Ep 41: Modest is Hottest?

00:00I mean, in fairness to ham, there were like seven people left in the whole world.

00:07So like, you know, there's not, there's not many people that can satisfy whatever sexy

00:11feelings you're having, but still your dad or your mom is probably the wrong choice.

00:18Hey, everybody, I'm Dan McClellan, and I'm Dan Beecher, and you're listening to the

00:25Data Over Dogma podcast, where we increase public access to the academic study of the

00:30Bible and religion and combat the spread of misinformation about the same.

00:36How are things, Dan?

00:38Things are good.

00:39It's finally actually like kind of looking like winter here in Salt Lake City.

00:43There was a little bit of snow this morning and it's coldish.

00:46Yeah.

00:47Well, warming's failing us again.

00:51My dogs are, they don't like the snow.

00:54Oh, really?

00:55Yeah.

00:56Well, the older one is kind of like, don't make me go outside in there, and then the puppy

01:02is just like, no, no, no, no.

01:05But is, you know, kind of confused about what's going on.

01:09The first dog I ever had, the first day that it saw that he saw snow, he bolted like I've

01:17never seen him bolt ran out the door and down the street, like into neighbor's yards.

01:22I've never, he had never done this before.

01:24He was just so excited about snow.

01:26And from then on, like, if we were shoveling, he wanted to be out there and he wanted us

01:31to shovel the snow on to him.

01:33Like he just, anything involving snow, he wanted us to throw it at him.

01:37He wanted, he just always wanted to be loved the snow.

01:41He was a snowman, huh?

01:42He was.

01:43He was indeed.

01:44Well, hey, there's a whole show that we're going to be doing.

01:48We're going to, we're going to do a chapter and verse to start us off.

01:53And then we're going to do a, we're going to dive into a new segment that we're calling

01:58your patriarchy and you.

02:00So that'll be a lot of fun.

02:02Sounds amazing.

02:04And we're going to, we're going to have a great time with it.

02:08So let's, let's launch into chapter and verse.

02:13All right.

02:15And our chapter and verse today comes courtesy of the book of Genesis.

02:20We're in chapter nine and we're talking about verses 18 through 27.

02:24I hear there are a lot of answers in Genesis.

02:26I get that it has all of the answers that we need.

02:31There can be.

02:34This is an interesting story though that I think catches a lot of people off guard.

02:38If they're reading through Genesis and they get through the primeval history, they're like,

02:41what the hell was that?

02:42Yeah.

02:43I will say the first time I encountered this story, you know, this is about Noah.

02:50I thought I knew the Noah story.

02:52I got through the whole floody thing and then I got to this and it's only a few verses.

02:59It's not long.

03:00You could miss it if you're, if you were drowsy.

03:03But I wasn't drowsy and I went, well, like I literally, I, and I reread it and I thought

03:11maybe I had read it wrong and I was utterly baffled by what happened here.

03:17So I'm very glad that we get to talk about this because I think a lot of people could

03:22use some, some Dan guidance on this one and not me, you dare.

03:28Yeah.

03:29Well, I'm going to go ahead and read it and I'm going to read from the new revised standard

03:34version and then talk a little bit about some of the issues that we have and how we go about

03:38interpreting this because there are some oddities here and I'm going to suggest that we're probably

03:45not getting the story as it was originally told.

03:48We've got some theories about how it may have looked originally, but I'll go ahead and read.

03:54Okay.

03:55I might stop you as we, as we go on, just because of that.

03:57Yeah.

03:58Yeah.

03:59Feel free to things.

04:00So verse 18, "The sons of Noah who went out of the ark were Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

04:06Ham was the father of Canaan."

04:09Which I'm going to stop you right there because that jumps out at you.

04:12Right.

04:13I think about like Shem and Japheth have their own lineages that go on from which we are

04:19all descended theoretically, you know, these are the three from whom we are all descended.

04:25But it just takes a whole little moment to separate out Ham and his lineage.

04:32Yeah.

04:33And then a bit later, we're going to mention Ham again and then we're going to get another

04:37parenthetical remark of the father of Canaan, just so you're aware.

04:41So yeah, we are being, they're leading us.

04:44Right.

04:45There's some foreshadowing going on here, which is indicative that maybe there's some literary

04:51shenanigans going on here.

04:53And we're going to talk about what that might have been.

04:56Yeah.

04:57So you'll need to explain in a minute, we'll pull the pen on Canaan.

05:03Yeah.

05:05These three were the sons of Noah.

05:07And from these, the whole earth was peopled.

05:10Noah, a man of the soil was the first to plant a vineyard.

05:15And I'm going to stop myself here to point out that a lot of scholars think that the

05:20story of Noah before the flood story was put in here was just a story of the etiology

05:29for a viticulture.

05:31Oh, weird.

05:32Okay.

05:33That Noah was just the first viticulturist.

05:36And that's, that was his role in the story.

05:39And then we get, the flood gets introduced later.

05:43So we get this, Noah, man of the soil was the first to plant a vineyard.

05:48It seems kind of.

05:49I am going to jump in here.

05:51Sorry, I had to switch things up on my screen to the KJV because that line that he's a man

05:57of the soil and first to plant a vineyard, the way it's rendered in the KJV is maybe

06:02my favorite for wording in the universe, which is, and Noah began to be an husbandman.

06:08Yes.

06:09And he planted a vineyard.

06:10Yeah.

06:11You began to be an husbandman.

06:13So that turns fast.

06:17I don't think, I don't think husbandry, we don't, first of all, we don't use the word

06:23and husband men.

06:25Yeah.

06:26These days.

06:27And, and for those who are wondering what's going on with the N, the N husband men.

06:31So on an indefinite article, you can have A or an, and usually you have an, if the next

06:37word begins with a vowel.

06:39And so in the period when the King James version was translated, you didn't pronounce the H.

06:44Yeah.

06:45It was an husband men.

06:47So it just was more natural that way.

06:50So yeah, there we go.

06:52Okay.

06:53Sorry.

06:54We're up to again.

06:55No worries.

06:56I promise I'll, I'll, I'll try to let you get through this thing.

06:57So we're getting reintroduced to Noah as someone who is significant only because he makes wine.

07:05And though we've had, um, two and a half chapters of discussion about Noah so far, he drank

07:10some of the wine and became drunk and he lay uncovered in his tent as, you know, as you

07:16like to do sometimes, you know, what everybody's done it.

07:19It's a fun day, uh, you know, you got a warm day and you're, you're drinking your wine.

07:24There's nobody else on the planet except for your children, your family.

07:29Yeah.

07:30And ham father of Canaan saw the nakedness of his father and told his two brothers outside.

07:38Then Shem and J.

07:395th took a garment, laid it on both their shoulders and walked backward and covered the nakedness

07:44of their father.

07:45Their faces were turned away and they did not see their father's nakedness when Noah

07:51awoke from his wine and knew what his youngest son had done to him.

07:56He said, cursed be Canaan.

07:59The lowest of slaves shall he be to his brothers.

08:02He also said, blessed by the Lord, my God, be Shem and let Canaan be his slave.

08:09May God make space for J. 5th and let him live in the tents of Shem and let Canaan be

08:14his slave and that that is so harsh.

08:21I mean, look, I, I don't know how to interpret that other than what it actually says, which

08:27is, correct me if I'm wrong, ham accidentally walked in on his dad naked and his dad was

08:36like, okay, all of your descendants for the rest of forever are slaves now because you

08:43did something so bad.

08:46That is, that is a good surface reading of this, but I'm going to raise some questions

08:50here.

08:51Thank God.

08:52Because I, the surface reading is a, gives me no comfort.

08:57So yes, raise some questions.

08:59It's not going to get appreciably better, but we're going to, we're going to raise some

09:03questions here.

09:04Okay.

09:05So he says, it says when Noah awoke from his wine and knew what his youngest son had done

09:08to him.

09:09Now, when they mentioned the children, it's sham, sham, ham and J. 5th in the Hebrew Bible,

09:15when they list children, they list them oldest to youngest.

09:19Okay.

09:20This is not the youngest according to, according to the way they list them, sham, ham and

09:26J. 5th.

09:27According to that convention, J. 5th would be the youngest, right?

09:32Ham would be the middle child, but here it says his youngest son had done to him.

09:36Okay.

09:37Now here's another issue.

09:38If Canaan is Ham's son, Lois of slave shall be, he be to his brothers.

09:47Unless it be the Lord, my God, by the Lord, my God, be sham, let Canaan be his slave.

09:51May God make space for J. 5th and let him live in the tents of sham and let Canaan be his

09:55slave.

09:56Those are his uncles.

09:57Yeah.

09:58Not his brothers.

09:59Right.

10:00So we got something funky going on here.

10:01Yeah.

10:02If we're cursing Canaan, then yeah, that's, that's weird.

10:06There is a way to resolve this.

10:08Oh, and the resolution is that Canaan was the youngest son of Noah and ham was not even

10:16in this story originally.

10:18If you have sham, J. 5th and Canaan as his three sons, cursed be Canaan, Lois of the slave

10:24shall he be to his brothers, namely, sham and J. 5th, his two older brothers, making

10:29him the youngest.

10:31So a lot of scholars think originally this story was probably about sham, J. 5th and

10:38Canaan, and so our little curse that Noah levels against the youngest son was probably

10:48just leveled at Canaan.

10:50And so this raises the question, well, what's ham doing in here?

10:54And one theory is that ham would, according to Genesis 10, and the other genealogies ham

11:01would be the eponymous ancestor of the Egyptians and other Africans, Ethiopians and things

11:08like that.

11:09And so it may be that in order to ensure that as it says in Genesis 9, 19, from these, the

11:17whole earth was peopled, they're like, we need somebody to cover Africa.

11:22Let's get this guy ham and we need to stick him into the Noah story.

11:27Well we got Canaan in there right now.

11:28Okay, well, we'll make Canaan the son of ham.

11:32Now this leaves these kind of narrative incongruities, got continuity problems here.

11:40And so that's what what scholars suggest is probably going on here.

11:44What makes ham eponymous for the Africans, for if you, you've talked about, and this

11:51is not a word that is used a lot, but hemitic people.

11:55Oh, okay, and also in the 18th and 19th century, when European and American Christians were

12:02trying to authorize and validate the enslavement of Africans, then this curse became their proof

12:12text.

12:13Yeah.

12:14The hemitic curse, the curse of the offspring of ham to be slaves.

12:18Well, right there.

12:20There you go.

12:21I heard that used, like I remember that being a thing that people talked about.

12:26Yeah.

12:27And, and there are a couple of good books that talk about this, this concept of the, the

12:36curse of ham by a, an author, I think it's gold, yeah, Goldenberg in 2003 published a

12:45book called the curse of ham race and slavery and early Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

12:51That is a wonderful book.

12:53And then there's another one that is even more recent that is from 2017, David M. Goldenberg,

13:02black and slave, the origins and history of the curse of ham goes over how this idea kind

13:10of sprang from the Bible and then became the proof text for enslaving Africans for the

13:18modern European world.

13:20So that's how it's been deployed.

13:25But yeah, initially it was probably just covering the ground saying, okay, now we got somebody

13:30to cover Africa.

13:31We got somebody to cover the semites.

13:32We got somebody to cover the other people out there.

13:37And so we can say that the whole earth was people now that we've got ham in place.

13:42And it, and it caused them, you know, a little hiccup in the narrative, but they're not too

13:46upset about that.

13:47Now, the Israelite people, the people who would be deploying this who would be reading this

13:54believe that they come from, from which, from sham, from sham, from sham.

13:59Yeah, this is where we get the word Semitic.

14:01Oh, oh, there you go.

14:04Yeah.

14:05Okay.

14:06Great.

14:07And then frequently in the rest of the Hebrew Bible, the Canaanites are their enemies.

14:13Yes.

14:14So this is, this is sort of an, an etiology for the beginning of that.

14:21Yeah.

14:22And in it, in that time period, the idea here was we don't like the Canaanites.

14:26We want to dominate the Canaanites.

14:28We want to enslave the Canaanites.

14:29And here's our authorization.

14:31So in the ancient world, it was, well, this authorizes our enslavement of the Canaanites.

14:38And then in the 18th and 19th century, well, this authorizes our enslavement of the, the

14:43Hamitic peoples.

14:44So it's being deployed to structure power and values in the service of their own identity

14:52politics.

14:55So here's an interesting question.

14:59What on earth does it mean that Ham saw the nakedness of his father?

15:04Yeah.

15:05I mean, that's the big, big glaring problem of the story, right?

15:09Because a, the story doesn't indicate at all that anything, like it was an accident.

15:16He just happened to walk in and bought a big dad.

15:20Have you seen my PS foot?

15:21Whoa.

15:22Yeah.

15:23Exactly.

15:24And then he immediately like take steps.

15:25Hey brothers, don't, you know, he goes and like gives them warning and like, well, there's

15:31and that that's one way to interpret it.

15:34I think most people have, have interpreted it to be like he went outside and was like,

15:38it's what I just saw.

15:40And then the brothers were like, how dare you?

15:43And they, they're the ones who, who carefully backed their way in.

15:48But, but one of the reasons, there are two reasons that a lot of very early in the history

15:54of the interpretation of the Hebrew Bible, we're talking early, rabbinic literature.

15:58They're like something else is going on here.

16:00Yeah.

16:01And one of the reasons is that the, the curse of a Ham or Canaan seems to be a bit of an

16:09over-correction.

16:10Maybe a little tiny, tiny bit disproportional.

16:13Yeah.

16:14Um, and the other thing is it says he, he woke up and knew what his youngest son had done

16:20to him and people are like, well, what if he just walked in and was like, Oh crap.

16:26And then walked out, how would Noah have known what his son did to him?

16:32Right.

16:33And so in the, uh, in the early rabbinic period, you have this reading that he castrated him

16:40and the idea.

16:41Yeah.

16:43And the idea being this accounts for the curse.

16:46He ended Noah's line, so now Noah is going to curse his line, not Ham, but Canaan.

16:52So everybody who comes from his line is now cursed.

16:57So that was an early rabbinic interpretation.

16:59We have another interpretation in other rabbinic literature that reads it as a case of paternal

17:04incest that's, uh, Ham sexually assaulted his unconscious, uh, drunk naked father.

17:15Which is, uh, yeah, let that marry like, but all of that is pretty intense.

17:22Uh, uh, both of those are very, uh, like you get the curse more, but what, what's baffling

17:31to me is, uh, how, how completely unspoken, either of those things are.

17:38Yeah.

17:39In the text, no, there's, there is a, a datum, a piece of data that's, uh, folks have appealed

17:47to, to, um, to reinforce the sexual interpretation of Ham's sin.

17:56And that is the fact that Ham sees his father's nakedness.

17:59Now this is something that this is a phrase that occurs elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible.

18:04Now there is one occurrence in Leviticus 20 verse 17 that has to do with, uh, an act of

18:13sexual intercourse.

18:15And this is in, in a piece of legislation that talks about not, um, a man not marrying

18:21his sister.

18:23And the issue though with, with understanding seeing nakedness to mean a sexual act is that

18:30seeing nakedness in no other passage has to do with a sexual act, uncovering somebody's

18:36nakedness refers to a sexual act dozens of times.

18:40Okay.

18:41So this, the, the idiom is uncovering one's nakedness.

18:45In fact, in that passage in Leviticus where it says, um, if a man marry his sister and

18:52then he has seen her nakedness, she has seen his nakedness, he has uncovered her nakedness

18:59and then, you know, um, that it's a trouble.

19:04So that being a different act than seeing the nakedness.

19:07Right.

19:08Right.

19:09The uncovering the nakedness is, um, is still kind of covering the, the act of, of sexual

19:12Congress there.

19:13And everywhere else in Leviticus where it talks about not, you know, a man not sleeping with

19:18his father, sleeping with his sister, sleeping with his, I was going to say wife's sister,

19:22but I'm not sure if they really cared, um, but there were, there were a bunch of places

19:28where uncovering one's nakedness is a reference to a sexual act seeing nakedness usually is

19:32a reference to the exposure of vulnerability or shame.

19:37Because when, when Adam and Eve first gained knowledge of good and evil, what's the first

19:42thing they realized?

19:43They saw that they were naked.

19:44They were shamed and they felt shame and they covered themselves up.

19:48And then you have like Joseph when, uh, when he's pretending to be Pharaoh and his brother

19:53show up, he says, ah, you've come to see the nakedness of the land referring to the vulnerability

20:00of Egypt during the famine.

20:02And this, and this happens throughout the Hebrew Bible.

20:05This idea of seeing someone's nakedness is seeing their shame or their vulnerability.

20:12And this was, this was a serious thing, anciently and still in, um, in that part of the world,

20:18the idea of, uh, nakedness is considered very shameful.

20:22And this was one of the reasons that, um, during the, um, the Gulf war, one of the things

20:28that, uh, sometimes soldiers did in an awful and criminal act was strip their prisoners

20:35naked and then take photographs of them and, um, you know, make them engage in all kinds

20:41of acts while they were naked.

20:43And this was considered just supremely, uh, shameful.

20:48And so seeing someone seeing your father's nakedness, seeing your father's vulnerability

20:54and shame and not protecting it, but actually going and telling other people about it would

20:59have been considered a pretty serious indiscretion at the time.

21:03Uh, and so I, I think that is the most likely reading that.

21:07Yeah, it may not make much sense to, to most readers today, but yeah, the idea is just that

21:13Ham walked in and instead of covering up his father, protecting his honor, he went and

21:20spread his shame and then his brothers had to go in and cover him up.

21:25And then the story about the brothers covering him up also makes the other readings nonsensical.

21:32So if seeing his nakedness refers to castrating him or sexually assaulting him or sexually

21:38assaulting his wife, how does this fit where they walk in backwards with garments?

21:45And they're very careful not to accidentally sexually assault him, right?

21:49Very careful not to accidentally castrate him.

21:51They made sure not to, not to, not to cut his balls off again.

21:55Yeah, we got to walk in backwards, um, avert your eyes.

21:59Let's drop this garment over him so that we will offer no medical attention.

22:03Uh, but we will make, we'll put a nice blanket on you.

22:07Yeah.

22:08Um, and that'll soak up most of the blood.

22:10So, um, I, I think it's very clearly, um, needs to be read as a reference to just seeing

22:18his father's, uh, shame.

22:20Yeah.

22:21And, and I think there's a, um, oh, and I don't know if I mentioned it, but one of the

22:27other readings that has been promoted more recently is that it was, um, maternal incest

22:33that this was not a reference to sexually assaulting Noah, but Noah's wife.

22:39And that was a reading that was promoted, um, in a journal of biblical literature article

22:43from 2005 by John Bergman, Scott Hahn called Noah's nakedness and the curse on Canaan where

22:48they argued this was maternal incest.

22:50So that, that has kind of become in vogue recently because of, uh, of that article.

22:56But these, these readings are more salacious.

22:59And so people find them more interesting because, I mean, in, in fairness.

23:03To him, there were like seven people left in the whole world.

23:08So like, you know, there's not, there's not many people that can satisfy whatever sexy

23:12feelings you're having, um, but still your dad or your mom is probably the wrong choice.

23:18Yeah.

23:21And when it comes to Noah waking up and knowing what his youngest son had done to him, that's

23:28kind of a McGuffin.

23:29Yeah.

23:30And Noah has to find out for this curse to happen.

23:35And so if you're, you're, you're not going to go through this lengthy discussion of, of

23:40here's how Noah found out, you're just going to say, and look, Noah found out, okay, don't

23:45worry about why, but, or how Noah found out.

23:48And so I, I don't think that creates any, any problems for a straightforward reading.

23:52So I think we need to understand this on a literary level and not on a historical level.

23:56We're way too often people are trying to imagine what's going on behind the scenes.

24:00What's going on in the minds of the actors and, and it's like, that's not helping you

24:04make sense of a story that somebody wrote.

24:08Right.

24:09What's going to help you make sense of a story that somebody wrote is how do authors think

24:12about this?

24:13How do authors utilize characters?

24:16What literary conventions might be influencing how they're telling the story, their way they're

24:20telling the story.

24:21Well, and, and as we've talked about, it's not just, you know, first you have to think

24:27about the author.

24:28And then you have to think about how this has been transmitted through time because it

24:33seems to me that the ham, the father of Canaan, you know, that father of Canaan being inserted

24:39a bunch of times, that seems likely to be an afterthought that somebody else jammed in

24:46there.

24:47Right.

24:48They're like, Hey, man, you left Canaan as the, as the one who's getting cursed.

24:53And you're telling this story about him and it's like, Oh, don't worry about it.

24:56We'll just say, Ham was a father of Canaan.

24:58And then that will prime the pump and everybody will be like, Oh, I got you.

25:01That's why because he's, he's his father.

25:03So, yeah, I think we can see the, the, um, authorial seams in here as the story is coming

25:12together.

25:13So it's not as salacious a reading to say, yeah, Ham saw Noah naked and rather than protect

25:20his father's honor, he went and spread his shame as brothers, um, protected his father,

25:27their father's honor.

25:28And so Noah, um, said die curse you and, um, initially the story was about Canaan and later

25:35on they wrote Ham into the story because they needed, they needed somebody to be the eponymous

25:40ancestor to the Africans and was their guy.

25:45So, so we got, it's both, it's both more complex and more simple.

25:50Yeah.

25:51The readings that have been ginned up to try to account for this.

25:54I got to tell you, you have not convinced me that this is a good passage that this is

26:00that like anything positive has occurred here or that I should like it at all.

26:05No, uh, certainly, uh, that's not the goal of me trying to clarify what's going on here.

26:13I had something I've noticed recently as, um, as on, on Twitter, I've gotten a lot more

26:19attention from, uh, uh, from Christian nationalists and others.

26:25There seems to be an uptick in people who will see a video or a tweet of mine where I

26:29say something along the lines of the Bible support slavery from beginning to end.

26:35And they're like, Oh, you're saying slavery is good?

26:38No, no, I'm telling you what was in the Bible.

26:43I'm not saying I endorse biblical morality or, or biblical ethics.

26:48I'm saying this is what the Bible says.

26:50And so now some friends of mine are like, you should probably put a disclaimer on there

26:54just to kind of cut off those, those claims.

26:57And I think it's the most ludicrous thing in the world that I would need to let people

27:02know.

27:03That's cause I'm saying the Bible says this does not mean I'm saying this is the word

27:08of God and everybody should be doing it.

27:10Um, yeah, that will, but I will make it explicit that, uh, the, the, it is the official position

27:18of the data over dogma podcast that slavery is bad.

27:22Okay.

27:23Uh, and as, as is cursing someone's line, uh, forever period, really.

27:31I just don't think that that's okay.

27:33I don't think that that's a great, uh, thing to do.

27:35Yeah.

27:36And, and even the, in the Bible, you know, you got, you got some people who say, uh, well,

27:41God will, um, curse your, uh, your offspring, uh, to the fourth generation or water.

27:47And then you got other ones who say they will not visit the iniquity of the fathers upon

27:50the children.

27:51So whichever God of the Bible you endorse, let's hope it's the one that does not, um,

27:59visit the iniquities of the father on the, on the children until the fourth generation.

28:02Yeah.

28:03Especially if those iniquities are like, just like snickering a little bit at soon.

28:07Yeah.

28:08Yeah.

28:09Yeah.

28:10Yeah.

28:11Walk in on, on your dad naked.

28:12Um, I mean, who, uh, you know, let he who has not done that cast the first stones.

28:16Um, what is the, what are the in like, there are cartoons and things like that where you

28:23have, uh, oh, like flash and what's the, what is it?

28:27Evil flash or something like, who's got the yellow costume?

28:30Like there's you got son, I'm out of my depth on this one.

28:34Yeah.

28:35They usually have like an anti character for some folks.

28:38So says the guy who's wearing a bizarro Superman shirt as well.

28:44Yeah.

28:45At, uh, when we first hopped on Dan was like, is your video backwards?

28:49No, it's not.

28:50What's going on?

28:51Um, is the S on your shirt is backward.

28:54Um, yeah, but, uh, and so the Bible has your, your God and your, and your yellow God or

29:00your anti God or your, um, your, whatever, uh, however you want to qualify the hero with

29:07their anti counterpart, um, but yeah, I'm going to have to start doing a bizarro God, uh, segment

29:16on the show.

29:17Yeah, the one that, uh, yeah, when we, uh, we talked about that in revelation a little

29:23bit.

29:24That's true.

29:25The Zorro God of revelation.

29:26That's true.

29:27So yeah, um, uh, spay and new to your pets, everybody, and, and, and I think that's a

29:34great way to leave it off, uh, because it's going to lead us, you know, just this talk

29:40of nakedness and shame.

29:43I think is a great lead in to our next segment, your patriarchy and you.

29:51So, uh, here, here's the thing, uh, recently you got into some, some Twitter dustups, uh,

29:59as you are known to do as my won't as your won't, uh, you, you occasionally will disagree

30:06with some people on, on Twitter or, um, or X if, uh, if you care what Elon Musk thinks.

30:16I will.

30:17I don't think I'll ever call it that.

30:18I don't think I'm willing by the, the book I'm working on a trade book right now.

30:22And there's a, there's a chapter where I start off with an anecdote and I talk about Twitter

30:26and it's like so and so wrote on Twitter and then parenthetically I had just have or whatever.

30:31Um, yeah, exactly.

30:34Whatever it is.

30:35It's going to die soon.

30:36Anyway, it's already lost billions of dollars.

30:38Anyway, uh, here's the thing.

30:42One of the things that you were talking about, uh, was a concept that is near and dear to

30:48many Christian and Jewish and, uh, Muslim people's heart, which is the dressing modestly

30:59of women.

31:00Yes.

31:01The modest dressing of women, um, it's a phrase that all started.

31:06Uh, no, I don't.

31:08Okay.

31:09Uh, um, there's a beer company called conservative dad.

31:15Oh God.

31:17And um, the full name is conservative dad, I think it's a ultra right beer or something

31:24like that.

31:25Um, and they released a 2024 real women of America calendar.

31:33So a pinup calendar with conservative women, like Dana Loash and, and other folks like

31:40that who are well known in the conservative world in various states of dress and undress.

31:47So it is intended to be, uh, titillating and a lot of the, um, blue checks on Twitter just

31:58went ballistic, uh, called it satanic, called this, um, yeah, said that this was, uh, soft

32:07porn, um, said it was, quote, not conservative in perhaps the most vicious cut of all, um,

32:16and, uh, and you had a lot of Christians who just loudly braying about how upset they

32:23were that these women would appear in this calendar and they would purport to be conservatives.

32:29And, and so that then caused all of these Christians to find their, let's say, find

32:35their relief in, um, spewing scripture all over Twitter, well, about, uh, I mean, this

32:44is a tradition that goes back a long way.

32:47And, uh, and there are a whole bunch, you know, I, I went and did a bunch of, uh, poking

32:52around to find who was saying what about how the ladies should dress.

32:58Interestingly, so many of the places that I found, and we'll, we'll talk about this

33:03a little while later, but so many of them said that, that men should also dressed modestly,

33:10but no time was spent on like what that looked like, but a lot of time was spent on what

33:19women dressing modestly looks like. Right. Uh, and they did. They, they, uh, should I

33:25just, uh, rattle off a few of the, uh, the scriptures that we've, uh, that have been

33:31given to support the idea that, uh, that women need to dress modestly and we'll get to what

33:38modesty might mean. Yeah. Well, as the, as the mediocre poet once said, all right, let's

33:44see it. Indeed. Uh, I'm going to start with first Timothy chapter two, which I, which

33:51I saw a lot of, uh, and that starts on, on verse nine. It says also that the women should

33:59dress themselves in moderate clothing with reverence and self control, not with their

34:06hair braided or with gold pearls or expensive clothes, but with good works as as proper for

34:13women who profess reverence for God. Yes. Now I've never seen anyone berate a woman,

34:22a Christian woman for wearing gold or pearls or for braiding her hair or for braiding her

34:27hair. There's a lot of braided Christians out there. That's the word of God. Um, it's

34:33right there. Yeah. Timothy. So, um, we've talked about Timothy before, um, which is not, uh,

34:42Pauline comes from later on written by somebody who was pretending to be Paul,

34:46but they're reflecting pretty standard, uh, Greco-Roman ideologies regarding the household,

34:52the Oikonamia of, of the standard house, which where everyone had a specific role and a place

34:59and everything stayed in its place. And the woman's role was to be respectable to bring honor rather

35:07than shame to her household and to her husband and to basically be seen and not heard. And the word

35:14here that is, uh, translated modest is, um, co-smills. Uh, and I'll read from a lexicon here,

35:24one sense, which is probably not the sense we're talking about is having characteristics or

35:28qualities that evoke admiration or delight and expression of high regard for a person

35:33respectable, honorable. Uh, the sense that we're probably dealing here with is related, uh,

35:39being appropriate for winning approval or appropriate. So it's just saying wearing appropriate

35:47clothing. And then we have the explanation of what that means, not braided hair or gold

35:55or pearls or expensive clothing. So appropriate here very clearly means not ostentatious displays

36:04of wealth. Yeah, that very clearly seems to be about showing off. Yeah. It's about, I mean, so like,

36:11I would imagine that a modern equivalent would be not with like Louis Vuitton labels and like,

36:20you know, Gucci all over everything. Yeah. Well, and in this time period, um, early Christians,

36:25Greco-Roman period, Jewish folks, pretty conservative socially, probably dressing pretty

36:30conservative as well. There wouldn't have been too much of a, uh, there wouldn't have been a, uh,

36:34a very large, uh, standard deviation from how, um, most folks were dressing. And so, yeah,

36:41braiding your hair, wearing gold, wearing, um, you know, fancy stuff probably would have been

36:47considered, um, you know, trying to stand out. Right. And the idea here is don't stand out. Don't

36:54show people up, uh, do good things, look respectable, bring honor to the, to the household. Um, and so

37:02yeah, the, the admonition here is very clearly to not try to display wealth or status.

37:08Are you saying that showing that a woman showing her shoulders is not what second or what first

37:16Timothy is all about? Nobody is saying anything about shoulders at all. Nobody mentioned skin.

37:21No, there's, there's no part of, there's only one part of the entire Bible that has anything to do

37:28with identifying a body part that a woman must cover. And that's in first Corinthians 11. And

37:34that's where Paul says, when you're praying or prophesying, please for the sake of all that is

37:40good and holy, put a cover on your head. And, and this is, this is a temporary thing. This isn't,

37:48you know, men are going to be driven crazy with lust. If they see your forehead or your hair,

37:53it's just, it has to do with, with probably, um, kind of ritual conventions of the, of the time,

37:59period. And Paul's just rationalizing it. He probably doesn't want to overturn the apple cart,

38:04and this was a convention. And so he's coming up with a rationalization.

38:07In fairness, he gets, he goes pretty hard on it. Like he does go hard on it. Yeah. He's, he says,

38:13if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair. But if it is shameful for a

38:19woman to have her hair cut or off or be shaved, she should wear a veil. Yeah. So, um, and Paul

38:26elsewhere says nature itself testifies that long hair on a man is shameful. Yes. So, you know,

38:33he's a biologist. He knows what he's talking about. Um, he knows nature has agency. So, um,

38:40and, and not only is it shameful, uh, if a man has long hair, but it's glorious if a woman has

38:46long hair. Yeah. If a woman has long hair, it is her glory. Yeah. For her hair is given for her,

38:52a covering. Yeah. It's given to her for a covering. Yeah. But, but you still got to cover the covering,

38:58you got to cover the covering, which is a weird, okay, fine for the sake of the angels. Right. And,

39:05and scholars really don't know what on earth, uh, is going on here. There are, there are ideas

39:10that maybe there was a, uh, cultic practice where, where women, uh, were not covering their head and

39:17these, these practices were seen as, as unseemly. And so they didn't want to be associated with

39:22these other cultic practices or a, we don't know exactly what's going on. But one thing we can

39:27say for sure is this has nothing to do with ensuring that nobody's getting wood from watching you

39:34pray. Yeah. That, that seems to be very true because it's only when she's praying that she's, uh,

39:41that she's doing this. Yeah. And I mean, not to kink shame, but, uh, if that's your thing,

39:47maybe leave the ladies alone at church. Um, so, uh, what, what else do we got? Uh, I think, you know,

39:56oh, so there's, you know, Deuteronomy has a whole thing about a woman shall not wear a man's apparel,

40:01or shall a man put on a tournament five. Yeah. Yeah. That's that, that, you know, I,

40:07what is a woman or a man's apparel changes dramatically over time? Yes. I mean, depending on,

40:14we can all sort of look back at any costume drama and see that like, what is a woman's clothing

40:22has been different. And what is a man's clothing has been different forever. And a lot of the things

40:27that women wear, you know, wore, wear men's clothing first, high heels, wear men's first,

40:33you know, makeup was invented for men first, all of that sort of thing. So that seems situational

40:41and is not at all specific. It doesn't say here are the specific garments that men wear that women

40:48wouldn't. Yeah. And, and there's also not a parody. Like, uh, if it said, don't, a woman should not

40:56wear a man's clothes and a man should not wear a woman's clothes. Like that would be, that would be

41:02some parody, but they actually use different words to describe each thing. And so this is confused

41:07a lot of people. There are some folks that think this has to do with like armor, like women should

41:12not put on the work clothes of warrior men, um, and things like that. So women need to, um, you know,

41:20be in the domestic sphere. They should not go out and, and fight battles. That's reading a lot of

41:28extra stuff into it. That's, that's not there. Uh, but yeah, this is, I, I, I personally don't know

41:37that I would be able to distinguish the apparel of a man from the apparel of a woman, uh, in the time

41:44period of the composition of Deuteronomy 22. Yeah. If I were just thrown back in time and some,

41:51uh, somebody, I saw somebody from behind and they were wearing clothes, I wouldn't,

41:55probably wouldn't be able to tell if it was a man or a woman. Yeah. To a, to a, a modern eye. It's like,

42:01Oh, look at that robe that that person is wearing. Yeah. And this has, this has something to do with,

42:06there's a passage in, Oh, shoot, I forget where it is. Uh, you may have run across it, but there's a

42:14part where they talk about somebody, um, dressed in, uh, the clothes of a sex worker. Oh, yeah. Yeah,

42:22I, I, I did bump across that, but I didn't actually, I didn't pull it. Okay. So the, and, and here's a

42:29passage where some people think, Oh, that must be similar to what we talk about when we talk about

42:35somebody dressing like, uh, you know, a lady of the night. She's dressed like a hooker. Yeah. It's like,

42:42I, they probably didn't do the same thing with, um, their dress to signal their profession. Um,

42:49right. And recently it was, there was probably some kind of way that they used, uh, their clothing

42:55to indicate what they did. And it probably didn't have to do with showing more skin. Yeah. It was a

43:01junky hat. Yeah. You put a feather in your hat and then everybody knows, um, yeah. Um,

43:09so there was probably some kind of coded, uh, apparel that allowed people to identify, uh,

43:15like I do have Zephaniah one, which I thought was confusing. Okay. Zephaniah one verse eight says,

43:20and on the day of the Lord's sacrifice, I will punish the officials and the king's sons and all

43:26who dress themselves in foreign attire. Uh huh. That's the, uh, the NRSV. Yeah. Yes. Go ahead. So,

43:35so again, you know, it's a prohibition of about how we dress, but clearly, like, obviously,

43:42that has nothing to do with modesty in any sense that we think of it. It's yeah. Yeah. It's about

43:48signaling your tribe or whatever. Yeah. And, and some of the three, like most essential features of

43:57an ethnic identity, a, a people's identity, language, food, dress. And so there are many

44:06different ways that people signal belonging through dress. And it does not have to be the

44:11percentage of skin that is covered or uncovered. It can be so many different ways. Uh, and so,

44:16yeah, here it's, uh, you know, maybe they, um, you know, point the bill of their cap the other

44:22direction and the other, and the other country. Maybe they butter the other side of their bread.

44:27Maybe they open their soft boiled egg from the other end. Uh, there are just so many different

44:33ways that you can create, uh, the schismogenesis. You can create these identity markers by doing

44:40little changes. They wear blue and they wear red. Um, you know, you could do a bunch of different

44:45things. And so when, when you were in the UK, did you, uh, did you pick up the habit of turning your

44:50fork upside down and smushing all the food onto the back of the fork? I think that's, that's one

44:57where, where we could rumble with, uh, with the grits on how to use a fork. Uh, I, I did not do

45:05that. I'm sure that I horrified a number of the locals when I, um, when I was there, let's see,

45:10two October's ago, I was, uh, I was in the UK for work and I swung by Oxford and a friend of mine

45:17was doing a, uh, a fellowship at modeling college. And so he invited me to come have lunch at the

45:23college with him, which is like a fancy affair. Um, but yeah, it was, it was, uh, it was fun.

45:31And I'm sure that, uh, there were people looking at me like you silly yank. They, they forgave your

45:37evil American fork usage. Yeah. Well, I think I might have actually been wearing my, uh, my

45:43bizarro t-shirt. Now that I think about it, it's like I'm almost positive. I was aware to a, uh,

45:49a graphic T and it might have been this one. So, um, to, uh, to return to, uh, modesty,

46:00I think we've got something in first Peter three, which is basically the same thing that we've got

46:05in first Timothy two. Right. Um, do not adorn yourselves outwardly by braiding your hair and by

46:10wearing gold ornaments or fine clothing. Literally the exact same three things. Right. That is, uh,

46:16that are mentioned in first Timothy two, rather let your adornment be the inner self with the

46:21lasting beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in God's sight. Aw. And, and

46:26it's just saying the same thing that this modesty here is about avoiding ostentatious displays of

46:31wealth. And so I, I said something on Twitter that a lot of people, um, immediately wanted to try to,

46:36um, refute me on, but there's not a single passage anywhere in the Bible that tells women they have

46:43to cover up their bodies so that men are not driven to lust after them or sexually assault them or,

46:51uh, just get upset with them for, um, you know, whatever that is the, uh, the thing that you see

46:59all the time, that is the, uh, the excuse that all of these, and you know, it's, it's not, and it's not

47:06just men making this argument. Women make this argument to other women as well. Yeah. That somehow,

47:11if they dress sexily or in a way that, uh, that could encourage men's lust, they are then, uh,

47:23responsible for, for causing their brothers in Christ to stumble. You know, there's a reference to

47:30in, in Romans 14, uh, verse 13 that says, let us therefore no longer pass judgment on one another,

47:38but resolve instead never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother or sister,

47:43uh, which, yeah, that, I mean, you could interpret it that way, but that's not what

47:52that doesn't seem to be what that, uh, passage actually says. It's not

47:56about women dressing at one, one way or another. Yeah. Yeah. This has, this has nothing to do with,

48:01uh, with governing how, how women are dressing. I mean, it's just, it just doesn't say anything

48:06about that. Ironically, it says don't pass judgment on somebody else, which, uh, it seems like

48:13everyone who comments on how a woman dresses in a negative way like this is, is, is very much

48:21passing judgment on that woman. Yeah. And, and what is appropriate or inappropriate is, is subjective,

48:27is relative, uh, they're, they're, they're, it's going to horrify a lot of people who have never

48:33left the country or never learned another language, but there are many parts of the world where, um,

48:39degrees of nudity that would make us uncomfortable are just part of everyday life, where that is

48:47just the way it is. And nobody bats an eye at it. Um, and so if a guy, uh, so there's this guy, um,

48:54Joshua Haymes on, on Twitter, uh, who is, uh, a, you know, a mustache and cigar, uh, enjoyer, uh,

49:03who was, says, um, and I, this was one of the tweets that I responded to. He says, I was once

49:09put into the position of having to address a woman for regularly, not wearing a bra to church on Sunday.

49:15Horrific. Um, that that was my editorializing. Uh, Joshua continues. I was accused of body shaming

49:22pause for gasps. Right. The truth is it is incredibly unloving to allow a fellow sister in Christ to

49:30continue causing brothers to stumble without addressing it. So here we're not even talking

49:35about covering your body. We're talking about restraining covered parts of your body. Right.

49:41So that somebody else doesn't catch wood, which is asinine. And that is certainly not in the Bible.

49:50No, absolutely not. The other thing is the thing that's really interesting

49:54is that when you delve into this conversation, when you start to look at how this conversation

50:00happens, I mentioned earlier how there's, uh, there's frequently a, uh, a sort of compulsory,

50:06but half hearted nod to, yes, gentlemen should also men should also, you know, dress modest or

50:12whatever. Yeah. But one thing that has never mentioned in talking about how men dress is their

50:18bodies. Yeah. Nobody ever says, never, nobody ever says the word body when they talk about a man's

50:25dress, but man, a woman's body is cut, you know, oh, you have to wear enough to cover your body.

50:33Oh, you shouldn't, the contours of her body. Oh, the this and that. And it's just like,

50:37uh, that, and in all of the scripture that I see cited for this, there's never a mention

50:44of the woman's body. The scripture is, is completely devoid of that. That is just imposed upon it.

50:52Yeah. And, um, this is today, obviously the, the, this discourse is largely

50:58governed by the male gaze. This is about what is of concern and what is of interest to men. Um,

51:05and for the most part, you know, they're not, they're not worried about it. This is something

51:09that, um, there are some comic book artists that I used to be fans of. I, a fan of, I'm no longer

51:15a fan of them because when a debate erupted about the way women are portrayed in comic books,

51:22they were ones who went out of their way to sexualize, uh, women. And a lot of them would be like,

51:28we do the same for men. And it's a power fantasy when you do it for men. Right. It is something

51:35entirely different when you do it for women. Uh, and, and that's part of the, how the male gaze,

51:42uh, governs comic books as well. Uh, a very disappointing feature of something that's, uh, I really enjoy.

51:50Yeah. I, I think that one of the, the eye opening moment for me was when someone decided to use

51:59Matthew five versus 28 and 29 to say that, uh, women should dress X or Y like there's a way that

52:09women should dress because that, and that verse came up a number of times as I was talking about

52:15renegotiating the Bible. Right. Exactly. Because litter, because if you've just read verse 28,

52:21it says, but I say to you, and usually it's just verse 28, I should be clear that only verse 28

52:28is mentioned. It says, but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already

52:33committed adultery with her in his heart. And what should they do? We tell the woman to cover up.

52:41Obviously, oh wait. No, that's not what Matthew says. What Matthew says is verse 29,

52:48if your right eye causes you to sin, aka lust after the woman, tear it out and throw it away.

52:57It is better for you to lose one of your members than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

53:04Which very clearly to me says, the responsibility for the man's lust has nothing to do with her.

53:12Yeah. And everything like if you want to remedy it, it's your eye. That's the problem. It is your.

53:20And you had you read you read a translation that said, uh, if your right eye causes you to sin,

53:26yeah, the word there in Greek is scandalizo, which means cause to stumble. So when this guy says,

53:36women are causing men to stumble. Well, the scripture says it's your own eye that is

53:45causing you to stumble. So it blames someone for lusting after a woman. And it is the man's eye.

53:53So it is, it is pretty clear in the scriptures, you will not find a passage that says women

54:01are responsible for this, or that's women have to cover up so that they don't cause this.

54:06It is entirely on the men. And this is not to say that the Bible is, you know, it's not the

54:16yes, queenification of the Bible. The Bible is, is very misogynistic in, in many, many places.

54:23And patriarchal and, and sort of, uh, yeah, it is to say, however, that what we have decided is going

54:31to be a battleground for us was not a battleground. Anciently, and when we try to reach back into the

54:38ancient world for a proof text in order to leverage the authority of the Bible for our own identity

54:45politics and our own identity markers, we have to read it into the text because it's not there.

54:51Yeah. Yeah. I, which is funny to me. I, I'll be honest with you, like I knew where we were going

54:59with this conversation when I was, when I started researching this, but I honestly did think that

55:04I would find some, some scriptures that would say that would support the argument in some way.

55:11Yeah. I'm shocked to find literally nothing. Literally nothing. Um, there was, there was one,

55:19another, uh, another guy on Twitter, uh, quoted one of the proverbs, Proverbs 11, 22. And, and he

55:26was like, I got you this one's crystal clear. And it says, um, like a gold ring and a pig's snout

55:33is a beautiful woman without discretion. And he, and he was commenting that all these conservative

55:39women who pose for this calendar, he, he called, he said they were covered in swine snot. Oh, which

55:46was, yes, he was trying to be as vulgar as he could while still maintaining plausible, the plausible

55:52deniability of a Christian man. Yeah. But he doesn't know his Hebrew because that word for

55:58discretion does not refer to modesty and dress. The word is Tom in Hebrew. And this refers to good

56:05sense or judgment. Um, and it's used elsewhere. Uh, Abigail gives David some, some advice and David

56:13considers it and then goes, blessed be your, um, your judgment, not your dressing modestly. So, yeah,

56:21you go ahead, tear the Bible apart, try and find a place where it explicitly tells women they need

56:26to cover up so that they don't cause men to lust after them. You will be looking for an awfully long

56:30time. That is so crazy to me. I, uh, because it has become such a whipping boy, uh, for the,

56:39the Christian right in this country, it is such an important thing to them that, that the fact that

56:45it's just not there, uh, yeah, it actually did take me by surprise. Oh, I do want to bring up one

56:52passage. Um, first, first Corinthians 12, uh, 23. Okay. Let me pull this up. So this is right. So

57:01here we have, um, uh, Paul is talking about, uh, the body of Christ as in the, the congregation,

57:08the membership, how we all have different roles and we make up different parts of the body.

57:12And in 1223 says, and this is the, uh, the NRSV and those members of the body that we think less

57:19honorable, we clove with greater honor and our less respectable members are treated with greater

57:26respect. And this word that the NRSV translates greater respect, uh, is S. Kimosini. Uh, and this

57:34word refers to the state of being appropriate for display, propriety decorum presentability.

57:43They have a word that refers to what we could plausibly argue means modest in dress, covering up what

57:53is considered shameful or private. Um, and it is only ever used to talk about everybody who is a

58:01Christian as a member of the body of Christ. It is not used and are actually, let me verify that. I,

58:07I don't think I found anything. Yeah. This is the only passage in all the New Testament where this

58:11word occurs. So they have the means to refer to women dressing in a way that is modest in dress

58:19covering up and they never use it to refer. Do we have any sense of where the word modest when,

58:25like how the word, the English word modest, which has the meaning, like, you know, the meaning from

58:31Timothy and from, uh, from Peter of being modest about your wealth, of being modest, meaning,

58:40like not showing off, not being, like that makes sense to me as a, as a, as a way of using the

58:47word modest. So I like to go to, um, the online, etymological dictionary to find out when, when words,

58:55um, started being used to mean certain things. If you have a subscription to the online Oxford

59:01English dictionary, great. Most people don't. Um, online, etymological dictionary is free.

59:06Adam online, E-T-Y-M online.com. You can look up any words you want modest, adjective 1560s,

59:14having moderate self regard, restrained by a sense of propriety or humility. Uh, so this is

59:22the sense that we see in the Bible. Yeah. From Latin modestus moderate, keeping do

59:26measure sober, gentle, temperate from modus, measure manner from proto into European root,

59:32med to take appropriate measures. None of that so far has anything to do with like cleavage.

59:39Right. Of women, not improper or lewd, pure in thought and context. So we're, we're moving

59:47that direction. That usage starts in the 1590s. Oh, okay. Of female attire, not gaudy or showy,

59:54that is the 1610s. Okay. So we've got a few different senses of this word. Right. Um,

60:01and today, yeah, when, um, you would use the word modest, most people would tie it immediately to

60:07unless the context indicates otherwise, most people would tie it to women covering up an

60:14appropriate amount of their body. Yeah. Like growing up, the only time I heard

60:19the word modest and, you know, in the context of women's dress, again, never men's dress,

60:27but it was always about, oh, you're showing too much leg. Oh, you're showing too much

60:32boob. Oh, you're showing too much shoulder, whatever. But it was literally about how much

60:37skin is being revealed by whatever clothing this person chose to wear.

60:43Yeah. Um, and an interesting thing, this, uh, this gentleman from Twitter, Joshua,

60:50who was put in the uncomfortable position of having to try and police a woman's nipples

60:55at church. Uh, he had a, he, he's a blue check. So he writes novels and posts on Twitter to be

61:03clear. For those of you who haven't kept up with how Twitter goes now, it used a blue check used to

61:09mean that you're a, a person, uh, like a famous person, a public figure, a public figure who has

61:17been, and your account has been verified to be actually you. Now it just means you paid Elon

61:24$8 a month or whatever. And, uh, and you get to, to, you know, blather more than 240 characters or

61:32whatever. Yeah. And many of them far more than 240 characters, but, um, this rant ended with him

61:39saying, remember modest is hottest, which two comments I would add one brings it all back around

61:47to say, remember women, you still only have value in public, um, as a sexual object. Right. And two,

61:56if modest is hottest, isn't that going to drive more men to lust after? Right. Yeah. Exactly. Isn't

62:04this kind of self-defeating modesty? Oh darn. Because if somebody's going to get extra aroused

62:11by modesty, then, you know, they're stumbling. And that's all your fault for dressing, dressing

62:17modestly. There is literally no good reason to every other than the pleasant rhyme of the thing.

62:23Yeah. That's a, that's a terrible phrase to use. Yeah. It's, uh, thoughtless, thoughtless rhetoric

62:31from, uh, uh, from the male gays. Right. Yep. All right. Well, uh, I, that, I'm, I'm again,

62:40mystified and, uh, and, but pleasantly relieved to find out that, uh, all of this, you have to cover

62:48up stuff. They're just making up. It's not biblical. Uh, so, so ladies, get out there and, and

62:56horrify some, some fragile men if you want to. That's, that's, that's, that's their problem if

63:02they have an issue with it. Yeah. Well, if you would like to, uh, write into us and tell us

63:09how wrong we are about all of this, please feel free to do so contact at data over dogma pod.com

63:16is the, uh, email address. If you would like to support this show, get early access to every

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63:37Uh, other than that, thanks for tuning in. We'll talk to you again next week. Bye everybody.

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