Ep 30: Christian Nationalism Ain't Christian: With Andrew Whitehead

00:00Well, I think this is where, you know, our work around Christian nationalism actually

00:06is really helpful because I think, really, Trump just kind of pulled back the curtains

00:11of something that was always true, that it was about power.

00:14It was about getting the person of power who will give us access to power to make, you

00:20know, this world look like we hope it will, you know, as we interpret the Bible or think

00:25about, you know, the ways that it should look. And so I think that's the difference.

00:31Hey, everybody. I'm Dan McClellan. And I'm Dan Beacher. And you are listening to the

00:38Data Over Dogma podcast where we seek to increase the public's access to the academic study

00:43of the Bible and religion and combat the spread of misinformation about the same. How are things

00:49today, Dan? Things are great. I am looking forward to today's show. We've got an awesome

00:55guest. We've got a topic that will anger a whole group of people. So, you know, what

01:02could be better here for it. Yeah. Want to make the people happy? Give them what they

01:06want. That's right. For a lot of people is anger right now. Yeah. So why don't you introduce

01:12our guest? All right. Today we're going to be talking with Andrew Whitehead, who is professor

01:17of sociology at Indiana University Purdue University, Indianaapolis. Excuse me. So IUPUI.

01:26Just so we're all clear on that. And you whoopi, if you're feeling fun, where he co-directs

01:32the Association of Religion Data Archives in the Center for the Study of Religion and

01:36American Culture. Thank you so much for being here with us today, Andrew, and welcome to

01:41the Data Over Dogma podcast. Hey, thanks for having me. I'm really glad to be here with

01:45you guys. Yeah. So the first question I think is the obvious question, which is, why do you

01:51hate Christians? That's usually what some folks lead with. Yes. When you're talking

01:57about Christian nationalism, there's, you know, difficulty disentangling or seeing difference

02:02between the two. So yeah, I have had that question before for sure. Have you really? Okay.

02:06Well, I don't think that you actually do hate Christians. But yes, your specialty is in Christian

02:14nationalism. Will you give us a little bit of background on like how you got into studying

02:19that, what your background in it is and what angle you're coming at it from? Yeah, definitely.

02:27So I'm a social scientist, so a sociologist. And I specialize in analyzing large survey

02:34data as of the American public, so more quantitative. And so I got into that because I was just

02:41fascinated by religion like you both, and how American culture both shapes religion or

02:47Christianity, right, since that's the majority religion here. But then how Christianity has

02:52also shaped our culture and history. And so that's kind of professionally where I come

02:58at this. And Christian nationalism was something that, you know, I was interested in now a

03:05little over a decade ago when I started studying this, because it really kind of looks at the

03:11overlap between both politics and religion, right. And we know a lot about how politics

03:16shapes the way Americans think, and also how their personal religious, you know, piety

03:20shapes way they think. And Christian nationalism kind of looks at the overlap of both. And what

03:25we found is that it really does explain something above and beyond, like if they're, you know,

03:31Republican or Democrat, or if they pray a lot, or they don't affiliate with a religious

03:35tradition. So professionally, that's where I come from it at. But then also personally,

03:40I grew up in Northern Indiana, really religious area, really religious town and community.

03:46And so, you know, growing up, it was kind of taken for granted that the US is a Christian

03:51nation, and that to be a good American is to be Christian, and to be a good Christian,

03:57you know, ideally you'd be American. So there was really little, you know, tell Jesus,

04:02I know exactly. Well, he looked like us for sure. But I've seen the pictures, you're absolutely

04:09great. Yeah, I mean, Mike, yeah, my grandma, and maybe this is true of others, right? Like

04:14that famous Jesus picture of him just kind of looking to the side and flowing hair and

04:19very white. But yeah, so there was just little difference between the two. But then as I

04:24got older and, you know, going to university and grad school, just starting to see some

04:29of the cracks right of, well, what does that really mean if Christians and Americans right,

04:35you know, should be the same. And so yeah, that's kind of where I came at this study,

04:40both professionally and personally to just kind of disentangling some of what I'd been

04:45handed from, yeah, maybe what is more true or should be true.

04:51Now, we're one of the things we're here to talk about is a new book that you just published

04:56American idolatry, how Christian nationalism betrays the gospel and threatens the church,

05:02which is a wonderful discussion where you go a little bit into your own backstory talking

05:06about, for instance, taking mission trips down to Peru, where you had allergic reactions

05:11and didn't get to participate as much as you would have liked. And things like that. Can

05:18you talk a little bit about if you don't mind your graduate work and that moment of

05:24donning comprehension? Because that's something that a lot of people would love to see more

05:30folks who are mired in these ideologies confront and realize there's something more going on

05:39here. What was it that helped you figure out that you were kind of there was water around

05:46you that you were swimming in that you didn't even realize was there?

05:49Yeah, definitely. I think it was a number of different moments looking back that kind

05:55of served as almost like pebbles in the shoe, where I just couldn't quite get past it.

06:00And I think too, that's why I enjoy your podcasts and others do too, where it just provides

06:06this different take on it, a slightly different view where now, I don't know, the light is

06:12refracted just differently enough where you start to see maybe what else is going on.

06:18And so there were different moments. One was some of the music I listened to growing up,

06:22where these were Christian bands, so they were okay for us to listen to, but then they

06:26were talking about Native American genocide. And that's not something that we heard about

06:30really in school very much, or especially in church. But it starts to make you think,

06:36well, yeah, if we were a Christian nation, why were we acting in this way? When at church

06:41we're told to love our neighbors, or we would go to these different countries and want to

06:45save them and evangelize. So there was those type of moments, or even too, as a freshman

06:53at Purdue University, taking American history course from a specialist in the founding period

06:59and hearing him talk about religion and the religion of the founding fathers, and what

07:05it really looked like. Because we hear stories of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson,

07:10they were evangelical just like, you know, all of the evangelicals today. And then actually

07:17seeing, well, what were they writing? What were they saying? And so those were some different

07:21moments. But then I think too, yeah, in graduate school, being able to look at a lot of the

07:27social science around this, and as we measure Christian nationalism, and then see what it's

07:31associated with, like for Americans that strongly embrace it, you know, they really embrace a

07:37lot of things that, to me, growing up in these kind of Christian spaces, really didn't look

07:44like what they were telling us to do, or what Jesus was telling us to do, or that we were

07:49supposed to do. And so that's two where I started to wonder, you know, exactly what this was.

07:54And by grad school, I had kind of walked away from a lot of that Christian nationalism. But

08:00then that kind of helped put a framework around it. And so then with this book, kind of telling

08:04both those stories and trying to show that, and it's written to a Christian audience. So

08:10I'm trying to help folks see that you don't have to necessarily walk away from Christianity.

08:16There are expressions of it that confront and oppose this kind of politicized Christian

08:22nationalism that only tends to benefit a particular group. So yeah, to try and provide people

08:29that way out, because it's a lot to ask, you know, just walk away from everything, like,

08:34they really aren't going to listen to that. But maybe, you know, we can provide some resources

08:39to go elsewhere. So that's kind of part of that story.

08:43Maybe before we go much further, we should actually stop and define what Christian nationalism

08:49is.

08:50And like we've talked about this, you know, I don't like definitions. Okay, maybe we should

08:57find ways of discussing it so that we're all on the same page, Dan. Yeah, that's something

09:04that frustrates me about sociology is always wanting to define stuff. I guess there's there's

09:09a methodological need there. So yeah, yeah, so that's where I'll come from it as and and

09:14this is the thing too, because I totally, you know, understand where you're coming from,

09:20where you know, that's the first question I usually get in any interview, right, is define

09:24it. And, you know, there's folks that maybe are put off by this work or think that we're,

09:30you know, we hate Christianity or whatever else. And, you know, they'll say, well, we

09:34don't even have a good definition. We don't even know what it is. But I think, you know,

09:39empirically, we can come to it and understand these are the things that are associated. What

09:44are the different elements of it that kind of give us an outline, right? And so the way

09:48that, you know, through our different studies, we're able to understand what what we're talking

09:53about here is a desire for a very particular expression of Christianity to be privileged

09:59in public life and for the government to preserve and protect that framework as the organizing

10:06framework of the United States. And so I think what's what's helpful there is that the key

10:12phrase is the particular expression of Christianity. So this is a particularly politically and

10:17religiously conservative strand, right? And so a lot of the work that you all do on this

10:22podcast and others, like how we interpret the Bible, what is the Bible? What does it mean?

10:27You know, how do we, how do we know what they were talking about and saying, you know, this

10:31expression of Christianity is going to have very particular views on some of those things

10:36that help undergird, right? Their vision for what American society should look like or

10:41who should truly have access to the benefits of being a citizen. And so I think that's

10:47where, you know, the overlap is so important and understanding what the Bible is, what

10:53it means, how we think about it. I think provides really helpful resources too, as kind of an

10:59off ramp, whether it's folks struggling, you know, with Christian nationalism as Christians

11:03or those who are secular, but they know folks, right? We all, you know, we're going to be

11:08connected to folks that maybe embrace it and just having some of those resources, I think,

11:12are important. So that's, that's what we're talking about when we're talking about Christian

11:16nationalism.

11:17And I know when you were talking earlier about the founding fathers and something that came

11:22into my mind is a painting that I'm sure Dan has seen in homes around Utah and probably

11:28elsewhere. I know I've seen in many places and even in other countries, is Washington

11:33on his knee at Valley Forge, hands clasped in prayer. I've seen giant versions of that

11:40painting and in people's living rooms. And part of this is kind of generating that sense

11:48of this is a type of Christianity that we're about. And it's tying it into the founding

11:53of the nation as a way to try to link our identity now with their identity then saying

11:59we're part of the same story, the same narrative. They are just like us. And I think a lot of

12:06people, they are sold on that narrative and then are blissfully unaware of the kinds of

12:15data that come out of research into things like Christian nationalism. And I wonder if

12:21you could share some of the, someone who is maybe swimming in those, in those waters,

12:29some of the data points that are more striking when it comes to how different Christian nationalism

12:36is from how we, someone functioning from inside the system might think about it.

12:42Yeah, definitely. So, you know, we look at and measure Christian nationalism, a number

12:48of the things that we find that it's strongly associated with. One element is a desire for

12:54like a strict moral hierarchy of who's at the top in American society, who's in the

12:58middle, who's at the bottom. And that oftentimes revolves around gender and sexuality. So men

13:04and heterosexuality, those are the things that, you know, will place you near the top.

13:09And then everyone else comes after. And another element is strict ethno racial boundaries around,

13:16you know, how we idealize and think about American identity as a nation, but then to

13:22a true American, to where essentially this country was built and made by and for white

13:31Christians, essentially. And again, with everyone else coming after. And then to another element

13:37is a real comfort with authoritarian social control. So the world is viewed as a chaotic

13:43place. And sometimes we need strong rules and strong rulers to come in and enforce order,

13:49kind of like that moral hierarchy or those ethno racial boundaries, making sure that those

13:54are in place. And then another element too is, you know, kind of this populist impulse of

14:01feeling victimized and persecuted by elites by those with power and always coming after

14:09quote unquote us. And then, you know, moving from there makes folks really kind of open

14:15to conspiratorial thinking. And again, you know, embracing these explanations of what

14:20actually is happening and where we go from there. And that can, you know, go towards kind

14:24of, you know, straight up conspiracy theory, like you and on, or to just how they interpret

14:31the Bible, or you know what we're going through right now and how they're viewing any sort

14:35of war in the Middle East, right, like the apocalyptic thinking and what all is happening

14:40there. And so those elements are all we find on playing into this when we measure it. And

14:46then beyond that, you know, we could talk about specific kind of views of race and views

14:55of immigration or xenophobia and all these other things that it's strongly connected

14:59with. And again, really, it's it revolves around those elements of enforcing a moral

15:05order through the threat or through violence, ethno racial boundaries and a populist impulse.

15:12All those things are, you know, at play when we're looking at what it means for folks.

15:16You know, it occurs to me that it may not be immediately obvious to everyone listening.

15:22What what could be the problem with some of those those things? I mean, there may be people

15:28listening who think I believe in a moral hierarchy, I believe in, you know, I, I like

15:35the idea of, you know, a top down authority that that will keep our keep us safe. So so

15:43talk a little bit about why you think this might not be as good a thing as people might

15:49think it is. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Well, and I think this is where, you know, the the

15:54lines of social science and kind of empirical support for what it is then crosses over to

15:59normative claims, right? And so when, you know, for me as like a human being living in the

16:05United States, I come to this and see what it's associated with, I move beyond the evidence

16:11of, well, I know this is what it's associated with. But whether that's good or bad, right?

16:15Social science wouldn't have anything to say on that just that this is the elements that's

16:20strongly associated with. But I think for me, then it's moving beyond that as like a human

16:25being in person where I think, well, living in a pluralistic democratic society appeals

16:30to me where, you know, certain folks are automatically marginalized or oppressed, even though that

16:36is a part of our nation's history. But, you know, my values and beliefs come to the point

16:41where I think I think it would be better if we allowed folks that have been marginalized

16:45to play a part and to have access to the democratic process. And again, that's moving, that's

16:51me moving beyond, you know, my social scientist hat and putting on my, you know, normative

16:56hat of I think this would be better. And so at that point, that's where, yeah, I kind

17:02of lead the evidence. Like, if you think it is better that white people marry white people,

17:10I don't agree with you, but we know that Christian nationalism is associated with more discomfort

17:15towards interracial marriage, right? And that's again, where the evidence social science

17:20hands us. For me, I think, you know, then leads on to where I kind of start to think

17:27about, well, is this a is this a country? Is this a society that I would want to live

17:30in if this really was the organizing framework? But again, I, you know, we have to leave it

17:35to folks to make that decision. But I think more and more as folks see what it is associated

17:40with, I think it should become clear that this would be detrimental, right, to flourish,

17:46like other groups flourishing and being able to take part. But yeah, I can.

17:51Is there something maybe you can confirm this or talk about this in a way that, you

17:58know, that will sort of, I have a sense of, you know, when I was growing up, I remember,

18:03you know, I'm 40 something years old. I don't remember exactly which, but I'm pretty old.

18:08And I, I remember growing up, America was talked about a like I heard phrases like melting

18:17pot all the time. I taught I heard like there was this idea that it was supposed to be lots

18:24of people from lots of different areas, you know, parts of the world, different ethnic

18:30ethnicities and different, you know, and it was supposed to bring them together. And we

18:35were all supposed to embrace elements of everybody's background. It doesn't feel like that's

18:42happening as much anymore. Has there been a change since 300 years ago when I was a kid

18:48to now or like, because it feels like it's different. Yeah, no, I think it really is.

18:54So even if we look at the Republican Party and their platform as one example, right?

18:59So in the 80s, when I was growing up, when we were growing up, how they thought about

19:04immigration was actually almost distinctly opposite to how they view it now. And so there

19:09has been a change, right? So Reagan and the first Bush, right? It was a lot of like that

19:16type of language where this is a great country, like people should be coming in this laissez-faire

19:20capitalism, like, you know, workers coming, bringing their skill sets. This is great.

19:26But that has really changed. And I think the, you know, Obama presidency is a part of that,

19:31like activating some of these darker impulses responding to that. And so we have seen a

19:37complete shift to where, you know, kids growing up within white evangelicalism now, I think

19:42would have a very different experience than I did growing up in white evangelicalism, where

19:46we kind of didn't really think about immigration that much. It really wasn't a big issue. Whereas

19:50now it's a big issue for those that embrace Christian nationalism. So I think your sense

19:56is correct. I think kind of historically empirically, we can see that, that difference. Yeah. So

20:03where we go from there, what this means broadly going into the future, I think there are obviously

20:08implications of that, but I don't think you're, yeah, that that is a similar experience that

20:13I've had thinking about the past as well. I see two trends developing in the last few

20:17decades, at least since I've been alive. One is that white evangelical Christians are

20:22a smaller portion of the population every year. And you talk a bit about in the book,

20:27you have a chapter on this fear of losing access to power. And you also talk briefly

20:35about something that I've studied a little bit on my own related to some of the right

20:40wing authoritarian ideologies that have become central identity markers to Christian nationalism

20:46these days, thanks to folks like Falwell and Yric and others in the seventies. And you

20:53talk about how a lot of this is, if not directly in response to at least facilitated by concern

21:02for, well, the, the rulings regarding race in American universities and things like that.

21:11I know Bob Jones University and Jerry Falwell, and they went on campaigns around the country

21:16to try to convince Christians to get into politics, basically gin up a religious right

21:22because they wanted to try to put a stop to attempts to make them admit black students

21:28to their universities. Is this fear, is this part of the same kind of trajectory? Do you

21:34think that started back in the early seventies? Or do you think this is something broader

21:41than that?

21:42Yeah, I think a lot of what we're living through right now, thinking about Christian nationalism

21:47and white evangelicalism and a lot of kind of the cultural work that's happening around

21:51that really is in response to and is kind of like a direct descendant of the rise of

21:57the moral majority and the religious right in the seventies and eighties as they were

22:00responding to the cultural people of the sixties, whether it's the civil rights movement or

22:06the women's movement or, you know, sexuality and those norms. And so I think a lot of what

22:13we see today really is kind of the, the after effects and the continuation of that work.

22:21And so if we want to look to it, you know, at 2016 and Trump, some would say, Oh, wow, he,

22:26you know, was kind of this surprise. And for most folks looking at it historically, right,

22:32he is kind of the natural endpoint of all that work in the seventies and eighties where

22:36it really is about fear and fear of the changing ground around us quote unquote us right that

22:44this country is going more diverse, both religiously, racially and ethnically. And then, you know,

22:51with that fear is so powerful as a political motivator because, you know, as you said,

22:58most white evangelicals weren't actively involved in politics. It was a pretty dormant

23:04voting block, but they were able to get them in and voting in a particular way. And it's

23:09only continued, you know, even with 2016 and 2020, those are the highest numbers of white

23:15evangelicals voting for Republicans ever. And so they are solidly within that camp.

23:21And so I think, yeah, that political work by those operatives has paid off and has aligned

23:29these groups almost identically and fear and fear of losing privilege access to power

23:35is a key part of that.

23:37One of the things that really surprised me with especially with the first Trump campaign

23:43was that he kept showing himself to be something that seemed in opposition to what you would

23:54imagine these sort of this Christian populace, right, you know, this, this is the grab them

24:00by the candidate. You know what I mean? This is not who I would have imagined evangelical

24:09Christianity rallying around. He says he's Christian, but like, we don't see any like

24:16up until his run for office, I never saw anything that indicated any kind of Christianity to

24:23me in him. He didn't regularly attend church. He didn't, you know, there was, you know,

24:29he would say two Corinthians. He didn't know how we talk about the Bible. You know what

24:33I mean? Yeah.

24:34So, so how do we explain that? The, the embrace of a man who very much seemed anathema to,

24:42to Christianity. Yeah. Well, I think this is where, you know,

24:46our work around Christian nationalism actually is really helpful because, you know, it isn't

24:51as though Trump was the first Republican candidate that used religious rhetoric, right, or talked

24:56about, you know, we're going to ensure that this country, you know, is aligning with God's

25:01purposes and whether that's, you know, pro-life or whatever else, right? He, he was falling

25:07right in the line with past Republican presidents. But I think he provided the perfect test of

25:12the power of this Christian nationalist rhetoric because he personally and individually, as

25:18you're pointing out, didn't really claim or care to, you know, externally align with Christian

25:26piety as we broadly might understand it or as past presidents, understood it and said

25:32and talked about it, right? So he really was kind of the perfect test of if you promise

25:38this group power, right, and Christian nationalism is focused on privilege access to power within

25:44the culture. If you promise them power, will they align with you? Even if you aren't necessarily

25:49religious, like they would say, oh, this is a, you know, a moral upstanding Christian we

25:53need to put into power. And he, he wasn't and they did, right? Like they fell into line

25:59and there's a great data point where, you know, a decade earlier asking white evangelicals,

26:06you know, does a leader need to be moral in order to lead well? And it was like 70% said,

26:11yes, 30% said no, and this is really in response to the Clinton years, right? Like he was,

26:17you know, kind of this, this guy in the White House and really a moral, he needs to get

26:21out of there. That was a lot of the talk. Well, then that same question is asked when

26:26Trump was a candidate president and it was a complete flip. Now, white evangelicals,

26:3170% said no, you don't need to be moral. You don't need to be upstanding to be a good

26:37political leader. And so it was a, I think really Trump just kind of pulled back the

26:43curtains of something that was always true, that it was about power and access to privileged

26:47political power. That was the goal. It wasn't getting the right people in power, although

26:52you'll still hear that narrative. It was about getting the person of power who will

26:57give us access to power to make, you know, this world look like we hope it will, you

27:04know, as we interpret the Bible or think about, you know, the ways that it should look. And

27:08so I think that's, that's the difference. You say give us access. It also seems very

27:14clear that it's not just about giving us access. It's about denying them access, denying power

27:21to them. And it feels like us versus them becomes incredibly important in this discussion.

27:28It does. I think you're exactly right. It draws very strict boundaries around who has

27:33access to the democratic process. And honestly, it is a threat to democracy, right? This idea

27:39that we will, you know, respect the, our political opponents play by the same rules, you know,

27:48use at least similar sources of information to make good faith arguments about the way

27:53we think things should operate, right? So thinking about the guardrails of democracy,

27:57like in the book, How Democracies Die, right? Christian nationalism is opposed to that because

28:02again, it has a particular vision. And if you believe God has given you this group a vision for

28:09what this world should look like, if democracy stands in the way, then do away with it. Like,

28:15why would we go against what God wants just because we value democracy? And I think that's

28:21the calculus, right? That's the logic that we know what this world needs to look like to flourish.

28:26And we will impose that and it's a zero sum game as you're pointing out. Like, we need power to do

28:32that. And you can't have it if we're going to do what we need to do. Dan, I wonder if you and Andrew

28:39could have a conversation. I'm not, I'm, I'm going to ask for a conversation that I'm not

28:43versed enough in to actually be useful for. But I want to talk a little bit since our show is about

28:49the Bible about Bible versus that, that Christian nationalists run to about Bible ideas and stories.

29:00I know one thing I'll say is that, like, for instance, I saw in the evolution of Donald Trump,

29:06when when Trump first started to run, before some controversial things came up, I saw Christians

29:14talking about him and calling him David. And then, and then when more controversial stuff came up,

29:21suddenly they were calling him, what is this? Cyrus?

29:25It was the king, the king who's not one of us, but, but nevertheless, in acts, good things or

29:33whatever. I called the Messiah in Isaiah. Oh, wow. Yeah. Okay. Well, there you go. So, so yeah,

29:40talk a little bit, the two of you about sort of what you see, what you see the biblical

29:48justifications for that perspective being used and, and how valid is their argument? Yeah. And I

29:56think that's a great discussion from, from my perspective as a biblical scholar and a cognitive

30:00scientist of religion, I am really interested in the way that we negotiate with the text because

30:05the texts have no inherent meaning. They mean whatever we agree they mean. And there's a lot of

30:12renegotiating going on in order to make the text serve our interests, just like this discussion

30:18about Donald Trump. I remember Clinton and the Lewinsky affair and everyone saying if he cheats

30:25on his wife, he will cheat on the country. That was the foundation of conservative opposition

30:31to Bill Clinton. And I wonder where all those people went. There are certainly many of them

30:38still alive in 2016, who all of a sudden we're saying we're electing a leader, not a pastor. Yeah,

30:45that was the refrain I kept hearing. And it's so, so remarkable within just a couple of decades

30:51to have what is considered a central identity marker be negotiated away so thoroughly. And the

30:59same can happen with the Bible. And you talk quite a bit about a number of passages in your book from

31:05the from the Bible that seem to conflict with some of the directions that Christian nationalists

31:12are wanting to go and some of the ideologies. But that doesn't mean that they don't have passages

31:17to which they appeal to to support their ideologies. What are some that you have come across the most

31:25frequently in your research? Yeah, well, this is what I was excited about too is, you know,

31:30getting some of these verses out there and letting Dan cook a little bit with what we're talking

31:36about. So one, one big one, right? And so post 9/11, this was everywhere. And I think

31:42too, that was obviously a really big pivotal moment in kind of how Christian nationalism operates

31:47in the US. But we still see this today. And I think it really does undergird a lot of kind of the

31:53cultural framework itself. So it's second chronicles 714. And in this version, it says, if my people

32:01who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their

32:06wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven. And I'll forgive their sin and we'll heal their land.

32:12And so I'll heal their land. That's a that's a big one right there. Yeah, that's a big one.

32:17So yeah, I was wondering too, like, okay, so how do you come to that? What's the way that we can

32:23understand that and to in responding to those around us who might use that verse because I still

32:27see it used by folks that embrace Christian nationalism today. This is an interesting one,

32:34the book of books of chronicles come from the exotic post-exilic period. And I think one of the

32:40most important parts of understanding what's going on in any biblical text is first trying to figure

32:45out who's writing it, when they're writing, why they're writing to whom they are writing,

32:50because that helps us understand why they're saying what they're saying. And this is something

32:54that a lot of I'm sure Christian nationalists, at least a lot of conservative Christians are used

32:58to doing when it's something that they don't like in the text, where they contextualize it away,

33:06where they say, Oh, well, in this time period, this was going on. So slavery was everywhere. And God,

33:12you know, had to play the game. So you've got this explicit endorsement of chattel slavery in

33:19Leviticus. But we don't need to deal with that anymore. And when you look at second chronicles,

33:25I mean, even the verse before 713, it talks about God shedding up the heaven so that there's no rain,

33:32so that locust devour the lands and pestilence among my people. This is kind of a stereotypical

33:39punishment from the storm deity from the weather God. I'm going to send famine. I'm going to send

33:45drought in order to punish you. And this is one of the ways, anciently, that they would

33:50account for crises that they were experiencing, whether it was drought famine, or being defeated

33:59by another nation being subjected to a vassal state or something like that. It was never that

34:07the other God won. Well, almost never at one time it was at the other God one. But in the Bible,

34:13most of the time it's that Oh, God is angry with us. And so God is punishing us. And so when we get

34:20to verse 14, the idea is that we've got to repent and turn back to God and stop worshiping

34:26the other gods. That's usually the biggest problem. And particularly here with Solomon,

34:32as Solomon had too many wives, it wasn't that you were only allowed one have a bunch of wives,

34:38but Solomon just had too many 700 is pushing it. Yeah, overdoing it just a skosh. And so

34:45he starts worshiping the gods of these these foreign wives and things like that. And so idolatry

34:51always seems to be at the root of whatever's going on here. And so we have the statement,

34:58and I'll read from the well, you already read it, but in the NRSV called the people called by my name,

35:05which would be the Israelites, the people of Adonai, pray, seek my face, which is an interesting

35:11reference to a commandment that the Israelites are given to see the face of God three times a

35:17year, or at least the male Israelites are given that commandment. God will hear from heaven will

35:21forgive their sin and heal the land here as a reference to opening up the heavens,

35:27ending the drought, ending the famine, and restoring the natural order, the way things are supposed

35:33to be the cosmic order. I don't understand how this is appealed to as anything other than a

35:40reference to ancient punishment using drought and things like that. I mean, too, it's common for

35:47people to prove texts by wrenching things from their context. And you talk in your book about how

35:53Christian nationalism is in many ways promoting idolatry. It is seeking after power. It is putting

36:04something before its commitment to God, to Jesus, and specifically this access to power. And so

36:13there could be, there's an argument to make that the problems are being caused by Christian nationalism

36:19engaging in idolatry by putting its access to power ahead of what God expects. And so this verse

36:26could be turned around on Christian nationalists to say, you need to humble yourselves. You need to

36:32seek God's face. And then you should put that as the title of your book or something.

36:36And you know, maybe healing the land is going to be more democracy and maybe less fewer people

36:48upset about a pluralistic society. But yeah, the notion that this is utilitarian for Christian

36:56nationalists just baffles me. Well, it is what's what's interesting about that verse is that it is

37:01kind of like if you if you do take it out of the context and just say that this can be applied

37:06however I want to. Yeah. It's a remarkably generic verse. It doesn't say much of anything. So

37:15they could just use it to beat to mean whatever it is they decide it's going to mean. And, and, and

37:22also I think generic language actually helps them. Because I think I think when we're talking about

37:27Christian nationalism, they often you they often have to use dog whistle level things because they

37:34know that the racism that's inherent in their movement is not going to fly. They know that the,

37:42you know, that the ethno centricities that that their insular, that the insular nature of what

37:51they're saying, if they say it too overtly, it becomes something that that people who wouldn't

38:01normally notice would suddenly get upset about. So it does seem to me, and you tell me, Andrew,

38:08if this is true, but it seems like they use purposefully a lot of very sort of generic language

38:16to mask some of the more what I would call nefarious angles of their of their movement.

38:24Yeah. No, I think I think that's right on and with what both of you are saying. And I think

38:28what's what can be so fascinating too is this kind of whether it's, you know,

38:34ignorance and not just knowing it and not ignorance in like a derogatory way, but just like not

38:39aware of it or aware of it and then actively just ignoring it and not wanting to own up to it.

38:46But this idea that there are various expressions of the Christian faith that calm all of them come

38:52with cultural baggage, you could say. And so Christian nationalism is one of those and, you know,

38:58progressive or whatever types of expressions of Christianity have cultural baggage too. And I

39:05think that a verse like this, as you're saying, is so useful because if we talk about wickedness,

39:11right? It has wicked ways in there or what sin is, right? All of those is, you know, you all

39:16point out over and over, those are culturally determined, right? They are going to come to those

39:21things with visions of what that means. So is wicked ways and sin is that, you know,

39:27looking back at Hurricane Katrina and, you know, Robertson, Pat Robertson going on and saying,

39:34well, it's because of the voodoo and, you know, homosexuality. That's why this hurricane came or

39:41is wicked ways in sin, you know, this kind of rampant capitalism where we have, you know, kids

39:46going hungry at school. Well, that seems wicked too, but one of those this group will say is wicked

39:53and sin and another they won't. And so, you know, I'll have interactions with some folks

39:58on Twitter sometimes where, you know, visions of kind of what they say is wickedness or sin.

40:05They're like, well, this is just Christianity, right? This is just 2000 years of Orthodox Christianity

40:11and that's it. Even though, you know, like the word homosexuality is relatively recent and, you know,

40:20and all of that is just completely ignored or missed. And so yeah, I agree with this type of verse,

40:25it just allows for that cultural baggage to stay hidden, right? And looked at and argued that,

40:32well, this is just what Christians have always believed, right? We're just bringing this faith,

40:36just this Christianity pure and true to this present day.

40:41There's a and something that a conversation that I was engaging on Twitter recently

40:47kind of reminds me, Dan, of your point about how there's a lot going on under the surface that is

40:51making use of rather generic terminology and themes. Someone posted a photograph of eight or nine

40:59white men who were dressed up in military gear and they were a part of a group that had its own name,

41:07had its own patches, had its own flag, and they were engaged in paramilitary training. And they said

41:14that this group was going to play a role as the world prepares for the second coming of Jesus.

41:20And I referred to this as a dangerously ignorant level of dogmatism. And I got that basic response

41:30was that what's wrong with this specifically? And it's like, well, tell me who, you know, what this

41:35role is that you're going to play? It's like, oh, we're protecting our families. You don't go to

41:39paramilitary training to learn how to protect your own family. Who is the enemy you're preparing

41:45to fight? And I never got a straight answer. It was always dodging because I think they know

41:53what the answer is. And I think they know everybody else can tell what the answer is,

41:58but that gives away the store for them to acknowledge that this is right wing authoritarianism,

42:05social dominance, orientation, and Christian nationalism. That was that was something that was

42:10they were going to feign ignorance, openly feign ignorance, rather than acknowledge that reality.

42:17I wonder if we could put all of this into an international context, because so far we've

42:24been talking about a sort of American Christian nationalism. But it occurs to me that it's not

42:32a far cry from, you know, from from what we see in, in, you know, heavily Muslim countries or,

42:41you know, neuroendromody and, and, and, and the Hindu nationalism of that's currently taking over

42:47in India. And it seems like the same, is it the same types of problems? Are there,

42:54are there fundamental differences between, you know, American Christian nationalism and what we

43:00see it with other religions and other nations or, you know, talk a little bit about that.

43:05Yeah. Yeah. There's nothing really unique about Christianity as a world religion that is

43:11associated with, with nationalism and this type of kind of obsession with political power and

43:17cultural power. And also nothing really unique about the United States. So as we look at how dare

43:23you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Other countries are good at this too, where I think, yeah, the majority

43:29world religion there, it's so easily kind of intertwined with those that are seeking for

43:35political power. And, and it makes sense, right? That, well, hey, God or the gods want us, you know,

43:42to be in power so that this nation is the way that it should be. And if that kind of language

43:49resonates with the folks around you, it's incredibly powerful and folks will fall on the line. And so,

43:55you know, an interesting test of that is, and there was an article written in Slate Molly Olmsted,

44:03where she was looking at Ranswani and how he is Hindu, but he was appealing to Christian nationalism

44:10as a Hindu, right? But yes, we need to embrace Christian nationalism here. And so it's this

44:16interesting test of, you know, he personally, again, isn't Christian, right? But appealing

44:22to this narrative. And so, yeah, as we look at the United States and Christian nationalism,

44:27that's just kind of the flavor that we have here. But it does exist elsewhere. And it has existed

44:33for Christianity and other nations throughout history, right? Since Christianity came on the

44:40scene and kind of finally got to that point of political power. So yeah, I think you're right on.

44:46It's these types of the rhetoric and the social mechanisms of how it serves these groups

44:54exist, you know, outside of a particular country or religion, we see it happening across the globe

45:01and throughout history. And it's really kind of innate to the human experience and human cognition.

45:07And in cognitive science of religion, we talk about this a lot and how even the category of religion

45:13is kind of an artificial boundary where these features, the in group, out group dynamics,

45:19and our concern to protect the social identities that are important to us and seek to advance

45:24their interests. That occurs within and outside of religion. And I think it's helpful. You mentioned

45:33a Hindu promoting Christian nationalism. A lot of people don't like to distinguish an individual

45:40from the system within which they function and operate and from which they benefit. And you can

45:46have people benefiting from systems that are designed to benefit another group. That kind of

45:53thing happens all the time. And and I think it's, this is one of the ways that a lot of folks mask

45:59what's going on, because they don't individually feel like this is a problem of theirs, even if they

46:05are serving a system that collectively is advancing those very, those very interests. And I think

46:12that's such an important thing that sociology does is tries to identify where systems are operating.

46:18And some people may be seeking to benefit from systems unconsciously, not aware of what they're

46:26doing, which is why it's so important that people become aware that Christian nationalism is a thing.

46:31Yeah. Yeah. What's what's another passage? Yeah. We're gonna we're gonna hop to the New Testament

46:40now. So Romans 13 one. And this has a really, you know, a great example of what's going on here.

46:48So this passage, at least the translation, actually, I didn't write down the exact translation,

46:54but I'll let you, you know, use the one that you want. But essentially saying, you know,

46:58let Paul is writing, let everyone be subject to the governing authorities for there is no authority

47:02except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. And so

47:08the backstory to this is during the Trump administration, Attorney General Jeff Sessions, when they were

47:14talking about border policies of what they would do with folks that were coming across the border

47:20undocumented, where they would go, how they were housed, right? That was obviously a big issue.

47:27And he essentially in a press conference, literally appealed to Romans 13 one and essentially was

47:33saying, Hey, you need to all be in subject to the governing authorities. We are the governing

47:39authorities and that should be it. Right. And so, yes, that is one that you see and two, I guess we

47:46can circle back to when they would say Romans 13 one is usually when they're in power and when

47:51they're not right, right? Not gonna use it. But yeah, that's another one that you'll hear. So

47:55I'm wondering, yeah, what do we do with that? Well, and again, we've got to situate this

48:01within Paul. Paul is writing to Romans. So writing to people who are participants in the Roman Empire

48:07and some of them probably have access to different kinds of power and authority. So they are probably

48:13some of these authorities among them. And what a lot of people refuse to do when they're when

48:19they're reading Paul is understand that Paul is writing to a group of people with the understanding

48:24that the second coming is imminent, that it is going to happen within their lifetimes, that the time

48:30is short so much so that he says, a rule I lay down in every single congregation is that you stay

48:36in the circumstances. You were in when God called you. We don't have time for anything else, basically.

48:42And so Paul is not late. This is not this is a decree for all time and in all places. Paul is

48:49referring to a specific authority. And he's writing to the people who represent that authority saying

48:56we should be subject to these specific people. However, they're really under God's supervision.

49:07And this is a way to say, don't worry about the Romans. God is in charge. But we're going to be

49:13good citizens or we're going to be good servants of the Roman Empire. And the notion that this is

49:21something that can be generalized and universalized and is something that holds in all times in all

49:26places is clearly precluded by the activity of the folks who appeal to it themselves. I mean,

49:33January 6 was not an example of being subject to the governing authorities. The American Revolution

49:41was not an example of being subject to the governing authorities. The Exodus was not an example of

49:48being subject to the governing authorities. The notion that this can be wrenched not only out of

49:53context, but out of the rhetorical context that that I am mired in is just ridiculous.

50:00Well, if you talk to anyone who appealed to that particular thing during the Trump administration,

50:06shouldn't that mean that they have to also believe it during a Biden administration? Like it seems

50:12like the picking and choosing is pretty extreme by that point.

50:18Well, and here's the thing. This is something that I've said for many years now. There's no such

50:22thing as a biblical literalist. They do not exist. Period. Never has been one because it's impossible.

50:28Not only does the text contradict itself over and over again, but people are in different

50:33circumstances when they approach the text and the texts are going to be useful and meaningful to them

50:38when they're being interpreted in different ways. And so what they tend to be literal about is their

50:44own dogmas. And in the case of Christian nationalism, they're going to read the text in whatever way

50:51serves their structuring of power and serves their ability to maximize their access to that power.

50:59And so if it means you have to interpret this one over here figuratively, you have to

51:04this one over here literally today, but tomorrow figuratively, and this one over here, you have to

51:09ignore. That's what's going to happen because the priority is that access to power. And anybody who

51:17says otherwise is selling you something because there are so many passages in the Bible that just

51:25make people uncomfortable. And they're not going to acknowledge that they say what they say.

51:30And we've brought it up on this podcast before, for instance, where God says,

51:35sacrifice your firstborn child to me. That one real quick. Yeah. They got uncomfortable with.

51:43So, and you know, in the same chapter, you have, in fact, I think it's just the verse before,

51:49do not revile the gods. That's an odd thing for God to say in the book of Exodus. But

51:55yeah, this this is something that that is will set me off very easily.

52:02All right. Well, all right. Andrew, you have convinced me. I don't think that I like Christian

52:08nationalism. I don't feel that I think it's a good idea. We're going to take a quick break. And when

52:12we come back, Andrew will tell us how to fix it all. And he'll save us all from this problem.

52:20Okay, so Andrew, here we are. We're in a moment in our in our nation's history that is alarmingly

52:28like I was telling Dan earlier, I was I was I was looking at a Twitter thread. Apparently,

52:35we're all still on Twitter. I don't know why that's happening. I was looking at a Twitter thread the

52:40other day and saw Christian nationalists embracing that moniker and taught like it used to be like

52:49if you called someone a Christian nationalist, even if they were one, they would take offense.

52:54No, that's not what I am. Now, some of them are owning it and being like, Hey, why are you down on

52:59CN? CN's cool, man, blah, blah, blah. So there was even a book, The Case for Christian National

53:05where you got my new tattoo. Yeah, exactly. So what what do we do? What's what's the counter here?

53:13What's what's the way that we can sort of wrench back a little bit of a little bit of that time

53:19of your when we actually thought that everybody, you know, when we were moving toward racial acceptance

53:26and cultural inclusion? Yeah, yeah, well, you know, I think that's a really interesting kind of

53:33change that we've seen even over the last five years, right? And so, you know, the work, you know,

53:38even on y'all's podcasts, where you talk about rhetorical moves that people make. So this adoption

53:44of the moniker Christian nationalists, right, it's a move to essentially try to redefine what the

53:52term is and it's kind of a power play, right? Because if you can say, well, this is what it means and

53:58this is what I'm saying, I just love America, right? So that's all Christian nationalism is,

54:04I just love America. Then they're able to really kind of ignore, you know, some of the evidence that

54:11we or others are pointing out. And and I always like to say too, that I always like to talk in

54:15terms of Christian nationalism. So the cultural framework rather than labeling folks, because

54:21you don't want to centralize people, right? That they're just this and that's it or whatever. And

54:26we know too with our studies that there's a range of acceptance, right? Some folks embrace it strongly,

54:32others are kind of in the middle and that matters, right? How strongly they embrace it. But for those

54:38folks that are saying, well, this is what it means and we just adopt this label or trying to change

54:43kind of the definition of it or ignore the empirical research. I think there's a number of things to

54:49do off the bat. And in one, you know, is thinking about the country that we live in and the political

54:56process we're a part of or at least that the country has aspired to, right? So we're actually

55:01a really young democracy. So it wasn't until the 60s where we literally kind of allowed everyone,

55:08you know, for the most part to take part. And so, you know, that's not very long ago. And so it is

55:14actually a really short experiment. And a lot of the moves being made by those folks who embrace

55:21Christian nationalism or otherwise is to again, define out of kind of existence those who can take

55:29part in democracy. So I think one way to, you know, counter or to push back is to try and keep track

55:38of where are voting rights being limited, right? Where are groups trying to keep others from taking

55:44part in American democracy? So at the state level, community level, whatever else, this could again,

55:50you know, extend to, you know, what what books are being banned in your community, right? And being

55:55a part of that discussion. And why, right? What what does this serve? So I recently just, you know,

56:03created a four part podcast series about Christian nationalism. And the last episode is looking at

56:09folks who are kind of on the front lines, right? They're citizens, they're just in their communities,

56:14and they see this stuff happening. And they're like, well, what do we do? And it tells the story

56:18of one couple in Texas who literally just started showing up, right? And just kind of raising the

56:23concern or voice of why are we doing this, right? Why are we trying to ban this book? Or why are we

56:29trying to only limit who can take part to these, you know, certain groups and in certain Christians,

56:34right? Not all Christians, but particular type. And so I think for people that want to see and

56:41learn more showing up and raising a voice, and at least showing that, you know, this isn't something

56:47that we want to take place or be a part of that helps make space for others, then, to also recognize

56:53this doesn't represent the country that I want to be a part of or the community I want to be a part

56:57of. So I think that's really important. And that's kind of like at the front edge of this, right?

57:02Democracy really is being attacked in various ways, whether it's January 6th and like literal

57:08attacks, or the more kind of nefarious and hidden, but ultimately more powerful, just suppressing the

57:15vote, right? Like, it's not on accident that I can go and vote on election day, and it takes me 20

57:21minutes. And then there's some counties in, you know, more urban areas, largely black populations,

57:27where it takes three, four hours, right? That's not, that's not by accident. That's on purpose. And so,

57:32we have mail-in voting here for years. And now they're just starting to say, maybe this isn't a

57:40good idea about mail-in voting. So yeah, yeah. So all those efforts, right, to suppress. And we

57:46see that historically. Like Paul Wierick was a person central to the religious right. And, you

57:52know, explicitly said in 1980, like, we don't want the voting population to go up. Like, the fewer

57:58people that vote, the better we do. And so that's been a part of the plan. And so I think recognizing

58:03that, whether you're Christian, religious minority, whether you're secular, right? That's something that

58:09if we want to live in a pluralistic democratic society, we have to be aware of. But then I think

58:16beyond that, kind of the long game, which we need to attend to. But if we only focus on this,

58:21democracy is probably going to slide away. So we got to keep our eye on the ball there. But I think

58:26the long game is, is too, for those who are secular, religious minority, or have left Christianity,

58:32learning, you know, how to help folks disentangle Christianity from Christian nationalism,

58:39that there, there is a difference. There are expressions of Christianity that they can move

58:44toward that don't embrace this cultural framework of power and fear and violence, and how that,

58:50you know, moves on from there. But then especially for Christians, I think that work has to take

58:56place. So for me, I still identifying as a Christian, I think, while, you know, that type of discussion,

59:04you know, is going to happen kind of between and among Christians, it's still important for

59:10Christians to speak up and say, you know, there are different expressions this, we should be moving

59:16in this direction, not embracing this cultural framework that has marginalized and oppressed

59:21people. And we need to listen to those voices, right? Those folks that have been on the margins

59:25or marginalized, you're trying to tell us this country doesn't work for me like it works for you.

59:31And I think Christians should care about that. But I think that's work that has to happen as well. So

59:37there's kind of a short and long game as I think about it. And so being able to do both,

59:43hopefully we can, but it does take folks just starting to learn more and starting to kind of

59:49be a part of those discussions in the broader public. I think that's a wonderful message. And I

59:54think you've done a wonderful job in American idolatry of getting that message across to those

60:01who are part of the in group who are Christians who maybe are outside Christian nationalism or

60:08maybe who are departing from it or becoming suspicious of the motivations of Christian nationalism.

60:14And that book's available now if you're interested in hearing more about this discussion. Highly

60:19recommend checking that book out as well as if you're interested in the more academic side of

60:24Christian nationalism. You and Sam Perry, who is another wonderful sociologist dealing with

60:29Christian nationalism nationalism published taking America back for God, Christian nationalism in

60:35the United States back in 2020. And another wonderful book that is critical if you want to draw a

60:42bead on what's going on with Christian nationalism. Well, Andrew Whitehead is this has been a wonderful

60:47discussion. You're going to stick around. So our patrons will get a little bit more of you. I think

60:53that's wonderful. Thank you so much for that. If our listeners want to find more of you, you

60:57mentioned a podcast, talk about where where people can go to seek you out. Yeah, definitely. I appreciate

61:04that. So I'm trying to, you know, find an exit strategy for Twitter because I think it really has

61:10just kind of changed and devolved. So, you know, I'm still there now kind of lurking, but I'm usually

61:16just pointing to other stuff. So they can still find me on there. But on Instagram, just started a

61:21substack, Andrew Whitehead. substack. And then the podcast is American idols. And so I recorded

61:29this and Brad Onishi, who does straight white American Jesus podcast help produce it. And so,

61:36yeah, it's a four part series and I think really helpful in breaking down what Christian nationalism

61:41is the threat it poses to democracy, the threat it poses to American Christianity. And then what

61:46do we do now? Where do we go from here? So hopefully that can help serve folks. So, yeah, love to,

61:52yeah, keep having the conversation. So thank you. Awesome. Thank you. Well,

61:57that's it for the show today. If you friends at home would like to write into us, you can do so

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