Ep 52: What is a Woman... Biblically?

00:00The scholarly consensus is that there was a story about a dude named Elkinan who killed

00:06this giant named Goliath, and suddenly there's a five-finger discount going on by whoever

00:11is responsible for the David history.

00:15And this just makes perfect sense of how his tradition developed over time.

00:21Hey, everybody, I'm Dan McClellan.

00:26And I'm Dan Beecher.

00:27And you are listening to the Data Overdogma podcast where we increase public access to

00:31the academic study of the Bible and religion and combat the spread of misinformation about

00:36the same.

00:37How are things, Dan?

00:39Things are good, man.

00:41Today's show is a heavy hitter.

00:44It's a big one.

00:45I'm looking forward to it.

00:46I think maybe we'll be combating some misinformation or maybe we'll just be muddy in the waters and

00:52confusing everybody about everything.

00:54You know what?

00:55Sometimes that's what you've got to do to advance the football.

00:59That's right.

01:00That's right.

01:01So today, for our first segment, we've got a Bible versus Bible contradiction watch Bible

01:10style.

01:11And then at the end of the show, we are going to be taking on one of the questions of our

01:17time, a big deal question.

01:20I will make sure that I provide a trigger warning that we will be discussing some things

01:25that might be difficult for people who have been beat up a little bit based on their sexual

01:30identity.

01:32We're going to be asking and or answering the question, what is a woman?

01:36So biblically, biblically speaking, what yeah, because here's, yeah, we'll get to it.

01:41We'll get to it.

01:43But first Bible versus Bible, we're going to introduce our teams.

01:51We actually have one side of this is a second Samuel 21 Missouri state.

01:59The other side is first Chronicles chapter 20 from Ball So Hard University.

02:05And we have two different tellings of more or less the same story, but they are going

02:15to present a different picture and that picture wildly conflicts with one of the most famous

02:21stories from all of the Bible, namely, David and Goliath.

02:25Yeah, I was surprised you didn't start with first Samuel because, because that's sort

02:30of our, our, our, our base point, our, the, the, the, the, the story that we're all familiar

02:37with is the story from first Samuel 17, I think it is chapter 17, about David killing

02:45Goliath.

02:46David is a little up and comer on in the Israelite army.

02:54Goliath is a very large, already up and came over on the Philistine side.

03:02And, and so, and, you know, we all know the story, David has a little slingshot, being

03:09bang, boom, down goes the giant sort of thing.

03:13And it's an interesting story, if you read it closely, David doesn't kill Goliath with

03:18the slingshot.

03:19Oh, that's a good point.

03:21He kills him when he cuts his head off with the sword.

03:24Yeah, the text actually says he killed him and cut his head off.

03:28And so, yeah, the slingshot basically incapacitates him just knocks him out.

03:33Yeah.

03:34Okay.

03:35And so it's, it's an interesting little thing that generally we, we kind of scoot past without

03:42paying too much attention.

03:44But I bring up the other passages because they reflect a different take and they actually

03:53conflict with each other.

03:55And one of them says, as well as conflicting with first Samuel, as well as conflicting

03:59with first Samuel.

04:00Well, one of them does not because the, the secondary one actually tries to massage the

04:05text back towards what we see in first Samuel 17 and, and the question we're, we're trying

04:10to answer here is basically, who killed Goliath?

04:14Now you mean that's not a settled question after the conversation we just had?

04:20You would think it, it, we're settled, but we have this interesting story when we go

04:24to a second Samuel 21 where we have a story about four different giants who are, who are

04:32called the, the children of the giants who are killed by different people.

04:37And this is kind of like this, this is lore, this giant lore.

04:42And so this one giant showed up and, and this guy killed him and then this other giant showed

04:47up and this other guy killed him.

04:48And so in second Samuel 21 verse 19, I'll go ahead and read it from the NRSVUE.

04:59Then there was another battle with the Philistines in a place called GOB and Elkhannan, son of

05:09Jare or Egeem, the Bethlehemite, killed Goliath, the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was

05:15like a weaver's beam.

05:17And the interesting thing here is this notion that Goliath was a Gittite and the shaft of

05:23whose spear was like a weaver's beam is word for word, how Goliath is described in 1 Samuel

05:3017.

05:31Right.

05:32So when we're talking about Goliath's out there, this is the one who had the spear, right,

05:36whose shaft was like a weaver beam.

05:37We're not, we're, they're not that many Goliath's with enormous shafts and don't spear shafts

05:43to be clear.

05:44Don't let, let's, let's get your mind out of the, out of the Philistine gutter, please.

05:51And so, um, it seems like the, the killing of Goliath is being attributed to some dude

05:57named Elkhannan.

05:58Right.

05:59Um, and then we look at 1 Chronicles 20 verse five and we have a slightly different telling

06:05of the same story.

06:06It says, again, there was war with the Philistines and Elkhannan, son of Jare, killed Lachmi,

06:13the brother of Goliath, the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver's beam.

06:19Okay. So we have a second, Samuel 21, that seems to be telling a story that is a little

06:25contradictory to what's going on in 1 Samuel 17. And then we have first Chronicles 20, which

06:30seems to be going back in the direction by identifying, uh, this individual, this giant

06:37that was killed as Goliath's little brother, right. And this actually contributes to, uh,

06:43a, a bit of ice to Jesus, a bit of reading into the scriptural text that I have always

06:49found fascinating. I have seen a number of videos and people have preached sermons on

06:53this where they say, why did David pick up five stones from the creek when he only needed

07:00one? It was the very first one that killed Goliath. And they say it was in case his four

07:04brothers came after him and then they go into this, they go into this story about how Goliath

07:09had these four giant brothers and David was, uh, was concerned that they might come after

07:14him too. Once they saw that he had killed, uh, their, their big bro. And so that, what

07:21that story does is it looks at second Samuel 21, which talks about these four different

07:25giants that got killed. Right. And first Chronicles 20 says one of them is Goliath's brother.

07:30And so they think, well, all four of them must have been Goliath's brothers. Yeah. And

07:34so that's why. And so people have preached wholesome. I mean, it's plausible. You could

07:40make that or possible at least. Yeah. Yeah. I would say it's, uh, it's about the same

07:45as, uh, as Russell's teapot that, uh, so I think it's better than Russell's. I think

07:52they've got, but they've got Russell beat. Bertrand Russell, uh, went a little too far.

07:58Okay. We're not, we're not that far out in the stratosphere then. Um, but, but there's

08:03an interesting, um, there's something interesting that bubbles to the surface when you look into

08:07the Hebrew of the difference between second Samuel 21 and first Chronicles 20, because

08:13second Samuel 21 called Elhanan son of Jare or a game, the Bethlehemite and Bethlehemite

08:20would be, um, bait, lock me. And when we look at first Chronicles 20, Elhanan was the son

08:27of Jair who killed lock me. Right. The brother of Goliath. Uh, and basically the Hebrew is,

08:36uh, there has some kind of fuzzy edges that kind of overlap with each other where if you

08:42just tweak a letter here and a letter there, you can get from one to the other. And so

08:48some people have said, well, this was textual corruption. Somebody mistook one letter for

08:52another. And then the next scribe down the road was like, well, this must be some dude

08:57named lock me. Um, and other people say it was intentional, but the direction of change,

09:04I would argue indicates that the first Chronicles reading is the secondary one is the later

09:12one is the corrupted one. And that is the one that identifies lock me as the one who

09:17was killed as the brother of Goliath. And there are a few reasons for this. Uh, one

09:22is that lock me would be, uh, a name that means my bread, which is not a naming convention

09:31that we know from, from this time or place. Nobody called their kids my bread. Um, additionally,

09:37it would be a Semitic name, not a Philistine name because the Philistines were not a Semitic

09:44people when they first arrived. It was not until the centuries after that they began

09:49to, um, kind of merge with the Semitic people. So Goliath is a Philistine name. The notion

09:55that he would have a brother with a, with a, um, Semitic name that meant my bread is pushing

10:03it a little bit. The other issue is that, uh, the word brother is probably a corruption

10:10of the direct object marker. So when you do something to a direct object in Hebrew, you

10:17don't always have to, but you can indicate what the direct object is with this, uh, two

10:22letter word at olive tov. And this, uh, this just indicates that's, that's who, um, this

10:29happened to, and in English, we use word order in like German, you use cases, uh, the accusative

10:35cases, the, as the object and so forth. Uh, and at could be confused for ah, which would

10:42mean brother, but only in the Aramaic square script and the Hebrew Bible would not begin

10:52to be written down in the Aramaic square script until the post-exilic period. And between

10:59second Samuel and first chronicles, uh, first chronicles is the later text, the one that

11:04would have been written in the post-exilic period, which would have been recorded in

11:08the Aramaic square script. That's the one where we would expect to see a confusion like

11:13this happen or it, or it may be an intentional change. And so what it seems happened is that

11:19second Samuel 21 seems to preserve an alternative story, at least a, a, a brief mention of an

11:28alternative story regarding the killing of Goliath. And then first chronicles 20, which

11:33is being copied down much later, seems to recognize there's a problem here. And so kind

11:39of massages the text a little bit to distance, uh, or to reconcile the, the, the problem

11:47and say, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, Elkhanan didn't kill Goliath. Elkhanan killed this

11:51dude named Lakshmi who was the brother of Goliath. And so we have an attempt to try to make the

11:56contradiction go away. I, I, I, I, okay. So when I was looking at this in preparation

12:04for the show, I, I knew that that was going to be one of the possible explanations. Uh,

12:11that one of the possible explanations is what you just laid out. Yeah. Uh, so I went and

12:16I also read, uh, an, an explanation from an apologetic source. And I got to be honest,

12:23it also seems totally reasonable to me. Just it's just in the other direction. It seems

12:29totally reasonable to me that chronicles and first Samuel are in harmony and that it was

12:38this, it was a mistake of the set, the writer or a translator or a scribe of second Samuel

12:46that got the, the, the brother thing wrong or, or the sort of mix that up. So I, I just

12:53wanted to blow your mind by saying like, the apologist, uh, like, I, okay. So going into

12:59this, I didn't know any of these, you know, the linguistic things that you know, I didn't

13:04know how much, uh, the Bethlehem thing lines up with the brother thing or whatever. I'd,

13:11but just on its face, it seems reasonable to say, uh, that if second Samuel is the place

13:21where it got it just wrong and it's just a couple of verses. It's not, it's not, you

13:25know, repeated over and over again. Right. Uh, that would make total sense to me. Mm hmm.

13:32There are in addition to, uh, the text critical issues that I would suggest throw the weight

13:40of support to second Samuel, 21 being original. We also have a text critical principle known

13:46as Lectio de Facilior, which I think I have mentioned before on the show, uh, the more

13:51difficult reading. And this is, this is not a hard and fast rule, but it is a trend. Right.

13:58Similarly, when a text changes, it changes from a more problematic reading to a less

14:03problematic reading. Right. Somebody's, somebody's fixing something. Right. Things tend to get

14:08fixed more than they tend to get broken. Uh, when, when the text is trans, uh, being transmitted.

14:15Now you can have texts being broken, but we need to see evidence that, uh, this, that

14:22can account for why this would happen incidentally. Right. And there is, there is actually a case

14:28to make that there is, uh, there is some textual corruption in both of these verses because

14:32we have this Jare or a game, uh, is supposed to be the name of, of, um, El Hanan's dad

14:39in second Samuel 21, but that's not really a name and, um, or a game as, uh, occurs again

14:47later on in the, at the very end of the verse, because that's the word for beam, um, in the

14:53weavers beam. So like neither has a good case to make for being textually pure. Um, however,

15:01and you could make the argument that the confusion went in the direction of, um, changing lock

15:06me, the brother of Goliath to the Bethlehemite killed Goliath, but I would say it's probably,

15:14I, I would say the evidence is 80 20 in favor of saying second Samuel 21, uh, preceded first

15:23Chronicles 20 and that first Chronicles 20 is the corruption. And, uh, this would make

15:28sense. There are a lot of scholars who are written, who have written about this, the

15:32developments of the David tradition has several layers and scholars have talked about how

15:38David seems to be initially just a mercenary. He's just a Merck going around trying to,

15:46um, scrape out a living where, you know, he has to feign, uh, being insane in front of

15:53the Philistine king so he can escape with his life and he's got his little band of, of,

15:58uh, Mary men, uh, going around and, you know, robbing people and killing people and stuff.

16:03And he gets propped up in these stories as, you know, this like legendary, miraculous

16:10guy who just ascended to the throne, uh, because of, uh, how cool he was and taking over other

16:18people's accomplishments is a classic move for people who are later writing hagiography

16:25about these people. Sure. You get your guy to go tell your stories and they're going

16:30to go and steal other people's stories. And so the scholarly consensus is that there was

16:36a story about a dude named Elkanon who killed this giant named Goliath and suddenly there's

16:40a five finger discount going on by whoever is responsible for the David history. And this

16:47just makes perfect sense of how his tradition developed over time. Do we think that first

16:53Samuel was written after second Samuel? Uh, the, no, they're, they're basically part

17:01of the same text. However, there are many layers to the whole thing and some of those

17:06layers are earlier and some of those are later, they're drawing from, uh, a variety of, uh,

17:11of traditions. So somebody, somebody could have just been adding some stuff, some fun

17:18stuff to first Samuel and then forgot to tell his buddy, Hey, by the way, delete that out

17:22of your version on the second Samuel part. I got this over here now. Yeah. Putting this

17:27for David or yeah, they, that, the whole David tradition could have been developed on one

17:33by one team and then later on down the road, the other people were like, Hey, we got to

17:37put all this other history on here. Okay. Let's just slap it on there. And there wasn't

17:43somebody going through at the very end to make sure all the, um, the eyes were dotted

17:48and the teas were all of, there wasn't a continuity person. But right. There was, there was no

17:53style committee, uh, that went through, um, however, at the same time, maybe there was

17:59and they could have easily looked at this and been like, yeah, we can deal with that.

18:04That's, that's no, that's, that's not catastrophic. Or we'll just kick the can to whoever's going

18:08to write chronicles. Yeah. Yeah. Which is somebody in chronicle. Will you fix this later? Fix

18:12it in post chronicles. Yeah. I think, uh, I think we might be surprised how frequently

18:19a lot of these authors and editors were just like, we elect to punt. I, I, you know, the

18:28more I dig into this book, the, the more I wouldn't be surprised about how often that

18:32happened. Yeah. They're like, we're just trying to clear tickets, man. He's trying to clear

18:36tickets and get it off my desk. That's right. That's right. Well, that's a, that's a fun

18:43story. Uh, Elhan on, uh, David, whoever it was, whether, yeah, Goliath versus his brother

18:51bread, what was it? My bread, my bread. Uh, all right. Well, that's great. I, I like it.

19:00Much more difficult topic coming up. Everybody strap in, you know, put on your seat belts

19:04and, uh, let's move on to taking issue, taking issue. Uh, the issue we're going to take today

19:19or tackle is one that is tricky. Uh, a, a real dingbat of a guy named Matt Walsh made

19:29a whole movie called what is a woman? Yeah. Where he thought he had the best gotcha in

19:36the world by asking a bunch of people what that is. Uh, Dan, you're our linguist. What's

19:43the definition of a woman? Yeah. So, uh, we've, we've got a show on why I don't like definitions,

19:52don't we? Somewhere in the back there. Yeah. That's, that's, this is like a gotcha that

19:57is, uh, about at the same rhetorical level as pronouns in bio opinion, um, rejected. That's

20:05right. Yeah. It is a defined woman. And I, and it's annoying for me because it's like,

20:10I don't define anything. Like I have dogmatic about avoiding definition. So this, this isn't

20:16the gotcha. You think it is, but, uh, but yeah, you normally the, the traditional definition

20:21and, and I was making a video about this earlier today, just cause I'm in a little spat right

20:26now with somebody about definitions. But, um, there, there is no the dictionary. There

20:33is no the definition. There are definitions and none of them has any authority over anyone

20:41else. Um, you know, the, the ministry of what words mean doesn't exist. And they did not

20:48crown any definition. Uh, the, the king definition of, of what is a woman. Cause that would technically

20:55infringe the ministry of what words mean does exist. I think, but, but it doesn't actually

21:00have any real authority beyond, uh, because people can use words to mean whatever they

21:06want. It's not like the, the ministry falls out of the sky. If you use a word, a way that

21:11they don't approve of and they, and they beat you up or something, the black helicopters

21:15come. Yeah. Or like the words get stuck in your throat and you're kind of like Jim Carrey

21:21and liar liar. That's right. The ministry has not authorized me to say this word to mean

21:26what I want it to mean. Um, but yeah, the, if you look in a dictionary, many of them

21:31will have something like adult female human. And one of the problems that, um, with this

21:38is that many people today and for a long, long time have treated the word woman as, uh, as

21:45a member of a, uh, of a gender rather than a sex. And we're going to look at an article

21:50of, uh, you said two words that a lot of people think mean the same thing. Yeah. Um, there's,

21:56uh, there's this place called Got questions. Um, your questions, biblical answers. Yeah.

22:03And, um, and they have an article question. What is the definition of a woman in the Bible?

22:08And so they're going to also, um, use sex and gender as synonyms, but, um, many, many,

22:16many, many, many people in the world today in English and, and in other languages acknowledge

22:21that these are two different things. Yeah. And maybe more than two, I, you know, if you

22:27know their two different words, it is, can we first acknowledge that like these are conceptual

22:33categories to use a phrase that you'd like to use in, in your TikToks. Anyone who follows

22:38you on any of your things knows the phrase conceptual categories, but even like biologists

22:45don't all agree on how these things work. And linguists don't all like, you can't, the

22:52reason I think that you, Dan, don't like definitions is because language isn't the precise thing

23:01we wish it was. Yeah. It just isn't. And so even the words sex and gender mean different

23:07things in different, in different contexts and different, uh, like used by different people.

23:15So I think we need to acknowledge that like it's not an easy, even if you, you know, even

23:22if you're talking to a biologist or whatever, these are not easy things to, to nail down.

23:28Yeah. It's, it's very messy. And far too many people think that, um, it's their prerogative

23:35to just assert that's their understanding, like, reifies reality or something like that.

23:43When it's like, no, the best you can do is say more people agree with my definition than

23:48with your definition. Right. And that's the extent of it. Right. Wow. More people agree.

23:52Great. Great. That doesn't mean anything. Um, and so, uh, I think, yeah, right off the

23:59bat, we need to acknowledge that this is messy and it differs from time to time from place

24:02to place from person to person. Yeah. It is, um, something that I used in my dissertation

24:07a lot that I like, uh, I, I think it's a great phrase, but a lot of people are like, that's

24:12way too confusing. It's situationally emergent. In other words, it's not there until the situation

24:20calls for it and what it shows up in whatever form it needs to show up to respond to the

24:26needs and exigencies of a given situation. But what I thought we could do here, uh, because

24:32neither of us are biologists, um, or sociologists or psychologists or any of that sort of thing.

24:40And uh, we, we could point to the fact that there is no definition of sex that also creates

24:46a hard, fast binary that works in absolutely all examples. No, there are exceptions to

24:52everything close. I mean, I mean, if you, even if you, you know, get biological, you don't

24:57get a binary. You get a whole bunch of, a whole bunch of stuff. Yeah. You get, I think,

25:03uh, a spectrum is how I would describe it. You have majorities on these ends, but then

25:09you also have a lot of integration and overlap and, and, uh, stuff in the center stuff, stuff

25:14that's missing stuff that's there twice. You never can't tell it's, uh, one from one side,

25:19one from the other. It's a smorgasbord. It's a free for all. You can't, it's, it's, it's

25:23not, it's not just a binary as anyone who's looked at it, even a little bit can tell you,

25:31but that's not our question. I think what you're getting to is that our question is,

25:36what the heck does the Bible have to say about it? Yeah. And, and I thought the way

25:40we could do that, a way we could do this is we could just go paragraph by paragraph.

25:46Oh, wow. Okay. Does that sound reasonable? Sure. Ten little paragraphs. They're like two

25:53to four sentences each. We can just skip over the references, but just, um, just read, um,

25:57do you want to read the first paragraph and then, and then we'll, uh, yeah, commentate.

26:02Oh, here we got, uh, we, we got, uh, by the way, this is the question proposed in this

26:08article is what is the definition of a woman in the Bible? And I love that they have answer

26:14as they, they have the answer. So that's good. Yeah. Yeah. We can, we can consider this definitive,

26:20I assume. Yeah. God made all of humanity, both men and women in his image. Uh, and then

26:29there's a quote that says, so God created men in his own image in the image of God. He created

26:34him male and female. He created them. That's what Genesis one 27. Uh, a woman is a person

26:43of the female gender and a man is a person of the male gender. And here female and male

26:50are actually references to sex. Um, and so the female gender would be, uh, confusing

26:57those two categories. Right. Yeah. I mean, I generally speaking in today's, in today's

27:04society, sex is a biological trait. Gender is a social construct or something like to

27:10talk. So anytime somebody says a real man does this, says this and you know, where's this?

27:18That is an observation that gender is a social construct. It is all of the behaviors and

27:23the relationships and the norms and the circumstances that are around this concept of what a male

27:31person is. Right. All right. Uh, spiritually, we're going on here spiritually men and women

27:37are equal in God's eyes. And then there's a reference to Galatians, both reflect God's

27:44nature and character, yet the two genders each possess separate distinct God designed

27:51identities. Whoo. Okay. So first thing I want to point out here is we've got some, uh,

28:00kind of locality being presupposed here. Oh, of course. And in ways that obscure, some

28:07of the things that the Bible thinks and does and says that this, whoever wrote this does

28:12not want you to be aware of or does not want to have to deal with. Uh, for instance, we're,

28:19we're merging Genesis one and two, even though these are entirely distinct creation accounts.

28:25Yeah. This is something that we've, we've been over. In fact, I think our first episode

28:29of whatever was, was about the fact that these are two distinct creation accounts. The one

28:33in Genesis two and three was earlier. And then the priestly account in Genesis one was

28:38like, uh, I don't like that other one. We're going to write a better one and we're going

28:43to replace it. And, uh, and so when you try to merge the two and treat them as one and

28:50the same, you're basically having to impose an overarching kind of unifying framework,

28:57which means it's not either of them. You've created a new third thing because you've had

29:03to say you've created a third thing that is going to subordinate the one thing and the

29:07other underneath it. And so this is not what any of the authors of any of these texts thought.

29:14This is what you think when you want to force them to kiss and, um, when you're like Darth

29:22Helmut in his room, Oh, your helmet is so big. Um, you're trying to force them together and

29:29they don't want to be together. Uh, and, and the same thing goes with, with Galatians three.

29:34I mean, men and women are equal in God's eyes. Um, not if you read several parts of the New

29:41Testament, no, if you read literally any part of this book, I'm sorry. Like I, I, I, I've

29:48read a lot and there are some nice portrayals of women. But for the most part, they don't

29:53even get names. So yeah. And they, and they even had to qualify that sentence by saying

29:59spiritually, right men and women are equal in God's eyes, which is basically like saying

30:06physically, uh, temporally in every other way that a woman can exist. She is inferior.

30:14I also think it's fascinating that in order to present equality between men and women,

30:20they present a text that their version of it says there is neither slave nor free. There

30:28is no male and female for you are all one in Christ. Yeah. Say, that doesn't just say

30:36in their equal, that doesn't say they're equal. It says it doesn't exist. Yeah. The, the binary

30:41does not exist. It eliminates the categories. Yeah. So yeah, that's, that's a big problem

30:48and, and, and partly because there is going to be a concern to preserve this complimentarianism,

30:55this notion that there are different roles and it's like, well, the roles are equals.

31:00No, one's in charge of the other. Right. Well, they're equally important. Um, no, one's

31:05in charge of the other. Um, so that is, uh, you know, the way that the, uh, the CEO is

31:12equal to the guy that vacuums his floors. Yeah. At the company. Um, it, I'll go, I'll move

31:21on to the next, uh, the next paragraph. It is impossible to consider the definition of

31:26a woman in the Bible without also contemplating the substance of a man since the woman was

31:32created from the man. Yeah. And, and, and here we're, we're going into Genesis two, because

31:40Genesis one doesn't say the woman was created from the man. Genesis one says God created

31:46male and God created humanity, male and female. He created them. Yeah. Who created, roasted.

31:54There is no distinction until you get to Genesis two and you've got the earlier problematic

32:00creation account. Yeah. Where it says, Oh, we created the one. Then he was like, something's

32:04not right here. We're missing something and then had to go and it was like, I know animals,

32:10uh, turns out Adam doesn't want to be a, uh, doesn't want to parabond with, uh, any of

32:16the animals that you created oddly enough. So we need to try again. Um, so yeah, this,

32:23that's problematic. Yeah. This, this paragraph goes on to sort of quote the Genesis two and

32:29says, then the Lord God said, it's not good for the man to be alone. I will make him,

32:35I will make a helper who is just right for him. And it stops the quote there, which I

32:39think is amazing because it pretends like that quote is about the woman. And it's not

32:46God tries a whole bunch of different animals before it like, no, dogs are pretty good,

32:52but not how about a cow, cow? Is that a good helper? No. And then the sign is the way the

32:59story is crafted. The serpent was created as a part of this as well. Yeah. Exactly.

33:03Uh, who does turn out to be quite a good helper, uh, in the end, um, but just to the woman,

33:09not to the man, uh, so and also helper who is just right for him. Yeah. Sounds complimentarianism.

33:17It sounds like she is a supplement. She is, um, just what he needs. Right. But the word

33:24there as a servant or something in that rendering, but in, but in the Hebrew, it's more like

33:30a helper equivalent to cause the word in the Hebrew means across from the idea being this

33:37is the counterpart. This is equivalent to this is suitable. And, um, and so I think that's

33:44that actually is a point for Genesis two over and against the translation that they have

33:49chosen. By the way, it looks like they're going back and forth between a bunch of different

33:54translations. Yeah, they do. Um, the NLT, the ESV, uh, because they're looking for the

34:00things that are going to best serve their rhetorical goals, but the ESV is, um, is a

34:06complimentarian translation. We would not have the ESV except for the fact that they

34:10were going to publish a version of the NIV in the United States in the mid nineties that

34:16was going to include gender inclusive language. So instead of saying brothers, it was going

34:21to be like brothers and sisters, uh, siblings or something like that. And this just sent

34:28a bunch of evangelicals through the roof. And they were like, not in my country. And,

34:33um, they got together in Colorado Springs. And, um, they actually talked to the publishers

34:39down so that they said, okay, we won't publish this translation of the Bible in the U S.

34:44And then they said, not good enough. We need our own translation so we can preserve our

34:50complimentary and gender ideology for all the world to see. And so they created the ESV

34:55and a lot of people read it these days because it's new like it was published in like 2002.

35:02And they think, wow, this is a great translation. This is, uh, up to date. This is brand do.

35:06And it's actually a bunch of people who thought the NIV was too liberal. So. So when it comes

35:14to, when it comes to, uh, what is a woman? According to the Bible and they're like, let's

35:18go to the ESV. You already know there are problems. Yeah. All right. Uh, so blah, blah,

35:25blah, blah. I'm going to go into the third, uh, paragraph as God carried out the task

35:29of creation. He observed only one thing that was not good. And it was for man to be alone.

35:36And that's again a reference to that same, uh, Genesis. Yeah. But and this is, this is

35:42one of the, the indications that the priestly account in Genesis one, it doesn't like Genesis

35:46two because what does God say after every single thing that they create? It was good.

35:52It was good because they're like, no, no, no, God doesn't create things that aren't good.

35:57Right. And, and Genesis two is like, and then God created the thing and then God, oh, God,

36:04God created a man and the man was like bored. And he was like, Oh, I didn't see that coming

36:08at all. Uh, let me, he's got anxiety. Let me, let me make you an emu and see if that makes

36:13it any better. Uh, all right. So going on the, got questions says thus, God, quote, made

36:22a woman, the Hebrew word, banana translates, uh, translated as made in this verse, literally

36:29means built. Correct? That is correct. Okay. The woman, uh, is the only created being described

36:37this way as built by God. Does it also describe her as a break? Mighty mighty letting it all

36:50hang out. Um, yeah. And, and this is, uh, you know, you, you build buildings and you build

36:56towns and you build altars and stuff like that. So it's, it's talking about the fact

37:01that God, um, took this rib, uh, well, it's actually not a rib. Sorry. Excuse me. That,

37:07that's the traditional translation. What you just blew my mind. What is it? The word there,

37:12um, actually means side. Oh, and so, and like if we, if we had to give a gloss, it would

37:19be side. And so literally it's, uh, he took one of Adam's sides and there is a, there

37:25is an ancient Jewish, um, reconciliation of these two creation accounts that sees them

37:33as, um, two, um, uh, two subsequent creations that first we have the creation of male and

37:41female together. And then in Genesis two later on, we take one half of that creation to make

37:49woman and, and how this, uh, has worked in this Jewish tradition is this was the original

37:57creation was of an intersex person, a person with male and female sexes. Sure. And then

38:05in Genesis two, what happens is basically that individual is split into this has blown

38:11my mind because side is so different from rib. Yeah. Well, it's, it's used to refer to

38:18like the sides of a ship or something like that. And I think people are, they're imagery

38:22is like, okay, you got like beams along the side of a ship looks kind of like ribs. Okay.

38:29It's a rib. Yeah, but the meaning is like, if it could be just, I mean, could it be side

38:36of the word side is used in a lot of different ways. So I'm just, I just want to dig into

38:41this. Could it mean that literally they, God took the left holes half of Adam and created

38:50Eve out of half of Adam as opposed to a chunk? So that could be. Yeah. And in fact, when you,

38:57when you look later on, what does Adam say? It doesn't say this is, this is my, my floating

39:02rib. This is, um, it says this is a bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh. And so you

39:09have bone and flesh together. Yeah. Whatever was taken off from him is bone and flesh together.

39:15And so yeah, that is, that is a, um, a rational, that is a plausible reading of what's going

39:21on here. That is entirely different. I'm sorry, like, like the meaning to me in that is literally

39:29like completely different. That's my mind is actually blown. That doesn't happen too

39:35often because usually I do a lot of like, we're research before we do our show, but like,

39:40this one, that one has me think this some head wig and the angry inch stuff. This is

39:45some good, cool, like I, I really dig that imagery of just slicing him in half and building

39:52two totally separate people out of it. Well, and then we get to Genesis two 24. Therefore

39:57a man leads his mother and his father and clings to his wife and they become one flesh.

40:02And that's basically saying sexual union is the return to the male and female together.

40:10So that's a reading within, um, that comes down from ancient Judaism that is still popular,

40:15um, with a lot of people today. It also very much sort of takes the wind out of the sales

40:21of, well, the man's the important one and the woman's not the important one because they're

40:26just the same thing. They're clones. They are the same thing just differentiated in a,

40:32in a new way. Well, we do have, we do have some, um, there's going to be a, some pretty

40:37intense patriarchy, uh, that's going to come barreling through the walls like the Kool-Aid

40:42man. Yeah. Next chapter where you have part of the curse is that, uh, your desire will

40:48be for your husband, but he will rule over you. Yeah. Um, and that's, and so one thing

40:55to point out is that, Hey, this, this patriarchal arrangement, that's, that's a consequence

41:00of the fall. There are a lot of Christians who like to say we have to try to overcome

41:06our fallen natures. Well, the patriarchy would be a part of the fall. So, oh my gosh, overcome

41:12that as well. Um, yeah, a lot. Like, like it is not like the patriarch, the, the biblically

41:21speaking, the fat, the idea of the man ruling over the woman isn't inherent to male and

41:29female. It's, it's inherent to humanity after the fall. Right. So they're, they're created

41:35as, and, and again, if you go back to what she is, she is a helper that is equivalent

41:40to, and it's only because of the fall, at least as, as we reconstruct this concept of

41:46a fall, um, that's we have this, um, this power asymmetry. Yeah. And so if you, if you

41:54want Genesis two and three to be a part of, uh, your, uh, your understanding of, of the

42:02biblical idea of sex and gender, and you want to try to, you know, mush it all together

42:07in one rather than preserve the different perspectives from the different time periods,

42:11then you should, um, pay attention to that. Yeah. This isn't a hero and sidekick thing.

42:18This is a, a dynamic duo. This is, this is a, a, a buddy comedy.

42:26All right. All right. Uh, we'll, we'll keep going with the, uh, with the nonsense from

42:34Got questions. Okay. Uh, where was I on the fourth, uh, paragraph, I think, uh, yes.

42:42When God constructed the woman, he supplied what was lacking and necessary for a man's

42:49fulfillment or completion. Gross. I think that's gross. That's a gross, and it's going

42:55to be, it's going to get even worse if I remember correctly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So women are,

43:01are there like the man was like bored and not feeling fulfilled. So that's, that's all

43:08she's for. Anyway, he was custom made to be Adam's corresponding opposite. Now that says,

43:17uh, that gives us a link to Genesis two, 21, but corresponding opposite. Does that, it

43:23doesn't feel like that's. So that's the, uh, that's the, that's the help meet from the

43:29King James version. That's the, the, uh, the equivalent helper, suitable helper or something

43:35like that, which up, uh, up above from the new living translation, they shared as a helper

43:40who is just right for him. Yeah. But I don't know about opposite. It doesn't say that anyway.

43:47Like only with God's unique gift of Eve, could Adam become not merely a solo male of

43:54his species, but a legitimate model of the human race. What? What do you say? Like, yeah,

44:02this, this doesn't make any sense. How does that follow from anything that you've presented

44:06to us in the Bible? I don't. Yeah. And, and one thing here is they continue to try to eat

44:11their cake and have it too. Yeah. Because it's Adam, Adam is not by himself. He's nothing,

44:19but with Eve, it's not the two of them are now the model. It's still just Adam who is

44:24the model, but Adam needs this, um, you know, this, uh, feature that is being added to him

44:31in order to, uh, he, it's just a supplement that his is being added to the upgrade package.

44:37Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I, it goes on to say intrinsic in the by biblical definition of a woman is

44:44this, is this quality, this gift woman is men's cooperative compliment or reciprocal. She is

44:54not merely a helpful assistant. I think you literally just said she is merely a helpful

45:00assistant or an add on accessory. Uh, literally that's what you just said fitted together as

45:07woman and men. The two becomes sim, becomes symbiotic humanity created in God's image.

45:14That's you just contradicted what you just said. Uh, okay. So, so C Dan, they do think

45:21that it's both of them together are the symbiotic humanity. Okay. Only as such do men and one

45:30woman. It keeps, yeah, uh, find their sexual counterparts and necessary pro creative match.

45:37All right. I keep thinking of the, uh, the Spice Girls song to become one. Um, I don't

45:43know. I just think, I, you know, I read several of these articles and they all eventually,

45:51and I also like watched clips. There's a real peach of a clip by Jordan Peterson where he

45:57can't talk about a woman without just all she, all he can think about, uh, that makes

46:04a woman is to do with procreation. Yeah. Like it was, it was absurd. Like, I, without

46:11a, like his contention was essentially if I were to boil it down, I believe that without

46:17procreation, you know, if a woman just chooses birth control, she's a man. Like that, that's

46:25basically what she ends up being. It's like, what the hell are you talking about? Yeah.

46:32I, I think the, he's, he's suggesting like in the eyes of society, what do you contribute

46:38to society? You're either, you're either making babies or you're making money. Um, one of

46:44the other two, because that's all that evidently matters. Right. And, uh, and if you're not

46:48making babies, well, then, um, you're honing in on, on, uh, the, the territory of the man,

46:55uh, which, which is just such a bizarre worldview, uh, because it's like women don't reproduce

47:02a sexually, like they carry, yeah, they carry children, but men and women both contribute

47:08to, uh, procreation and the notion that that it is the unique, uh, or it is the role of

47:16one of them because they happen to be carrying the child. Uh, and the other has this, this

47:22other responsibility is, uh, like, subordinates everything to this, just patriarchal idea

47:29about, uh, about power and social role and social hierarchy. Yeah. Isn't it weird that

47:36this book that was written by, by men, um, pretty much exclusively, uh, suddenly, puts

47:44the, the, the women in a subordinate place to the men. Isn't that interesting? Well,

47:50that's what the next paragraph is going to start off. Here we go. Uh, um, wait, where,

47:57what am I on? Oh, okay. Since the ancient world since the ancient world was a patriarchal

48:02society. Most written records of that time include scripture, including scripture, present

48:09a predominantly male perspective. True. And therefore so do we therefore, and that makes

48:16it good. Yeah. Uh, nevertheless, throughout the Bible, women play significant roles in

48:22the community, home and church. Different biblical words are used to refer to a woman

48:29in relation to these roles. The most general Hebrew term for woman is well, you just,

48:36he's Shah, he's Shah, uh, but it can also mean wife. Uh huh. We, we talked about that a

48:42little bit with, uh, uh, Jennifer, Jennifer. Yeah. Absolutely. Um, the Greek counterpart

48:51is Guinea. Okay. Uh, many other Hebrew and Greek words are used to describe women at different

49:00ages and stages of life. I don't know what, what point they think they're making when

49:06they say that the language refers to uses the same word for woman and wife. Uh, I do they

49:15think they've proven that the only job a woman can have is a, the only way a woman can be

49:20a fulfilled person is, I don't know, being a wife. I don't know. This, the same is true

49:24of the word for man, each. Yeah. Um, it means it is used to refer to a husband as well,

49:31but it's, it's just like, it's, it's just like the way we, we sometimes use it today,

49:35like a woman might say, that's my old man. Or that's my man or a guy might say, that's

49:40my lady over there. That's my woman or whatever. It's starting to sound a little creepy, a

49:45little, a little, a little quick as the kids would say. Yeah. And, uh, from clueless, uh,

49:52you know, I told you about calling me woman. Um, yeah. Uh, all right. The foremost role

50:00of a woman in the Bible, according, sorry, we're back to got questions here. Uh, the

50:04foremost role of a woman in the Bible is that of a wife. She is a companion who supports

50:12her husband, enriches his life and brings him joy and pleasure. So this, this is literally

50:20saying that the foremost role of a woman in the Bible is to supplement the life of a

50:25man. Yeah. And to contribute to his enjoyment of life. Yeah. It is saying that, uh, it's

50:33saying, and I love the use of the word foremost there, considering that the next sentence starts

50:39an equally defining role of women in the Bible is child bearer or mother. Yeah. I like that

50:47distinction between child bearer and mother. They are two different things. The, the Bible

50:53also, um, refers to women who are queens, women who are prophetesses, women who are generals,

51:00warriors, uh, women who, uh, do all of these things, uh, but because they're not the most

51:07frequently mentioned roles, uh, we're going to suppress those. Yeah. Exactly. Well, they're

51:14who could possibly be interested in those things. That doesn't sound fascinating at all.

51:21All right. Uh, the ideal Old Testament woman. Oh God, we're getting into the ideal Old Testament

51:27woman. This terrifies me resembles many women of strength and character today.

51:32She is dignified and virtuous. I want to stop you real quick. Yeah. We think,

51:39we think of virtuous as, as having to do with like chastity and things like that, uh, because it,

51:46it's a holdover from the King James version. But when the King James version was translated,

51:53virtue meant strength. And like, this is why when Jesus has the, when the woman with the issue of

51:58blood touches Jesus's robe and he says, I, I felt virtue go out of me. That's not, that doesn't mean

52:04that Jesus's chastity or morality suddenly vanished. He got horny all sudden. He felt power leaving

52:12him, but the word virtue gets associated with women. And so even though in, in the, um, in the

52:18Hebrew Bible, this word Ha'il, which, which means like, um, strong, powerful, when it's used to

52:25refer to men, they translate it differently from when it's used to refer to women. And when it's

52:31used to refer to women, it frequently gets interpreted to refer to some kind of moral character rather

52:37than what it refers to strength and power. Wow. Okay. Uh, yeah. I don't think that the authors

52:45have got questions knows that. Uh, she has dignified and virtuous works productively,

52:52not only at home, but is capable of running a profitable business. What, uh, supervising people

53:00with kindness and wisdom, making investments and planning for the future, all while managing her

53:07household, building a solid family and caring for the needy in her community. What are they

53:14talking about? So this is, uh, this is from Proverbs 31. This is, have you, you're not, uh,

53:20you're not familiar with, uh, with this passage. Let me, uh, this is, um, so in, in Proverbs,

53:27this is supposed to be the king talking to his son and giving him counsel. Uh, and so we have this,

53:34uh, owed to a woman of strength. And this is, this is Eshet Ha'il. This is that word Ha'il that

53:40I mentioned before. Um, but, and you know, you go look in the king James version who can find a

53:45virtuous woman. So, um, but a woman of strength who can find she is far more precious than

53:51jewels, the heart of her husband trusts in her and he will have no lack of gain. She does him good

53:55and not harm all the days of her life. She seeks wool and flax and works with willing hands. She

53:59is like the ships of the merchant. She brings her food from far away. She rises while it is still

54:04night and provides food for her household and tasks for her female slaves. How does she have time

54:10for any of this? Cause she's got a bunch of slaves. Um, okay, there is that. She considers a field

54:16and buys it with the fruit of her hand. She plants a vineyard. She girds herself with strength and

54:21strength and makes her arms strong. She perceives that her merchandise is profitable. Her lamp does

54:26not go out at night. She puts her hands to the die staff in her hands. Hold the spindle, blah, blah,

54:31she opens her hand to the poor, reaches out her hands to the needy. Um, she makes herself coverings.

54:36Her clothing is fine linen and purple. Her husband is known in the city gates, taking a seat among

54:41the elders of the land. She makes a linen garments and sells them. She supplies the merchant with

54:45sashes. Holy cow. This woman is on fire. That is a car. This is a girl boss. Yeah, man. Um,

54:55now it does have her primarily overseeing the management of the household,

54:59but this was written probably in the Persian period in the time when we're starting to get

55:04this idea that's closer to the Greco-Roman idea of the household where the woman manages all the

55:09household. Um, but, and this actually conflicts with other things. So, um, when we talk about

55:17modest clothing, we, we talked about this a little bit in modesty in the Hebrew Bible and, and even

55:23in the New Testament, you know, it says, don't break your hair. Don't put on makeup. Don't wear

55:27fancy clothes. But here it's like, no, she wears fancy clothes. Her linen, her clothes are fine

55:32linen and, uh, and purple and stuff like that. That's fancy clothes. Yeah. That's so this is not

55:37modest dress. No, this is, this is a, an ideal from a different kind of, uh, um, social standard.

55:46Uh, but yeah, this is, this is a pretty famous, um, ode to, uh, to the powerful woman. So they're,

55:53they're trying to, um, they're trying to sound egalitarian here even as they.

55:58Yeah. It's, that's crazy. Like literally the woman that they just described, first of all,

56:03has no need for a man. Like I don't like there is, she is a powerhouse. Nobody needs, she, she

56:11doesn't need anything from anybody. And second of all, I mean, this is Taylor Swift stuff here.

56:16And second of all, like she, yeah, what you're not describing is a, uh, is a, you know,

56:26a little church mouse housewife who a trad wife. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. All right.

56:33Now, whether, whether you like the, yeah, whether you like the, the Taylor Swift version or the

56:36WWE version, she's the man. She is, she's killing it. I like that. Uh, but what she isn't is like a

56:46companion who supports her husband and brings him joy and pleasure. Like that's not what that is.

56:52That is a woman. She doesn't have time to be like, yeah, go, go find yourself a therapist,

56:57honey. I'm busy. She, uh, she has a long jacket and picking up slack. Yeah. But is it touring

57:09the facilities and picking up slack? But apparently the Bible says that you can have it all ladies.

57:15So that's good. Um, let's see the, so the article goes on in the early church women, uh,

57:22ministered alongside the apostles and supported the work of the church. I'm, I'm going to have to,

57:29I'm going to have to correct this right here. Okay. Um, so one of the things they quote there is

57:34Romans 16 six. Uh, um, when they talk about ministering alongside the apostles, uh, Romans 16 six

57:43has greet Mary who has worked very hard for you. Uh, they, they skip over Roman 16 seven,

57:51which has greet andronicists and union. My fellow Israelites who were in prison with me,

57:56they are prominent among the apostles. Right. We talked about a woman's name. Yeah. So this, uh,

58:03they, they quoted a passage that does not say women ministered alongside the apostles and skipped

58:09over the passage that says, no, women were apostles. Yeah. Uh, because they don't want to acknowledge

58:18that's a woman had that role. Um, I mean, I'm impressed that they acknowledge women ministering

58:24at all. You know, so many of these articles just went straight to whatever the, whatever the one

58:29was that said women be quiet in the church or whatever. Yeah. Oh, they're going to get there,

58:33though, aren't they? Oh, probably. Yeah. Yeah. They're, they're, these have all blended together

58:38in my mind. I don't know what's coming. Um, so women administered alongside the apostles support

58:44and supported the work of the church. No, they did the work of the church hosted church meetings,

58:49prophesied, uh, mentioned, uh, mentored and taught. Yeah. And a hosted church meetings, um,

58:57I mentioned that when we get into the Greco-Roman, uh, world, you have this concept of women being

59:04the managers of the house and within early Christianity, you had women who owned homes and a lot of

59:11church, it doesn't hosted church meetings, doesn't tell half the story. These are women who own

59:17their own homes who said, you can have my home to use, uh, as a church. So it's, it's more than just

59:24hosted church meetings. These were women who owned property. Um, and we have and donated things to

59:30the church and we have funerary inscriptions and we have frescoes in catacombs and things like that

59:36that make reference to women as leaders, ecclesiastical leaders, uh, within the church.

59:42Okay. If you say so, uh, in God's perfect design for the home, he intends, oh my, oh,

59:52this is not going to go well. He intends for a woman to be submitted to the leadership of her

59:58husband. Now that, that quotes Ephesians five 22 and first Peter three, one. Yeah. Notice they're not,

60:07they're not quoting first Timothy. What is first? He's like, shut up. Um, well, Timothy's the one who,

60:15who says that, uh, you know, women, uh, don't permit a woman to, uh, well, actually it's,

60:20it's also probably the interpolation in first Corinthians 14, but also in, in Timothy, we have

60:27this idea that women should learn in silence. Right. And, and let her ask her husband when they

60:32get home. Yeah. Um, yeah. But I mean, just as good, they've got the Ephesians thing that says,

60:38wives submit to your own husbands as to the Lord for the husband is the head of the wife,

60:44even as Christ is the head of the church. Yeah. And maybe you've seen, um, on social media,

60:51sometimes you'll see this picture of three different umbrellas of the other one. Yeah. The big one,

60:56the smaller one and the smallest one. Right. Where the big one is Jesus, the middle one is,

61:01is a man. And then the smallest one is the woman. Right. And the woman's umbrella protects her and

61:07the kids and the man's umbrella protects him and them. And then Jesus protects everybody. Yeah. But,

61:17and there's a, there's another metaphor that is used to try to gin up a sense of egalitarianism,

61:24which is the, um, I don't remember what the word for it is. But, uh, it's like the fire brigade

61:30buckets, uh, that where you're handing buckets across it. And so one, somebody has to be first.

61:36And then, and then the others go go behind. So that's, that's a metaphor that, uh, that is

61:42sometimes, uh, used to refer to that. Yeah. But, uh, but this goes on. It says,

61:48a wife's submission and obedience are to be reciprocated by the husband's love and self-sacrifice.

61:56Wow. Okay. Yeah. And, and also if Ephesians, by the way, uh, and off a lot of scholars don't

62:04think that Paul wrote Ephesians that this is another pseudo Pauline epistle. Yeah. Okay.

62:08And Peter definitely didn't write first Peter. Okay. Uh, in this way, the woman's relationship

62:14with her husband portrays the church's relationship with Jesus Christ. In other words, men, you're

62:20Jesus. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Basically until he shows up, you get to be that guy. Yeah. Yeah.

62:29Yeah. It feels a little uneven. Yeah. Uh, and it reminds me of, uh, uh, oh shoot,

62:372015, 2016, somewhere around there, there was a, uh, a precinct chair in Davis County GOP,

62:44who like posted on social media that, uh, our, our society started going downhill when, uh, I

62:52forget the exact words, uh, he said, but it was basically when women left the kitchen and started

62:58voting. And, uh, and there were some people in the, in the GOP were like, uh, please don't say that.

63:05And then there were other people who were like damn straight. Yeah.

63:09And, uh, yeah, it was, it was a pretty revealing time as, uh, as there were other very revealing

63:15things going on with, uh, uh, with the election of a serial sexual predator. So, um, yeah, it was bad.

63:22I feel like this article does what so many of these articles do, which is tries so hard,

63:32as you say, to have its cake and eat it where it's like women are equal, but no man's in charge.

63:37Women are, it's egalitarian, but it's not. It's this, but it's that like you have to submit,

63:44but you have to be strong. You have to be like, again, putting no onus on men to do anything,

63:53but like love her where, whereas she has to be everything to everyone and like, and like she,

64:03and she's just there for as an accessory to help out this important, the important person who's the

64:11yeah. And in, in the last paragraph, this one sentence says it all, I think God created the woman

64:17to compliment and complete the man and thereby become a God glorifying representation of his

64:24nature and character. In other words, you're, you're being glommed onto the man, uh, to make sure that

64:31he is all that he can be. I mean, I guess, I guess the point, like one of the, the sort of takeaways

64:39of all of this is that even if you're a Bible believing person, we don't have to, like we, there

64:47are a million ways that society has improved on the Bible. The Bible, what the Bible has to say

64:52about Nintendos is not useful in a modern society and illness. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. The cause of

65:01illness. Guess what? It just, despite what some Christians still think, it's not demons. We, we

65:07learned that. We figured that part out. It's okay for us to not look to 2,000 year old, 4,000 year old

65:18texts to define how we want to do our gender relations and how we want to look at sex and gender

65:27in a modern context. And, and I think it is so disingenuous to try to, in one of these paragraphs,

65:33since the ancient world was a patriarchal society, to try to like, fob off the fact that this is,

65:39this is just straight up patriarchalism on the ancient world and said, oh yeah, they, we have a

65:46better idea now, uh, about how to make women subservient. Yeah, we have a better idea now,

65:52and that idea is do the same thing they did. Yeah. And, and really this is, this is just an attempt

65:57to rationalize using the outdated ethics of the Bible as a proof text for structuring power in a

66:05way that serves their interest today. Yeah. If, if they weren't doing that, they would take a little

66:11more seriously the differences in these texts. They wouldn't presuppose the univocality of everything

66:17from Genesis one to Genesis two all the way over to Galatians three and imagine that it all

66:22reflected the exact same perspective, because it ran a fessly does not. Yeah. Yeah. All right.

66:28Well, there's that everybody. If you would like to hear us talk a little bit more about this, and I,

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