Ep 40: The Joel McHale Episode!

00:00It's got to be demoralizing for his other prophets.

00:04For him to be like, "You all suck, I'm going to go visit an illegal necromancer to find

00:09my dead prophet."

00:10Yeah, exactly.

00:12Hey everybody, I'm Dan McClellan.

00:17And I'm Dan Beacher.

00:18And you are listening to the Data Overdogma podcast where we increase public access to

00:23the academic study of the Bible and religion and combat the spread of misinformation about

00:27the same.

00:29How are things, Dan?

00:30Oh, man.

00:31You know, here's the thing.

00:32We're both sick.

00:33You and I, in the interview that we're about to play, you're even sicker than you are now.

00:40We recorded that a little while ago.

00:42You have not yet fully recovered from that sickness.

00:45I'm starting a new sickness.

00:48I'm pretty sure that you gave it to me over the internet.

00:52Yeah, so I'm coming up the 18 fairway, so I'm getting there, but yeah, I'm still not

00:57back to 100%, but yeah, this was almost, what was this, three weeks ago that we recorded

01:02this interview.

01:03Oh my gosh.

01:04Don't tell the people how long it's been.

01:07Anyway, coming up is a really cool interview.

01:12Those of you who followed Dan's, you know, all of his social media and whatever, know

01:16that we, we teased a celebrity guest on the show.

01:22This is that show, Joel McHale, star of stage and screen.

01:26I don't know if he's ever done stage work.

01:27I assume he's done stage time.

01:30He likes to screen anyway stuff.

01:32Yeah.

01:33He is, he is going to be appearing on the show for the first half of the show.

01:38That's really cool.

01:39We had a really fun conversation with him.

01:41Our patrons get to hear even more of him in the patrons only stuff.

01:47So that's kind of cool.

01:48So you can sign up for that if you want to hear that stuff.

01:52And then after that, we're going to do a chapter and verse.

01:56Yeah.

01:57So most of the interview was totally unusable.

01:59It was just a train wreck.

02:01So,

02:02I wasn't going to say it.

02:05It was a lot of, it was, there's a lot of energy.

02:09Yeah.

02:10We had a great time.

02:11Don't get me wrong.

02:12Yeah.

02:13It was actually a lot of fun.

02:14And you guys are going to have a lot of fun listening to it.

02:15But we also wanted to get some Bible content in the episode.

02:18I want to make sure those of you who don't like fun, but like the scholarship are getting,

02:25are getting yours too.

02:26So we talked a little bit in the interview with Joel about the famous story of the Necromancer

02:33of Endor.

02:34And so the chapter and verse.

02:36It's about an Ewok witch, you guys.

02:38Right.

02:39There is literally an Ewok in the Bible, you're going to have to stay tuned through the whole

02:43episode to find out about it.

02:45And this was not written until after the second episode of Star Trek, right?

02:51That's right.

02:52That's what I'm talking about.

02:53Well, Star Trek, that's the second episode of, you just blew a lot of people's brains

02:59out of this.

03:00I'm playing.

03:01I'm totally playing.

03:02But yeah, we're going to talk about first Samuel chapter 28 and the Necromancer of Endor

03:08and go on a deep dive about what's going on in that chapter because it's so fascinating.

03:13Yeah.

03:14It's a really, really interesting story.

03:17And Joel's in it.

03:18This is going to be a fun episode.

03:21I think we should just launch into the, to the interview.

03:24All right.

03:25Let's see it.

03:26For once we have an interesting show for you today.

03:28Yeah, we've, we've avoided it for so many episodes, but we had to be interesting at

03:34least once.

03:35It's no longer a sleep meditation app.

03:39Not anymore.

03:40We're welcoming a special guest, the, it's a celebrity guest, even more than Bart Ehrman,

03:47I think, welcome Joel McHale.

03:51Thank you.

03:52It's great to be here.

03:53I'm very excited to be here.

03:54I'm not joking as Dan McClellan knows the very fond of all the, all the Instagram posts.

04:04And I just love the stuff you guys do because, you know, as a man of faith, as a man of

04:10a cloth, as I am, it can be a pretty turbulent and crazy, crazy time out there in America.

04:17So Joel, you are, you're, you're, you're known as a Jeff Winger on the hit sitcom community.

04:24You came rocketing into my consciousness way back in the early aughts by being mean to

04:29reality show stars on the soup, you've hosted game shows, you'd done a bunch of fun voice

04:37over stuff for cartoons, and I think video games, question mark, is that the thing you've

04:43done?

04:44You're doing a job of reading my Wikipedia and listen, some of the current projects should

04:51be brought up to.

04:53I'm getting there.

04:54I'm building.

04:55I'm building.

04:56You know what?

04:57I'm trying to.

04:58I don't know what Fortnite is.

04:59I don't, I just don't know what Fortnite is.

05:02Can we be a little bit generous with an old guy?

05:04Gosh.

05:05Fortnite.

05:06Look, Epic Games is in Utah and faced in Utah.

05:09My words.

05:11Well, Dan is barely based in Utah, but, and you're the, you're the scientist, right?

05:17I am the scientist on Fortnite.

05:20Thank you, Dan McClellan.

05:21That's a point for you.

05:23I feel bad for the people that tuned in to hear about the Bible and they're like, Hey,

05:31the hell is going here?

05:33Yeah.

05:34Yeah.

05:35Dan mentioned something to me earlier and I don't know if I knew this or forgot about

05:38it or what, but you were not born in, in the United States of America.

05:41Is that correct?

05:42No, I was born in Narnia.

05:43Thank you.

05:44And Narnia.

05:45Well done.

05:46And I wanted to.

05:47No, I was born in Italy and here's the, uh, I was born in Rome and I'm not kidding when

05:54I say this, I, uh, which makes me holier than either of you.

05:58I was baptized at the Vatican.

06:01At the Vatican.

06:02Yeah.

06:03That's, that's a fancy Catholic and right there that's, yeah, they took Jesus off the

06:08P.A.

06:09Todd.

06:10They put me before holy water on me and then reattach Jesus.

06:14It was, yeah, it was, uh, why not?

06:19If you're in Italy, why not, right?

06:21I had a homeless guy pour his water on me in Italy and in the Vatican.

06:25Does that count?

06:26Is that the same thing?

06:27I think that was Jesus.

06:29Okay.

06:30See?

06:31Yeah.

06:32If you, um, if you go to, uh, Capernaum, uh, on the Northwest shore of the Sea of Galilee,

06:38there's a, uh, there's a statue of a homeless man laying on a bench covered in, in a shroud

06:45right outside the front entrance.

06:47And if you look closely, you'll see nail marks in the feet and in the hands.

06:51So representative of Jesus as, um, Yawn homeless man.

06:58So, uh, right now, yeah, I assume that that was, that was something that was a pretty brief

07:02stay in Rome.

07:03You didn't grow up there.

07:04No, it was only there for three years of my life.

07:09Uh, and then my parents moved to Seattle, which at that point, uh, literally there was billboards

07:16that said with the last person in C, it was so depressed.

07:18It said the last person in Seattle, please turn the lights off.

07:22It was, it was the, it was the OPEC crisis.

07:27So Boeing was, uh, slowing down the, uh, for timber industry was slowing down.

07:34And that's, I was the major industries in Seattle.

07:37So you could, you could, and then then now, you know, then all of a sudden the nineties

07:43hit in late eighties and we became the coolest place on earth.

07:46And I just assumed that's how it would happen with every city.

07:49And I was like, everything just gets better.

07:52Everything's cooler.

07:53It's Microsoft and Amazon just show up and then start everything.

07:58Everyone likes your stuff.

07:59And then I'm my friend, my, my friend Gillian was like, I was raised in Pittsburgh.

08:04I'm like, Oh, where they say bagel, right?

08:10Um, bagel and so, uh, Gillian Jacobs, one of my favorite people on the planet played

08:15Brida on community, um, I did want to ask you, since this is a Bible podcast, what?

08:21Tell us about your background with the Bible.

08:23You told, you told us about, I assume you're Catholic.

08:26If you were, if you were baptized in the Vatican or at least we're Catholic.

08:31Well, yes.

08:32I was raised Catholic in Catholic schools and an altar boy.

08:36And then, uh, about which we have no further questions just so that you know, no, no, my

08:42mommy and dad were so proud because we would serve mass and it was both my brothers and

08:46I, we'd be doing the mass together and my mom would be like, leap out of the pew and

08:51start taking photos with an icon and, uh, she was so happy, uh, but, um, yeah, then I had

08:59like a conversion experience when I was about 17 at a young life camp, uh, and, uh, that's

09:07you know, that, that, that was kind of the, you know, like, uh, traditional, uh, not tradition.

09:13I guess it is traditional where they say you have to give your life and all that.

09:18And, uh, yeah, and I definitely convert, I don't know what it was converting to, but

09:23I was in and, uh, uh, and so then I went to a, uh, I went to a, let's say, well, I'm

09:30going to, I guess a Methodist church now and, uh, I went to a, uh, well, my brother is an

09:35Episcopal priest. I'll just start just, uh, uh, then I, the Presbyterian, I was part,

09:39uh, very Presbyterian for a while. This sounds, but not, I've never, I couldn't

09:44ever go to a mega church because it, they freaked me out. There's no, I love it. I love

09:50it. I think, I mean, that's obviously like, if you're into Dan's work, if you're into

09:55our work, uh, then it's, it, you know, there's two camps of people. There's, there's the

10:02hardcore atheists who are just like trying to understand the, the book from, uh,

10:06from a different perspective. And then there are believers like you who are,

10:09who are interested in hearing the Bible as they've never heard it before. Did you ever

10:14read the Bible? Did, was that ever, did you ever like try to dive into it, cover to cover?

10:18Oh, Dan, I can't read. Uh, that's my problem. I am very dyslexic. So, uh, when I remember

10:26the Simpsons episode where, uh, Homer thought he was dying from the piece of sushi that day,

10:32and he decided, yeah, he only had the Bible on tape read by Larry King. And, uh, it was

10:38so funny. Um, I don't know. I, so I've never actually like sat down and read it. Uh, I did

10:47read numbers over and over again, because that's, that's a good stuff right there. Uh,

10:53but I did say to Dan, cause I'm always right on the verge of atheism.

10:57It's for me, it's either you believe it or just, uh, just, it's not, it doesn't exist. Uh, so I'm

11:05always like one step away from that. But, uh, that's why when I started following Dan on Instagram,

11:12I was like, Oh, this is what I, uh, needed to hear. And, uh, and then why we, I grew up with

11:19this kind of like, I used to take this, it wasn't, it was a group of us in college that would, um,

11:26listen to music. And the guy that led it was a, uh, a scientist at the University of Washington.

11:32And it was like, uh, it was kind of like a, it wasn't a Bible study, but it was like a,

11:37a bunch of people that kind of had the same faith. And we would just listen to, we'd break down songs

11:42and listen to him. So his science, like he was very, he was great because he was like,

11:47Bible is not a science book. And, uh, I know it was like, yeah, it's right. And, uh, that's,

11:52so that's just one small, his name is Dr. John Nadine and is to look him up. He's got a bunch

11:56of books out. He's, he's really, uh, and his wife car is incredible people. So anyway, um, that all

12:04said, uh, so, uh, that's kind of how it stayed. And, uh, uh, and then, you know, watching Dan

12:12break it down because I feel like American Christianity is, uh, pretty screwed up because it's very

12:18American. And so it dans way of breaking it down, which is data, uh, which is great, which is like,

12:24Dan points out all the times. I was like, well, this doesn't really make any sense, but this is

12:27exactly what it said. And, uh, so, uh, and then this other stuff makes so much more sense when,

12:33when Dan has broken it down. So, uh, it's just, yeah, kind of a revelatory. So when I went down,

12:39when I had dinner with Dan and Salt Lake, uh, and his lovely wife, I was very star struck. It was

12:45great. And Dan had no idea, but, uh, it was super fun. Oh, and I was going to ask you just,

12:50every time I talk to you when you're flying in and out of somewhere, are you like,

12:54do you try to get flights that get in at 1130 at night? Is that just? Oh, I take the very

13:00earliest flight or the last flight. If I, I, it's the shortest amount of time when I need to be,

13:07I can be a, you know, go be away from my family. So it's, I always, uh, sacrifice my sleep for that,

13:14but, uh, yeah, I always take the very last flight, even if I'm working all day, but I never would

13:20wait another, I wouldn't sleep and then get up and go. And I'd say that sounds insane.

13:25Would tell it fair enough. How big is your family? You, who do you got? You got kids, I assume?

13:32I got two boys, uh, 18 and 15. Uh, what do you got? I got nothing. I'm not, I'm not, I'm a,

13:41I'm a free bird. I like, I like to, I like to travel light. That's, uh, yeah, you saved a lot of money,

13:46dude. Well, I, I do want to ask you, uh, some, one of the things, so we put out a call for

13:56questions for you, Joel, uh, on our various TikTok accounts and whatnot. Uh, and we, we had some

14:03response. So I, I was curious, one, so one of our TikTok, uh, listeners, uh, uh, viewers,

14:12whatever, uh, asked curious how you see the Bible used behind the scenes in the movie slash tv

14:20industry. And I don't know what that means necessarily, but I, I, I am curious about like,

14:26you hear a lot of, uh, I'm not going to name actors, but a lot of actors who are pretty hardcore

14:32Christians complaining that, that they're not allowed to talk about their faith and that they,

14:38uh, that, that, you know, faith thinking of Kevin Sorbo. Yeah, I'm, I, I'm not naming anybody,

14:46but there's a lot of, uh, it's a, it's a pretty loaded, that question, and that, not that the

14:55TikTok user wanted to add, add, ask a loaded question, but, uh, the, the stereotype is that, um,

15:03Hollywood is a godless, lawless, brothel. Uh, and it's ironic, uh, since, you know,

15:11Los Angeles is the birthplace of, uh, many things, including neo conservatism and mega church,

15:18mega church has started here in the 1930s. So, uh, but it was also the birthplace of JPL and 1,000

15:25other things, uh, that all started here. And, uh, so 90, I'm gonna say that 99% of, well, I want,

15:34when it was like, it's the law, like this industry that it's godless. And I was like, so, um,

15:40doctors and lawyers, their industries are super, uh, clean and like they're, they're just the

15:46epitome of, uh, you know, virtue and righteousness or, you know, whatever it is. I'm always like,

15:54yeah, whatever. It's the same, it's just the same as everywhere else where there's some really great

15:59people. Most of the time they're decent people. Uh, everyone's working their butts off here. And

16:04then there's really awful people. And it's funny because the awful people of that eventually gets

16:10around and then they eventually get kind of pushed out. Uh, thank god. Uh, but it is the only industry

16:15where you can fail upwards and most of those are executives. But, uh, I, I suppose you can do that

16:21in most churches too. Uh, but when I hear just like, I always see this common complaint, like,

16:30I can't talk about my faith that I'm talking about right now in this interview, that would

16:35be broadcast. And I think it's more, that comes down to more political persuasion, uh, than it does

16:42to faith. Cause, uh, you know, I mean, yeah, there's a, you look at, uh, you know, overhead map of, uh,

16:52Southern California, there's churches everywhere and there's, yeah, synagogues everywhere and there's

16:57mosques everywhere. And, uh, and so, uh, I, I don't, I never thought it was something to hide. And, uh,

17:07and it's, uh, in, so yeah, I mean, it's Hollywood is littered with people that, you know, go to

17:14church. And I'm guessing the percentage has to be the same of, you know, people that believe in

17:20practice. Anyway, um, that, that's a very long answer for, I don't think it's a problem.

17:26I love that. I love it because you're right. There is a, there's a huge stereotype that,

17:32you know, it, at least, and I hear this a lot among like, you know, people, people promoting

17:39Christian movies that Hollywood would never, Hollywood just kicks you out immediately if they

17:45find out you believe in God and you have to swear to become an atheist if you're going to get cast

17:50in anything. I don't, it's in nuts to me that, I mean, that when I hear that, I'm like, I, I don't

17:58know where the anti, uh, I don't know the anti faith police are touring around, uh, Hollywood

18:05search. It's, it, I, they just haven't gotten to yet Joel. Yeah. They're, they're on the other

18:10side of my fence. Thank God it's electrified. But, uh, you know, like, I don't think the same type,

18:17uh, again, I think it comes down to political persuasion probably because like a movie like,

18:22uh, student serandons performance in, uh, dead man walking is pretty incredible and also pretty, uh,

18:32true to how a lot of people, uh, see their faith as, as Catholics. And I was like, yeah, that's,

18:39I mean, and that, you know, that didn't seem to be a problem. I think like all inner, like,

18:44most entertainment, it is very fragmented. And now you can watch, you know, like, it's so

18:51dispersed that, uh, you can watch exactly what you want to watch. And, uh, and so, yeah, I, I mean,

18:58when I hear people complain about, you know, like, I can't say what I want to say. Now, anyway,

19:03this is my fourth Lamborghini that I bought. Yeah.

19:07Were there ever discussions about religion, uh, you know, backstage in your shows? You know,

19:17between takes, did you and your cast, fellow cast members talk about that sort of stuff?

19:22They like, and cut. And another thing, this three person god thing that,

19:27well, like any, don't get me started on the Trinity, like any, um, like any conversations

19:36that happen anywhere, I would say, in any business, if you are close to people, you

19:41end up talking about those things. So of course, yes, I don't know. Do you guys sit around and

19:47in religious groups and talk about, uh, movies and television?

19:51Yes, I do, but mainly because I'm a nerd. So, uh, we, we just got back, uh, from a, um,

20:01a biblical studies conference actually. And yeah, I hang out with the other, um, religious

20:06studies and Bible scholar nerds. And we mainly talk about pop culture and movies and, and our,

20:12our scholarship, uh, a little bit as well. But, uh, well, there you go. And you're like, did you think

20:17that Ben Affleck's Daredevil was, uh, you know, was bad points. That was. Look, um, they, uh,

20:26now you're hitting this home for Dan. Well, you know, there's, and, and there are, uh,

20:34I have friends who deal with the intersection of, uh, like sci-fi and pop culture and religion,

20:40uh, and comic books and religion and things like that. So there's, there's actual research that,

20:44it goes on on, uh, regarding that kind of stuff. And the new, uh, the, the Daredevil series, I thought

20:50did a great job of incorporating, um, contemplation about religion. Uh, I thought it was, uh, it was

20:57phenomenal and I was very upset that it got canceled. And I am very much looking forward to, um,

21:03whatever this resurrected, uh, series is going to be, um, can I ask you some more questions from our,

21:09our TikTok people? Yes. So, uh, April's, April's Lily, uh, on TikTok asks,

21:17do you have a favorite Bible story or stories? Um, I think, well, I guess the story, when Jesus is

21:25hanging on the cross there with the, uh, thieves and the one thief starts like giving him shit.

21:31He didn't go away. The other guy, you didn't go away. And Jesus is like, yeah, yeah, well,

21:38don't worry. We're going on a trip. You'll see. And, uh, I was like that cause I always kind of

21:43felt like one of the thieves. And so I was, which I had, which day are you that guy that's heckling

21:49people or the guy that's like, stop giving him a hard time. And, uh, I thought that I always like

21:54that one. Um, and then of course, I just read revelation every night cause it's, it's really,

22:01it reminds me of some of the, you know, like a really good grateful dead concert.

22:07Yeah. Don't know what happened, but it's fun. It's comforting is what it is. It's a, it's a good

22:13nighttime story. It's like a doll painting. Very, very topical. Yeah. No, I don't, I don't know. Um,

22:23uh, yeah, I mean, yeah, I, no, I guess, yeah, those are dead. Yeah, that's my answer. Thank you,

22:30Lily's Lily. April's Lily. Yes. Uh, and then coach cranes. Are you ready? I can ask.

22:37Wait, hold on. Yeah. You asked because the way they divide up the verses in the Bible,

22:42like some of the new Testament stuff, I was like, okay, that makes sense.

22:46They stopped there. And then they picked up with that. And then other times I'm just like,

22:50what, who numbered this thing? Yeah. And yeah, it's, yeah. So, uh, 1551 and his name was Robert

22:59Astian, uh, also goes by Stefanus. Uh, so the textus receptus was a, a Greek edition of the New

23:07Testament, uh, that originally was created by Desiderius Erasmus and, uh, didn't have

23:13versification for the New Testament. And then in 1551, the edition that Stefanus produced was the

23:18first one to introduce versification, totally arbitrary, just like here, here, here, here, here.

23:24And, uh, and since then, that's what the King James version was based on. And, um, everything

23:30since then has had verses. Now that I know it, see, I don't even know that. And I'm just like,

23:35some dude, some dude just in summer. And, um, but it's so, uh, it's become so embedded in the

23:40tradition that, you know, now we have earlier manuscripts, we know that there are about 16

23:45verses in the New Testament, at least the traditional New Testament that we know we're

23:49not a part of the earliest manuscripts. And so we take them out, but we don't re-versify the,

23:55the chapters. It just, the verses will just go 17, 18, 19, 20, 22, 23, 20, and, uh, when people

24:02stumble across that, they get really confused and really upset. Um, so I do like, and then they

24:10make a video that Dan has to respond to that says something like, ah, there's a conspiracy.

24:15They're eliminating numbers. There's, there's, there are their whole verses that are disappearing.

24:20I can't imagine the people who can't direct message you in what they're saying. I can't imagine.

24:27People give me crap for like, how come you didn't like that angel who take and, uh,

24:33can't believe what you must do. I do like how the, the Torah, they had the two books, right? On the

24:42same page, somewhat, they often contradict each other. And I was just like, that's, that's, that's,

24:49that seems about right. Yeah. Yeah. Frequently contradict each other. When you have, um, dozens

24:55and dozens of people writing stories, um, over the period of almost a thousand years, they're gonna

25:02disagree. And, um, it's a lot easier to enjoy the Bible and to make sense of it when you can

25:09acknowledge that. When you've got to go to work to try to make this all agree and harmonize everything,

25:15that just makes the Bible become, well, I think growing up is like, well, you know, God breathed.

25:20Oh, yeah. Really? Okay. And I remember going like, yeah, we can't argue with that, right? I mean,

25:27we can't. I mean, there's literally, there's no way you can argue with that.

25:29And I was just like, come on. It was, yeah. All right. Another TikTok.

25:36Oh, man. Uh, you know, we, we had some that were, that were more addressed to, uh, to Dan, but also

25:43like, we'll just throw it to the ground. Yeah. We're gonna. So somebody was somebody asked,

25:50witchcraft, necromancy. Is it okay if it's for God? Why the heck would, uh, would any deity need a

25:57witch's skills? I think this is probably a reference to, or, or could be a reference to, uh,

26:03to first Samuel, Dan, and the, uh, the witch of Endor, which I always thought was a Star Wars.

26:09So, um,

26:10So a witch on Endor that exploded? Yeah. Yeah. You didn't, she was in the woods. It was kind of a

26:16Blair witch setup. She had, um, just on that note. And your death star just hovered above it.

26:21She had you walk friends. It was delightful.

26:27But yeah, Endor is, uh, is the name of a place in, uh, in Southwest Asia. I think that's probably

26:34where they got the name of that planet from, but, uh, we have this story in first Samuel 28 about the,

26:38uh, the necromancer of Endor, uh, and the, uh, the title is people call her witch, but the title is,

26:48is, uh, a lot of, which literally means mistress of ghosts and mistress in the sense of master,

26:56not in the sense of like the feminine form of master. Uh, and yeah, Saul can't seem to, um,

27:05get access to counsel from God, direction from God. And he's outlawed, uh, necromancy, uh, everywhere,

27:13but goes in disguise to this necromancer to go see if he can, uh, get information on whether or not

27:21he should go to battle the next day. And so the witch, uh, is able to conjure up, uh, the deceased

27:28prophet Samuel. And it says, uh, she says, I see gods coming up from the underworld. And Saul says,

27:36what's, describe them to me. And she describes the prophet Samuel. And then Samuel tells Saul,

27:41you've been a bad boy. Uh, you're going to go up to battle and you're going to die. And, uh,

27:47and that's what happens. And so it's, it's a fun story because, uh, you have Saul going to

27:53a necromancer and then it works. And, uh, and Samuel wasn't actually there. She just said,

28:01here's what he told me. Uh, well, this, the narrative tells it, um, as if this is, uh,

28:07what actually happened. So it's representing it that way. And then Samuel is, is, um, chewing

28:13Saul out, uh, through the medium of the necromancer. But Samuel was dead, right?

28:19So yeah, Samuel's dead. I mean, for necromancy to work, someone has to be dead, right? Yeah,

28:25that's the, the word necro. Um, wait, did you just see this question or did you see it? Did you

28:32answer? I get asked this kind of question a lot. Um, and, and I actually, and that's, I have, I have

28:39a few pages of discussion in my book on this. So, so this is something real witchcraft that you

28:44could just pull that answer out like that. I was just like, how, what? I can't even, I can't even

28:49tell you what I did a two days ago. And it's. To further answer the question, yeah, which craft

28:59is just, uh, you know, divine agency. I don't like, uh, like the same processes, the same tools,

29:06the same media that a prophet uses are the same that, um, a, a necromancer, a witch would use only

29:14instead of seeking out the guidance of the deity. You're seeking out the guidance of a deceased

29:18person. And an anciently, a deceased person was a deity. So it's really saying, uh, you're doing

29:26this, uh, you're approaching the wrong person. And this is part of God's jealousy. You don't go

29:30seeking after information from the gods of other nations from the ancestors. You only come to me.

29:36So that's why it's considered a problem. So the line between magic and prophecy is an artificial

29:44one that people draw only when they're trying to structure power and say, we're the only ones

29:49who are allowed to do this because we're doing it with the appropriate agent. And so everybody else,

29:54you're not allowed to do it. But if a witch, uh, you know, sinks, then they're not a witch, right?

30:02Right. If she floats, she's made of wood. And there's a movie called seven sovereigns for Sarah,

30:12I think it was called about the witch trials. And, uh, they were like, well, if you can get

30:18through the Lord's prayer without stuttering, then we won't kill you. Yeah, that's the, uh,

30:26there's a long history of ordeals and there's been some cool scholarship on, on the use of the

30:31ordeal where, you know, it would be everything from, we'll throw you in the river. And if you die,

30:36you are innocent. But if you survive, then you're guilty. So we're going to kill you.

30:39Right. Um, uh, but most of the ordeals, it was, the idea was we're going to threaten you with a

30:45bad time. God is going to punish you if you lie. And then the hope is that that fear of God will

30:53compel them to be, uh, honest and admit whatever. And, um, yeah, I'm like someone going like, well,

30:59we're going to shoot a half to every five minutes. We have no choice. I mean, it's up to you if you

31:05want to. Oh gosh. Yeah. The, the ordeal is, is, uh, has such an interesting history. Yeah.

31:12And not, not a great history. It's not, it's not, no, not a good thing that happened.

31:17I would like to cheers. I mean, this is how happy was every fantasy writer when the word

31:22necromancy start where they were like, wait, you use that? Oh, that's going to be an every book.

31:27The Necronomicon. That's the, uh, that's one of the greatest words. Yeah.

31:34All right. You know what I'm going to do is I am going to say that we are going to take the rest

31:41of this conversation, uh, and throw it into, we're going to keep talking with Joel McHale,

31:47but we're going to check it into the, uh, the patrons only stuff, uh, Joel McHale. Thank you

31:52so much. People will be left. It'll probably be like, I wonder who's going to stay around.

31:58It's just going to be the elites. It'll, it'll be in use. Patreon. The pay. That's right. That's

32:05right. Uh, for the rest of you, thank you so much for, uh, for, for listening. Joel, thank you so

32:10much for joining us on the show. We really appreciate that. And, uh, thanks for making it just

32:16whoever hung in there. And, uh, I can't stop talking. Please forget.

32:20Well, let's get into our second segment, uh, our chapter and verse and, uh, and what I have only

32:32known as the witch of Endor. It's going to, I feel like there should be like a swoosh, a musical,

32:39something or other about it. Yeah. I think it's, it's a shame that we don't have some kind of, uh,

32:46certainly there's got to be some kind of cinematic interpretation of this story.

32:49We, I don't think we've seen this in, uh, in any movies. It's not in the tent. No,

32:53because it's kind of crazy. Like it's, it's a, it's a weird story. If I were trying to make a

33:00movie of it or something, I wouldn't know what to do with it, but I wouldn't know what to do with it.

33:04I mean, you know, you, every time you watch anything, uh, any movie or, or, uh, retelling

33:11of a Bible story, they don't know what to do with it. Yeah. You're, you're always like,

33:14what are they going to include? Oh, I'm excited because like they totally made that up. Well,

33:19they kind of have to. Yeah, exactly. I don't really have a choice. So, uh, so we're in, uh,

33:24the book of first Samuel, uh, toward the end of it, we're in chapter 28, uh, and we are dealing with

33:31Saul is still the king. David has run off and he is hanging out with the Philistines

33:38of all people. How dare he? Yeah. It's just, it's just, he's betrayed his tribe.

33:44And there's a, there's an argument to make that this kind of warlord mercenary, uh, origin story

33:52may have some truth to it that maybe David was really a warlord who kind of took over

33:59down in, in the kingdom of Judah, uh, conquered Jerusalem, took over and then made his way into,

34:06uh, proclaiming himself king and, uh, starting up this chieftain slash kingdom, uh, in the south. So,

34:15yeah, we may have to have his whole show about the historicity of David. We're going to have to do

34:19that at some point, definitely. But, uh, when we move into chapter 28, we have, uh, the Philistines

34:26gathering their forces to war. And Akish, uh, or Akish, uh, is David's master, uh, leader ruler,

34:36David's just kind of serving under him. Um, and, uh, they're ready to go to battle. And then we cut

34:43into verse three, which is a segment that runs from verse three to the end of chapter 28. And,

34:48and just real quick, just so you know, chapter 29 and 30 have nothing to do with, uh, what's going

34:55on in the Saul story. It's, uh, these are two different stories. And you can tell things have

35:00been edited together here because it's a little confusing to read. Yeah. Because you got, um,

35:07Akish and David getting ready to battle. And then it says, so the Philistines gathered, uh, to for

35:14battle at Gilboa. And that's where Saul isn't, uh, in the story. And then it says, now the Philistines

35:21gathered all their forces at affect. And then we've got these other battles that have nothing to do

35:27with Saul. And then it says, so Saul went up to battle against the Philistines at Gilboa

35:33at the very, the very last chapter of, uh, of first Samuel. And so more than likely we are

35:40seeing different stories stitched together. Um, so that's how we can most easily, uh,

35:47Occam's razor is going to tell us these come from originally distinct, uh, stories and they've

35:53been stitched together. But, uh, first Samuel 28 verse three through 25 is a single sense unit.

36:01It's a single story. And this is where Samuel has died. Um, all of Israel has mourned and Saul

36:10has expelled the mediums and the wizards from the land. Let's talk about Samuel and Saul, by the way.

36:16So we know that Saul was the king. Samuel was like a prophet, right, like advisor to the king guy.

36:22Yes. So in this time period, prophets primarily were like court prophets. The king just had a, a

36:30retinue of, uh, of prophets who had different specializations. And if he was like, uh, you know,

36:37I think I want to go to war. Uh, what does God say? And the prophets would push their glasses up on

36:43their nose and they would go off with their calculators and everything. And they would come back and

36:47say favorable or unfavorable or something like that. Mercury's retrograde. I don't think it's a

36:52great idea. Or he would say, I think I'll have the fish and they would go off and they'll say,

36:57yeah. Um, and as everyone knows from the movie, airplane, fish is a bad choice. It's a bad choice.

37:02Yeah. Uh, milk also a bad choice. Um, so, uh, the, the mediums and the wizards

37:12are also doing the same kind of stuff. It's still divinization or divination. Uh, it is still trying

37:19to divine the will of the gods or the universe or whatever, using different instruments and

37:26different means and techniques and things like that. And so the difference between a prophet and a

37:33witch, a medium, a wizard, all these kinds of things usually has to do with who's on the other

37:38end of the line. Uh, and it's either you got a, an acceptable entity on the other end of the line,

37:45or you got, uh, a bad entity on the other end of the line. And therefore what you're doing is

37:49outlawed. Right. And sometimes even if it is an acceptable entity on the other end of the line,

37:54if you're not a part of the acceptable group, if you don't have the authority and the authority was

37:59basically the people who are on my side have the authority, anyone who's not on my side,

38:04even if they're still working for the God of Israel, that's a big no, no. So they get dismissed as,

38:10as wizards and magicians and, and all these other things.

38:14So anyway, Saul has, as outlawed all of this and the Philistines are coming up to, uh, to battle,

38:26go and debate me. Um, and Saul goes to his, uh, his court profits. Samuel's not there, but he's

38:36got other folks that he's going to go consult. Uh, and it says here in verse six, when Saul

38:41inquired of Adonai, Adonai did not answer him, not by dreams or by Urim or by prophets. So the idea

38:50being, um, dreams were one way that God could communicate their will to folks, Urim. This is the

38:56Urim and Tumim. Uh, Latter-day Saints are going to be familiar with this term. Urim and Thummim

39:01is how it is also pronounced. Uh, these are two, uh, objects of some kind, probably stones of some

39:08kind that were a divinization. I keep saying divinization are a divination tool, a means of

39:15trying to divine, um, the will of God or by prophets cause he's got, you know, however many

39:21hundred prophets. It's a secret Dakota ring. Yeah. And you know what, there were all kinds of

39:26different ways that you could do this. Casting lots is divination. Um, you see that in the Hebrew

39:32Bible, you see it in the New Testament. That's how they pick. As a matter of fact, doesn't Saul's

39:36story start with casting lots to see or with some sort of, uh, of a game of chance almost to see you

39:42go speaking. Kinda. It's, um, it has to do with, uh, Samuel is, as God is telling him, like,

39:50you know, you're going to see this, that and the other. And, and this is how you'll know that this

39:55is the right one. So it is kind of a sign that, that Samuel is going to get. Um, he rolls double

40:01sixes. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and in all the stories, yeah, in all the stories, it starts out as a,

40:09as a nat 20. It's like, look at this one. And God's like, he's the one. He's the one. And then, um,

40:16before too long, he's not the one. Um, so Saul needs to know, what am I going to do? And so he

40:26says to his servants, uh, seek out for me a woman who is a, uh, a medium or a necromancer. And, um,

40:36I just want to, the very thing that he banished, the very thing that he banned. Right. And

40:40that's because these things work. Um, but he's, he probably figures, uh, well, the, the first thing

40:50to note here is that a necromancer is somebody who tries to communicate with the dead. There was a

40:56very active cult of the dead in ancient Israel and probably a wonderful book from just a couple

41:03years ago by a scholar named Kerry Sonja. It's called, um, caring for the dead in ancient Israel,

41:08talks about necromancy, talks about the cult of the dead. But basically everybody believed that

41:13the dead were still around in some sense. And when people died, you, you put them in, um,

41:19you buried them in a mortuary chapel where you would set up like a standing stone or something

41:24and you would go have meals there and you would go consult with the deceased. You could ask for

41:31blessings and things like that. So, um, and, and, you know, what we do in cemeteries today, go and

41:37talk to headstones and things like that. Very, very similar things going on. Um, so the idea that, um,

41:45you could consult with the dead was normative up until, um, I would argue, uh, the reign of Josiah.

41:52I think Josiah is probably the king who tries to put a stop to this. Um,

41:57so the fact that other than Saul trying to put a stop to it. Well, that's what, and then participating

42:02in it. Like, that's what I was going to, that's what I was going to point out. This story was written

42:07afterwards, but it's about a time that's way before. And so if this is, if there is a social

42:14memory from, from centuries before about Saul visiting an necromancer, it wouldn't, there wouldn't

42:20have been an issue, but writing about it later, they were like, now, Saul had, you know, outlawed

42:27all these people. And then he goes to visit one. Come on. What's going on here? But the idea of the

42:31king going to visit a necromancer, not really, uh, wouldn't really have been that unusual or

42:36surprising in the periods before the seventh century BCE. And so, uh, the necromancer, and here I

42:42want to, I want to plug a book real quick by, uh, a scholar that you and I have both spoken with,

42:47Esther Hamori, uh, and the book is called women's divination in biblical literature,

42:53prophecy, necromancy, and other arts of knowledge. Uh, and it's a wonderful book and there's a great

42:58chapter all about, uh, the necromancer of Aendor, and, um, and it starts off talking about what we're

43:06calling this person, um, because colloquially, this is who. Well, the Wikipedia page article

43:14is about the witch of Endor. Right. The witch of Endor, the Hebrew phrase here,

43:22is eshet by a lot of, which means the woman, uh, mistress of oath. And oath is a word for, uh,

43:30ghosts or the deceased or, or something like that. Um, and so the, the woman, the mistress, and this

43:38is mistress in the sense of the feminine version of master. Right. Uh, of, uh, of ghosts. There's a

43:44word for witch. Almost a wife of ghosts. Yeah. Um, like, could, could get to that. That's another

43:51sense. Well, that's, uh, that's not, I don't think that they ever use that, that sense for the

43:57feminine of ball, but the word ball, which means master can also mean husband, but I think we got

44:03to decouple those, those senses. Um, makash. I think it's makashifah is the, the word for

44:10witch. So in Exodus 22, you will not suffer a witch to live. That's, uh, makashifah. You also

44:17have spellcaster, which, uh, I think is haverjo there. Uh, and then you have, um, the ba'alat, uh,

44:26kashafim, which would be the mistress of sorcery or witchcraft or something. By the way, I can just

44:34hear our listeners screaming for the show about all of these different, uh, categories of, of,

44:42of magic users. Yes. It does feel like we're starting a D and D campaign. Yeah. Yeah. What

44:48is your race? What is your class? Um, makashifah. Um, those are the words that are used to describe

44:56a witch. None of those words appear anywhere in this chapter at all because a witch uses, uh,

45:03poisons and, um, potions and cast spells. This person is doing none of that. This person

45:10is consulting the dead. So they are a medium or a necromancer. Right. Um, so colloquially,

45:16people refer to her as a witch and, uh, uh, there is, that is gendered in a lot of ways. This is

45:24who she's, she's a villain. She's a witch. Kill the witch, uh, yeah. So, um, to start off, I want

45:34to make sure that we're referring to her, uh, the correct way. And she's just trying to scratch

45:38out a living. Right. And then, yeah, she's literally just like, uh, she's like a phone operator to the

45:43dead. And she's, and she's got a gift. So she's good at it. She is. She's genuinely amazing at it,

45:51according to the story. And, and so Saul asks the servants. He's like, uh, I need a witch. And

45:56they're like, Oh yeah, there's a witch over here. And it's not like, it's not like, sir, you

46:00outlawed all the witches. We wouldn't know where to find any witches. They're just like, Oh yeah,

46:04we know one. We use a lot of time. She's one guy. One guy didn't speak up. One guy was like,

46:09this is a trick. I know this trick. I'm not going to say anything. So he goes into skies and, um,

46:16you know, lays the money down. And she asks, uh, who do you want me to, uh, bring up? And he says

46:24Samuel. And she's kind of, she, um, there's not a great vibe initially. And she's, she's like, hey,

46:32she's suspicious because yeah, she's doing something illegal. Right. And she says,

46:36Saul has outlawed this. And, and the disguise, Saul says, uh, swears by the name of the God of

46:43Israel that nothing will happen to her. I, why she would be like, Oh, well, I guess it's okay, then,

46:50it feels like one of those, it feels like one of those, if you're a cop, you have to tell me sort

46:55of moments. And, um, and then she, she immediately brings up Samuel. And the text does not say how

47:03and scholars have debated this. And it's just not a part of the story. But somehow she, um,

47:10understands that this is Saul. And now is, um, I'm, I'm picturing the, the scene in, uh, uh, in

47:18Prince of Thieves. The painted man. The winch that you, you just went back hard. Yeah. I, I,

47:26even, I don't remember the Prince of, this is the, uh, the what's his name, Robin Hood. Yeah. Yeah.

47:33Uh, but she gets freaked out. Um, the, the crone and, um, but, uh, um, Saul's not worried about this.

47:43He's like, who did you see? And, um, she says, I see an Elohim coming up from the earth. Oh, okay.

47:50Elohim means God or gods. Um, and there, there is a little question here about whether this is

47:56supposed to be singular or plural because she says, I see Elohim coming up from the earth and the,

48:01the participle is in the plural. But Saul then says, what does he look like? Oh, and, um,

48:08and then the woman says, uh, an old man coming up, he's wearing a robe. And then, um, Saul was like,

48:16Oh, that's Samuel. Obviously old man robe. That's the right guy. There can be only one. Yeah. Old

48:23man in a robe. I love, I also love that he, uh, he doesn't go to a prophet. He goes to

48:31a necromancer to talk to his favorite prophet who was dead. I think that's amazing. Yeah.

48:38That's, uh, it's got to be demoralizing for his other prophets for him to be like, you all

48:43suck. I'm going to go visit an illegal necromancer to find my dead prophet. Um, exactly. And so,

48:50and the first thing, the first thing that Samuel says is basically, you should have let me sleep.

48:55He says, why are you disturbing me? Um, and, and it's such a tantalizing little taste of how they

49:04must have understood the afterlife. In some sense, Samuel is just chilling. Samuel is, um, at rest,

49:11or Samuel is just, uh, enjoying or at least experiencing whatever they conceptualize the afterlife to be

49:18bowling in the great alley beyond or whatever. And, and Saul's got to wrench him up from the,

49:25from the underworld. Uh, and so he's like, what? And, um, he's pissed. And, uh, and so Saul says,

49:35I'm in great distress. And I'm reading here from the NRSVUE, new revised standard version updated

49:40edition. I am in great distress for the Philistines are warring against me and God has turned away

49:45from me and answers me no more either by prophets or by dreams. So I have summoned you to tell me

49:50what I should do. Uh, and, and Samuel's like, look, if God's not responding, she's just not that

49:59into you. Yeah. Um, and he continues, uh, Adonair, the Lord has done to you just as he spoke by me for

50:07the Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David, because you

50:11did not obey the voice of the Lord and did not carry out his fierce wrath against Amalek. Therefore,

50:17the Lord has done this thing to you today. Uh, and then the Lord will give Israel along with you

50:23into the hands of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your son shall be with me.

50:30Wow. That is, that is not the message you want to get when you visit the, the, the necromancer

50:38of Endor. Yeah. Um, now normally something like that happens, most people would be pretty

50:45despondent and probably just run home crying. Um, says immediately, Saul fell full length on the

50:51ground filled with fear because of the words of Samuel and there was no strength in him for he had

50:55eaten nothing all day and all night. Um, and it doesn't say why, but, uh, fasting would have been a

51:03part of many attempts at divination. Like there's one kind of divination called incubation where you

51:10would fast and then you would go spend the night in the temple in the hopes that you would be

51:15visited by the deity, uh, in the night. So Saul is probably fasting in an effort to try to make

51:22thinner the, uh, the barrier that separates the living from the dead. Okay. And then the

51:31necromancer is like, by the way, I'm still here. Um, she says, your servant has listened to you.

51:37I've taken my life in my hand and have listened to what you have said to me now. Therefore,

51:42you also listen to your servant and, and she gets him bread. Um, yeah. So that he can,

51:48she makes him a nice meal. Yeah. And he's like, no, I don't want it. Um, but they urged him. So

51:54he got up from the ground, sat on the bed. Um, and she had a fatted calf in the house. So she slaughtered

52:01it, took flour, needed it and baked unleavened cakes, which is not the fastest way to get

52:07food to a starving guy. It's like, just sit down and three hours, I'll be back. Yeah, exactly.

52:12So, um, and then we go into a chapter 29, the Philistines have rejected David. They're like,

52:21what's this guy doing with us? And, um, and they're like, get him out of here. Uh,

52:25and then it's not until, uh, chapter 31 that we finally get to the battle with the Philistines at

52:30Gilboa. And immediately the Philistines route them. Uh, Saul is injured and, uh, is going to die.

52:38And so he goes to his armor barrow, bearer, excuse me. Uh, and basically says, run me through.

52:43And the armor bar is like, uh, I don't want to. And so he falls on his own sword and then the

52:50armor bar is like, dammit. And so he falls on his own sword. Um, and so things, uh, things don't end

52:58well, uh, for, uh, Saul and the kingdom of Israel, the Philistines have the upper hand. Uh, and this

53:06is, uh, and we talked about this a long time ago and we talked about 2nd Samuel 3 27, where Adonai

53:12promised that, uh, that Moab would be delivered into the hands of the coalition. But here, the

53:20necromancer says that you, uh, that you will, the army of Israel will be given into the hands of the

53:25Philistines. And what does that mean? Total domination, total destruction. The Philistines

53:31route them, um, and take over. So, uh, it is a weird story to set up a tragic ending to the life of

53:41who the guy who was supposed to be the man. Yeah. Um, and a lot of scholars would argue that this

53:48is written much later. And this is an effort to, uh, take some, some vague, spotty social memories

53:56about this king back then and kind of use him to create this narrative about, um, starting off

54:04good, but oh, you did the wrong thing. And so God, um, royally screwed you over.

54:10What? Wait, was the wrong thing visiting the necromancer? What was the wrong thing? No,

54:16Saul was before that. It was before that. Yeah. That's, Saul is visiting the necromancer because

54:21God is, uh, like, not on speaking terms. He's getting the cold shoulder and, um, he's been,

54:28he's been ghosted, uh, holy ghosted. Well, I was, I was going with the necromancer ghosted, but,

54:35yeah, yeah, it's, it's ghosting in all of the best. They're, yeah, they're levels. They're levels

54:39to that. And he had to go to, and, and so some people, um, you know, they're like,

54:46oh, the, um, the necromancer didn't have power. This was just, uh, the Lord working through and,

54:52and allowing this to happen. And I was like, the necromancer makes a living doing this.

54:58Right. Um, it's not like she's like, holy crap, it actually worked for the first time ever.

55:03Um, this is what she did for a living. And, um, and so the fact that Samuel is an actual deceased

55:12person referred to in the text as a deity or a divine being or a God, um, is pretty securely

55:20indicates that in this time period, that was not a bridge too far. That was not unusual. That was

55:27not odd. Yeah. So go visit your mediums. Everybody is totally down with it. Throw a coin to your

55:36necromancer. That's right. Yeah. It's kind of amazing. I, you know, I have seen

55:43videos of pastors and, uh, and ministers decrying this story and saying that it was false. It didn't

55:51really happen this way because that, that stuff isn't real or whatever. And it's just like,

55:56okay, well now you're just denying what happens in your own book. It just sounds very strange.

56:02I just made a video about this. Um, there's been some crazy stuff going on on Twitter lately.

56:07Yeah. And, um, and I've had some people coming after me and some of them, uh, and I know I am

56:14hearing a lot these days that I am denying the word of God. And so the video I made was saying,

56:20everybody denies the word of God. Right. And folks who were like, this story didn't happen.

56:25It's like, you're denying the word of God according to how you usually assert it has to be understood.

56:31So, um, yeah, everybody at some point or another has to say, I don't buy that.

56:36Whether it's here, whether it's the command to sacrifice your firstborn child and next to this

56:4122 29, uh, or all the stories about the numerous gods or second Kings, 327 where the God of Israel

56:48loses everybody at some point is going to say, yeah, I don't buy that. Yeah, it's so funny to me

56:53because there, there is this, this very strong denial that has to happen. If you don't come at

57:00the Bible with from the perspective of this, you know, as you always talk about, it's not

57:06univocal. It wasn't written by God. It was written by people of a time and those people

57:11frequently disagreed with people of another time. And like, and if you can come at it from

57:16that perspective, it's fine. It's all fine. You know, all of it, you don't, you don't have to take

57:24every word of it as literally true. And you couldn't if you wanted to. Yeah. Yeah. It's, uh, at some

57:30point you got to be like, all right, we got to find a different way. We're going to have to read

57:34some stuff into this. And, uh, and as you and I have, I've both talked about before and, and as I

57:39hear in, in messages from people all the time, it gets so much more interesting when you can just

57:46let it be what it wants to be and, and just engage it on its own terms. I think it's so much more

57:52fascinating. And how cool is this story and, and how, uh, interesting where you got the king

57:58visiting somebody's like, I'm out loud and, um, uh, and we're going to pull up Samuel and Samuel's a

58:05God and Samuel says you're, uh, you're going down. So yeah, it's, it's just such a, such a

58:10fascinating story. And I feel bad for people who have to be uncomfortable, uh, who feel uncomfortable

58:17about it and have to find ways to talk around it and, and make excuses for it. Yeah, because it's

58:21so much fun. Yeah. There you go. All right. Well, we're about here. Fun. We're all having fun

58:27here. That's the whole, that's the whole gig. Uh, thank you guys so much for tuning in. If you would

58:33like to, uh, have even more fun, uh, you can go to our Patreon, uh, and become a member there. Uh,

58:42and at the right level, you can have more fun with Joel McHale later, uh, in their bonus episode

58:48there. Uh, and you help out our show and help keep it going. Uh, that's patreon.com/dataoverdogma.

58:55If you'd like to write into us, you can write to us at contact@dataoverdogmapod.com.

59:01And, uh, other than that, we'll see you next week. Bye everybody.

59:06Data Over Dogma is a member of the Airwave Media Podcast Network. It is a production of Data

59:15Over Dogma Media LLC. Copyright 2023. All rights reserved.