Ep 38: The [Three] [Wise Men] With Eric Vanden Eykel

00:00- All we have left is orient.

00:03We know that they were from the East, right?

00:05You're not taking that away from us, are you?

00:07- That's not a great word to use there, so.

00:10- I didn't write the song, Dan.

00:12(upbeat music)

00:15- Hey everybody, I'm Dan McClellan.

00:19- And I'm Dan Beecher.

00:20- And you are listening to the Data Overdogma podcast

00:23where we increase public access to the academic study

00:26of the Bible and religion and combat the spread

00:28of misinformation about the same.

00:30How goes the combat, Dan?

00:32- Man, we're out there, it's the most wonderful time

00:36of the year, or maybe when this airs,

00:39it's a little bit after the most wonderful time

00:41of the year.

00:42- Well, it depends on your proclivities

00:45if you're a Western Christian or an Eastern Christian.

00:47Sometimes some of those people like to hold things off

00:50for a little bit, but.

00:51- That's true, there are dating questions at play,

00:55but that's not what today's episode is about.

00:58We'll probably have to get to that at some point.

01:00- Yeah, at some point, they're busting down the door

01:02about that.

01:03- But today we've got a fun guest, Dan.

01:05Do you wanna tell us who we have,

01:08who our mystery person is on the today's show?

01:10- Absolutely, today we're gonna be talking

01:12with friend of mine, Eric Vanden Eichl.

01:14He is associate professor of religion

01:17and also the Forest S. Williams teaching chair

01:20in the humanities at Ferrum College

01:23just south of Roanoke, Virginia.

01:25So, welcome to the show, Eric, how are you doing today?

01:28- I am doing great, thanks for having me on.

01:30- Well, thank you for your time, thank you for being here,

01:32we appreciate it.

01:34And what are we talking about today, Eric?

01:38Is it this book right here, "The Magi"?

01:41- Is that beautiful blue book on "The Magi"?

01:43Yeah, this is a book, yeah.

01:45- Go ahead.

01:45- But it's a book that I published last year

01:47on the mysterious visitors in the gospel of Matthew.

01:52- I don't know what's so mysterious.

01:54I mean, I think we all know the story.

01:57Obviously, three dudes show up, they follow a star,

02:02they go, they visit, they're wearing crazy clothing

02:06and they each have a single gift to give

02:11and then they go home.

02:13What's hard about this?

02:15- You have a savior, yeah.

02:17- Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, they're right there

02:19on the cover, right?

02:20You forgot the bit about their crowns though, I think.

02:22- Yeah, it's because they're kings,

02:25we know that they are kings.

02:26- Embossed, yeah.

02:27- Oh, yeah, no, beautiful cover, yeah.

02:29So, I think that, you know, for a,

02:35I mean, this isn't a large part of the Bible,

02:38it's in one gospel, it's what,

02:42I mean, we're not even talking about like four chapters

02:45or whatever, what are we talking about here?

02:47- No, we're talking about like 12 verses

02:50and yeah, only in Matthew and only very briefly

02:53and they, the story is so short

02:57and so lacking in detail, right?

03:00And so the sort of, you know, all of the hymns

03:03and the iconography and everything that kind of develops

03:06around these characters,

03:08when people go back and reread the story,

03:12they're often surprised at how little

03:13there actually is there.

03:15If there's just nothing, there's no,

03:17there's hardly any detail at all.

03:19- And we're gonna talk a little bit more

03:20about this later, but there's an awful lot

03:23that has accreted to the tradition over the centuries

03:27and a lot of what we, when we picture it in our heads,

03:30kind of like the way we picture Moses,

03:32sometimes it's Whitney Houston

03:34and it's the Prince of Egypt

03:36that is actually front and center in our imagination

03:39and the way we recreate these stories

03:41with the Magi or Magi if you're nasty.

03:44This can, there are other traditions

03:46that are influencing how we think about that.

03:47I'm looking forward to talking about some of these things

03:49and particularly some of the apocryphal tales

03:52that influence our understanding of the story.

03:55- Yeah, you mentioned the different pronunciations.

03:58When I was looking, I sort of looked into this

04:01in a very non-academic way a few years ago

04:06and I saw the word Magus used as sort of like a transliteration

04:11or something of the Greek or whatever.

04:17Now, for me, for the rest of my life and my mind,

04:21I'm going to think of the three Magus.

04:23- I don't think that's correct,

04:26but that's how I prefer to think of them.

04:28- Well, the three wise guys is another way

04:30that some people refer to.

04:33But maybe we should start with that word

04:35because there's a Greek word here

04:37and it doesn't seem to be easy to know

04:41what that Greek word means.

04:43What are we talking about, Eric?

04:45- Yeah, so the Greek word that Matthew uses is Magoi

04:50and this is the plural form of Magus,

04:54which is what you encountered as the sort of anglicized Magus.

04:58So Magus, though, when we're looking at this word in Greek,

05:02I mean, the easiest way to kind of translate it

05:06woodenly would be just to say something like magic

05:09or magician or something like that.

05:12But just like other titles today

05:16have these kind of connotations.

05:18Magician today has, depending on who you are

05:22and how you feel about magic,

05:24a magician could be somebody who is a showman

05:28or somebody who's kind of talented,

05:32it's sleight of hand, these sorts of things,

05:33or a magician could be someone completely negative.

05:38And so when we're talking about kind of understanding

05:41what this word means, trying to avoid those sorts

05:46of loaded words, I think, are helpful.

05:49But also in the ancient world, right,

05:51is sort of the same kind of thing goes.

05:54In the ancient world, there's some people who view Magoi

05:58very positively, and then there are some people

06:00who view them as charlatans.

06:02And you see this in the New Testament, right?

06:07You see in Matthew, there's these Magoi

06:09who tend to, they don't seem evil or nefarious

06:13or anything like that, but then you go a couple books later

06:16in the book of Acts, and they're kind of negative characters.

06:21So, but anyway, getting back to this question,

06:24how do we translate this?

06:26There's been a number of different attempts, right?

06:28So there's some translations that use,

06:31they follow the King James and say, why is men, right?

06:34And so emphasizing the wisdom of these characters

06:38rather than if we could say their magicalness perhaps,

06:43but then there's also, I believe it's the NIV

06:47if I'm remembering correctly, that calls them astrologers,

06:51which is probably a bit of a stretch,

06:53calls them that because of their interest in the star.

06:56- I mean, we know that they're interested

06:58in at least one star, right?

07:01- That's the thing, but the really funny thing is

07:03that in other ancient literature that you survey

07:05when you look at Magoi in this ancient literature,

07:08one of the things that they just aren't often associated with

07:12is astronomy, like they're not really all that interested.

07:15I mean, they are, but that's not primarily

07:17what Magoi and ancient literature do.

07:19You know, they are, and they do a lot of different things.

07:23They're sort of religious figures, they're advisory figures.

07:25So there's the wisdom, there's also the kind of like

07:28priestly function.

07:29So yeah, how do you translate it?

07:31I took the easy route in this book and I just said,

07:33let's not, let's just keep them as Magoi

07:36and let's just say that word's complicated

07:38and we're gonna embrace the strangeness.

07:40- We're gonna punt.

07:41Yeah, exactly, exactly.

07:43That's the little translator tip.

07:44Like this word is untranslatable.

07:46- Yeah, that's what kind of is, you know?

07:49- Yeah, and that's something you find a lot

07:51in the Septuagint, the ancient Greek translation

07:53of the Hebrew Bible.

07:54It's like, why are they translating stuff all over the place?

07:57They're punting an awful lot.

07:59- So, well, and to some extent, because it's such a short part

08:04of this book, there's no hints to really help you,

08:09to get you any further than where you just said you are.

08:13You know what I mean?

08:14There's nothing about these guys.

08:16We don't know anything about these guys.

08:19- No.

08:20I mean, all we know is, I mean, what Matthew tells us

08:24is that there's more than one, right?

08:26He uses the plural.

08:27So we know there's more than one.

08:28He never says three, he just says three gifts.

08:31Does he imagine three?

08:32Yes, probably.

08:33Doesn't matter, though.

08:34But, you know, where do they come from?

08:35They come from this kind of like big area, the East, right?

08:39Which is not terribly helpful.

08:41And then they tell the people in Jerusalem,

08:44they say we're looking for the one born king of the Judeans

08:47and we wanna come and bow before him.

08:51We don't really, yeah, we don't have any clues

08:51That's it, though.

08:54from Matthew of who he's imagining,

08:57these specific visitors to be, yeah.

09:01- Now, in the Hebrew Bible, we've got a lot of references

09:04to things that are going on in the East.

09:06And they're generally pretty negative things.

09:08It's kind of a generic reference to those weirdos over there

09:12probably has to do with Persian things that are going on

09:17in the late first century CE when Matthew is being composed

09:22is how much is the scriptural heritage playing a role

09:27in what we think Matthew is getting at?

09:30Are we trying to evoke that imagery,

09:32those concepts of these mysterious people in the East

09:35who, you know, read the stars and cut open sheep

09:40and feel the livers?

09:42Or is there, or is it an independent kind of set of motifs

09:47that Matthew is appealing to here?

09:51Do you have a thought on that?

09:53- Oh, I have lots of thoughts on that, oh, excellent.

09:55- You know, why don't you talk for the rest of the show then?

09:58- No, I think, I mean, obviously, I think Matthew

10:01is probably aware of this heritage

10:04and this kind of baggage that that location has.

10:08But I don't, I mean, I think there's sort of a,

10:12maybe yes, maybe no.

10:13So if there certainly has been in the past

10:17interpretations of Matthew,

10:20and these are very early interpretations

10:22that say that when Matthew has these magoi visiting Jerusalem

10:27and Bethlehem, that they are the sort of,

10:32like they might be leaving that wicked and strange

10:36and mysterious place to sort of come to Jesus.

10:39Sort of, you know, the kind of early impulse

10:41to kind of emphasize the conversion of the magoi, right?

10:45Like they are enslaved to these demonic forces in the East

10:50and they're coming to be liberated by Jesus or whatever.

10:55So that's one interpretation.

10:58And so if that is the interpretation you have,

11:01which is actually not the interpretation I have,

11:03but if it is the interpretation that you have,

11:05then I suppose yes, Matthew is sort of participating

11:08in that the East is the sort of negative location.

11:13My read of Matthew though,

11:17is that he is more kind of using the East as,

11:21I mean, still a strange and mysterious place,

11:23but almost like in an alluring and sort of titillating way,

11:26like it's the kind of-

11:28- It's not a fascination.

11:29- Yeah, like the fascination with the East

11:32and the kind of place where all of these ancient,

11:35ancient religious practices are and they are.

11:39So I think more kind of tapping into the East

11:43as a source of kind of mystery, intrigue, power even.

11:48And these are the people who are sort of coming

11:52from the East to, yeah, to pay homage to the new king.

11:56So I think Matthew is tapping into it,

11:59yes, as a mysterious place,

12:00but as a mysterious place ultimately in a good way.

12:03- Do you think, for those of us who don't have

12:06a lot of background in this,

12:08contemporaneously to the author of Matthew,

12:12how would people have registered this?

12:15Is our, when we say the East,

12:17are we going to Iran, that area, to that Persia?

12:20I mean, is this Zoroastrianism or like,

12:25who are these people to the contemporaries of the time?

12:28- Do we have a sense of that?

12:31- Yeah, I think, I mean, I imagine this probably

12:36the majority of readers in this time period,

12:39imagining this probably as sort of Persia,

12:42that kind of area.

12:44But then also there's plenty of interpreters

12:46who take the East to mean even a land beyond Persia,

12:50the sort of, you know, mythical ends of the world

12:53or things like this.

12:54But yeah, I think, just in terms of geographically,

12:57you know, East, East indicating Persia.

13:01- Yeah, we're not talking about India or China or...

13:05- No, I don't think so.

13:06Yeah, and I think part of the key to this

13:09is that in a lot of Greco-Roman literature,

13:13Magoie are a cast of priests in Persia.

13:18- Okay, and this cast of priests,

13:22we know from a lot of literature

13:23and a lot of curricula and things that we've found

13:26that they went through extensive training to be filled in

13:30on the ways that the physical world manifests the will

13:35and things of the gods.

13:38I remember as an undergraduate reading all these things,

13:40if you see this unfavorable,

13:42this, that and the other favorable,

13:44this unfavorable, it's just lists of things

13:46followed by favorable or unfavorable.

13:48But I've always thought of this juxtaposition

13:53of the Magoie and Herod who's like,

13:58"Huh, what, what's going on?"

14:00As kind of saying, this is so written

14:03into the very fabric of our existence

14:05that foreigners can read it.

14:08It's legible to them and they come and say,

14:11"We've seen the star, the king of the Jews is here."

14:14And Herod's like, "Oh, I miss this."

14:16And I see it as kind of contrasting

14:19how the foreigners are better informed

14:21about this kind of thing than our own king.

14:24And is there any sense that what's going on here

14:29is we're trying to portray Jesus' birth

14:34as just something that anybody paying attention

14:37could not fail to miss,

14:40that this is something written

14:42in the very fabric of the universe?

14:44- Well, yeah.

14:46I mean, the whole, the Magoie are clued in and Herod isn't.

14:51That becomes a very problematic dynamic

14:56in later interpretations of the story.

14:58But, you know, I don't know if it's the case

15:03that I don't know if what Matthew is saying

15:07is that this is so sort of self-evident

15:09that anyone's paying attention will actually see it

15:12because he has, he doesn't have people coming from the east.

15:16He has Magoie coming from the east.

15:18And as you said, these are highly trained

15:20religious professionals probably.

15:22Or at least that's the connotation

15:24that they have in the ancient world.

15:25And so really the whole point is it isn't the case

15:30that anyone can tell what's going on here.

15:32It's the case that these people, for whatever reason, can.

15:37And they're the ones who are paying attention

15:39And why they're paying attention to those things,

15:39to such things.

15:42who knows, you know, what in the world is the whole star?

15:46Is it, you know, what is the star, right?

15:49Is it some kind of unusually bright thing

15:53that really, really stands out?

15:55Well, I mean, the point of the story

15:58seems to be that it isn't, right?

15:59It's something that they can see the significance in,

16:03but not everyone can.

16:05Yeah, it does seem like they are A,

16:07privy to information that other people don't seem to have.

16:10And B, it seems to be more, I don't know, in my reading,

16:15it seems to be more a point of interest for them

16:17than it is because as soon as they come

16:19and drop off their gifts, they're out.

16:24They leave, they don't join up.

16:26They don't, you know what I mean?

16:27They're not, they don't stick around.

16:29They overtly go away.

16:31Mm-hmm.

16:32Yeah, and they leave as quickly as they get there, right?

16:35They go to the wrong place first, right?

16:36'Cause they see the stars as, the star tells them,

16:40or they interpret it as the king of the Judeans

16:45has just been born.

16:46And so they go to Jerusalem

16:48because that's the obvious place

16:50where you would find the king of the Judeans.

16:51It's like saying, well, it's not the same.

16:54I was gonna say something about the president or whatever,

16:56but if you walked outside and saw some star

17:01and the star told you like, go and find the president

17:06of the United States, the most obvious place to go

17:09would be Washington, DC, right?

17:11If I went to Richmond, that doesn't make any sense.

17:16And so yeah, they sort of are, yeah,

17:20they kind of go to that wrong place,

17:23but then the star sort of appears

17:25and then leads them to the right place in to Bethlehem.

17:28But yeah, they get there, they give their gifts,

17:30and then they, I mean, the only other detail

17:33in terms of how long they were there

17:35is that apparently they were there long enough

17:36to go to sleep, 'cause they had a dream.

17:39- Yeah.

17:40Right.

17:41well, we need to go back by another way,

17:41- And then they were like,

17:43but yeah, they don't camp out and get an apartment.

17:47Like they just, they do what they came to do,

17:49which they came to give their gifts

17:51and pay tribute to the king, and then they leave.

17:53They go home.

17:54(upbeat music)

17:57- So two questions about them showing up.

18:02One, a lot of folks tend to think

18:04that it got kind of crowded around the manger

18:08on the night when Jesus was born,

18:10but this is something that's happening a little bit later.

18:13And to what degree do you think they're kind of functioning

18:16as a bit of a maguffin to kind of inform Herod

18:21that his challenger has been born?

18:24So that he can go and do what Herod's got to do

18:27to kind of fulfill his role in this whole narrative.

18:32Are those fair questions?

18:38- Yeah, so that's a question of,

18:40so let me make sure I'm understanding your question.

18:42So the question being sort of, are these guys,

18:45are these guys sort of there to facilitate Herod's tyrannical,

18:52like, his Matthew's obviously trying to tell the story

18:56of Jesus's birth through kind of alluding

18:59to the story of Moses's birth,

19:01like the slaughter of the innocents

19:02and all of this kind of stuff.

19:04I think it's intriguing to kind of consider that possibility

19:07that that's what they are doing here.

19:09But I also think that the story and the connotations

19:12that that word magoi carries with it makes it a little bit,

19:18I guess my response would be, if that's Matthew's goal

19:23is that they are sort of facilitating this thing

19:27that Herod's doing, then Matthew has overtold the story,

19:31if that makes sense.

19:32It's almost like if you had said,

19:34I had a student one time who made the suggestion

19:37when I was asking them,

19:39so we were talking about the flood stories in Genesis.

19:43Yeah, so what's the point of the story, right?

19:45Like, why does the story exist?

19:46What's the meaning?

19:47Like I said, and they were trying to bring in vocabulary

19:50from earlier in the class,

19:52and so they said, is the flood story an etiology

19:55for the rainbow?

19:56And I was like, well, and lest anyone think

20:02that I'm student shaming here, I'm absolutely not.

20:04It's a brilliant suggestion, right?

20:05Is it an etiology for the rainbow?

20:07Does it tell us where the rainbow comes from?

20:09And I sort of paused for a second.

20:11I thought, well, maybe, but that's an awfully violent

20:17and complicated story to explain the rainbow.

20:22And so I would think that they tend to fit in

20:27with the story of Herod being Herod, right?

20:32Being the sort of that tyrant.

20:36But if that's their only function

20:37or even their primary function,

20:39I think that Matthew has oversold and overtold that story.

20:42Okay.

20:44And then do we have an idea about the time after Jesus' birth

20:49that they show up?

20:52How many days, months, years are we talking about?

20:55Yeah, so I think that question,

20:58that's a question that I think comes from attempts

21:02to read Matthew and Luke together, right?

21:05'Cause part of the kind of harmonizing impulse

21:08of reading Matthew and Luke together,

21:10these very different birth stories,

21:12is Luke tells about the story of Jesus' birth

21:15and then Matthew sort of imagines the maggoid being there

21:20a couple of years later,

21:23because of the reference to the two years old and whatever.

21:26And I think that's certainly possible

21:29that Matthew is imagining these visitors

21:32as coming to see Jesus after he's been like alive for a while.

21:39But also, I just don't really think he gives us enough clues.

21:43I just think he's sort of imagining them as kind of,

21:46yeah, just sort of showing up.

21:48And so later stories kind of try to answer this question, right?

21:53Like how much later did they come?

21:55And so some will say, well, you know,

21:58the star appeared when Jesus was born

22:00and then they set out and they, you know,

22:02took a couple months or whatever to get there.

22:04And then others say like the star appeared, you know,

22:07a year in advance or whatever so that they arrived right

22:09when the birth had just happened.

22:11But yeah, it's a question.

22:12The timeline is a question that doesn't really seem

22:15to have a firm answer in Matthew.

22:17- Remind me which of the gospels the drummer boy is in.

22:20Is that, that's Luke, right?

22:22I'm not, I'm just trying to piece it all together.

22:25- Oh, yeah.

22:26- That's the gospel of Bing Crosby and I.

22:28It's a rump-a-pum-pum chapter two.

22:33- Such a strange, such a strange,

22:36the drummer boy has always stuck out to me.

22:38It's like, really, that's the, you know, like.

22:41- It's kind of, well, I mean, as we all know,

22:43when someone's just given birth,

22:45the thing that they really want is a drum solo.

22:47- Yeah, that's the thing.

22:48- That's the thing we're all hoping for

22:51in those, in those quiet moments in a major.

22:54- Yes, whatever woman wants.

22:55- Speak, but speaking of sort of, you know,

23:00when we, when we think about all of these stories,

23:02we do mesh them together.

23:04We mesh together, you know, like every grandma has a,

23:09you know, a crush, you know, a nativity scene.

23:14And there's Joseph and Mary and Jesus in the major.

23:18And then, you know, there's all of these other characters.

23:21There's angels and shepherds and various critters.

23:26And then there's these three dudes.

23:33How much, like, maybe you can talk to us

23:36because now we do, we have, you know,

23:41Daniel alluded to it before.

23:42We've got like names for these guys.

23:45We've got, you know, a whole bunch of different

23:48backstories and whatever.

23:50Where does all of that come from?

23:52'Cause I read those 12 verses in Matthew.

23:56And, balthazar or whatever doesn't come up

24:00or whatever the names are, I don't--

24:02Yeah, yeah, no, that's the thing.

24:04You read them and you go, huh, that's it, wow.

24:07Yeah, so I mean, that is a, I mean, it's a product

24:10of how we read and it's a product of how we make meaning,

24:14right, is that we always are reading stories,

24:19everything we read, we're always reading

24:20in light of other things that we've read.

24:22And then also our brains are filling in the gaps

24:27when we have stories that don't have that detail, right?

24:31And so one of the greatest examples of this

24:33is if you just read the story of Jesus' birth

24:38in the Gospel of Luke.

24:39And in the Gospel of Luke, there is no stable, right?

24:43But this is a detail that readers' minds have filled in.

24:47And if people are watching this right now,

24:50go to the Gospel of Luke and find the stable.

24:52You won't be able to find it.

24:53There's also no innkeeper in the Gospel of Luke.

24:56You know, that's the Christmas pageant, right?

25:00Who's going to play the sorry or the evil innkeeper?

25:03Like, well, that role doesn't appear in Luke.

25:06There's simply no room for them in the khanaluma,

25:10which whoever knows what that means.

25:11But anyway, so we sort of, we mesh things together

25:16and we fill in gaps.

25:18And that's just kind of how the whole reading

25:22and meaning-making process works.

25:26And so in Luke, where does the stable come from?

25:29Well, there's a manger and so manger is a feeding trough

25:32for animals, so where might you find a manger?

25:35Well, maybe in a stable, but also maybe in an alleyway,

25:39maybe in a cave and all of these different kinds of places.

25:43And so when you're reading Matthew

25:45and all of the things that we've been talking about, right,

25:47like how many people are there?

25:49Where are they actually from?

25:50What are their names?

25:51What do they want with Jesus?

25:53Those are all questions that earliest readers have.

25:58And then they start to kind of fill in those gaps.

26:01And it's like if you're telling a bedtime storage to your kid

26:05and then there was Magi who came from the East.

26:07What were their names?

26:08You know, and then they sort of those details

26:10kind of creep into the story as it's told and retold.

26:14You brought up, you brought up a cave.

26:17Dan, you talked about meshing these things together.

26:20This is stuff that's already going on in the second century.

26:22We have Tations Deatesseron,

26:24which is a harmonization of all of the gospels,

26:26which is meshing these things together.

26:29We have an interesting text that seems to be the root

26:32of a lot of its traditions associated with

26:36the pre-birth and birth of Jesus,

26:39the pro-demangelium of James, correct?

26:42Yes.

26:43This is where we get the picture of Mary riding down

26:46to Bethlehem on a donkey.

26:48This is where we get the idea that they found them in a cave.

26:51This is where we, what other ideas do we get from?

26:55You're telling me the donkey isn't even real?

26:57The donkey's not real.

26:58They did not have donkeys in that time period.

27:00(laughing)

27:02It's in the line too.

27:03It's in the Pixar movie, though.

27:05No, the pro-demangelium, which is another text

27:09that's near and dear to my heart,

27:11the pro-demangelium does seem to be one of,

27:15I mean, along with the Deatesseron,

27:16it sort of seems to be one of the kind of crucibles

27:20where these gospel's traditions are starting to,

27:25are starting to kind of combine.

27:27And so, you know, in the ways that they're combining

27:31So like in Luke, you have this sort of Jesus born

27:31is really fascinating.

27:36wherever he's born, right, on the streets somewhere

27:39or in a stable or in a cave or whatever.

27:42The whole point being he's born not in a house.

27:45And then Matthew, the Magoi come to the house

27:51that Joseph and Mary live in.

27:52So there's kind of two different stories here.

27:54Matthew has them living in Bethlehem

27:56and that's why Jesus is born there.

27:58Luke has them traveling for the census

28:00and that's why Jesus is born there.

28:02In the pro-demangelium, they are traveling

28:05to register in the census,

28:09but then they sort of are outside of Bethlehem

28:13and then they stop in the cave,

28:15which again, like if you go back to Luke,

28:18that detail actually doesn't contradict Luke.

28:20It just sort of provides a detail that Luke doesn't provide.

28:23But then the pro-demangelium author harmonizes these things

28:27by also having the Magi appear at this cave.

28:31And so, you know, the sort of quote-unquote,

28:35homeless Jesus is a Lukean feature,

28:38but then the Magi and the star and all of that stuff,

28:40that's a Matthewan feature

28:42and then they get kind of combined in there in that.

28:45- And then we turn it up to 11, a little bit.

28:47- Yeah, yeah, and that's when the drummer boy

28:52comes up on the donkey.

28:54- And you got it. - I think I'm getting it.

28:57I think I'm getting it, I'm working on it.

28:59- We're so close, so close.

29:01- Yeah.

29:02where you talk about four different apocryphal texts

29:02- You've got a great chapter in here

29:05that feature the Magi that contribute

29:08to some of the different ways we think about them today.

29:10The pro-demangelium of James is one of them.

29:12We've also got the gospel of pseudo Matthew,

29:14the Armenian gospel of the infancy

29:16and the revelation of the Magi.

29:18What are some of the things

29:19that these texts contribute to the accumulation

29:23of traditions about the Magi?

29:25- Yeah, so with, I mean, starting with the kind of,

29:30well, it's going back to the pro-demangelium,

29:33starting with that of one of the things

29:35that I sort of noticed when I was looking at that story

29:38is this kind of early fascination with the star, right?

29:42So Matthew doesn't really do much with the star,

29:46I mean, it's sort of, it's there.

29:48But the pro-demangelium, the Magi make reference to the star

29:53and they talk about why it was so interesting to them, right?

29:57And then one of the, the thing that they say is

30:00that it was so bright that all of the other stars

30:03in the heavens were dimmed because of its brightness, right?

30:07Which is a new detail, right?

30:08We don't get that in Matthew.

30:09We just get that they saw something of significance in the star.

30:12- And a detail that might be problematic

30:14in that like, folks might have noticed that one.

30:18- Right, and that's the thing is that the the,

30:21so the star sort of in later traditions kind of,

30:25it gains the ability to sort of appear and reappear

30:31and disappear and this kind of has,

30:33this is in Matthew as well where the star reappears

30:36and leads them to Bethlehem from Jerusalem.

30:40But in these later texts, yeah, it becomes almost UFO-esque

30:45in a way that's like anyone who's paying attention

30:49would be able to see this, right?

30:51Like if there is a star in the sky that is so bright

30:56that it is dimming all of the other stars,

30:58then certainly that's something

31:00that people are gonna notice.

31:02But, you know, the author of the pro-demangelium

31:05takes that detail and changes a couple of other little details,

31:10but that's the detail that he really takes and says,

31:12all right, we're gonna really turn this up to 11, right?

31:15We're gonna crank the brightness up on this thing

31:18to sort of answer one of those questions

31:21that Matthew doesn't really seem interested in answering,

31:23to say, well, what did they find unique about the star?

31:27And the author of the pro-demangelium says,

31:29well, it was how bright it was, right?

31:31And so that kind of detail gets emphasized there.

31:35In a text like the Armenian Gospel of the infancy,

31:38which is another fascinating text

31:40that I recommend anyone read,

31:41'cause it's just, it's really, really interesting,

31:44but in the Magi material there,

31:46there's this other question that the author

31:49is interested in answering,

31:52which is why when the Magi arrive in Jerusalem,

31:55in Matthew it says,

31:57Herod and all the people in Jerusalem were terrified

32:00when the Magi showed up, and it's weird, right?

32:03You look at this and you go, okay, like, yeah, like,

32:06but why, right, like, why are they terrified?

32:09And in the Armenian Gospel of the infancy,

32:13the answer is, well, they are their kings in this text

32:18and their military leaders,

32:20and they're traveling with thousands and thousands of troops.

32:24And when they arrive at Jerusalem,

32:27they camp out around the city.

32:29And so the Armenian Gospel of the infancy,

32:31the people are terrified because they look out

32:33and they see that they're under siege.

32:35Like literally there's these huge armies

32:38that are laying siege to them.

32:40And so Herod is sending his people out going,

32:42go see what they want.

32:43You'll see if they want to trade.

32:44Go see, you know, whatever.

32:46And then the people come out and they say,

32:47"Hey, we can tell that you're traveling with stuff.

32:50We smell it, you know, it's good."

32:52But that's that, that text is answering that question

32:55of like, well, why were they afraid?

32:58Well, there was armies with them.

33:01And that text is doing other things as well.

33:04But all of these texts are kind of filling out those details.

33:07The revelation of the Magi,

33:09I think I probably could have written an entire chapter

33:12on this text because the revelation of the Magi is,

33:15I never actually checked this.

33:16I suspect that it's about as long as Matthew is,

33:20maybe maybe not quite as long, but it's a long text.

33:23And when is this dated?

33:26Oh, gosh, you're gonna ask me that.

33:29I think I think I would be comfortable just saying

33:33like, I sixth, seventh century.

33:36Okay, so still fairly early.

33:39Yeah, but I mean, there's obviously there's a whole,

33:43there's a whole debate on that.

33:44There's some who really, who really want to push it back

33:47and say, ah, there's a Greek original in the second century,

33:50but you know, everyone wants the Greek original

33:53from the second century.

33:54But anyhow, but it's a Syriac text

33:57and it is a, it's a first person account of the Magi.

34:01And so they're the ones telling the story

34:04and there's like 20 of them too.

34:06So they're, they're all like living way out

34:08in this mythical land of sheer.

34:10And they're like, they're living at the base

34:13of the mountain of the cave of mysteries

34:15and treasures and all of this.

34:17And then the, I mean--

34:18I was in Aladdin.

34:19Yeah, I was in Aladdin, yeah.

34:21You know, it's just, it's really funny.

34:25It does kind of, it does sort of, you know,

34:27give that, give that impression of like,

34:30it's almost like a Disney film.

34:31But, but yeah, they're, they're like, they're there

34:34and they are, you know, they like do all this ritual bathing

34:39and they are, and they're waiting for the arrival

34:42of the star, like they know what they're waiting for.

34:45And then, and then in part of the thing

34:48that star kind of descends and then it goes into the cave

34:51and then they follow it in.

34:53And in this text, the star actually becomes a character.

34:56The star is Jesus himself.

34:58And so the star, yeah, it's really, really fascinating.

35:01The star says to the mage, I like, follow me,

35:04follow me to Bethlehem where I'm going to be born,

35:06where I'm soon going to be born.

35:07And then they leave the cave and,

35:10and that's where they get the gifts by the way.

35:11It's very convenient, the cave of treasures.

35:13So they bring the treasures from the cave.

35:16But then like they leave the cave and, and,

35:18and it turns out they all saw something different.

35:20So that's one of them's like, oh, I saw an infant.

35:23Oh, I saw a young child.

35:24I saw a teacher.

35:26I saw somebody crucified.

35:27And so, yeah, so it's like this shape shifting,

35:31the shape shifting, Jesus.

35:32But yeah, then it, then it, it leads them on

35:35and they follow it and it like levels mountains

35:38and it helps them to cross rivers and it like multiplies

35:42their food for them and all of this, all of this stuff.

35:46So, so it's sort of, yeah, these, these later,

35:49these later stories, these apocryphal stories

35:51are almost like kind of like fan fiction, right?

35:53They, they take these, these, these, the story

35:56that doesn't have a whole lot of detail

35:58and then they kind of fill it out and they retell it.

36:00Yeah, it's a lot of fun.

36:01And that's, and that's so common within early Judaism

36:03and Christianity with, you know, Melchizedek,

36:06not a whole lot going on there.

36:07But suddenly we've got a bunch of literature

36:09and second temple Judaism and later Enoch gets a whole,

36:15you know, universe in the cinematic literary universe

36:19dedicated to Enoch.

36:21And it seems like such a, an interesting thing

36:23to have this little story become the focus

36:27of so much attention.

36:28Like what it seems like there was a market

36:31for kind of exploring these, these kind of neglected themes

36:36and parts of the gospels.

36:38And you mentioned that there are many more

36:41apocryphal texts that, that expand on this

36:44but that you just focused on the four in the chapter.

36:47Is this, is this just associated with the celebration

36:50of Christmas?

36:51Is this a year round fascination

36:53that people in the first millennium CE had?

36:56What's your sense on, on why there was such a market

36:59for, for these kinds of stories?

37:01Oh my gosh, that's a great question

37:03that I don't know if I have a really good answer for.

37:06The, I mean, it seems to be, yeah, I mean, I, I kind of get

37:11the sense just with the prevalence of these characters

37:14in not only, not only stories.

37:18I mean, I can't even remember where I read this,

37:21where I read this claim, but there was,

37:23I read a claim somewhere that the Magi are like third

37:28in terms of the most depicted characters

37:32from the New Testament or something like that.

37:34Oh wow.

37:35I'm not even sure if you could measure a claim like that

37:37but obviously like Mary and Jesus are like way up

37:40at the top, but I mean, in terms of recognizable characters,

37:45right?

37:45I mean, these are, these are characters that regardless

37:49of whether you were, you know, brought up hearing the story

37:53or brought up celebrating Christmas or whatever,

37:56these are characters that, that do have a very, very broad,

38:01not a broad appeal, but a broad level of recognition.

38:04I mean, so it, my guess is that the,

38:08that they were kind of not just,

38:12not just characters that you brought out of your Christmas

38:15decorations box and set on your mantle once a year,

38:19but my kind of sense is that they did have a more enduring

38:23quality to them.

38:25And you sort of can see this in a couple of different ways.

38:30One of the things I talk about a bit in the book

38:33is the Catacomb art, right?

38:35And so there's the Magi, some of the earliest depictions

38:38of the Magi are in, in the Catacombs in Rome,

38:42in the Priscilla Catacombs.

38:43There's a, there's a painting of them in this,

38:46in this beautiful chapel, and then there's,

38:49they appear again in a couple of different places.

38:52There's another painting out in the hallway

38:53where they appear, fresco with Mary,

38:56and then there's a marble slab where they appear as well.

38:59So this sort of, they have kind of an enduring quality

39:03that seems to kind of supersede like Christmas, I guess.

39:08They're not, I guess that all of that's to say,

39:10I don't get the sense that they are seasonal characters.

39:12I get the sense that in the early Christian imagination,

39:15they were very prominent.

39:17In terms of why, I mean, that's the $10 million question,

39:23is sort of what about them?

39:26Well, it's in the subtitle of the book,

39:27why do they still fascinate, right?

39:29And they seem to have caught people's imaginations very early,

39:33perhaps because of how loaded that term is, right?

39:38The Magoair says a loaded, loaded term in Greek literature.

39:42But yeah, for whatever reason, they latched on.

39:45(upbeat music)

39:47- I mean, it does seem like a part of the story,

39:53or a part of their function,

39:55is that they are some sort of outside confirmation

40:02of the divinity or of the divine provenance of this birth,

40:07of, you know what I mean?

40:08It seems like it's a nice touch,

40:13just from a storytelling perspective,

40:17it is a, this is not just important

40:22to one small subset of people,

40:24to the Judeans or to whatever.

40:27This is a thing of sort of global importance,

40:31and this adds that externality of importance to the story.

40:36- Yeah, it's, you know, so there's a, yeah,

40:41there's a sense here with the way that the way

40:44that Magi and other ancient literature are depicted.

40:47One of the really interesting things

40:51that you see time and again,

40:52you see this a lot in Herodotus,

40:55you see this a lot though that they are,

40:57that Magi are people who are drawn to kings.

41:00When, when Magi show up in a story,

41:03we're talking not in the New Testament,

41:06but with the Magi show up in a story,

41:08they are, there's about to be a,

41:10some sort of political shake up.

41:12Like, you know, when the Magi show up,

41:15there's either gonna be a new king

41:17who is, who is, is taking power

41:19or somebody's about to lose their job.

41:21And that's just kind of this theme that you see,

41:23kind of over and over and over again.

41:26And even one of the made there's two other

41:30in the New Testament,

41:31two other mentions of Magi in both in Acts.

41:34And in one of them, this Magi named his two names,

41:38Bar Jesus and Elimus.

41:39And he is also near the leader kind of figures.

41:42So they're sort of drawn to political power.

41:45So in my read of this story,

41:47it's actually less about validating the divinity of Jesus

41:51and more about validating Jesus' royal lineage

41:55and saying, you know, the Magi are here

41:58to confirm that this is the true king of the Judeans.

42:03Herod ain't it, but Jesus is.

42:05And that's, and that's one of the reasons why they show up,

42:08they give their gifts, they go.

42:11'Cause that's why they're there, yeah.

42:12- One of the interesting things, sorry,

42:13you just made me think of one of the interesting things

42:15that I liked about your book was you, you know,

42:18you have a discussion fairly early on.

42:20When you're, when in, I think it's in chapter two,

42:23when you're talking about sort of how you're translating

42:25a few of these different words.

42:27And you talk about, you've said a couple times today,

42:32King of the Judeans, Dan said King of the Jews earlier.

42:36And there's a question there.

42:39- Man, I'm starting to fight, I'm starting to fight,

42:43who wins?

42:44- You have no idea what a fight you're starting here.

42:46- Oh man, I'm just speaking colloquially.

42:51- Hey man, I'm just asking questions, that's my job.

42:58- Well Dan, do you want to take the first punch or?

43:01- Well no, I'm not, I'm not,

43:02I'm not siding with a specific part of this,

43:06but yeah, there's long been a discussion

43:07about how we are to understand this designation

43:11and this identity, is this cultural, is this religious?

43:15Is there even a thing as such as religion at this time?

43:19Spoiler alert no, is this a geographic designation?

43:24Is this an ethnic designation?

43:25Like there's, this is something that's been,

43:28it's been debated for a long, long time

43:30because it has relevance to when you can begin

43:33to start about something,

43:34or to start talking about something called Judaism.

43:37And there've been some books where, you know,

43:40people will start off in the very first,

43:41or in the introduction saying,

43:43"Hey, I'm just gonna use Judean,

43:46"or I'm just gonna use Judahite,

43:48"or I'm just gonna use Jewish, or something like that."

43:51Just, and here's what, I'm aware of all this,

43:54but I'm just, 'cause you don't, you know,

43:57you can't ever get a first down on this,

43:58you've got a punt on this in one sense or another.

44:01So yeah, I'm not taking sides,

44:05I'm just kind of, I use what is most colloquial

44:08and what is most recognizable to my audience.

44:11But thank you, thank you for pointing that out

44:13and opening up Old Moon.

44:15Oh no, this is, and this is one of those debates,

44:18it's a huge debate in our field,

44:21and it can sometimes get rather messy.

44:25And so I do, you know, the ultimate punt would just say,

44:30would just be to say, like,

44:34I'm just not gonna translate it, right?

44:35Like, that's, you know, the king of the, you die away.

44:37- Yeah, but really-- - But you did with magic.

44:40- Exactly, but you know, you can't do that with everything

44:43'cause then-- - Right, right.

44:45- Then it's just lazy, but, you know,

44:48but the, yeah, I translate it king of the Judeans here.

44:53I am not one of those who thinks that it is necessarily

44:57always the best translated as Judeans.

45:01I think it's very context-specific.

45:03And so in this particular story,

45:06I think that that very well captures

45:08the sort of ethno-political emphasis

45:12that Matthew is putting on the story

45:15by incorporating these people.

45:17You know, they are coming to see the rightfully born king

45:22of this particular ethnos.

45:28And so Judean better captures that better than Jews.

45:33But yeah, I think it just depends on what you're reading

45:41and that's one of the challenges of translation

45:42is that there is no one-to-one correspondence really ever.

45:47It's always, there's always a question of context there.

45:51- Apart from the people's front of Judea, who are splitters.

45:55So we're talking about how this is emphasized

46:00in the royal dimension of Jesus's identity and mission.

46:04Where do three kings come from?

46:07'Cause I get something in my world of responding

46:11to a lot of conspiracy theories.

46:13I get a lot of stuff about, oh, the Orion's belt

46:16is called the Three Kings.

46:18And on this day, the belt points to the rising sun

46:22on the 25th and so people just made this thing up.

46:26They just pulled everything out of the astrologer's handbook

46:30and said, "We're gonna create this dude named Jesus."

46:33- I mean, that's how I've always understood it.

46:35- Well, yeah, I mean, I'm not gonna go against

46:37the consensus view here.

46:38But so I growing up, like I did not grow up

46:42in it within a religious family.

46:45We celebrated Christmas as more of a secular holiday

46:50and I never heard the wise men referred to as the Three Kings

46:54but evidently that's very prominent for a lot of folks.

46:59Where do we get the idea of the Three Kings?

47:02- Yeah, so I think, I mean, that sort of,

47:07it does develop relatively early.

47:10So it's, you know, they, I think one of the ways

47:14that it develops is this idea that they are coming from,

47:19you know, in Matthew, they seem to be all kind of traveling

47:21together from the east or whatever.

47:23But then one of the popular ways of retelling the story

47:27is that they are sort of all coming from different places

47:31and converging on Bethlehem.

47:34So sort of a, and that kind of grows into this,

47:37you know, the different rulers or different important people

47:42or different kings from various different places

47:45are coming together to kind of pay tribute to the real king.

47:49And so this is, and I think part of this,

47:51how do they become kings is the star of business in Matthew.

47:55Like what is the star doing in Matthew?

47:57And one of the things that I talk about in,

47:59in one of the chapters in the book is this kind of linkage

48:03between stars and rulers,

48:06which is something that you find in the Hebrew Bible.

48:09And it is something that you find in Roman literature as well,

48:13talking about Caesar and the star of Caesar and whatever.

48:16And that, you know, that, that star is a sign that,

48:19that Caesar is after his assassination was,

48:23was divine or whatever.

48:25And then his son sort of uses this as propaganda to say,

48:28I am the rightful ruler and, you know, my, my dad is,

48:33is God, is a God.

48:35And so like I am the son of a God or whatever.

48:37And so, so stars do have this kind of linkage with,

48:41with rulers.

48:42And so stars rise, just like kings rise and stars fall,

48:45kings fall as well.

48:46And so with texts like the proto gospel of James,

48:50the print of Angelium, you sort of have the one star Jesus

48:55that is brighter than all the other stars,

48:58kings, perhaps.

48:59And so then, you know, maybe that's something that works its way

49:04into the imagination of like, oh, maybe these characters

49:07who were coming to bow before Jesus to humble themselves.

49:11Maybe they were kings, but also just lesser kings.

49:15And so my hunch is that that is that the star is very much

49:18one of the ways that people start thinking about them

49:21as royal figures.

49:23And of course, the fact that they show up wearing crowns.

49:26(laughing)

49:27- There you go.

49:28- You can't really, you really can't discount that.

49:29I mean, it's right there in the pictures.

49:31- And the gold frankincense and myrrh,

49:34is there symbolism associated with royalty there?

49:37Or is that something else?

49:39- Yeah, so that's another great question.

49:41Depends on who you ask.

49:42If you ask some of the early church interpreters

49:47who are reading this story,

49:49many of them are interpreting the gifts

49:52as figurative of parts of Jesus' own identity, right?

49:57So the gold symbolizes Jesus' royal status,

50:01the frankincense symbolizes Jesus' divine status.

50:05And then the myrrh is figuring,

50:08prefiguring his death or humanity

50:10or something along these lines.

50:12I don't really find a whole lot of that in Matthew.

50:14I don't think for Matthew,

50:15that's really the point of the gifts.

50:16I think Matthew believes that they are expensive.

50:19I think he's trying to think of the fanciest

50:21and most costly things that he can.

50:23And so this either means that these people

50:27are rich like kings or that they have sold everything

50:32that they have in order to gain these things.

50:36So I think that the gifts are sort of definitely meant

50:41as helping to validate Jesus' position

50:45as the rightful king of the Judeans.

50:47But I think the gifts in Matthew

50:48say more about Jesus' kingship

50:50than they do about their kingship.

50:52- Okay. - And there's also another text.

50:54And now the reference is escaping me,

50:56but it's in the book where there's a Greco-Roman author

51:01who says that the kings in Persia can't be kings

51:06unless they are first Magi.

51:09So they're sort of like they are pulling the kings

51:12out of this pool of these figures.

51:15So there's also in the ancient world outside of Matthew,

51:18there's also an association between Magi and kings.

51:22- I noticed as we're talking about the different ways

51:25that people are kind of negotiating with this story,

51:28it's always amplifying, it's always escalating,

51:31it's always trying to find

51:32additional significance, additional meaning,

51:34which is something that I talk about a lot

51:36on social media that people are always looking for new

51:40and better ways to make the text meaningful or useful to them.

51:44And even if that means adding details and expanding the story

51:49that's just kind of a natural part of the life cycle

51:52of these stories as they are transmitted,

51:55they get expanded upon, they get elaborated on,

51:59they get amplified.

52:01And obviously this is no exception.

52:02In fact, this seems to be one of the,

52:04it's an exception in the other direction.

52:06It seems to be something where something

52:08that doesn't take center stage for whatever reason

52:12has become an awful big deal

52:15to a lot of folks around the world.

52:17And you end your book with a discussion about some ways

52:21that the Magi are represented in media today.

52:25What are some of the more fascinating manifestations

52:29of that that you talk about?

52:31- Yeah, so while one of the kind of the things

52:36that sort of persists, and it's an early,

52:40it's a rather early interpretive move

52:43that became very stubbornly persistent, I suppose.

52:46And that is interpreting the significance of the Magi

52:50first and foremost as being Gentiles.

52:52And that is, I think, one of the most really interesting things

52:57that persists in a lot of more modern depictions

53:03as sort of these, or in a lot of theological interpretations

53:06of these is like these are Gentiles who come to worship Jesus

53:11and then you've got Herod and those evil Judeans

53:17who just wanna kill Jesus, right?

53:19And so this kind of dichotomy develops

53:22between the sort of good Gentiles and the bad Jews.

53:25And I'm, please, if you're listening to this on audio,

53:28see the scare quotes, the quote unquote bad Jews.

53:31I'm not, that's not my position.

53:33And so that is something that I found at a number of spots

53:38in the kind of early tradition,

53:39but it's also one of the things that I found

53:41in a very surprising place, which is a children's book.

53:45So I looked at an illustrated children's book

53:48that was put together a couple of years ago

53:51and I chose it at random off of Amazon.

53:53I just went on and I tried to find the most recent

53:56wise men book that I could just to say,

53:59like let's just do a random children's book.

54:01And I even found that sort of anti-Jewish rhetoric

54:04in the children's book of the way,

54:06the way that the Meijai are depicted, right?

54:10And they all come to Jerusalem

54:11and then they're dressed all nicely or whatever.

54:14And Herod is this like fat slob with yellow skin.

54:18And like, you know, he's just filthy, greasy, all of this.

54:23And then the fascinating thing was like looking at this text,

54:27but his children's book is an illustrated text.

54:29And so the images are as important as the words.

54:32And looking at, you know, when Herod and his advisors

54:37go to consult their archives,

54:41and which is clearly a reference to the Hebrew Bible,

54:45and the book talks about the musty smell that they give off,

54:50that the texts do.

54:51Because obviously the Judeans aren't reading their bias,

54:56right?

54:57And then, you know, you look at this image

54:59and Herod and his people are like crouched in the darkness,

55:02whereas the Meijai are waiting out in the courtyard

55:04in the full sunlight.

55:05And it's just this really, really fascinating,

55:07like not fascinating in a good way,

55:10but fascinating in this way of,

55:12the way that we've sort of moved to tell this story.

55:15And the way that people are learning about this story

55:18is very much instilling that kind of anti-Jewish rhetoric, right?

55:23As like, we've got the good Gentiles and the bad Jews.

55:27And so I found that in a children's book,

55:29which was not something I was expecting to find.

55:33I wasn't going and looking through children's books for it.

55:35I just picked this one up and I looked at it.

55:36I was like, well, damn.

55:37(all laughing)

55:40And so that's sort of a fascinating,

55:45but also in a bad way.

55:46The other, another kind of positive example,

55:52though is one of the books that I examine is Lamb,

55:57the gospel according to Biff,

55:59which is a fantastic novel.

56:01It's sort of a modern day infancy gospel in many ways,

56:05but in this novel, Jesus and his best friend Biff

56:09go off east down the Silk Road to find the Meijai

56:13to ask them, who is Jesus, right?

56:16'Cause Jesus is sort of like, I know I'm different.

56:18I know I'm God, I know I'm a Messiah, whatever,

56:20but I don't know what that means.

56:21And then there's a rabbi who's like,

56:24"Your mom said that these three dudes showed up

56:26"when you were born.

56:27"They seem to know something about you,

56:29"so why don't you go find them?"

56:31And so they do, they go off and find them

56:33and there's one of them's a Ethiopian magician,

56:36one of them's a Hindu renouncer,

56:38and then one of them's a Buddhist monk.

56:40And this book is fascinating because the entire thing

56:44sort of focuses on the question of what were the Meijai

56:49after when they came to visit Jesus.

56:51And one of them is in search of immortality

56:53and one of them's in search of enlightenment.

56:55So that sort of question of what were they after?

56:58And it's a really, really creative way of addressing that.

57:01- No, that's fun.

57:02And less supersessionism in that one.

57:05- Yeah, the book is problematic as well,

57:08but in terms of the story of the Meijai,

57:13I found less of the anti-judaism in that one.

57:16Yeah, which is refreshing.

57:18- What we're left with, if I can close us out

57:20with another pop culture reference

57:23is that you have completely ruined a song

57:27to the point where now it's we,

57:29an unspecified number of non-kings.

57:33All we have left is orient.

57:35We know that they were from the East, right?

57:37You're not taking that away from us, are you?

57:39- No, that's not a great word to use there, so.

57:42- I didn't write the song, Dan.

57:44(laughing)

57:46- Yeah, no, I mean, one of the things that I do

57:49is ruin things.

57:51And so that is, this should not be any surprise,

57:54but yes, we unspecified number of weirried travelers

57:59from an unspecified location, you know.

58:02(laughing)

58:03Yes, so, but if this.

58:05- If there's a theme to this show that we've learned,

58:08and to anyone who's followed Dan's TikToks or whatever,

58:12it's ruining, the whole show is about,

58:15it seems that the pursuit of biblical scholarship

58:18is largely about ruining fun things that we thought we knew.

58:22- Yeah, ruining or, as I prefer, complicating.

58:24- Yeah, and I prefer to say I show up, muddy the waters,

58:29and then scurry away.

58:30(laughing)

58:32- Much like the magi.

58:33- There you go, exactly.

58:35- Perfect.

58:36- If I had to go through graduate school,

58:38ain't nobody gets to be happy.

58:40(laughing)

58:42With all these stories soon.

58:44(laughing)

58:45- Oh, well, Eric, this has been delightful.

58:48Where can people find your book?

58:50Because I know that they're gonna wanna dive into it

58:53and get a lot more out of this thing.

58:56So talk to us about your book.

58:58- Yeah, absolutely.

58:59So the book is called "The Magi,"

59:02who they were, how they've been remembered,

59:04and why they still fascinate.

59:07So at the risk of sounding very cliche,

59:10it's wherever you get your books from.

59:13You can find this one.

59:14So it's online pretty much everywhere.

59:17Amazon, Barnes & Noble,

59:18and then also Fortress Press is the publisher,

59:21and their website is a great place to get it as well.

59:26But yeah, I hope you'll pick it up and read it,

59:28and connect with me if you got questions,

59:30or comments, or insults, or anything like that.

59:32- Oh, I wouldn't invite our listeners to come here.

59:34I don't think that's a good idea at all.

59:37- No, okay, definitely don't connect with me.

59:39I am inaccessible.

59:41I am a riddle wrapped in darkness, so.

59:45- But a wise man, nonetheless.

59:48- Oh, thank you, thank you.

59:50- Well, thank you, Eric Vanden Eichl for joining us today.

59:54We really appreciate it.

59:56Friends at home, thank you for joining us too.

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