Ep 44: Biblical Marriage With Jennifer Bird

00:00- You see this in Paul's sexuality as well.

00:03Paul is very much, in my opinion,

00:07he's suggesting one that passion

00:10is for the dirty, dirty Gentiles.

00:12- Yes.

00:13- Because sex is supposed to be holy and with honor,

00:17not with the passion of desire.

00:20- So you need to be playing none of this Luther Vandros

00:23in the bedroom, the Mormon tabernacle choir,

00:27and that's it.

00:28(upbeat music)

00:30- Hey everybody, I'm Dan McClellan.

00:35- And I'm Dan Beecher.

00:37- And you are listening to the "Data Overdog in the Podcast"

00:40where we increase public access

00:41to the academic study of the Bible and religion,

00:43and we combat the spread of misinformation about the same.

00:47How are things today, Dan?

00:49- Good, man, this is gonna be a fun one.

00:52I am looking forward to it.

00:53I always say that, but this time it's actually true.

00:57- Tell us about our guest, we've got a wonderful guest today.

01:00- Today we're talking about a friend of mine,

01:02I've been involved in a little group of scholars

01:06that include Dr. Jennifer Byrd,

01:09who is a public scholar of the New Testament

01:12and early Christianity, and just released a phenomenal book

01:16entitled "Marriage in the Bible."

01:19What do the texts say?

01:22- Scum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum, yeah,

01:24I think the audio book comes with,

01:27the audio book comes with, don't, don't, don't.

01:29And every now and then, boy, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh,

01:32and some other sound effects that Dr. Byrd recorded herself.

01:37But we're here to talk about this book

01:40and to talk a little bit about what the public needs to know

01:43about "Marriage in the Bible" and how it is quite a bit

01:48different from the way we tend to think about it

01:52and the way people tend to argue about it.

01:55- Yeah, Jennifer Byrd, welcome.

01:57Thank you for joining us today.

01:59- Thank you for having me.

02:00This is such a treat.

02:02- Wonderful.

02:03Well, it's a treat for us.

02:04We're very happy to have you here.

02:06This is a very timely book.

02:08I think this is something that it is information,

02:12it's filled with information that a lot of people,

02:14a lot of people in the public don't really have.

02:16- I don't know, it kind of seems unnecessary

02:19'cause we all know one man, one woman, we're done.

02:22- I don't know what, why do we need to have a home?

02:25- A whole book about it.

02:25- Why is there a whole book on this?

02:26- I thought it was one man, one vote.

02:28But, oh, oh, that's different.

02:30That's a different thing, Dan.

02:32- Yeah, okay.

02:33Yeah, I think it is a timely book.

02:36The debates are getting ever more heated

02:39about this kind of stuff.

02:41And a lot of it retreats back to,

02:43well, the Bible says X.

02:46And anyone familiar with our social media content

02:50knows that we're loath to suggest

02:54the Bible really says anything.

02:56That's, I get called out as a hypocrite for, say,

03:00and the Bible didn't say anything,

03:01we create meaning with the text.

03:03And then in another video, I'll be like,

03:04the Bible says this.

03:06And it's like, look, you want every single video

03:08to be like, as we create meaning with the Bible,

03:11we produce it, like it's a shorthand.

03:13- Dan, you don't even let us define words

03:15for crying out loud enough.

03:17Nothing means anything ever at all.

03:19- So. - I like it, I like it.

03:22- Yeah, I think a lot of scholars are like,

03:24I've got no problem with this.

03:26- Exactly, exactly.

03:28- I enjoyed this book quite a bit.

03:30And as we were talking a little bit before

03:32we started recording, you have a lot of little

03:34supplementary, a lot of little side bars and notes,

03:37and some of them more humorous than others.

03:41But there's a lot of great information in here

03:43about marriage in the Bible.

03:46And I think one of the interesting things,

03:48particularly when we talk about the Hebrew Bible,

03:50but also to some degree in the New Testament,

03:52is what word is not anywhere in the Bible

03:56related to the concept of marriage.

03:59And you kind of start off talking about this,

04:01what word is not really in the Bible?

04:03- Well, I'm not sure which one you're referring to.

04:06- Oh, yeah, okay, there are a couple of them.

04:07- You're talking about husband and wife.

04:09I think that's what you're talking about.

04:10Yeah, those two words are not,

04:12there isn't a Hebrew word to say differentiate

04:17between a woman before she's taken by a man

04:20and after there isn't a Hebrew word

04:22to denote a difference between a man

04:23before he takes a woman and now that he has one

04:26in his possession, right?

04:27The way we do, and that is true in the Greek as well.

04:31That was kind of stunning to me when I started making sure.

04:34You know, I was like, I get kind of why it happens

04:37in the Hebrew, but it's also true in the New Testament

04:39that it's still on Erin Gunet.

04:41It's, we don't have a different word to say,

04:44I'm talking to a person as a wife.

04:46I'm talking to a person as a husband.

04:48- It's not in there.

04:50Like, how different would everything be

04:52if we removed husband and wife

04:54from the entire Christian Bible, right?

04:57Oh, but that's too raw, Dr. Burd.

04:59That's not, you know, my woman, my man.

05:01I'm like, yeah, that's my point.

05:04- Yeah, that's when you go through

05:05and translate this stuff, it's like, yeah,

05:08there's this woman and now it's his woman

05:11and oh, my woman did this and my man.

05:13And you know, you have in Hosea where Adonai says,

05:18you will no longer call me Bali, but you will call me Ishi.

05:22And it's like that, you know, Bali, my master,

05:25is about as close as you get to husband.

05:27And God is like, no, just call me my man

05:31because we're getting away from the Bible.

05:32- My man.

05:33- My man, man.

05:35- It's only.

05:36But when we translate husband and wife,

05:38it's totally artificial.

05:40We are overlaying our cultural expectations on the text.

05:44And that includes also the word

05:47that is frequently translated to Mary.

05:49You mentioned it before.

05:50What is that verb?

05:51- That one was the big one for me personally.

05:54And then I saw the woman wife thing in Genesis 224,

05:59but right, the verb, I don't have percentages,

06:03but the verb that is the most common verb used

06:06in the Hebrew Bible that is translated as Mary is to take.

06:10And there are three or four other verbs

06:13that I address in chapter five

06:16that are also kind of lesser used,

06:18but they also are, I think,

06:20even more objectifying of women, right?

06:24So they're, you know, like you said,

06:26a reference to Baal or, you know,

06:29some form of he will dominate over her kind of a verb, right?

06:34So, and the issue I hear people kind of push back on,

06:38which I always appreciate, is when it says to take, right,

06:42a man goes and takes a woman and now he, she's his,

06:44you know, well, we say that in wedding ceremonies today,

06:48do you take this man?

06:49Do you take this woman?

06:49I'm like, yeah, but it's not the same, right?

06:51We're not talking about a mutuality.

06:54And we aren't talking about this kind of,

06:56do you take into your embrace and share your lives together

07:00in a loving and, you know, mutually supportive way?

07:02No, it's the same thing.

07:04It's the same verb that's used

07:06when God commands Abraham to take his son

07:09and go sacrifice him.

07:10It's the same take, right?

07:12It's just take.

07:13- And that's what we see with the rape of Dinah.

07:19It says he took her.

07:20Lacat, and lay with her.

07:23And then other times it's Khazakh to seize or to grasp

07:27or other times it's Tafas also to seize or to grasp.

07:30And that's always about, or that's in reference to sexual assault,

07:34but there's a very thin distinction between the two.

07:38- Right, right.

07:39There's also a verb, the Yashav,

07:42but it's, you know, kind of forcing a person

07:44to live with you, right?

07:46Again, we could talk about whether there's consent there

07:50if you want, but it's still just living together.

07:53It's not the same kind of loving, the framework

07:57that we have for that concept of marriage today

08:01is being laid on top of these verbs

08:03that I do not think, right?

08:05Reflect what we mean by those things, so.

08:08- Yeah, and I think you raised an interesting point as well

08:11about there's a directionality.

08:13There's a power differential here,

08:15and this goes to the fundamental conceptualization of sex

08:19in the ancient world.

08:20Sex was not a mutual activity

08:22that two consenting agents engaged in together.

08:26It was something that an agent did to an object.

08:29- Yes.

08:30- It was, there was a hierarchy of domination,

08:33and a man was at the pinnacle of that hierarchy,

08:36and so the person underneath them on that hierarchy

08:39was the sexual object on which they acted,

08:42and the will, the agency of the object was just immaterial.

08:47It did not matter.

08:49- Precisely, precisely, that's why we keep saying,

08:53you know, we keep seeing that he goes into her,

08:55and he does this thing to her, right?

08:58And all of the language.

08:59It's an interesting piece too, because that,

09:02the idea that now that it's in the biblical texts

09:06related to these relationships,

09:08is that now they are joined together,

09:10and you're, you know, she belongs to you for good, right?

09:15And we perhaps see some sort of trying to tend

09:19to this relationship in a kind way,

09:21but it's still founded on this idea, right?

09:24This basic idea that a man is taking a woman,

09:28marking her as his territory, by the act of sex, right?

09:32I remember the first time I used that language

09:35at the church that I grew up in,

09:37so I went back as a scholar 40 years, 30 years later,

09:40you know, and I'm looking at these people

09:41who taught me Sunday school,

09:42and I made this comment about marking his territory,

09:44and one of the guys just read in the face,

09:47he said, "Sound like a, like you're referring to a dog,

09:50"being on a tree."

09:51And I said, "That's exactly what I meant."

09:53That's what I want you to take from that.

09:55Yeah, yeah.

09:57And the passive, well, the active passive thing too,

09:59about sex in general, in the ancient world, right?

10:02We still see it in the time of the first century.

10:04It's not like Jesus and the folks then are dealing,

10:07thinking about it differently, necessarily.

10:09It's a really important piece of the picture to me.

10:12This, you know, the way sex is talked about,

10:14and therefore who's at fault and all those other pieces.

10:18But Dan, I think you had a different thing.

10:20You were on the just say next,

10:21so we're gonna interrupt you there.

10:24No, no, we, look, this is all about you.

10:26We don't wanna interrupt you.

10:28No, no, it's good.

10:29We didn't prepare a show, so we're counting on you

10:32for the content.

10:34You're all we got.

10:35Awesome, well, okay.

10:38It occurs to me, it's funny because I've heard people

10:41when they talk about like the Ten Commandments,

10:44and it seems like there's this huge omission of like,

10:47you know, they've got all these main things,

10:48but there's no sense of like, thou shalt not rape in that,

10:53which seems like, which seems to a modern person

10:55like there's a big omission, but was there even a concept

10:59of that in, you know,

11:04it sounds like what we're talking about here is, you know,

11:07the objective, the total object of objectification,

11:11at least of women in that time period.

11:15Yeah, yeah, I don't know

11:20if there's an actual verb, Dan, the other Dan,

11:23Mac, you probably know if there's a verb

11:25that is typically translated.

11:26I think I tried to look into once,

11:28and it's hard to follow it for rape specifically, but--

11:30So the closest I think you get is Anna,

11:33which is to violate, but that has to do with the woman's,

11:38basically viability as a commodity.

11:42Right.

11:43And because it is very transactional

11:45and the legislation that has to do with sexual assault,

11:50treats it as a property crime.

11:52It is not the agency, the autonomy of the victim.

11:57It is the fact that this basically spoils her as goods,

12:02either for her father who stands to benefit

12:06from her marriage through the bride price,

12:10or her husband who is her owner more or less.

12:13Right, right.

12:14The issue of, yes, have you spoiled the goods?

12:17Yeah.

12:18And, you know, one of the things I try to talk about

12:20when I is around this concept of virginity, right?

12:24This human construct of labeling a female body specifically

12:29as one thing at one point that has actually changed, right?

12:34That's the way it's talked about,

12:36and there are people who still talk about it that way.

12:39I think today, just to be clear,

12:41I think today people talk about it two different ways.

12:43They talk about I am a virgin as in I haven't done that yet,

12:46but then they also talk about losing one's virginity.

12:49And that's the piece that is very biblical to me, right?

12:52That's the piece that the Bible talks about this state

12:57that can be lost or changed or whatever.

13:01And that is fully human construct

13:04as an element of controlling women's bodies.

13:07I mean, there's, you know, and the more you look into this,

13:10or at least the more I think about it over the years

13:12and look into the physiology behind it, right?

13:16Like this concept that a woman needs to show proof

13:19of the evidence of her virginity on her,

13:23the night that she is taken, right?

13:24And their man sleeps with her, right?

13:26Well, what's the evidence we all know, right?

13:28Or the, we know, right?

13:29The evidence is that she bled.

13:30Like, okay, let's talk about that, right?

13:33The evidence of a woman's air quotes virginity

13:37is the fact that her hymen just wasn't prepared.

13:40That's it, right?

13:42There's no, you know, this is a violation.

13:45This is a form of small form of violence

13:48being done to a woman's body that doesn't need to happen.

13:51But that's all of these ideas around claiming territory,

13:56being the first on the scene.

13:58I did, I thought about like people that talk about

14:01how that the virgin mountainside with no ski,

14:04you know, nobody's skied on it yet.

14:06And I want to be the first to ski on it.

14:07Like, that's what we're talking about

14:09but with a woman's body.

14:10And I, in the book, I, you know,

14:13I decided to get really raw about it all

14:15just to kind of make the point, right?

14:18We're talking about a particular part of a woman's body.

14:22Whether or not a man has interacted with it, right?

14:25We're talking about her vagina.

14:27But the reason we care is both men's egos, right?

14:30In terms of, I wouldn't want to be with,

14:35gosh, it's really hard to talk about something sometimes.

14:38You know, like, oh, somebody else has had sex with her.

14:40I don't, she's tainted goods.

14:42Do you realize what you're saying when you say

14:43that she's tainted goods, by the way?

14:45You're just saying that she's been penetrated by a man's penis.

14:47Like, this is about men's penises over and over again,

14:51people clean speaking, it drives me crazy.

14:54I had this little clip when I was,

14:56I created a video series first and then I wrote the book.

14:59And I had, I had to put it in.

15:00- You've been releasing those clips.

15:02- I have, yeah, a little bit.

15:04The videos themselves are like 15 to 18 minutes long.

15:08And I've been releasing clips from them.

15:10Yeah, you know, and it's like, okay, people,

15:12can we just be honest?

15:14When you say that a woman is defiled because she's had sex,

15:18you're really talking around.

15:20I mean, it's penises defiling her.

15:22Can we just be clear about that?

15:24- Yeah.

15:25- There's nothing wrong with your penises.

15:26They look funny.

15:27They are a little bit, I'm not gonna lie.

15:30But don't demonize them.

15:33- Yeah.

15:33- Yeah.

15:34- But that's what you're doing in this weird back end thing.

15:36And it's all about territory.

15:38It's who's, you know, and it's like,

15:39come on people, let it go, let it go.

15:43Let it, let's see what's going on.

15:45And just let that go.

15:47- And it's problematic.

15:48Like that, the problematic nature of that conceptual,

15:52conception of virginity and of, you know,

15:55sort of the defilement of a woman's body persists

15:58to this day.

15:59- Precisely.

16:00- You know, in churches, you know,

16:03I know that in my neighborhood and, you know,

16:06the girls in my church were raised with this idea that,

16:10- Totally.

16:11- That, you know, nobody wants a chewed piece of gum.

16:15Nobody wants, you know, an apple

16:17that's already had bites taken out of it

16:19or whatever horrific metaphor they come up with.

16:23The boys were given none of these lectures.

16:27- That's right.

16:27- None of them.

16:29So why, I don't know, why wasn't I gum?

16:31Why don't I get to be gum?

16:33I don't understand it.

16:34It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a huge double standard

16:39that persists.

16:41- Right.

16:42- And part of that is because of how people are looking

16:45at the Bible or at least how they've been told

16:48- Precisely.

16:48to look at the Bible.

16:49(upbeat music)

16:54- I wanted to bring up with you.

16:56I found there's a website called thegospelcoallition.org.

17:01It sounds very official.

17:04- Gospel coalition is a well-known organization.

17:08- Yeah, it is.

17:09- Yeah.

17:09- Yeah.

17:10- And they have an article called A Biblical View of Marriage.

17:14And I wanted to run by you, the first, the first.

17:19- Oh, please do, let's do this.

17:20- They have a definition and then a summary of stuff.

17:23But I'm just going to read you this definition.

17:26And you tell me all the ways that they are absolutely correct.

17:29- I'm sorry, I'm not certain that it's going to be.

17:33The Biblical View of Marriage, it says here,

17:36is of a God-given voluntary sexual and public social union

17:41of one man and one woman from different families

17:48for the purpose of serving God.

17:52So.

17:52- Did they say anything about per creation in there?

17:54I didn't catch it.

17:55- It didn't, no, no, no.

17:56It didn't actually get to that.

17:58It just said the purpose was serving God and that, yeah.

18:02- Yeah.

18:03- So I mean, I figure you might have some things to say

18:08about that.

18:09(laughing)

18:11- You just dropped that so nicely, Dan.

18:16(laughing)

18:17I might have a few things to say.

18:19I do, I'm like, can we comment on the fact that they said

18:22sexual first and then public and like, wait, what?

18:25(laughing)

18:26- Yeah, the joining of those two things together,

18:28sexual, public, social.

18:30- Yes, I got quite dealt.

18:31Yeah, a little bit concerned.

18:33Yeah, well, that's actually, you know, the first four,

18:36you know, the first four chapters of this book, sorry,

18:39are about addressing basically where they get those ideas,

18:44right?

18:45When people use that definition that you just read for us, Dan,

18:48really, usually there are four passages

18:52and maybe some additional ones,

18:53but there are four passages that people

18:55are definitely turning to.

18:57And it's a total of--

18:58- Or one passage in three quotations of that passage.

19:01- Exactly, thank you, right?

19:01(laughing)

19:03So it's a total of seven biblical verses

19:05and one of them is quoted, you know, twice.

19:08So it's, you know, we could maybe delete

19:10two of those verses and say five, right?

19:12So it's, so, you know, just for your watchers listeners,

19:17Genesis 1, 28, be fruitful and multiply,

19:20fill the oath and subdue it.

19:22Genesis 2, 24, I will quote the way I think it should read,

19:26which is therefore a man to leave his father, mother

19:29and cling to his woman and the two become one plus.

19:31Matthew 19, four to six, which I always kind of end up

19:36recording that incorrectly, but it's, you know,

19:39it's the debate with the Pharisees about which reason

19:42is Jesus okay with for divorce?

19:44And he says, have you not read that it says

19:47and you know, and he quotes Genesis 1, 27 in male,

19:50female, he created them and then he quotes Genesis 2, 24,

19:53right?

19:55And then so what man has joined together, let no one separate.

19:59Noteworthy, that is nothing new from Jesus, by the way.

20:02He's engaging a debate, age old debate.

20:04So that's not even new.

20:05What he offers is new is different,

20:07which is what I get into in that chapter.

20:09And then Ephesians 5, 31 and 32, which is again,

20:12a quoting of Genesis 2, 24.

20:14And then this really stunning comment about,

20:18this is a mystery, but I'm comparing it to Christ

20:22and the church and how that laid the foundation

20:24for Sacramento language much later.

20:26But so that's it.

20:28That's what people mean.

20:29And so they usually are looking at that to say,

20:31God ordained, air quotes, marriage to be between one man

20:36and one woman and that it needs to be procreative,

20:39which is where people get hung up, right?

20:42On certain types of marriages today.

20:44And that no divorcing, divorcing is a sin, right?

20:47According to Matthew 19, four or six or whatever.

20:51- Oddly enough, I'm seeing a lot on social media

20:53about getting rid of no fault divorce.

20:56Like the Christian nationalists are really up in arms

20:59about the uppity women who get to divorce men

21:03and they want to outlaw it.

21:04And it is, I don't know where this comes from.

21:07- Not odd at all, actually.

21:09Well, no, when you pair it with all the different things

21:12that are, the other things that are happening around bodily

21:14autonomy for women, right?

21:16- No, right.

21:16- They're about to outlaw mythopressedone,

21:18which is the drug that's used for terminating

21:22an unplanned pregnancy.

21:24Like, outlawing it.

21:26Are you, I can't even process,

21:28my head will explode with anger.

21:30Like I just, so I'm not surprised.

21:32So anyway, so that's, yeah.

21:35So that's usually what people mean, right?

21:37And so they make this definition such as what you read.

21:40So, but there's certain, surely there's no counter arguments

21:44to be made from the Bible that those aren't

21:48the only way that the Bible sees marriage.

21:52- Well, there's that, right.

21:54No, there's that.

21:55There are plenty of examples.

21:56We don't have the people of Israel

21:57without two, at least two generations of polygamy, right?

22:01I mean, we have, well, that's not true.

22:03We have the main patriarch is forces himself

22:06on an enslaved woman in his home, hurt children, actually,

22:10become their enemies, I suppose,

22:12even though they're cousins, which is odd.

22:14Right.

22:15And so we don't have the tribes without multiple women, right?

22:18Involved to specifically in the primary wife woman role,

22:23and then two who are enslaved in their household.

22:26And we just look the other way at this particular example,

22:30'cause it was necessary, and that was back then.

22:32But no, let's just be honest about that, right?

22:35What if you heard about neighbors of yours

22:38who were doing this?

22:39Or what if you thought about more recent, you know,

22:42countries or something establishing themselves this way?

22:44And this is how the, you know, the head of the country

22:47did things, you know?

22:48How would you think about them?

22:50You know, would you think about that differently

22:51than you have been taught to think about Jacob

22:54doing this kind of a thing?

22:55You've been taught to excuse it, right?

22:57- It sounds very handmade as tail.

22:59- Oh, for sure.

22:59- To have a patriarch who impregnates all the women.

23:04All the women, right?

23:06- Yeah, right.

23:07- So we have that angle, right?

23:08There's no, this is, this is bollocks, right?

23:11One man, one woman, come on people, but also, you know,

23:16go ahead.

23:17- Well, I was just gonna say that the one man, one woman

23:19that's one, there's nothing prescriptive going on

23:22in Genesis 2.24 at all.

23:24It doesn't describe any kind of ceremony.

23:26It doesn't describe any change in their relationship.

23:29It's just a change in, and it's just the two of them

23:33pair bonding, and it is happening

23:38while polygamy is normative.

23:40- Totally.

23:41- And so it is, the notion that it is prescribing

23:45one man and one woman is already, that's a non-starter,

23:49that's not going on at all in this passage.

23:52- It's not, and I think actually, I enjoy talking about

23:55Genesis 128, a great deal, because, you know,

23:59Genesis 122, if we're gonna read it that way,

24:02let's just read it as what it's saying, right?

24:04Okay, well God also said, in Genesis 122,

24:08to the fish of the sea and the birds of the air

24:09to be fruitful and multiply.

24:11Like, is that a command to marry?

24:14- Well, and I think you could also interpret this

24:18not as a command, it's just a prefix form of a verb,

24:22and I think there's an interesting case to make

24:25that this is a blessing, 'cause it says,

24:27and he blessed them and said.

24:29So it's not, I'm blessing you by telling you what to do.

24:31You know, it's like you could very legitimately translate it,

24:36and he blessed them and said, may you, multiply

24:41and fill the earth, and so it doesn't have to be a command

24:45in any way, shape, or form whatsoever.

24:47- And, let's be very clear, nobody needed to be told.

24:53(laughs)

24:54- Yeah, we've seen the blue lagoon, they didn't need,

24:57they didn't need an instruction book

25:00or somebody wagging their finger.

25:01Right, nor did the birds of the air

25:04or the fish of the sea, right?

25:05Nobody needed, and so that's your, the blessing angle,

25:08I think is really lovely.

25:10But also then, again, I think as a way

25:12to try to drive things home, when we are

25:14about how selective we're being,

25:16if we're just focusing on 128, who here knows what 129 says?

25:21I happen to because I've been studying this,

25:23but you know, it's the verse that says

25:25we should all be vegan.

25:27And so, you know, you wanna make an argument for,

25:30this is for all time, but that isn't, well, you know,

25:33in chapter six, God makes it okay to eat for whatever.

25:37- And I'm like, well then,

25:38let's talk about other biblical references

25:40that challenge the idea of being, of being pro-creative,

25:44which comes straight from Jesus' mouth, by the way.

25:47So we do have biblical challenges to this be fruitful command,

25:52and it's Jesus' like, why are we not taking

25:55that more seriously?

25:57- Well, and I think that's a great point.

25:59The text is not univocal.

26:01I mean, just between Genesis 128 and 224,

26:03you've got two entirely distinct creation accounts.

26:06- Right, right.

26:07- And so, when we impose that presupposition

26:09of univocality, we've got to hire archives, the passages.

26:14And so, you would think that Jesus' would take precedence,

26:18'cause everything else, anytime Jesus says anything

26:20that's different from the Hebrew Bible,

26:23you listen to Jesus, you don't listen to the Hebrew Bible.

26:26Except here, it's like, well,

26:28we kinda want it to be the other way.

26:30So we're gonna say, know that.

26:32And where Jesus says, hey, lop it off.

26:36If the real ones are doing it, we gotta say, well,

26:41I think he was exaggerating there.

26:45So we're gonna ignore him there.

26:47- Yeah, exactly, exactly.

26:49Yeah, and you can do this with,

26:50and the same with Genesis 224,

26:52and those two are the foundation

26:55for this general biblical marriage idea.

26:58And so I think it's helpful to reframe those two.

27:01The second one, of course, is quoted

27:04in the other two as well.

27:05But Genesis 224, I wanna reiterate what you were saying, Dan.

27:10But also, I think it's helpful to look at

27:14what does that chapter, that particular creation story

27:17trying to do, trying to talk about?

27:20I think it is more about a human desires

27:23for relationships and--

27:25- And 224, sorry, we're not actually laying these out

27:30for the people who aren't following in their Bible at home.

27:32So 224, therefore a man leaves his father and mother

27:35and clings to his wife and maybe from one flesh.

27:38- His woman, thank you.

27:39No, no, that's a good correction,

27:40because the dumb NRSV doesn't know what it's talking about.

27:45- And something that I taught a class

27:47on biblical creation accounts a little bit ago.

27:50And one of the things I raised is that

27:51there's some parallels between what's going on

27:53in Genesis 2 and Gilgamesh.

27:55And for instance, in Gilgamesh, he's got this friend

28:00who is just a wild man.

28:02He's kind of the not civilized, Enkidu.

28:07And what does it take?

28:08It takes a sex worker to, he has to have sex.

28:13And then he kind of matures.

28:15He's like, okay, I'll straighten my tie, I'm a man now.

28:18And she is like, okay, now put on some clothes.

28:21Okay, now you're getting there.

28:24- You can do it, you can do it.

28:26- And so there's a sense in which the maturation

28:31of humanity in Genesis 2 and 3 is following

28:33a similar pattern because they eat

28:38and they have their eyes open, but then it is the pair bonding

28:42that allows them to kind of take the next step

28:45and further mature.

28:47And so the story is really an etiology for maturation

28:51for leaving the home of your father

28:53and for starting an independent pair bonded household.

28:57And so it's not, it's not saying, look,

28:59this is how marriage was created.

29:00It's saying, look, this is how humanity matures

29:03and you become an adult and you go out

29:05and you pair bond and you start your own household

29:08and you leave your parents alone.

29:10- I feel like this is Dan talking to his children, right?

29:13I feel like Dan is like, I hear that Gen Z,

29:17they're not leaving their households and stuff.

29:19My kids better get out of here.

29:21- Right, I actually had students that in my classroom

29:24in my first teaching position, they were in their 60s

29:27'cause of the nature of the college.

29:29And I had one woman to say, this could be about getting,

29:33kicking the kids out of the nest

29:35or it could also be about comforting mothers

29:37or fit parents at the sadness of losing that.

29:41So all the things, I think all, yeah,

29:43I think all the things are potentially in the mix,

29:45but I did like when she said, yeah,

29:47we're just taking him out of the nest, yes.

29:49(laughing)

29:50It's like, yes, it's your turn.

29:54But yeah, that's a whole different way of looking at it

29:56than to say, God is ordaining this.

29:59God is, or the scriptures say that this is only this,

30:03you know, it's just a different way of looking at it.

30:05And I think for a lot of people,

30:08the first few steps of this whole conversation need to be,

30:11what is it you think the Bible is and is not?

30:14And you need to work through that pretty well

30:18in order to be able to see or even entertain the idea

30:21that this is not some sort of prescription.

30:25It's not some sort of declaration from God.

30:27This is, these are stories that are coming out of necessity

30:30and needs and desires and, you know, all the things.

30:34And that's a very human creation.

30:37And that can be very threatening for a lot of people

30:39to say that it's human created.

30:42But it's true.

30:43So how do we get you there, right?

30:45(laughing)

30:46And that brings up, you've mentioned Matthew 19 a number

30:50of times and we've talked about Jesus is citing Genesis 1

30:54and 2 in this question about divorce.

30:57But then Jesus makes this statement.

31:00And I wonder if it might not be an opportunity

31:02to pivot a little bit into the idea that we see

31:04in the New Testament that I think comes into Greco-Roman

31:08period Judaism and early Christianity

31:10from a Greek philosophical worldview.

31:13That's sexual desire is a product of the base flesh

31:18and is something that is to be avoided.

31:21Because what is this kind of higher law

31:24that Jesus points out in Matthew 19

31:27where that kind of throws the disciples for a loop there?

31:29You talk a bit about this as well in the book.

31:32- Yeah, yeah.

31:33Well,

31:34his, that one piece that you're referring to

31:38is when he says in verse nine,

31:40which is not a part of what people tend to quote, right?

31:42- And I say to you, whoever divorces his woman,

31:46except for in chastity and marries another commits adultery.

31:49And that's why that's kind of driving the nail

31:56in the coffin on why divorce is a sin.

31:59But that to me, and to be honest Dan,

32:02I hadn't taken the passion,

32:05like the element that you just mentioned

32:07in terms of the Greco-Roman pieces of all of this.

32:10I'm looking at it just through the lens

32:12of let's take seriously what he's saying here, right?

32:16When you to divorce your partner and marry another,

32:20you're gonna commit adultery.

32:22It is so clear if you can just sit with it, right?

32:25Just see it that we're talking about sex.

32:28This is only about sex.

32:30This isn't about divorce as a problem

32:32'cause it's hard.

32:34It hurts family.

32:35It pulls people apart.

32:37Like it's hard for resource wise.

32:39It's hard on the children.

32:40It's hard, like it's difficult.

32:42It's not ideal.

32:44That's not the issue.

32:46The issue is this man has claimed this woman

32:49and now you're gonna go cheat on it.

32:51Like that's it.

32:53And so to see that Jesus is affirming that

32:58can be really hard for some people.

33:00It was actually a little startling for me

33:04to wrap my head around the fact that yeah, yeah, you know what?

33:08There are times when Jesus says stuff

33:10that just not okay with me.

33:12And that, you know, like I don't know.

33:14- Most of them in Matthew, probably.

33:18- Yes, actually.

33:19There's that.

33:20- 'Cause Matthew's a bit of a Judaizer

33:21who's kind of escalating things.

33:25It's like, no, no, your righteousness must exceed

33:27the righteousness of the Pharisees.

33:28- Isn't it enough?

33:29Yeah, yeah.

33:30And also like the references to enslaved people

33:33to make a point about the, you know,

33:35all the things about the kingdom and the coming kingdom.

33:37But so let's sit with this.

33:40Jesus is well-trained by his own scriptures.

33:43And he's focusing on what we call marriage.

33:46He's focusing on that relationship

33:47through the angle or the lens of just the sex act.

33:51And then we're nailing it down, putting it in Canada

33:55and we're teaching people about that.

33:57And we're not reflecting on what's actually, you know,

34:00we're not reflecting on what's being said

34:02and the part of that that I think is really harmful, right?

34:05And the part of that, you know, purity culture picked up

34:07on very well in the last 30 years.

34:09And all the shame around ending a monogamous relationship.

34:14It's like, are you kidding me?

34:17You know, but then he goes on.

34:19And this is what was truly, I mean, rocked my world.

34:23I think when I stumbled across this article,

34:26talking about the next two, three verses when he says,

34:31"So his disciple, continuing in Matthew 19, starting in verse 10,

34:36"his disciple said to him,

34:37"'If such is the case of a man with his woman,

34:40"'it is better not to marry.'

34:41"As in, if we can't divorce if we want to,

34:46"then maybe we shouldn't marry to begin with.

34:48"And Jesus doesn't talk him off that ledge."

34:51I think that's hilarious, honestly.

34:53You know, like, can we put that in writing?

34:56His disciples say, "Maybe it's better not to marry

35:00"to begin with."

35:01And he comes right over the top.

35:03And he agrees with it, and then he adds another layer.

35:06Like, and he says, "Not everyone can accept this teaching,

35:09"but only those to whom it is given."

35:11Again, that kind of comment you made, Dan,

35:13about it being like, you know, for the special ones.

35:15"But there are eunuchs who have been so from birth,

35:18"and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others.

35:21"And there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs

35:24"for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.

35:26"Let anyone accept this who can."

35:30I remember suggesting to, you know,

35:34promise keepers conventions having a Matthew 19 tent

35:38for castration.

35:39Like-- - Yeah, yeah.

35:41- Whoa, you don't need to-- - Just you don't say a way.

35:43- You don't have to put a ring on a necklace.

35:45Just go, yeah.

35:48- And doesn't this just slightly make the whole thing

35:51about Genesis 128 a little bit challenging?

35:54Like, percreate or cut them off?

35:57Like, which one is it?

35:58This is from Jesus.

35:59- Well, and you see this in Paul's sexuality as well.

36:02Paul is very much, in my opinion, he's suggesting one

36:07that's passion is for the dirty, dirty Gentiles.

36:10- Yes.

36:11- Because sex is supposed to be holy and with honor,

36:16not with the passion of desire.

36:19- So you need to be playing,

36:20no, none of this Luther Vandros in the bedroom.

36:23- That's right, that's right.

36:24- The Mormon tabernacle choir, and that's what it's said.

36:27(laughing)

36:28- And, but Paul, a lot of people have tried to find

36:33a concern for procreation and Paul,

36:35Paul could not care less about procreation

36:35and it's not there.

36:37because like the author of Matthew,

36:39Paul's expecting everything to end.

36:41- To end quick, yeah.

36:42- Which is why Matthew has, you know,

36:46woe to the ones who are with child.

36:48- Right.

36:49- And so don't get pregnant.

36:50And Paul says this is my rule and all my congregations.

36:54You stay in whatever conditions you were

36:55when God called you.

36:57And so sex is obviously not for procreation here.

37:02And so what is it for?

37:03I think Paul says, if you can't hack celibacy,

37:07go ahead and get married.

37:08And the sex should be prophylactic.

37:10It should be, you know, good for keeping down the urges.

37:13- Exactly, put a lid on it.

37:15Not where you get to indulge it.

37:18And then Matthew, or the author of Matthew has Jesus

37:21basically endorsing the same idea.

37:24Hey man, if you really wanna be pious,

37:28this is the way to go.

37:29And in the book you talk about how scholars

37:31have long interpreted this as,

37:34it's like, well, it doesn't really make much sense

37:36if they're talking about actual willful castration.

37:39It seems like it's just a vow to sell a bit life

37:43or something like that.

37:43But we have examples of early Christians

37:46who castrated themselves.

37:47It's absolutely taken seriously by people

37:50for the first three centuries.

37:52The very first, this was news to me.

37:55You know, all these things are so fun to discover

37:57when you're not trying to prove anything,

37:59but you just sort of looking into it and you're like,

38:00"Oh my gosh."

38:01That the very first decree at the Nicene Council,

38:06so the very first Ecumenical Council, right?

38:09We all know about the creed that came out of it,

38:10but I didn't know.

38:11I don't think I read this in 7.1.

38:14- Yes, the very first point was,

38:16if you have castrated yourself,

38:18you cannot be a leader in the church.

38:20This is the year 325 people, right?

38:23Like this is not, this is, it was so out of hand.

38:27That's kind of funny, little pun.

38:29That they had to make a comment about,

38:32like they had to make a declaration about it.

38:34People were taking it seriously.

38:36And the other thing is, this isn't celibacy, right?

38:40Just because a man doesn't have testes

38:42doesn't mean he is not sexually active.

38:44- Right. - Newsflash, right?

38:46What that also tells us though,

38:48is that people tend to think,

38:51I hope you're okay with me just being this blatant about things.

38:55- Lay it out there.

38:56- We'll worry about the advertisers later.

38:58- Okay. (laughing)

39:01- They don't listen to this show.

39:02- But also you're a comfort or discomfort here,

39:05but when people say that,

39:08because he doesn't have testes, he's not having sex,

39:10that tells us you were thinking of sex as one act, right?

39:14Penetrating a vagina or an orifice.

39:16But, and so that makes me really sad

39:19for all these people who have really dull sex life.

39:21(laughing)

39:23Do you know, it's more than that.

39:25And also sometimes men without testes

39:27can still get an interaction.

39:29All of the different things.

39:31And then what this article I read by Hester reminded me of,

39:36which was that in the first century,

39:41that UNIX had reputations, right?

39:45Earned or not, they had reputations

39:47for being sexually active with both men and women.

39:50And women over the centuries,

39:53very much valued having sex with UNIX

39:55because of the automatic birth control.

39:59So the, and then you also look at the way UNIX

40:03are talked about in the writings again.

40:06Their language is quite rude and denigrating, right?

40:09But this monstrous, you know, third version of humanity, right?

40:14They're not fully male, they're not female,

40:19there's some of both, this is a third,

40:23it's not ever clearly said a third gender,

40:25but we're talking about human bodies

40:28that look like both or neither.

40:31And we're talking about humans who are believed

40:34to be sexually active with men and women.

40:36Like even if that isn't what Jesus is getting at, right?

40:40Even if that wasn't on the mind of the writer

40:42of the Gospel of Matthew, Yada, Yada, Yada,

40:44that is also being put out there on the table

40:47for us to consider because he is affirming these people

40:52who were ostracized, who were, you know,

40:55like there's this piece to it all that is stunning to me

41:00that people do not take seriously.

41:04I remember having it, go ahead, Dan.

41:06No, no, I was just gonna say,

41:08and everybody is negotiating with these texts.

41:11And so people are bringing their ideologies to the text

41:14and no doubts folks who were in that segment of society

41:19would have used this as a proof text for affirming

41:24their ideas about sexuality and these things and sex.

41:28And so, and I'm not aware of any indication

41:32that a bunch of Christians went around going,

41:34how dare you, these people over there are misusing Matthew 19.

41:39And you mentioned Hester, I just, for the listeners,

41:41I just wanna mention that's David Hester,

41:44Journal for the Study of the New Testament,

41:45UNIX and the Post-Gender Jesus, Matthew 1912

41:48and Transgressive Sexualities is the paper

41:51that you referenced there.

41:53- I think I actually make that article available

41:55on my website.

41:56- Oh, okay.

41:57- Yeah.

41:59- I'm not sure if I should, but I have so.

42:00- Well, it's out there now.

42:02- It's linked there 'cause it's, oh good.

42:05And he references really important other scholarship

42:08about sexualities and UNIX in the first century.

42:10And it's great stuff in terms of other religious traditions

42:14and their use of an appreciation of castrated men and so.

42:18- You might wanna, I was gonna ask you

42:20at the end of the interview,

42:21but tell everybody what your website is right now.

42:23- Sure.

42:24- So that they can go and look for it.

42:25- Thank you.

42:26Yeah, it's my full name.

42:27So it's Jennifer with two ends,

42:29grace g-r-a-c-e-b-i-r-d.com.

42:33- Okay.

42:33Good.

42:34- Thank you.

42:35- That's a good place for people to go apparently

42:36and get links to some awesome.

42:40- Some scholarship that is really important

42:43when I reference it in a,

42:44like when I reference it in my live streams

42:46or something like that,

42:47things that have been shared publicly,

42:49I'll make available there kind of thing.

42:51- And this is something I'm enjoying seeing

42:53is that there are scholars who are beginning to use

42:56online spaces to supplement their publications.

42:59So saying, you know, they're more footnotes

43:02or you can go access resources

43:04and things like that on the website.

43:06So I think that's wonderful to see.

43:09- Thanks.

43:10(upbeat music)

43:12- A question I get an awful lot is,

43:17we have Paul talking an awful lot about Purnia.

43:19And a lot of people wanna know,

43:23what all does this entail?

43:25Does this include premarital sex?

43:27Are you able to just kind of talk about kind of,

43:32when they're using this word,

43:33what does this seem to refer to?

43:36Are they drawing lines around it?

43:38Or is this generally in reference to things like sex work

43:41or to adultery or things like that?

43:44- Yeah, the scholars, excuse me,

43:48scholars are pretty, are very much not

43:52of a single mind on this.

43:54What is it that you find detestable, right?

43:58It might be different from what someone else finds

44:01inappropriate.

44:02I have not yet seen someone who has been able to say,

44:07Purnia is this and with any kind of definitive,

44:11respectable kind of a way.

44:13So, okay, so right, do they mean sex work?

44:17Do they mean sex outside of marriage?

44:19- For those of us who don't have any ancient Greek,

44:22can we just say, how has this word been translated

44:26in the various translations?

44:28Like, what are we most likely to see

44:31in our English translations

44:32when this word comes up?

44:35- Sexual immorality?

44:37- Fornication.

44:38- Fornication, fornication, that's the big one.

44:41- I think that's the most common one.

44:43- It is, yeah, and so what do we mean by that, right?

44:46Is it having sex in your car in public?

44:49Is it, right, I mean, I'm being serious though,

44:52like in a playful way, right?

44:54- Well, yeah, even for many people,

44:56this could mean oral sex or anal sex or curl sex.

45:01It could mean anything that is not

45:03what your social identity determines

45:06to be a full piece. - Sex that I don't like

45:08or sex that I find dirty.

45:11- Be sure that is exactly right.

45:12And when you see someone like Paul saying it,

45:15that just raises some fun questions

45:16because-- - He didn't like any kind of sex.

45:19- Exactly, and he claims to not be having any.

45:22So why are we taking any advice on sex from him?

45:25Like, why?

45:26(laughs)

45:27- Yeah, yeah.

45:28- And sure, he's probably drawing from his

45:30he provided all, you know, concepts and ideas

45:33and sure what he's being exposed to

45:35as he travels around, you know, the Roman Empire.

45:38I certainly he's gonna be having

45:40go figure knee-jerk reactions, right,

45:42to some practices that he finds detestable.

45:46- But this is a guy who needed to relax a little bit.

45:48- Yeah.

45:49- He needed to get some--

45:50- We're taking sex advice from a guy

45:52who clearly gets the "ix" from all sex.

45:54- Exactly, at least it seems that way.

45:57- Yeah, and this raises a concern.

46:00A lot of people tend not to think about this

46:03when they're coming up with their rhetoric

46:04for defending their identity politics

46:06using the Bible as a proof text,

46:08but our understanding of morality

46:11is governed in large part by our own experiences.

46:13And a man who claims to be celibate,

46:16whether that's because he is asexual

46:19or because he is a widower who has sworn it off

46:24or for whatever reason.

46:27This is a man who is not having the experiences

46:29that most other people are having

46:31and yet presumes to dictate to them

46:34what is right and wrong based on his own perception

46:36of those things.

46:38And so I've got a number of videos on my channel

46:41that are basically saying explicitly,

46:44Paul's sexuality has absolutely no relevance.

46:47His sexual ethic has absolutely no relevance to us today

46:51because it's built on a lot of these very outdated

46:53conceptualizations of sex as a base urge,

46:58a product of the flesh, which is evil

47:01as opposed to the spirit, which is good.

47:04And in many ways is just rationalizing

47:09Greco-Roman Jewish conceptualizations of morality,

47:13which in many ways are phenomenally outdated

47:18and even harmful.

47:19- Right, exactly, exactly.

47:21You know, and the question of sex before marriage

47:25as a sin also comes up a lot

47:27and the two verses that people tend to turn to

47:32to justify that belief that it is a sin

47:35is Genesis 2, 24 because the translation will say,

47:40therefore man leaves his father and mother and clings

47:42to his, oh, we're gonna go ahead and get them married now

47:44because we know they're gonna have sex next, right?

47:46But that's not what the Hebrew is actually doing, right?

47:49And it's just coming together.

47:52And then the Paul in 1 Corinthians 7,

47:55which I could turn to if you'd like me to just to read it,

47:59but I think many people are familiar with the concept

48:03of what he's saying, I've talked to so many people

48:06in the last few months who have been,

48:08who were just deeply shamed by these ideas, right?

48:13In 1 Corinthians 7, now concerning the matters

48:17about what you wrote, it's well for man not to touch a woman.

48:20I mean, this is what you're talking about, Dan, right?

48:23People are starting to say, you're not starting,

48:26but in this community, they're talking about,

48:29maybe it's better for my husband and I not to have sex.

48:32We're holier, we're having,

48:36we are containing ourselves better,

48:38we are mastering our own passions

48:39in ways that we didn't before.

48:41And this is a good thing, right?

48:42And so somebody wants to know if that's true.

48:45And so Paul's response is to address all the possible

48:49iterations of how that might play out

48:51or what it might look like, but you get this,

48:54but because of cases of sexual immorality,

48:56again, be sure back to your question and your point, right?

48:59What exactly does Paul mean by that?

49:02Each man should have his own woman

49:05and each woman, her own man.

49:07The man should give to his woman her conjugal rights

49:10and likewise the woman to her man.

49:12And that's all husband and wife in my English.

49:14But, and then, you know, that's used in very controlling ways.

49:19You belong to me, you know,

49:20for the wife does not have authority over her own body,

49:23but the, sorry, the woman, but the man does.

49:26Likewise, the man does not have authority over his own body,

49:28but the woman does, this is awful, right?

49:30If he, I do think he meant something,

49:33they meant something mutually loving and supportive,

49:35but it has been used for sure over the centuries

49:38to your mind, you belong to me woman.

49:41- Yeah, you owe me sex whenever I want it.

49:43- Totally, whenever I want it, exactly.

49:45And I've talked to people who felt,

49:47who've been just, you know,

49:49terribly beaten down by that that they were supposed to.

49:52And I've seen it all the time online right now.

49:55It's kind of frightening.

49:56But the part that we're also talking about here

49:59is to the unmarried and to the widows.

50:01I say it's well for them to remain unmarried as I am.

50:04But if they are not practicing self-control,

50:07they should marry.

50:08For it is better to marry than to be a flame with passion.

50:11So that's the idea that people take to say,

50:14see sex before marriage is a sin.

50:16I do think Paul is saying you should only be having sex

50:19in marriage, but he's also coming from this perspective

50:22of the way he's talking about bodies, passions, desires.

50:27And also the whole concept of around, you know,

50:32marriages specifically being defined by sex, right?

50:36So that we're not talking about all the other parts

50:39of our relationship when we're talking about marriage.

50:41If you've gotten, you know,

50:43those are the two passages that people turn to to say,

50:45see the Bible says that,

50:47but people are dramatically overlooking

50:51a really important two chapters in Leviticus

50:54that lay out all of these different, you know,

50:57relationships that a man cannot go have sex with,

51:00a woman that can't have sex with.

51:02People tend to focus on Leviticus 1822 and Leviticus 2013,

51:07'cause those are the ones that say,

51:09do not lie with a man as you lie with a woman,

51:11it's an abomination, you know,

51:12one of them says to put you to death.

51:14But the rest of those chapters,

51:15or at least 15 verses in those chapters,

51:18are telling hetero men which women they can't go have sex with,

51:22not talking about marriage,

51:23we're talking about the fact that men are having sex

51:25with people that don't belong to them,

51:27and so we're just gonna put some boundaries on it.

51:29Like, can we be clear about this, please?

51:33- Well, and I think this raises an interesting point

51:35about marriage in the Hebrew Bible

51:37that a lot of people don't recognize.

51:38Adultery did not mean that a man could not go have sex

51:41with an unmarried woman,

51:42even if he was already married.

51:44He could do that as much as he pleased.

51:47- Exactly.

51:48- He could not, but he could not do it with someone

51:51who was his father's wife or his sister.

51:56There are a bunch of boundaries that are set,

51:58but adultery meant you couldn't have sex

52:01with another man's wife.

52:03It did not mean you could not go have sex

52:05with a woman who was unmarried, yeah.

52:08- Exactly.

52:10- And in fact, there's a tradition that goes back

52:13to the Hebrew Bible that the act of sex

52:16is the act of claiming someone as a wife.

52:21And so which means a man could not engage inappropriately

52:26and premarital sex because the moment of sex

52:29is the moment of marriage.

52:30And so depending on, within that tradition,

52:33that's true.

52:34- Except for when he doesn't want it to be true.

52:36I mean, that's right.

52:37I mean, that's just it.

52:38That is what he did.

52:40- He does that and then he hates her is what the text says.

52:43- Right, or just, you know, he's doing it

52:45and he just doesn't, it doesn't count.

52:47Or it's just the concubine or it's just the whatever.

52:49And there are all these exceptions to that rule,

52:51but yes, that is how you know that she belongs to this man

52:54as he has had sex with her.

52:55Yeah, it's almost as if you can't have sex before marriage.

52:59- Yeah.

53:00- Only in the instances when it matters to us.

53:02- Right, and for a woman, obviously.

53:05For a woman, the rules are entirely different.

53:07- Totally.

53:08- And so there's a huge power asymmetry

53:13going on regarding sex.

53:15And I think in my own research, it seems to me

53:18that it's within Greco-Roman Judaism

53:21that you begin to develop a little bit of parody,

53:24where thanks to Greek philosophy, it's like,

53:26"Okay, these should probably be more or less

53:29the same rules for both sides."

53:31- Well, yeah.

53:33Sorry, I just, one of the things that kind of,

53:36I've been processing this whole time

53:37ever since you talked about First Corinthians, Jennifer,

53:41is it blew my mind 'cause I've never caught it before.

53:45All I've ever heard about is the husband has,

53:48the man has like, what is it?

53:51Authority over the wife's body.

53:54I didn't ever catch it.

53:55It also says the opposite.

53:57It also says the wife has authority over the man's body.

54:01You don't hear that one talked about much, do you?

54:05- No, you don't.

54:05It's the one moment of equality in a marriage

54:08that's talked about in the Bible.

54:09That's it, right there, that verse.

54:11- I think I have heard it when,

54:14usually by men, where they're asserting,

54:17hey, you need to give it to me whenever I want it.

54:21And if there's objection, they're like,

54:23"Hey, the text says you can do the same."

54:26So, this is, this is reciprocal.

54:30There's nothing wrong with this.

54:31I'm not, this is not any kind of unrighteous dominion

54:34or anything I'm exercising here.

54:36- It does seem like there's a loophole

54:39where if the woman wants to say,

54:41"I don't wanna have sex with you,"

54:43she can take dominion over his body

54:45and just say, "No, turn that body around

54:47"and make it go away from it."

54:48- That's right, that's right.

54:50- It seems like at some point we're back to autonomy

54:55if you take it all the way to its natural conclusion.

54:58But just that, as you pointed out, Jennifer,

55:00just that section of First Corinthians

55:02and the rest of it is just the man gets

55:05to basically own the woman.

55:07- He wants, yeah.

55:08And in First Thessalonians chapter four,

55:11we also have some discussion about sex

55:13and that's where we find this interesting passage.

55:16It's been translated a lot of different ways.

55:19The NRSV says that for this is the will of God,

55:24your sanctification that you've seen from sexual immorality,

55:27that each one of you know how to control your own body

55:31in holiness and honor.

55:33And this is actually talking to men.

55:35Each one of you possesses your own vessel

55:40with holiness and honor where the vessel here,

55:44I think there are a number of scholars who have argued,

55:47this is a reference to a sexual vessel

55:50that you possess your woman who has been framed here

55:55as a sexual vessel.

55:57So Paul plenty of times asserts that power imbalance

56:02that this is still about a man dominating,

56:06possessing, taking a woman.

56:09So the passage in First Corinthians

56:11is not to suggest that Paul is an ally

56:16or asserts total equality.

56:19Like Galatians three says there's neither man nor woman,

56:22but then you go over to other parts of Paul.

56:25- Yeah, it's very clear.

56:27- Yeah.

56:27- It's almost like this book

56:29doesn't always agree with itself.

56:30That's-- - Almost.

56:32Yeah, almost as if it's definitely that.

56:34- Yeah.

56:35(laughing)

56:37- I wanted to bring up toward the end of the book,

56:41you talk a bit about Augustine

56:43and how Augustine thinks of sex as,

56:47well, there's a lot of evil associated with sex.

56:51And Augustine is one of, if not the most influential Christian

56:55of the early centuries of Christianity.

56:58Could you briefly talk about the influence

57:01that Augustine has had on how Christians think about sex?

57:03- Sure, I'd be happy to.

57:05I have to say that I truly did not want to do this.

57:08I did not, as I was working on the first four chapters,

57:12I was like, I don't want to talk about Augustine.

57:13I don't like Augustine.

57:14I don't want to go there because I'd have to do,

57:16I have to be careful and have to be a good scholar.

57:18And I don't want to do that with his work.

57:20And I just don't want to do it.

57:22And so finally, I got to chapter four on Ephesians five,

57:2631 to 32, and I was like, I can't ignore him any longer.

57:29So one of his treatises, one of his writings

57:32is called the good of marriage and the good being a noun,

57:37not an adjective, right?

57:39The good things that come from marriage.

57:43And so he is needing to challenge or counter

57:48some people who are saying,

57:51who are taking this whole celibacy thing,

57:54even celibacy within a marriage,

57:56they're taking it way seriously.

57:59And they're denigrating people who are having sex.

58:02They're in marriage even.

58:03They're saying, you're not as holy, you're not as good.

58:06And so there are two different groups of people in general

58:09that he's responding to specifically.

58:11But the fact that he has to,

58:13the fact that what he's doing is trying to explain

58:17to people that marriage is actually okay

58:20is actually in itself pretty stunning, I think, right?

58:24And so what is it that he says

58:26that justifies being married, right?

58:30The reasons that it is okay to marry

58:32or some of the goods of marriage.

58:35And so I'm just gonna read his four reasons

58:39that marriage can be considered a good,

58:42or we would say a good thing,

58:44but the goods of marriage are, therefore of them,

58:48it is a good because of the procreation of children.

58:52It is a good because of the natural companionship

58:57between the two sexes, and he does mean asexually.

59:00He means that you two are good companions

59:02'cause once you see, think of yourselves,

59:05oh, it's just, there's a lot, there's a lot.

59:08Okay, he does mean that.

59:09It's good for the companionship.

59:11Number three is it is a good because it allows the couple

59:15to turn their evil lust toward the honorable task

59:20of beginning children.

59:22And then, right?

59:24- It's nice when you can use evil things

59:26for that honorable purpose.

59:28- Isn't it, though?

59:29Yeah.

59:30And then the fourth is the combination of the first three

59:33leads to the tempering of the concupiscence of the flesh,

59:37which is to say, enjoying sexual passion and/or pleasure.

59:41So you need to temper that.

59:44You're not supposed to enjoy sexual passions or pleasures.

59:48And I'm quoting him here for a kind of dignity prevails

59:51when, as husband and wife, they unite

59:55in the marriage act.

59:57They think of themselves as mother and father.

60:00Like, really take the romance out of this one.

60:02You know, it's not you, baby.

60:04It's you're the mother of my children

60:07that I'm going to, you know, whatever.

60:09So that's his, he's trying to prove to others

60:14that these are good things.

60:15Like, this is okay.

60:17This is what can make marriage okay.

60:19So no wonder the church has this, like, just,

60:23procreation can only be in marriage.

60:25'Cause this is right.

60:26This is how it's all being justified and explained.

60:30And in that section, I called it a postscript,

60:34but I tried to help people who've never read Augustine

60:37see some of his ideas that undergird these foregoods all.

60:42I mean, it was, you know, and I also outline

60:46the kinds of critical lenses,

60:49the kinds of things I was looking for

60:51as I read through this treatise, the good of marriage,

60:54just to see that the number of ways that he is presuming,

60:59he is assuming, he is pronouncing, right?

61:03All of these basic ideas that he's developed

61:07and that he's gotten from Paul,

61:08that he's gotten from scriptures,

61:10just so people can see how pervasive these,

61:13what I think are misinformed engagements with scripture,

61:18are he is asserting as true, right?

61:21And then is building on them.

61:22And it includes his understanding of original sin,

61:25but it's more than that.

61:26And it's, anyway, so I truly felt like I needed a shower

61:31every time I engaged his work.

61:35It was really quite difficult.

61:36I felt abused by it, like mentally abused emotionally

61:40by what he's writing, 'cause of how many times and ways

61:43he would say something that was just,

61:45you need therapy, dude, that's what kept going through my mind.

61:50And yet that's where we get these ideas

61:53that are so deeply entrenched for people around sex

61:56is only for marriage, procreate,

61:58children should only happen in marriage, right?

62:01That's, it comes from him and it's awful.

62:04- Interesting. - Yeah.

62:06- Well, we could go on about this for decades.

62:10It is a ripe field for us to plow in.

62:16- That was a tricky metaphor.

62:18- That was a tricky metaphor.

62:19- That was a tricky metaphor.

62:20- You're not that man thought of anyway.

62:24- Yeah, exactly.

62:25But Jennifer Bird, hopefully we'll have you on again.

62:29Thank you so much for joining us.

62:31We do have a limited time, so I'm afraid we're going to--

62:35- Yes, understood.

62:36- Yeah. - But you are going to join us

62:38for the patrons-only conversation as well

62:42that people can come and check out.

62:44But for now, where can people go to find your work,

62:47to find you, give them your website again

62:51and all the other places?

62:53- Yeah, thank you, thank you, Dan.

62:55The easiest way is to go to my website

62:56'cause you can get to all the socials from there.

62:59So, jennifergracebird.com and it's Jennifer with two N's,

63:03G-R-A-C-E-B-I-R-D.

63:05And yeah, I have, I do a live stream once a week.

63:08I do, you know, little videos, not quite the same,

63:11and not quite the same caliber as Dan, McClellan,

63:14but we're getting there, I'm getting there.

63:16- And the book is called, give us the title again.

63:19- Yes, Marriage and the Bible, what do the texts say?

63:24- Excellent.

63:25Well, thank you so much for joining us.

63:27It's been a pleasure.

63:28Friends at home, if you would like to be able to hear

63:31our extra content with Jennifer,

63:33you can go to patreon.com/dataoverdogma

63:36and join up as a patron, that also helps

63:40make the whole show happen.

63:41Or you can reach us if you want to reach out to us

63:44at contact@dataoverdogmapod.com.

63:49And other than that, we'll see you again next week.

63:52- Bye everybody.

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