Ep 134: Don't Get Cross With Me

00:00So when you go to the Trump rally and you see the people wheeling around their full cross,

00:08that is historically inaccurate and they should know better.

00:11It's also symbolically inaccurate, but that's okay.

00:14That's a question for another time.

00:16Hey, everybody, I'm Dan McClellan and I'm Dan Beacher and you're listening to the Data

00:25Over Dogma podcast where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible

00:29and religion and we combat the spread of misinformation about the same.

00:34How are things today, Dan?

00:35Things are good man today as of today as we record.

00:40So, you know, a week and a half ago for all y'all.

00:45We won a signal award today.

00:47Yeah, we got the gold.

00:49There were there were a few golds in our category, but we also had the added distinction

00:54of winning the listener's choice award in our category of religion.

00:59That's you guys.

01:00You guys did that.

01:01So, thanks to everyone who voted for us and we won a major award, a major award.

01:10And we were talking about how we need to get our medals, well, trophies that can be requested

01:18that we have to pay for.

01:21Because, you know, there are a lot of winners I imagine they're like, can't be sending these

01:28out to everybody.

01:29So, anyway, hopefully in the near future, for those of you who are watching the YouTube

01:36video, you will see these awards, these trophies in the background.

01:40Yeah.

01:41Yeah.

01:42We're very fancy, you guys.

01:43And I don't know if you know this, but we are fancy boys.

01:48And as of your hearing of this podcast, I will also hopefully successfully be on the other

01:52side of a dreaded procedure that afflicts men of a certain age, specifically 45.

02:00Thank God.

02:01You mentioned the colonoscopy.

02:02I think that that's a very important thing for us.

02:06But if you're watching on the on the YouTube, you will see Dan take swigs of a very bright

02:13yellow concoction that is, I understand to be a lemon lime sports drink mixed with the

02:24most hate mix with some stuff that we don't need to talk.

02:31I read these instructions again and again and again and again and again.

02:37And then when I'm ready to do the thing, I look back and I'm like, I just want to double

02:40check, yes, it does say, jump an entire bottle of Miralax into this bottle of Gatorade.

02:51That's seven doses of Miralax and I got it down like three of those.

02:58So so Dan's going to be clean as a whistle.

03:01Everybody.

03:02Oh, yeah.

03:03And that's good.

03:04They're going to be whistling going on for sure afterwards, not before, no, no whistling

03:08it all before. Yeah, no, no rolling the dice.

03:11It's a procedure that that I as an older man than you are already know.

03:18So anyway, those of you who are of middle age will will relate.

03:23The rest of you have lots to look forward to.

03:26One of the things that you have to look forward to is the rest of our show, which we promise

03:30will be not overburdened with colonoscopy talk.

03:35No, I can't make the same promise. The occasional quip, the occasional quip, but yeah, we will

03:40belabor the point.

03:41We won't belabor the point. Yeah, our afterparty, the bonus content for our part for our patrons,

03:49I can't make any promises.

03:50We'll see.

03:51We'll see.

03:52But we got a lot to talk about on this show because today, so you're so our astute listeners

03:57will remember that a couple of weeks ago, we talked about the star of David and how that

04:03became the symbol of Judaism and then of the nation of Israel and blah, blah, blah.

04:08Blah, blah, blah seems incensely yet, but et cetera, yes, we, we yada, yada the rest of

04:16it.

04:17Right. Yeah, exactly.

04:18However, so one of the things that we wanted, one bit of feedback that we got was, Hey, what,

04:23why don't we talk about the cross?

04:25So our first segment is going to be about crucifixion and the symbol of the cross.

04:31And then we are going to move on to a chapter and verse out of Ecclesiastes that's got some

04:37stuff to do with like when, I don't know, it's got a lot to do with a lot. And it were,

04:44but it might pertain to the abortion question. It might pertain to a bunch of stuff. It might

04:51not. We're just going to have to see, we'll see. Yeah. It's a, it's an odd little duck

04:55that we found swimming around in the pond of our, of our desperation for a topic to talk

05:02about. No, I, I actually made a video this morning where I briefly addressed it. And

05:05I was like, that would be fun to talk about in a bit more detail. Yeah. Dan is constantly

05:10scooping our show on his other social media channels. It's, it's fine. I'm not mad about

05:16it at all. All right. Well, let's get on with histories, mysteries. And the mystery this

05:25week is, is crucifixion. Now there's a lot of questions surrounding crucifixion. It is

05:32definitely, there's one crucifixion that is most famous. And that is that of the guy next

05:39to Jesus. No, it's of Jesus. Yes. So let's, let's briefly talk about sort of the history

05:47of that thing that they did, that method of execution that the Romans had. Yeah. And, and

05:56what it was, why, why did they do? I don't know. I, it's such a weird thing to do. Yeah.

06:03A particularly brutal method of execution that's around the time of Jesus probably was reserved

06:09for sedition, for insurrectionists, things like that. This, this wasn't your, you know,

06:16you got caught stealing a loaf of bread at the market. Then you get crucified. It was,

06:21it was for brigandry and, and, but mainly for, for people who are challenging the state.

06:27Okay. And because it is a way to hang you up and put you on display. Yeah. It's meant

06:34to be an ignominious demise. Yes, absolutely. It's meant to be a spectacle. It's meant to

06:39be conspicuous as well. And it seems to start with, with the Romans, the Persians may have

06:51in some way and inspired what was going on, but it's somewhat related to impalement. And

06:57then there's impalement. And then there was something else that, that went on with the

07:02Greeks, it seems, where there was a, people would be like clasped, chained something to

07:11just a board. Okay. And then left out and exposed so that animals would come. Oh gosh.

07:18Yeah. And so the crucifixion is, is perhaps an outgrowth of this. Okay. But we have, it's

07:29done in different ways. And this is what I think is, is fascinating. I, it's been a

07:33while, but I made a video a bit ago about why we think Jesus was crucified on a lowercase

07:41T-shaped instrument. Right. Because there is a, there is a tradition

07:47that identifies as Christian that understands Stavros, which is the Greek word that is so

07:53commonly translated cross. It could just be a pole. Okay. So as Stavros could be used

08:00to, to impale somebody, or perhaps their hands would be in some way a fixed to the pole above

08:08their head together, whether nailed or lashed or, or whatever. And so there, there are some

08:15folks who point out that the New Testament doesn't really indicate one way or another

08:23if Jesus was crucified on this T-shaped cross or on something else. And the earliest depictions

08:30we have of crucifixion, we actually have a couple of, of graffiti that one dates to

08:37around 130 ish CE and the other one dates to around 200 CE. Okay. And the earlier one,

08:44it's called the puteoli grafito. And it depicts some poor dude named Alchemilla, who is up

08:55on top of a T-shaped instruments and lowercase T lowercase. It seems to be. Yeah. Now the,

09:04the, the top, the, the vertical bar doesn't extend significantly beyond the cross beam.

09:12The pettibulum, if you're nasty. I am. That's the, the Latin name for the cross bar. Okay.

09:22But it definitely depicts this person with their arms outstretched on a T-shaped cross.

09:27But that's coming about a hundred years after Jesus. Right. And it's, and it's definitely

09:31not Jesus on that cross. The next one from around 200 CE is Jesus. And this is the Alexa

09:40Menos grafito where this was like scratched in the walls of a, was probably a barracks

09:47where soldiers were stationed and they're making fun of some dude who's, who's another

09:53soldier named Alexa Menos because they're, this name also occurs in like another room

09:58elsewhere in the building. Wow. Yeah. It's not a popular dude.

10:03Evidently, no, it was a pretty sick burn because it has him in kind of a prayer posture in

10:10front of somebody who is on a cross. Again, a lower shaped T cross only with the head

10:17of an ass. And then there is an inscription that says Alexa Menos worships his God. Okay.

10:25And so it's kind of like you're, you look at you worship in your, your, uh, your donkey

10:30headed crucified God. Yeah. I think I remember us mentioning that on a, on a previous episode.

10:36Yeah. That's okay. So at very least from then from that time, it seemed that crucifixion

10:44was a, a cross. Yeah. But, but we do have some indications that, uh, that what is described

10:54in the New Testament is describing, uh, an upright beam and then your cross beam, the

10:59vestibulum. We can go back into, um, I think this is, uh, from around, uh, the first century.

11:09There's a text called, um, the Oniro Kritika, which is, um, basically dream interpretation

11:15by, uh, some dude named Artemeteris. And there's a part where he talks about what happens

11:22if you are, if you dream about crucifixion. Oh, says, says this to be crucified is good

11:30for all who are sailing for in. Yeah. For in fact, the crucifix is made from wood and nails,

11:38just like a ship and its mast is like a crucifix. And so the, the thing to consider is that

11:45wood and nails means you're attaching something to something else. The, the crucifix itself

11:51is not just an upright beam. Right. And if we're attaching something with nails and it

11:56looks like the mast of a ship, what do a lot of ships have in this time period? An upright

12:00beam and a cross beam that the sail hangs from. Right. So it sounds like this person

12:07who I, and I wish I could remember better when, when this dated two, it's either right around

12:12the time of Jesus or, um, a century or two before it. Um, but yeah, that seems to suggest

12:19that we've got, uh, T-shaped cross and we've got some depictions of people who are being,

12:24um, they are, they had their arms outstretched and are lashed to a cross beam, but the cross

12:31beam is not like they're not hanging hung up on a big pole. They're standing on the ground,

12:38but the cross beam, it has poles on, on each side. So they're, they're, it's kind of like

12:43the stocks. Only your stood up and your arms are straight out in front of you, but, uh,

12:49there, there are some texts that talk about how the person would carry the cross their

12:56stavros to the place where it would be set up so that they're up there. Just, you know,

13:03kind of hanging there. Right. Um, and so the, the depiction of Jesus as having to carry

13:08his cross fits with some, just some texts that we have in Greek as well as in Latin that talk

13:14about people being forced to carry their, to the place of crucifixion. So they're not.

13:21So when, uh, when you see the full cross, when you see these goofballs carrying a full cross

13:28with wheels on the end, so they, so it's easier. That's not what it was like. It was just the

13:35cross beam that they were, that he would have carried. I see. Yes. So when, when you go to

13:40the Trump rally and you see the people wheeling around their full cross, that is historically

13:47inaccurate and they should know better and for a bunch of reasons they should. It's also

13:52symbolically inaccurate, but that's okay. That's a, that's a question for another time.

13:56Yes. Um, and so, so yeah, I think scholars have, uh, are pretty secure in the conclusion

14:02that yeah, Jesus was probably crucified on a T-shaped cross. Additionally, you have a pilot

14:09puts the sign above his head that is supposed to read, um, you know, uh, Jesus Christ, King

14:17of the Jews. And, and then you have the, it's supposed to be in, uh, Aramaic and, uh, in

14:22Latin and Greek and that you couldn't really have a place for that above Jesus's head

14:28if his arms are, uh, up above his head. Particularly if you've got that whole thing written out

14:34in three different languages to be here. Jesus hold this for us. We just need you to, your

14:39arms are, your hands are already up there. Will you just hold this? Or they could have

14:43been like, we could just nail the sign through his through the, yeah, you're already using

14:48a nail you've got. Okay. Uh, let's, we're getting darn close to blasphemy here. Uh, we're

14:54going to be offending people for not too careful, which we do anyway. Yeah, that's, that's

14:58kind of our, our policy. It's, um, it's the SOP. So the, the cross is already by the end

15:11of the second beginning of the third century CE becoming something that is associated with

15:18Christianity. Like you don't, uh, take the time to inscribe a cross with Jesus with the

15:25head of an ass hanging on it. If that's not immediately recognizable as, Hey, that's that

15:30one dude that everybody worships. Yeah. And that's interesting because it does seem like

15:35like the point of crucifixion was for it to be sort of deliberately shameful and public.

15:42So it, so it sounds like there was, uh, evidence that even early Christians were sort of taking

15:50that and sort of owning that symbol as something that was, uh, not necessarily something to

15:56be proud of, but something to that was that martyred their, their, their guy. Yeah, it

16:03was a symbolism. It was the symbol of his, his martyrdom. Well, and it's a way to appropriate

16:09it to, um, to kind of flip the script on right on the people who would understand it as,

16:15as, uh, represent shameful. Yeah. So, so rather than a symbol of like humiliation or, or defeat

16:25or whatever, it becomes, uh, and I think I read something. Tell me about this. I think

16:30I read something about early Judaism having a, uh, if you were, if you were to be executed

16:39in shame, you would be hung from a tree. Oh, so there's a, there's a passage in Deuteronomy

16:46that, uh, that talks about hanging, um, criminals, but it says, if the, uh, I think it's as if

16:53the next day is the Sabbath, you got to take them down before nightfall, because cursed

16:58is everyone who is hung on a tree. Okay. And so, and, and the word for tree in Hebrew

17:04eights can mean tree, but it can also just mean wood or something made out of wood. Oh,

17:10so when you get into the new Testament, I think it's Paul who brings this up, uh, but

17:16is, is using the Greek way, which is also ambiguous. The word for tree can also just

17:21mean wooden thing or wood. Um, and so there's some ambiguity there, uh, regarding, um, you

17:27know, you squint at Jesus on a cross and hey, it becomes a wooden thing. It becomes wood.

17:33It can overlap with this idea of being hung on a tree. So, so there is a, um, a degree

17:39to which the New Testament is like, you thought it was a curse, but you know, Sunday, Sunday,

17:45Sunday, you can rent the whole seat, but you'll only need the edge because the, the defeat,

17:51the symbol of defeat has been turned into the symbol of victory. Okay. Um, and there, there

17:56are other earlier symbols that, that seem to be more prominent than the cross and early

18:01Christianity, the fish. Um, because the word in Greek for fish, if these, uh, is an acronym

18:12for Jesus Christ, uh, God's son, savior. Okay. Uh, so that's, so if these is an acronym

18:20for that, and then the symbol of the fish does that. And then you could also draw a circle

18:25and then have some lines dividing up the circle, uh, to make it look like a loaf of

18:29bread. And, and you can trace the letters, uh, Iota, uh, he, uh, the, um, or theta, excuse

18:39me, uh, epsilon and, uh, sigma to spell out if these, and then the, uh, and anchor was

18:47a, uh, a prominent symbol in early Christianity. Interesting. And then the, uh, the hero monogram

18:54which looks like the X with the big tall with a P sort of standing proud, but it's actually

19:00a row, which is the heart sounding Greek, right? Yeah. And that would be the first two letters

19:04of Christos, um, which the, uh, the hero. So those were probably more prominent than the

19:12cross, but there is indication that, uh, that people would like trace a cross on their forehead

19:18when they're praying and, and stuff like that. So the cross is there. Um, but we don't

19:24have, it's in the mix of Christian symbols, but it's not the prominent one. When does

19:29it start to become like what, what made like it? It is very strange to me that the instrument

19:38of this man's death becomes the, uh, the symbol for the entire religion. Like, uh, it just,

19:47it seems, it seems like that is the other guy's symbol. You know what I mean? Like that's

19:52the bad guy's symbol. Yeah. So that. So how did it, how did it arise to the, to such

19:59promise? Do you have a sense of that? Um, I, I think it probably has to do with Constantine

20:04and because the, there's the famous legend of the, uh, the battle of, uh, uh, uh, Melvin

20:13Bridge, uh, or Millvian Bridge. I am just pronouncing everything wrong today of Millvian

20:18Bridge, where, where he's supposed to have seen, uh, a sign of a cross or the hero or

20:25both and who have heard the voice in this sign conquer. And so that is, uh, and you know,

20:33is what is supposed to have inspired his, his victory there. And then that leads to the

20:38edict of Milan in 313 CE, which decriminalizes Christianity. And then the hero and the cross

20:46become, uh, symbols of Imperial power. I guess that's the, it makes sense to some extent

20:53that like, you know, I'm thinking of it as the, as the symbol of the bad guys. Well,

20:58who are the bad guys Rome? You know what I mean? In this case, the, the bad guys, and

21:03then the bad guys are like, uh, you know, they embrace Christianity. And suddenly, yeah,

21:09I can suddenly their symbol, the one that that's most closely associated with Rome in

21:17the Christian sort of narrative becomes the symbol that they go with. That's, that's

21:22really fascinating. Yeah. And, and it's cut it as a, you know,

21:26you have folks like Irenaeus and others talking about the symbolism of the cross as a sign

21:33of victory and things like this. And so Imperial victory then going, ah, sign of the cross.

21:40It becomes kind of a different kind of symbol of victory, but something that is apropos for

21:47Christianity's marriage to Imperial power and the use of, of symbolism to project that power.

22:00That's, um, victory that, that the Roman Empire was, uh, so concerned to, to put on display for others.

22:08So I think that's probably what results in the popularity of, uh, the cross as a symbol for

22:15Christianity that, that, um, eclipses, uh, the other stuff, the fish and, and all of that until

22:23you had the invention of the car, which allows you to create the bumper sticker, which allows you to

22:28put the, um, you know, the, that costly signaling on your car until you then get feet and the Darwin

22:39fish, that fish grows feet and then suddenly, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so I think that's probably

22:45what's going on with the, uh, the use of, of, uh, that symbol. And yeah, it has a weird history

22:55within, within Christianity. Uh, you know, you have some groups that, that don't use it, uh, the

23:00tradition that, uh, you were getting out of around the time I was getting into it or shortly before

23:07Latter-day Saint tradition, uh, does not use the cross. That's right. Any more. There was a time

23:14in its history where the cross was an important symbol. Right. Uh, and, uh, and there was a campaign

23:21to, to get rid of that. Interestingly. Yeah. Well, I remember in church talking about it,

23:27like hearing people very proudly talk about why we don't use the cross and why, you know, how that

23:34makes us actually better Christians than the other Christians who don't, who, you know,

23:40who do use the, the symbol of the, of Jesus's death for his thing. And, uh, and yeah, that,

23:47that was always a little weird to me, but, but sure. I mean, I'm the one making that argument

23:53now. So I suppose. Well, and, and I think it reveals one of the, the issues with symbolism is

24:00symbolism means whatever people think it means. Right. And so if you want to change it, you can

24:06change it. Yeah. And you know, you, you, you've, I think it was probably President Hinckley,

24:12a Latter-day Saints president and, and prophet who said, well, we, why don't you use the cross? Oh,

24:17well, we choose to focus on Jesus, uh, Jesus's life, Jesus as alive rather than the method of his

24:24death. And, and so that's, that's as a contemporary rationalization. Great. But Latter-day Saints

24:31started off using it. Right. I used it for, for many, many years. So, uh, it meant something different

24:38back then to them. Uh, and you know, you can go, I remember is kind of a, uh, a little off track,

24:45but when I was, uh, 18 or 19, I forget how old I was. I spent a summer in Germany, in Austria,

24:52in Slovakia, in Switzerland, traveling around with my brother and my, my grandmother. And she

24:59arranged for us to attend a high school in Vienna for a day. Oh, which was, which, uh, was an

25:08unusual experience. It was surreal to say the least, but, um, there was, there was one part where, uh,

25:15one of the students, they were like, yeah, let's ask them questions. And this is half going on in

25:20German and half going on in English. Cause my German was better back then, but it still wasn't,

25:24wasn't, um, all that great. They were like, what's different? English was fine. Their English was

25:29fine. Yeah. Um, the, the, somebody asked what's, what are differences between your, the high school

25:35that you went to in this school? And, um, I was like, well, the crucifix on the wall is one, but

25:40also the playboy calendar over here is a, uh, there, I remember there was a calendar that had,

25:47like lingerie models and, uh, hanging on the opposite wall. I was like, both of these are,

25:53are just alien to me. But, um, yeah, that was, um, that was a fun experience. Jim was, was weird,

26:00because, uh, if I recall, we went, uh, and played tennis on top of a building. They had,

26:06they had tennis courts built on top of a, a building in, in Vienna. Try not to hit the balls too far

26:11afield. They have big nets to make sure that, uh, that we didn't, but yeah, my brother and I,

26:17that's all we wanted to do. Just be just see who could, who could hit one the, the, the furthest

26:22get to the cathedral or something. But, um, the, there's an interesting thing about the, the

26:28crucifix because it's not just the cross. It's the cross with Jesus hanging on it. And it is used

26:35as an icon. It is used as, um, something that is involved in worship, which, you know, these days

26:45on Twitter, uh, the Protestants are, are all in a half about, well, mainly the evangelicals. They're

26:50all in a half about Catholicism. Um, and yeah, that's one of the main things that they talk about.

26:56The, uh, the iconic use of the crucifix. And there are some people who will compare it to

27:04a story in the book of numbers where, uh, there are these fiery serpents that bite a bunch of

27:10Israelites and, and they're dying off. And then God tells Moses, take a poll. Right. And then

27:17put a bronze serpent on the pole and everybody, you know, one of those bronze serpents that you

27:22have, you got laying on it. Just, just grab one. The junk drawer is full of the animal kingdom

27:29in bronze. So just pick a serpent serpent. So that's a lizard. Yeah. Oh, serpent. Okay. Here we go.

27:35Okay. Um, and put it on the pole and then whoever looks at it will be healed. Yeah. And, and this is,

27:42this is functioning as a divine image because it's basically, uh, manifesting the power of the

27:50presence, the authority, the agency of the deity in, in this instance, in order to heal. Um,

27:58and then that gets, that is referred to as nahushtan and that gets placed in the temple and it becomes

28:04an object of worship. And so once you get to Josiah, um, no, I'm sorry, not Josiah has a kaya.

28:11You get to has a kaya and he's like, we can't have any more of those worship in nahushtan. So they,

28:15they bring it out of the temple and destroy it. Uh, but I, the, there are a lot of folks who

28:21will use that story as kind of the type, the, um, template, the inspiration for the idea of

28:31Jesus on the cross. Look to Jesus on the cross. And so if you have the actual physical, um,

28:39example of that, that makes it much more useful. So like is, and we've talked a little bit before

28:45about using the Bible as an icon. Right. Uh, like, you know, somebody's always going to whine about

28:51it. But I mean, if that helps them focus their faith, if that ties what they believe into the,

29:00the macro narrative that we find laid out in, in the Hebrew Bible and in the New Testament,

29:05if that, uh, you know, ties the room together as the great poet once said, um, I, I don't see any

29:12reason to get upset about that. So, uh, yeah, that's how it's functioning. It has precedence,

29:18in scripture. Um, and, and, you know, using material media, uh, is, is something that goes on in the

29:25New Testament as well. It's, it's not really a different from them. And it's not like we don't see

29:29evangelicals like praying towards images of Jesus. You know what I mean? We do see that. We see that

29:37all the time. Yeah. So, uh, or, or, or, or genuflecting or bowing or something. There'll be a cross

29:45behind them or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. So I, yeah, it is, but yeah, it makes sense to me that,

29:51that as a, that, that to use a symbol to sort of focus yourself. And so yeah, when you see, uh,

29:58you know, you go into a Catholic cathedral or whatever and somebody's looking up at an image

30:04of Jesus on the cross and praying, yeah, that makes sense. That's a, that's, it's just, it's just a

30:11place to put your focus. Yeah. And, and as we've discussed before, it's, it's not much different

30:17from somebody talking to a headstone in a cemetery as if they're, they're talking with their deceased

30:23loved one. It is intuitive. It is natural. It's how human cognition works. So, so lay off. And if you

30:31ask them, it's not like they're going to say that they expect that thing to climb off the wall and,

30:37and bless them or whatever. You know what I mean? They know that that's not, that that's not the guy.

30:42Yeah. That's just, uh, that's just the image. That's just the symbol. Yeah. All right. Well,

30:47there you go. Uh, it's, it's one of, uh, the, the cross, one of history's mysteries, uh, explained,

30:55revealed here on, on the show. Well, and there are books and books and books more that could be

31:01written on, on, uh, the history and the usage of that symbol, but hopefully that was a, um,

31:06a good cursory overview of. Yes. Exactly. Why we think it looked the way it did and how it's been

31:12used. All right. Let's move on, uh, to our chapter and verse. And this week's lesson

31:24is from, uh, Ecclesiastes chapter 11, chapter 11. Yeah. This is an odd one. This is not one that

31:32people are going to be like, Oh yeah. We, uh, my pastor preached about that last week.

31:37All right. Nobody's pastor has ever preached about this passage about, um, yeah. So, uh,

31:43I don't even know that I know anything about Ecclesiastes. I don't even know what the word

31:47Ecclesiastes means. Well, the Hebrew is Cohellet. So that should clear things up for you. But, uh,

31:54thank you for doing that because I was, uh, I was unclear. And now it's all come clear to me. Yes.

32:01Ecclesiastes is where we get the, uh, um, the wonderful song, uh, to everything turn, turn, turn.

32:08There is a season, um, yeah. And I, I'm pretty sure I've butchered those lyrics, but, um,

32:14there's a, it was probably written in, it's attributed, I think it's attributed to Solomon,

32:22which it obviously isn't actually written by Solomon. Um, but it is probably written in a third

32:29century BCE. So it was probably written, um, in the, uh, Hellenistic period. Okay. You see some, uh,

32:39there are some loan words from Aramaic, uh, a couple that seem to be Greek. So it, and it is

32:44addressing, uh, some more Greek themes, but it is, uh, the chapter 11 verse five is just talking about

32:54the mysteries of God. Um, and verse five says, I'm going to read it in a few different translations

33:02first in the King James version, uh, the Paul's version, um, as thou knowest not what is the

33:11way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child, even so thou

33:17knowest not the works of God who makeeth all. You don't know that. You don't know these things.

33:23You don't know what's going on. What is the way of the spirit? I'm pretty sure that that was a

33:27kung fu movie. Wasn't it the way of the spirit? Uh, well, it is, uh, Derek Haruach, uh, in,

33:34in Hebrew. So, uh, the way of the spirit. Yeah. That was, um, oh, I'm trying to remember the name

33:41of the, uh, the kung fu movies from Bob's Burgers and I totally blanked the lock and chick movies.

33:48Lock and chick. Yes. Um, and the seaweed monster. Um, so that's a, that's a pretty traditional

33:56in, uh, translation of that. However, the first two clauses could also be put together into one

34:02clause. And this is what the NRSVUE does because it says, just as you do not know how the breath

34:09comes to the bones in the mother's womb. So you do not know the work of God who makes everything.

34:17That is very different. Very different. Yeah. And it all depends on whether or not you want to,

34:22you know, put a, uh, a comma or a semicolon or an M dash, if you're nasty. I get, I get told all

34:29the time, people will be like, Hey, just be careful using the M dash because people think

34:34you're using AI. It's like screw AI. I've been using an M dash. Look, since the internet started,

34:41I will not have this. I am an old school M dasher and, and that Johnny come lately,

34:47chat GPT can, can go M dash itself away. Uh, good recovery. Way to stick the landing there.

34:57Thank you. But, but this is an interesting passage because, um, I've talked to a lot in the past about

35:08how, uh, the mainstream Jewish position on insolment on fetal personhood is that the fetus doesn't

35:16become a person until it draws its first breath until birth, basically. Right. But that's not

35:22entirely accurate for the entire Hebrew Bible because in Greco-Roman period Judaism,

35:29there was influence from Greek philosophy toward this Aristotelian notion of insolment where the

35:35soul entered the body once the fetus had become fully developed. Right. And the evidence of that

35:40was the quickening where the mother can feel the fetus moving independently in her womb. And so,

35:47if we take the NRSVUE's reading, just as you do not know how the breath comes to the bones

35:54in the mother's womb would suggest this is a reference to the quickening where,

36:01where the fetus moving independently is compared to breath coming to its bones. Um, and so,

36:10breath is being used synonymous for life here. It's coming to life, meaning breath is coming

36:18to its bones. And so I, I think it's an interesting intersection of the pre-existing view that breath

36:28is the fundamental constituent element of life. Meeting the new Greek philosophically

36:37influenced view that the quickening is an indication of life. And so we're talking about

36:44the quickening as breath coming to the bones in the mother's womb. If that's how this passage is

36:52to be interpreted, I think that's an interesting, uh, that would be one of the only occurrences in

37:00all the Hebrew Bible of a position on fetal personhood that differs from the traditional

37:09Jewish perspective that the human life begins at birth at the drawing of the first breath.

37:15Right. I, can I, can I just add an interesting wrinkle to the mix?

37:20Wrinkle it. Because I too looked at multiple different translations.

37:23Okay. NIV, which I would expect. Oh, don't bring up the NIV.

37:29Hang on. Just kidding. Go ahead. Hang on with me. Hang with me here because I would expect NIV

37:34if there is an option to like signal fetal personhood. Yeah, I would expect NIV to run

37:42toward that option. Yes. Uh, but they don't. Okay. NIV instead has it as, as you do not know,

37:50the path of the wind or how the body is formed in a mother's womb. So you cannot understand the

37:57work of God. Yeah. And that's, that's fascinating. That's, that's about as far as the A does not

38:04mention spirit. B does not mention breath. Yeah. But, but, but makes it a totally different thing

38:12unrelated to the fetus thing. Just like, you know, all we are is dust in the wind, man.

38:18Until you can paint with all the colors of the wind, you do not know God's ways.

38:24And yeah, the, so the word, uh, that they're, you said they, they rendered wind.

38:30Yeah. They, it says, uh, as you do not know, the path of the wind. Yeah. So that would,

38:35that's a whoa, which can fundamentally it refers to wind or breath. Okay. And spirit was conceptualized

38:44as kind of related to breath, wind, because you can't see it, but it's moving around.

38:51And so you have all those different words used, uh, to refer to spirit, breath, wind. But what's

38:58interesting is it says the path of harua, which means the spirit. So it could be

39:06the spirit of God, like a, like a fire is burning. Uh, it, it could be a reference to that or, or it

39:15could just be, um, you know, the, the spirit that enters, uh, the, the fetus's body and, and makes

39:24the bones come to life. Cause it, cause when we go to Ezekiel, we go to Ezekiel 37, the, the

39:30valley of dry bones. It's, uh, it's usually translated breath. It's, I'm almost positive.

39:39It's Ruach there, but it's usually translated when the breath enters the bones. Uh, but it's

39:47talking about, it could be the, the spirit. Let me see what, uh, NRSV, UE says here. Um, in Ezekiel,

39:56yeah, prophet Ezekiel 37, nine, then he said to me, prophesy to the breath, prophesy, mortal,

40:04and say to the breath, thus says the Lord God come from the four winds, O breath and breathe upon

40:10these slain that they may live. So the, the valley of dry bones is going to have sinew and muscle and

40:16flesh. Um, you know, go to it and then the Ruach and, and is that Ruach? Yeah. That's how Ruach is

40:25going to enliven things. So, um, but yeah, they, they go with breath there in, uh, the NRSV, UE.

40:34And I imagine, yeah, any T says breath. KJV says breath. I imagine your, your dirty little NIV is

40:42going to say, uh, breath as well, but I don't have a, for some reason, I don't have the NIV in my

40:49accordance. Okay. Uh, they probably were like, yeah, don't, don't, we know better than that. Yeah,

40:54you don't want to, uh, you know, it's, it's so interesting. I, you, you know, we con, we talk

41:01constantly about how, uh, how translation makes like the, the task of translation and how it's,

41:11and, and the task of interpretation. And, uh, it's just interesting to me because every now and then

41:19you and I will see someone in a comment section or someone online talking about how I'm, I'm the

41:26real kind of Christian. I don't interpret the Bible. I just believe the Bible. Yeah. Just listen

41:31to what it says. And it's like, how, when there are three totally valid interpretations or told,

41:39or totally like understandable reasons why you would say spirit, wind, breath. And, and those can

41:46mean three wildly different things. Uh, you know, is it the way of the spirit or is it the way or

41:53is how the breath comes into the, the, the bones of in your mother's womb. It just seems like,

42:02uh, it's so obvious. And what's really funny is that most of those people who are like,

42:07I don't believe in interpreting the Bible. Yeah. They're KJV people like straight down the line.

42:13They're hardcore KJV. So to tell them, Oh, well, the NRSVUE would give you some ammo in the, uh,

42:20in, in the, uh, abortion fight. That's an interesting thing to tell them. But, uh, they may not, you know,

42:29but they're KJV people. They can't. Yeah. They're, it's funny when you'll,

42:34cause every now and then you'll see somebody's preaching, somebody's making a, uh, you know,

42:38a TikTok video or something like that. And they will furtively switch translations.

42:44Uh, and, and it's fun to see them getting called out for that. Yeah. Yeah. Because they'll realize

42:51that, Oh, uh, this translation over here is good for what I'm saying in this part of the verse,

42:55but, uh, the next verse, I need to be in this other translation over here. So, so sometimes they

43:00will just very quietly, uh, switch translations for precisely that reason. But yeah, and, and with, uh,

43:08Ruach, that goes all the way back to Genesis one. Um, how do you translate, uh, Genesis, uh, one,

43:15two, where, uh, you've got the, uh, Ruach Alohim, um, Rahafet al-Peneha Maim, which in the King

43:24James version is the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. But that could be a

43:30divine wind. Uh, that could be, uh, it could be God's breath. Uh, it could be the spirit of God.

43:39It could be interpreted in a variety of different ways. And so what are you going to,

43:42and the NRSVUE says, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.

43:49Interesting. Yeah. Translation makes a, makes a big difference. And when

43:56folks who do not, do not understand the, the complexities of translation and philosophy,

44:02or even of, of picking your source texts, how did you come up with the source texts you're using?

44:08Uh, you know, because when you look at Ecclesiastes five, the, um, or excuse me, Ecclesiastes

44:1511 of five, yeah, uh, the, some of the cancellation marks might indicate that, uh,

44:26might push you in the direction of one interpretation over and against another. Whereas if you ignore

44:31the cancellation marks, you, you might be led in the direction of a, of a different interpretation.

44:36So all those decisions that you make, meaning that the, the, the diacritics and the Hebrew,

44:41is that one? Yeah. Okay. So the, the Hebrew, the, the Masoretic text, it has the vowels.

44:47Those are, uh, our dots and dashes that are written above and below. And then you have, um,

44:53the Dagesh, which is a dot that's put in the middle of characters, but then you also have

44:58in the Masoretic tradition, what are called cancellation marks, usually. And these are

45:04indications of, uh, how singers are going to in tone. Oh, right. And also, um,

45:13canters. Okay. Yeah. And, and they also associate words together. Like you, you'll see, um, disjunctive

45:21or conjunctive, uh, marks indicating we're taking this word with the next one and, and stuff like that.

45:27So, so that can influence how, uh, one interprets it as well. Okay. And then, you know, you might go

45:33look at the Septuagint. What does the Septuagint have to say here? That, that would be as close as

45:38we can get to an ancient commentary, you know, a third or second century BCE commentary on the

45:43Hebrew. So, so usually we can understand this is how, at least whoever translated this, understood

45:51this text in the third or second century BCE, which gets us a little closer to when it was

45:57originally written, or at least the Ecclesiastes, you know, maybe it was the, the dude's neighbor,

46:02who translated it because it's already Ecclesiastes and Daniel are probably the two

46:09latest texts in the entire Hebrew Bible. Ecclesiastes is probably third century Daniel,

46:14middle of the second century. But, um, I think it is fascinating to see maybe, again, depending on

46:21how you translate a little window into this, uh, Greco-Roman influence on, or yeah, Greco-Roman

46:31influence on, on Jewish understandings of installment. And then, you know, the Septuagint

46:35translation of Exodus 21 indicates that and Philo's discussion of, of installment indicates that. So,

46:43I think it's just another interesting piece of the puzzle. Yeah. Yeah. I think, I love that.

46:48I think that that's really fascinating. Yeah. All right. Well, friends, thank you for joining us.

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48:35Anyway, uh, thank you all so much for joining us and thanks to Roger Goudy for editing.

48:41We'll talk to you again next week. Bye everybody.

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