we

44:03were talking about this recording this segment you can imagine Abraham getting

44:09a look in his eye and being like family meeting yeah cuz literally he'd first of

44:16all he does it to himself yeah which that is intense that is that that's a

44:23level of faith that I have never had about anything there are there are there

44:28are some illustrations of that oh my gosh in illuminated manuscripts of the

44:33Bible where he's just kind of sitting there you know man spreading with with

44:40what looks like a butter knife this kind of like new and literally when when

44:46they were thinking about like hey which stories should we do a picture of somebody

44:50was like hey I got an idea that that to me is bizarre to yeah to make to to make

44:56that choice but okay so there you go he comes off his own foreskin uh-huh

45:01then he goes to his family says boys let's let's do this thing then he goes to

45:09like everybody and he just says hey the Lord has told me that we have to do this

45:14and frankly this is where I believe we learn that Abraham is the best salesman

45:21of the universe because it would take a lot to convince most men that this was

45:27an acceptable thing to be required to do and somehow he manages to do it yeah

45:34and and the story is almost certainly in an etiology and origin story for this

45:39practice right which is causally and and historically opaque meaning by the time

45:47this is something that that you just did it was not clear what purpose it

45:51served and it was not clear why the people who started it came up with it

45:56and and we see and oddly enough you see circumcision in ancient societies all

46:02around the world really like the yeah pre-Columbian American nations who seem

46:11to have practiced circumcision and and they now one of the things they seem to

46:16have done is some kind of blood ritual where they thread something through the

46:21foreskin and like it's it's a it's a whole process but I think in the area of

46:29West Asia and Africa you do see it in some early Egyptian art where it seems to

46:37be associated with some kind of rite of passage because it's young men who are

46:41having it done to interesting and some scholars speculate this this might

46:47have been done because of some kind of perception of of purity maybe this is

46:52this is something that is perceived to to result in a more pure whatever they're

47:01you know medically there are people who argue that that there are benefits to it

47:07but the that is fiercely debated by by an awful lot of people that and what

47:12benefits are touted are are vanishingly minimal yeah they exist but but it's it's

47:22a lot it's not it's not much to justify a procedure that is not particularly

47:29dangerous though it is like anyway we we can get into it I just yeah I will say

47:37I don't I think it's fascinating it like the practice is very common now in the

47:49United States it's not as common in in Europe but I I think it's it's I mean do

47:56you know why I have you read up on why it's very common in the United States

48:01even even among non-Jewish men I have not read up on why John Harvey Kellogg oh

48:09that that makes it I think I have heard that the lunatic who who gave us corn

48:14flakes but then also was this weird health nut who was well weren't the corn

48:19flakes supposed to like keep down the urges or something like yes yes everything

48:23he did was about making it was about tamping down sexual urges and like his

48:29whole idea was if we started if we start back up circumcising the boys again it

48:34will keep them from masturbating which I can attest no didn't work no that that's

48:42not true at all but it is sad because that the foreskin is actually has a lot

48:48of nerve endings and so like it will it does diminish sensitivity to do this

48:56thing yeah I am personally like you know this is a very personal decision and you

49:01know I'm not telling anyone what to do but I am personally wildly against this

49:05practice I think it is I think it is horrific myself I I don't you know if you

49:12want to do it as an adult knock yourself out but to do it to it yeah baby is weird

49:17anyway but but I think what I heard you say and I want you to confirm this is

49:24is the idea that we just have no idea why this has why this practice started or

49:31or why it was done in the what like where it came from yeah we we don't have a

49:37clear idea but it is something that seems to pop up in different parts of the

49:42world that very clearly were not influenced by the practice in other

49:46parts of the world so for whatever reason people were noticing hey that's

49:52kind of extra so we'll just lop it off and yeah it could have to do with purity

50:02it could have to do with some perception of some kind of medical

50:04benefit maybe there were were diseases that people thought were a product of

50:10of leaving it on but it is it is a surgical alteration that's yeah we we

50:17cannot directly account for however and and I've talked about many things

50:21becoming identity markers once it becomes an identity marker it takes on a life

50:26of its own right and and the origins are utterly irrelevant and and that's when

50:32it is it exists for its own sake it exists to mark who's in and who's out and

50:38when we get down into the Greco-Roman period and you had a lot of social

50:43interactions and and you know sporting competitions and things like that that

50:47happened in the nude suddenly you were pretty conspicuously Jewish and if if

50:57you were circumcised and there were some other ethnic groups that practice it

51:01around that time but but the Jewish folks were the the most well-known it

51:06becomes a more stark more conspicuous identity marker which means it is going

51:14to become even more deeply entrenched precisely as an identity marker yeah so

51:20it's a bizarre way that that happens but yeah we we don't know exactly why it's

51:27first popped up and for those who suggest it first popped up because God told

51:31Abraham to do it I mean go ahead not yourself out but that is that is an

51:41etiology the the account in Exodus 424 may be a separate distinct etiology

51:47either way they don't seem to I think shine a very good light on on the

51:53originator yeah of this requirement I did want to get to one other interesting

52:01idea about circumcision and that is the idea that within the early Christian

52:08church it became a really big thing to have relics of saints of holy people

52:14yeah after they die you know a finger would be a thing or a hair would be a

52:21thing or some a vial of blood of saint so and so would be a thing and obviously

52:26like the most treasured relic would be something from Jesus but alas he didn't

52:33he stopped being dead so they couldn't have any of his body parts except

52:38there's one piece that was missing and that is what is known as the holy

52:45prepuse yes which is a fascinating thing have you done any research at all have

52:52you looked into the any of that stuff the history of of claims of the foreskin of

52:58Jesus as a relic I have actually seen foreskin relics okay but not not Jesus

53:05okay there are reliquaries there are places around Europe where they have

53:13collections of what are supposed to be the four skins of of saints and ancient

53:21early Christians so I have not seen one that that that was labeled Jesus but I'm

53:28sure there are there are more than a few of them out there well yeah there were

53:33many claims made and at one point even like Charlemagne was meant to have given

53:40a relic that was considered that was believed to be the holy prepuse to

53:45Pope Leo the third I think that that's very interesting but the the most

53:51interesting claim I think that has been made about Jesus's foreskin is that when

53:58they first got telescopes good enough that they could see into space and they

54:03could see Saturn they saw that it was encircled by something and the theory

54:11became one of the theories presented was that that was Jesus's foreskin I'm not

54:18making that up I don't know what I don't know what journal published that it's

54:23it exists how that got through peer review but yeah that's interesting I

54:29suppose that's that makes just as much sense as any other theory about Jesus's

54:35foreskin but yeah I'll I'll let you guys do your own do your own research on that

54:42one but that that's a that's a pretty fun one anyway I hey yeah I don't know

54:48what to conclude from any of this I think that we're it we've just backed

54:51ourselves into one of those weird corners and we can just leave it at that

54:57it is yeah it's definitely a firmly implanted tradition in in the scriptures

55:05it's something that was very important to ancient Jewish folks as as it became a

55:10way to distinguish themselves and also to put on display their fidelity to the

55:16expectations of of that identity and we didn't even mention David and Saul no we

55:24did not mention David's 200 foreskin Saul was like get me a hundred Philistine

55:30foreskin's ha that'll he'll he'll die doing that and David comes back with I

55:35got you a hundred extra on the house who couldn't use that the the very first

55:42cartoon I drew for biblical archaeology reviews cartoon caption contest was a

55:49drawing of David holding up a sack of a bloody sack and Paul just kind of being

55:57like oh if King David offers you calamari do not accept I'm that's all I'm gonna

56:04say all right that it's getting gross in here well I will leave it at that if

56:10you have have not turned off the show because things got very weird just now

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